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cheesemouse
01-19-2005, 05:33 AM
There seem to be two major groups on these pool message boards; the feel and the technical schools. As a betting man I propose this proposition:

<two groups of ten novice players
<group 'A' gets 39 hours of classroom book learning on the principles of pocket billiards and one hour of table time per week for 52 weeks.
<group 'B' gets 39 hours of table time and one hour classroom book learning per week for 52 weeks.
<At the end of 52 weeks both groups are pitted against one another in a round robin team event in any one of three pocket billiard disciplines ( 14.1, 9-ball, 1-hole ) take your pick.

The question is: Who do you put your money to win this event???

I know it's tough but trying and stay on subject.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

pooltchr
01-19-2005, 05:50 AM
50 hours of instruction, and 2000 hours of practice vs 2000 hours of class room and 50 hours of practice.
I think the answer is pretty obvious.

If I could spend 50 hours a year with Randy or Scott and get 2000 hours of practice, I would be giving the 8 to almost anyone!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Steve

bomber
01-19-2005, 05:51 AM
I have to take the group with the table time...i feel that, however, both areas of study (on and off table) are good. I still like the group of ten that have been on the table if this is the only time they are allowed to practice. After the year, they will have only played a total of 52 hours of pool. They may know alot, but they havent honed their skills by physical practice. The other group have played a total of 2028 hours of pool and recieved a valuable 52 hours of book training. just my opinion

jjinfla
01-19-2005, 06:38 AM
I think the 50 vs 1 is out of line. Normal classroom college/University courses recommend 3 hours study per hour of classroom time.

Probably 4 hours in the morning for theory and 4 hours in the afternoon at the table would be more in line and more practical.

Anyway I would be glad to conduct this experiment with someone. But first we will have to apply for a grant from the Government. $250,000 should be just about right. No, maybe closer to $500,000.

Jake

GeraldG
01-19-2005, 07:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> I think the 50 vs 1 is out of line. Normal classroom college/University courses recommend 3 hours study per hour of classroom time.

Probably 4 hours in the morning for theory and 4 hours in the afternoon at the table would be more in line and more practical.

Anyway I would be glad to conduct this experiment with someone. But first we will have to apply for a grant from the Government. $250,000 should be just about right. No, maybe closer to $500,000.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

I'm in! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif When do we start?

Rich R.
01-19-2005, 07:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Anyway I would be glad to conduct this experiment with someone. But first we will have to apply for a grant from the Government. $250,000 should be just about right. No, maybe closer to $500,000. <hr /></blockquote>
The government has given grants to worse things.
Do the paperwork and see what happens. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

GeraldG
01-19-2005, 07:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Anyway I would be glad to conduct this experiment with someone. But first we will have to apply for a grant from the Government. $250,000 should be just about right. No, maybe closer to $500,000. <hr /></blockquote>
The government has given grants to worse things.
Do the paperwork and see what happens. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>


That's very true. I remember several years ago near Chattanooga, TN, there was a massive pile-up on the Interstate (I-75, I think), that involved over 100 cars. The fog was so thick and you came up on it so suddenly, there was no time to react. So, the Federal Government decided that a study was in order. They spent 3 years and nearly 3 million dollars in grants for some consultant group to study the wreck and find out why it happened. After all that time and money, they group came back with this finding:

Cause: Fog. The vehicles in front slowed down because the drivers couldn't see and vehicles coming up from behind collided with them.

It cost the taxpayers nearly 3 million dollars to secure that little piece of genius deduction. What the heck did they think the cause was? Aliens?

cheesemouse
01-19-2005, 07:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr>

I know it's tough but trying and stay on subject.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>


Hey!!! CONGRADULATIONS......you made it to the third reply before you went off on a tangent...this could be a record..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

SpiderMan
01-19-2005, 08:53 AM
No contest - rank beginners, regardless of the 2028 hours spent in class, are not going to shoot very well after allowed only 1 hour of table time per week. I'm assuming this table time is uncoached, and that the classroom is kept separate from the practice.

On the other hand, give me 52 hours of talking time and guarantee that someone will spend 2028 hours practicing, and they'll kick ass.

SpiderMan

Sid_Vicious
01-19-2005, 09:30 AM
I think I could take a 2-4 APA ranked player, teach them "nail down safety strategy" against other 2-4 speeds in an hour, and without much of any practice, they'd win more games than the practicing group(imo.) But given that these are purely attempting to improve their overall games, the practicing group would gather more memory for shots than the studious people. Smart pool beats a lot of semi raw players all to heck though...sid

LARRY_BOY
01-19-2005, 09:44 AM
B.......

Jude_Rosenstock
01-19-2005, 11:03 AM
This is like asking someone who has an advanced degree in the physics of gravity and a baseball player to determine the precise landing point of a fly ball. They're both going to come up with the right answer only the ballplayer is going to figure it out BEFORE the ball drops.


Jude M. Rosenstock

bomber
01-19-2005, 12:28 PM
I cant believe this is getting so much debate: I would propose this bet to anyone who thinks the classroom people would win...lets imagine that i have never played golf and neither have you (neither of us ever even picked up a club) and i got 2000 hours of practice outside and 52 hours of classroom instruction and you got 2000 hours of classroom and 52 hours of golf, i will bet ANY amount that i would win. the pool game would be no different. it takes a whole lot more than a crap load of book study to be good. Im not saying that the 2000 hours of table time would make you great, but it would be enough to beat the guy who recieved the 2000 in classroom. (if all things are equal: 1. complete novices (never picked up a cue) 2. the 40 hours is the only time they can study the game)

GeraldG
01-19-2005, 01:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> I cant believe this is getting so much debate: I would propose this bet to anyone who thinks the classroom people would win...lets imagine that i have never played golf and neither have you (neither of us ever even picked up a club) and i got 2000 hours of practice outside and 52 hours of classroom instruction and you got 2000 hours of classroom and 52 hours of golf, i will bet ANY amount that i would win. the pool game would be no different. it takes a whole lot more than a crap load of book study to be good. Im not saying that the 2000 hours of table time would make you great, but it would be enough to beat the guy who recieved the 2000 in classroom. (if all things are equal: 1. complete novices (never picked up a cue) 2. the 40 hours is the only time they can study the game) <hr /></blockquote>

I'm with Bomber on this. There is no comparison.

Jude_Rosenstock
01-19-2005, 01:08 PM
Bomber, I agree as well which is precisely the point I made. The fact is, there numerous shots you simply can't manufacture until you've seen it done. It's as simple as pretending to be something you've seen versus pretending to be something you've read about. You pick up so many subtle details just by experience that even the best writer could never put to paper.


Jude M. Rosenstock

SPetty
01-19-2005, 01:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> On the other hand, give me 52 hours of talking time and guarantee that someone will spend 2028 hours practicing, and they'll kick ass.<hr /></blockquote>I'd like to take you up on that... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Scott Lee
01-19-2005, 05:05 PM
Cheese...39-1 is not a realistic approach to your experiment (I know you were kinda tongue-in-cheek here)!
However, if you give the students 1-2 hours per day of table time, along with the resultant 26-33 hours of class (which would be a LOT of class), the students would wipe the floor with the "player" group, at the end of the experiment. As an instructor involved with this kind of exposure, let me give you an example that many others here can substanciate.

When we do our 3-day pool schools (which are intensive 8 hours a day, for all three days), the students all start out with a few minutes on the table, and then substancial time in the classroom. As the day goes on, the students will go back out periodically, to practice what we teach them...but only for short periods of focused attention to detail. Each day, out of 8 hours, they may get between one and two hours of actual time on the table, working on what they are learning in class. At the end of the 3 days, they go home with a varitable wealth of personalized information, and a PROGRAM of how to apply it, with disciplined practice, over the next few weeks. Given these parameters, I would BET that my group would outplay the beginners just shooting balls...and not just outplay them, but SMOKE them, in competitive situations. Why? Because in addition to 'technical' advice, we also teach them strategy, and how to deal with emotional ups and downs.
When they learn a predictable, repeatable, and sustainable stroke, confidence soars, and more consistent successful application takes the place of random success (which will be all the 'shooters' can hope to achieve). BTW, we teach them the "feel" aspect of the game too! LOL Sight, sound, and 'feel'...you use them all, at the same time!

Scott Lee

randyg
01-19-2005, 06:35 PM
Go Scott go...you tell them like it is.....SPF..randyg

wolfdancer
01-19-2005, 07:05 PM
Actually Jude, I think a degree in ballistics, might be more helpful in figuring out where the ball will land. I think Willie Mays had a Doctorate.....Still I'm not sure how a dog can catch a Frisbee...which defies the laws of aerodynamics

wolfdancer
01-19-2005, 07:10 PM
Cause: Fog. The vehicles in front slowed down because the drivers couldn't see and vehicles coming up from behind collided with them.

It may have taken that long because they probably used local talent to "Scope" that out...

GeraldG
01-19-2005, 08:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Cheese...39-1 is not a realistic approach to your experiment (I know you were kinda tongue-in-cheek here)!
However, if you give the students 1-2 hours per day of table time, along with the resultant 26-33 hours of class (which would be a LOT of class), the students would wipe the floor with the "player" group, at the end of the experiment. As an instructor involved with this kind of exposure, let me give you an example that many others here can substanciate.

When we do our 3-day pool schools (which are intensive 8 hours a day, for all three days), the students all start out with a few minutes on the table, and then substancial time in the classroom. As the day goes on, the students will go back out periodically, to practice what we teach them...but only for short periods of focused attention to detail. Each day, out of 8 hours, they may get between one and two hours of actual time on the table, working on what they are learning in class. At the end of the 3 days, they go home with a varitable wealth of personalized information, and a PROGRAM of how to apply it, with disciplined practice, over the next few weeks. Given these parameters, I would BET that my group would outplay the beginners just shooting balls...and not just outplay them, but SMOKE them, in competitive situations. Why? Because in addition to 'technical' advice, we also teach them strategy, and how to deal with emotional ups and downs.
When they learn a predictable, repeatable, and sustainable stroke, confidence soars, and more consistent successful application takes the place of random success (which will be all the 'shooters' can hope to achieve). BTW, we teach them the "feel" aspect of the game too! LOL Sight, sound, and 'feel'...you use them all, at the same time!

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>


That I can buy.

paulfr
01-19-2005, 08:30 PM
Scott makes a good point. Stated another way, it depends.
That is that this question of which is more valuable, table time or classroom time is the wrong question.
For the right length of time and the right ratios, the
students will win and visa versa. So they are both extremely valuable.

Say for example, we had beginners who are past learning a stance, aiming and stroke, the group with 1 hour of classroom and one hour of table time would destroy the group with only 2 hours of table time. I think the same would be true at 20:20 vs say 1:40 (class:table). But at 2000:2000 vs 100:4000 I would take the table group.
There is a point of diminsihing returns on learning via classroom that can only be made up on the table.

I think the big advantage of theory and classroom learning is that it should reduce the time to go from novice to highly advanced by many years/hours.
So for the oldtime experts there will be a natural envy that modern billiard theory development has made the dues to enter the expert class much shorter in terms of time.

cheesemouse
01-20-2005, 05:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
(I know you were kinda tongue-in-cheek here)!
<hr /></blockquote>

Scott,

You'll notice in the original post that I just made the proposition and tried not to fall on one side or the other. Now you may have busted me with your tongue in check statement, having never met in person, I think it's spooky you can read my mind. Perhaps this mind reading skill is one of the many talents you pocess that aids you in your excellent pool instructions...I have to totally respect anyone who can jump in a car with nothing but a cell phone, a video camera, a laptop, a pool cue, a nice set of threads, an atlas, a passion for the game, boundless energy and then make a living with these set of tools. I salute you sir...

Now back to the orginal question reduced down to just one week of 39-1, I think the question answers itself given the novice factor. I would have to fall with the group that hit the most balls. Shaving for the first time comes to mind. Mind you this is with a razor, no electricity allowed...LOL. While waiting for the cuts to heal I find it hard to believe sitting in a shaving class would improve my skills in the second attempt.

Given that we are unlikely to get a government grant to actually do a double blind test of the group 'A' group 'B' with a round robin event at the end I would have to look at the next best thing. I would take a poll of the best 100 players in the world and ask them "from which group have you sprung?" Heck, I would just ask you and Randy. From where do your skills spring???

JimS
01-20-2005, 06:07 AM
I think a glut of information in the beginning, provided by expert teachers, would shorten the learning curve...allowing for skipping over the hundred or so hours of mistake making one must endure when learning on one's own at the table with a roll of quarters and a buddy who "plays good" showing them how.

DickLeonard
01-20-2005, 06:27 AM
Gerald was Tennesee a Red State or a Blue State?####

pooltchr
01-20-2005, 07:13 AM
Randy and Scott. I think the original post was one hour vs 39 per week for one year. I would equate that to spending 6 days in class (two full 3 day sessions) and over 2000 hours of practice time in that year. I think anyone that completed both the advanced and expert course and logged 2000 hours practicing the things they learn in those classes over a one year period is going to be an awfully strong player.
Just another way of looking at it.
Steve

GeraldG
01-20-2005, 07:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Gerald was Tennesee a Red State or a Blue State?#### <hr /></blockquote>

I guess I must have missed something. Red or blue?

Scott Lee
01-20-2005, 02:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr>
Scott,

You'll notice in the original post that I just made the proposition and tried not to fall on one side or the other. Now you may have busted me with your tongue in check statement, having never met in person, I think it's spooky you can read my mind. Perhaps this mind reading skill is one of the many talents you pocess that aids you in your excellent pool instructions...I have to totally respect anyone who can jump in a car with nothing but a cell phone, a video camera, a laptop, a pool cue, a nice set of threads, an atlas, a passion for the game, boundless energy and then make a living with these set of tools. I salute you sir...

Given that we are unlikely to get a government grant to actually do a double blind test of the group 'A' group 'B' with a round robin event at the end I would have to look at the next best thing. I would take a poll of the best 100 players in the world and ask them "from which group have you sprung?" Heck, I would just ask you and Randy. From where do your skills spring??? <hr /></blockquote>

Cheese...

I can tell you one thing...BOTH of us are playing the best pool of our lives right now, even after decades of playing.
Why? Continued education, and skill improvement based on teaching others full time. The learning pyramid says you retain 95% of what you teach others...so as long as that is good, up-to-date information, there is no way we cannot continue to improve for the rest of our lives! For me, personally(way back in 1971), I took professional lessons (2hrs. 2x/week, for 3 months in the summer, for 2 years). That helped me to establish a lot of solid fundamentals, and great mechanical skills. Then I honed my actual play with tournaments and gambling. I turned "pro" 4 yrs. after I hit my first ball ever! LOL...that has to be the exception, not the rule!

BTW, thanks for the nice compliment, and we WILL meet...in fact likely quite soon! I'll PM ya with the details! I am VERY lucky to be SO in love with pool...it is my hobby, my passion, and quite fortunately, my very lucrative job... that I cannot WAIT to get up in the morning and go to! LOL

Scott /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
01-20-2005, 10:24 PM
Confederate or Union? I can't remember. It's a toss up but I'm thinking it was Union.

HTH

GeraldG
01-21-2005, 05:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Confederate or Union? I can't remember. It's a toss up but I'm thinking it was Union.

HTH <hr /></blockquote>

Oh...no, Tennessee was definitely Confederate. The Mason-Dixon Line is up around Baltimore, I think. Everything south of there was Confederate. That would be Blue or Gray though, right? Not Blue or Red.

Scott Lee
01-21-2005, 10:36 AM
Geez you guys...don't you watch the news? LOL Mr. Leonard was talking about Republican or Democrat! LMAO

Scott

Fred Agnir
01-21-2005, 11:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> There seem to be two major groups on these pool message boards; the feel and the technical schools. <hr /></blockquote>I've never heard this before. Feel vs. mechanical I've heard, but not feel vs. technical.

Fred

dr_dave
01-21-2005, 12:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr>There seem to be two major groups on these pool message boards; the feel and the technical schools. As a betting man I propose this proposition:

&lt;two groups of ten novice players
&lt;group 'A' gets 39 hours of classroom book learning on the principles of pocket billiards and one hour of table time per week for 52 weeks.
&lt;group 'B' gets 39 hours of table time and one hour classroom book learning per week for 52 weeks.
&lt;At the end of 52 weeks both groups are pitted against one another in a round robin team event in any one of three pocket billiard disciplines ( 14.1, 9-ball, 1-hole ) take your pick.

The question is: Who do you put your money to win this event???<hr /></blockquote>
This question is obviously a no-brainer. Nothing is more important than practice and experience.

A better question that might create a more interesting debate is:
If players A and B practice 1 hour each day, and player A never reads a book and plays strictly by feel, and player B reads many books and articles and has a complete understanding of all pool principles, how badly would you expect player B to beat player A?

To me, intuition and feel are critically important to being a good player, but knowledge and understanding can help build stronger intuition and feel. I don't see it as one camp (the "feelers") vs. another (the "thinkers"). I think it is good to both "feel" and "think."

wolfdancer
01-21-2005, 03:41 PM
The proposition is preposturous...
2028 hours of classroom instruction on the principles of pocket billiards....and 52 hours, each hour spaced one week apart, to
learn the neuromuscular kinesthetics, or kinesthesia to be able to apply the teachings to a real life situation.
I don't think there is an instructor out there, not even a PHD, that has 2028 hrs of pool theory, to pass on to his students. In fact, throughout history...thar ain't ben 2000 hours of book read'ng to larn on pool
While there are many players that learned how to play great pool, without ever reading a book on the subject, I dare say no one has ever become a great player, from reading a book, and minimal playing time.
I could read all the books on walking on a balance beam, but until I spent hours on the apparatus, I'd fall on my a$$, just like the theoretical "theory" group would do, against the playing group.
Now what if one group practised shooting long shots on the diagonal for one hour, while group "B" imagined they were shooting the same shot......I imagine, I'd put the milk money on group "A"