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View Full Version : Salute/pendullum stroke vs Piston stroke revisited



Cueless Joey
01-19-2005, 03:31 PM
I dunno if these points are valid but I'm gonna spew them anyway. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Scott has been PM'ng me some tips for about $1 per word.
He's converting me from a lifelong piston elbow dropper death grip hacker to salute stroker.
Here are some things I think worth mentioning whether valid or not. But don't lynch me.
With salute stroke, the follow is really the same on almost every shot except the acceleration.
With the salute stroke, I am forced to line up the collarbone to the line of the shot because the "grip" hand ends up there on the follow thru.
I don't THINK backhand english( moving the grip hand) is a good idea with the salute stroke b/c you have to shift your grip and your grip might not be lined-up with the collarbone anymore when doing b.h.e.
It helps to have a stiff/heavier cue with the salute stroke because the weight of the forearm isn't really utitilized much.
With the salute stroke, you don't tense up at the end of the stroke if done right. I thinkg piston-strokers MIGHT be guilty of that.

Jude_Rosenstock
01-19-2005, 03:55 PM
With all due respect, you think an aweful lot about things most players NEVER consider. I cannot possibly imagine any of the great players of our day taking a moment of time to consider such things. Don't get me wrong, they know where their elbows are and how they move but I don't think they think about how it might help or hinder their game.

If I were you, I'd read the book The Inner Game of Tennis. Find it. Buy it. Don't look back. All you have to do is substitute all the tennis references for pool and it'll all make perfect sense.

I'm dead-serious. You really sound like you're not focused. This book should really help.


Jude M. Rosenstock

Scott Lee
01-19-2005, 04:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> With all due respect, you think an aweful lot about things most players NEVER consider. I cannot possibly imagine any of the great players of our day taking a moment of time to consider such things. Don't get me wrong, they know where their elbows are and how they move but I don't think they think about how it might help or hinder their game.

If I were you, I'd read the book The Inner Game of Tennis. Find it. Buy it. Don't look back. All you have to do is substitute all the tennis references for pool and it'll all make perfect sense.

I'm dead-serious. You really sound like you're not focused. This book should really help.


Jude M. Rosenstock <hr /></blockquote>

Jude...With all due respect, GREAT players (like Karen Corr, Alison Fisher, Gerda Hofstater, Jeremy Jones, Gabe Owen, and many others) have ALL been to poolschool to learn this kind of stroke...among many other things. The REASON you learn it, is so you don't HAVE to think about it. It becomes "rote", and replaces the inconsistent, irregular stroke that you find with lots of other GREAT players! Remember, take 100 pros and examine their strokes, and you'll have 100 different ways of getting the job done. We just look at efficiency of movement, and teach those that want to learn, how to maximize that efficiency, into an accurate, predictable, and repeatable motion. I want to teach things that ANYONE can learn, and EVERYONE can master...given certain perameters...not something only a few people can do!

BTW...The Inner Game of Tennis is an excellent book!

Scott Lee ~ a set,pause,finish enthusiast

Jimmy Mendoza
01-19-2005, 04:57 PM
What's a salute stroke? I'm not being sarcastic. I really don't know what it is.

JimS
01-19-2005, 05:36 PM
I've not heard of the salute stroke either but I"ll venture a guess that it relates to stroking from the elbow down only...no shoulder movement.

This results in the pendelum stroke as opposed to the piston stroke.

In the past I thought that the piston stroke was more accurate and predictable on short or soft shots but I'm learning to use the pendelum stroke.

I get more cue ball action with more accuracy when using the pendelum stroke. I'm working on the pendelum stroke and have found that it seems to me that the secret lies in getting the body alinged properly which means more dependence on doing a good job of aiming while standing behind the shot.

When done properly it feels extremely solid and deadly accurate. When I get alinged right I "feel" it.... I KNOW that I can't miss this shot. The shot seems to have more power behind it...solid. I'm working 3 to 5 hours a day on getting my mind and body habituated so that this whole "process" is rote....starting with the square stance behind the cb looking into the shot, to my move into the shooting position to the follow through and mental note of where the tip ended up.

I took a lesson from Mark Wilson and it sounds like he, Scott and Randy G are all on the same page. The major key for me was getting the back hand elbow out away from my body and straightening the bridge arm.

Scott Lee
01-19-2005, 05:59 PM
Jim...You got it. The pendulum swing is the same movement, start to finish, as an American military salute...only it's underhand. BTW, the pendulum stroke is FAR more accurate, and easy to control, with the soft shots too (especially finesse shots), than the piston stroke.I'll show you that next time I see ya! LOL

Scott

JimS
01-19-2005, 06:01 PM
I mis-worded my post Scott. See above. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jude_Rosenstock
01-19-2005, 06:10 PM
Hey Scott,

I'm not arguing with you. The end result is definately positive but the approach is what I question. I've seen countless students of the game turn to look at their elbow while they're down on a shot. It's an aweful lot for a student to think about. I know that you'll argue that this is only to be done in practice but the problem with that theory is that you're practicing thinking about your elbow.

When people dance, they get a visual image of what they intend to achieve and their body just falls into place. What this person needs is a visual image of the entire picture, not just of his elbow. There are a lot of things that go into pool just like there are a lot of things that go into dancing. Ever see anyone who danced well yet needed to look at their feet?

My suggestion, which stems from the book I mentioned, is that he somehow find a player he admires that he can watch. After witnessing this player's game for an hour or so, have him "act" like this player, immitating him as much as possible.

What's bizarre is, most of the time I've instructed people to do just that, they've corrected flaws in their mechanics they weren't even aware of. It would be foolish to suggest what Karen Corr does is wrong and I want you to know, I never said that. What I am saying is that catagorizing common problems that occur in mechanics, isolating them and trying to correct them individually may be counter-productive.

The student needs to have a mental picture of the end result. They need to have a complete goal. If you haven't read The Inner Game of Tennis, I strongly recommend it. Although it isn't about pool, it teaches a style to learning sports that could only be compared to a child's way of learning.


Jude M. Rosenstock

Cueless Joey
01-19-2005, 09:14 PM
Thanks for sharing Jim.
Btw, Scott did not charge me $1 per word on his PM's.
Thanks Scott.
See you here in May.

Scott Lee
01-20-2005, 04:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Btw, Scott did not charge me $1 per word on his PM's.
Thanks Scott.
See you here in May. <hr /></blockquote>

Joey...Happy to oblige. You're correct, of course...it's now $2 a word! Your credit card has been charged! LOL

Scott /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee
01-20-2005, 05:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> Ever see anyone who danced well yet needed to look at their feet?<hr /></blockquote>

Jude...Ever seen someone LEARNING to dance? They look at their feet a LOT! I think we're splitting hairs here, but part of the process of learning, involves certain physical actions that cement other processes in the brain. Looking at the elbow in the 'freeze' position (which is after the stroke finishes, and is an evaluation procedure), is the best way to reinforce that everything is where it should be. Again, we don't play like we practice, and this 'looking at the elbow' goes away after a short period of reinforcement practice education. I agree that watching someone with good fundamentals, and trying to imitate them is a good idea. Unfortunately, it is difficult to know who to watch. Many pros have terrible fundamentals and mechanics, but make the ball anyway (and get position). I have read the book...good book.

Scott

Vagabond
01-20-2005, 05:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Many pros have terrible fundamentals and mechanics, but make the ball anyway (and get position).

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

Howdy Scott,
If goals are accomplished with different routes,how can one defend the Pendulum stroke as one and only stroke to be used.I have been strugling with this question for many years.Cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

JimS
01-20-2005, 05:57 AM
IMO.......

the pendulum stroke is an easy to learn, easy to replicate and very accurate stroke that tends to take much of the "miss" out of shooting. Therefore it's probably the best one to teach as results will be more favorable across the spectrum of students that Scott and others will work with. I would think that the more "home grown" type of stroke, the one that works for the individual, takes either exceptional talent or extra-thousands of hours at the table or both. That's my take on it anyway.

Seems like some stroke or another has to be decided upon as the one to teach...at least for now..until something else better comes along. This technique is the best, at this time and place...but that may change. Why I have even heard that somebody named Scott Lee sometimes looks at the object ball last these days. But I don't know if I believe it. Nah...not very likely I say. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

randyg
01-20-2005, 06:29 AM
JIMS: Even old dogs can learn new tricks. One of the many things that endears me to Scott is his ability to shed the "Old School" tradition. Scott has improved not only his teachings but his personal game using the SET-PAUSE-FINISH foundation.

Although there are several times we may want to look at the cue ball last, we normally look where we throw......SPF-randyg

DavidMorris
01-20-2005, 06:49 AM
Like JimS said, sound fundamentals are the easiest to teach and learn. Lots of pool players and golfers have very unorthodox techniques that would be a nightmare to try to teach to a beginner so that it could be executed with consistency. It works for the pro with the bad form, but that doesn't justify the form as universal or working for everybody. Starting with the basic, well-established fundamentals will produce the best and most consistent results across the board. Those rare few who have the natural talent to play beyond the orthodox will quickly adapt their technique from that basic starting point anyway, but the rest of us will benefit from the more consistent approach of established fundamentals.

I'd played for 20+ years without any formal instruction, aside from reading every pool book I could get my hands on. I was an on-again/off-again player, very inconsistent -- I could shoot the lights out this week and next week couldn't run 3 balls. After spending a day with Scott Lee a couple years ago he immediately spotted and corrected two fundamental flaws I had -- no consistent pre-shot routine, and my bridge length was too long so I wasn't following through, causing me to shoot too hard trying to get CB action. I was poking at the CB. My game almost immediately went up a couple notches after working on this change. If I had been an A player or a pro with my bad technique, I'm sure Scott would not have tried to change it, but he saw a difficiency in my game that boiled down to established fundamentals, and upon adopting those fundamentals my game immediately improved. THAT is why those textbook fundamentals are so important.

If you watch Julie Kelly, she has one of the worst stroke techniques I've ever seen beyond a beginner, a very abrupt poke stroke, almost a short stabbing motion, and she snaps the cue back on a lot of shots. While it works for her, wouldn't you cringe seeing that technique taught to a new player?

pooltchr
01-20-2005, 07:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> What I am saying is that catagorizing common problems that occur in mechanics, isolating them and trying to correct them individually may be counter-productive.

Jude M. Rosenstock <hr /></blockquote>

Isolating common problems is the only way I know of to address them and make the necessary adjustments. If my problem is my grip, don't mess with my stroke.

Most of my students (and I suspect Randy's Scotts, and others as well) are looking for consistency in their game. What we teach is an easily learned, and easily repeatable series of motions that bring that consistency. If you do the same thing every time, you will get the same results every time.

I have had many students develop a consistant routine from start to finish, and seen dramatic improvement in their game as a result. It's hard to argue with success, and the SPF program has helped many players improve. (I include myself in that group!)

Also, by isolating the different parts of the shooting process, it becomes easier for the player to do some self evaluation. For those times when your game may not be at it's best, it's nice to be able to figure out what the exact problem might be, and correct it.

Steve

woody_968
01-20-2005, 09:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DavidMorris:</font><hr> It works for the pro with the bad form, but that doesn't justify the form as universal or working for everybody. <hr /></blockquote>

Not only is the bad form something that wouldnt be taught, does the form keep the pro from being even better? Its possible that some of the pro's would play even stronger than they do if they didnt have some of the bad habbits they play with. True, they could play worse if changed, but it would be interesting to find out /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Reggie Miller is a good example of performs with bad form but teaches differently. He does not teach the way he shoots in clinics because he knows its not the best way to play. But he has been one of the greatest 3pt shooters in the game.

Something tells me this is one of those subjects that could be beat to death /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

woody_968
01-20-2005, 09:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>
we normally look where we throw......SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

This is a good point, but when throwing a ball the ball is in our hand so we look at the target. In pool the cue is in our hand, so the actual target we are throwing the cue at is the cueball.

Dont get me wrong, I look at the OB in most cases and will continue to do so. But in my research I am beggining to question the importance of looking at the OB last for an accomplished player.

I fully believe a knew player should look at the OB as I feel this would help in the learning process. But once someone knows how to aim I think accurately striking the cueball becomes more and more important.

I would love to hear from Scott on this subject if he has changed and see if he feels it has helped him. You out there Scott? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Not trying to disagree with you Randy, just wanting to pick the brain of you and some of the other instructors for my own personal gain /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

randyg
01-20-2005, 10:10 AM
WOODY: Generally I might agree that it doesn't make any difference where you look last. We might even learn to play well with our eyes closed. BUT, the "normal" human mind and instincts won't let that happen very long. Yes it is instinctive to look at our target before throwing, and our hands go to where our eyes are looking. In pool, the target is the object ball. Our cueball just gets in the way of a perfect stroke.

Most commonly those players that look at the cueball last really have their eyes already in "Transition". The brain wants too "see" what is happening. We can't help it. Eyes in transition could prove to be very dangerous.

Once one has read and understood the "Quiet Eye Study", all this makes more sense, common that is. Let's hear from Scott......SPF-randyg

Scott Lee
01-20-2005, 02:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>
we normally look where we throw......SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

This is a good point, but when throwing a ball the ball is in our hand so we look at the target. In pool the cue is in our hand, so the actual target we are throwing the cue at is the cueball.

Dont get me wrong, I look at the OB in most cases and will continue to do so. But in my research I am beggining to question the importance of looking at the OB last for an accomplished player.

I fully believe a knew player should look at the OB as I feel this would help in the learning process. But once someone knows how to aim I think accurately striking the cueball becomes more and more important.

I would love to hear from Scott on this subject if he has changed and see if he feels it has helped him. You out there Scott? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Not trying to disagree with you Randy, just wanting to pick the brain of you and some of the other instructors for my own personal gain /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Darrell...Randy and I had a good-hearted discussion about this just last weekend. Randy's arguement that a perfect stroke goes from point A to Point B, and the CB just happens to be in the way, is extremely valid. On that basis alone, I have to re-establish new teaching parameters.

I learned to play 35 yrs ago, looking at the OB, and played that way for almost 20 yrs. Then I taught myself to look at the CB, based on Jack White's teaching, and it became the way I played and taught...successfully both ways. I am now trying to keep an open mind, and look at both ways. Curiously, I looked the CB last night, while playing a competitive match (for dinner) with one of my top students (an A player), and I played lights out...as did he...and the match went hill/hill, with me winning the last game. Last weekend I tried to concentrate on OB last, and played good on some shots and not so good on others (haven't reprogrammed my mind yet!). However, my pre-shot routine is SOOO solid (with spf), that I'm still not convinced it makes a ton of difference (for ME). What made a HUGE difference, imo, is the change in P.E.P. (for those who don't know what this is...PEP stands for Personal Eye Pattern movement, based on the U. of FL 'Quiet Eye' study). Absolutely no question that I will be concentrating on this with my new students, as well as followup instruction with current students. I will be teaching OB last to most students, on most shots...but for myself, the verdict is still out! LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Ok Randy?

Scott

wolfdancer
01-20-2005, 02:30 PM
Scott, being on SS, and trying to finance both a drug and alcohol dependency....I can only afford about $.25 a word
....I once thought that throwing darts might be a good
way to practice an "upside-down" pool stroke....and bought a dart board to test out my theory. Unfortunately the time between innings, in darts, does not give one time to do justice to one's drink...Somewhere now there is a Goodwill recipient, probably using the dart board to hang notes on.
So, give me your two-bits worth....If I bought a dart board, with Presidents face pictured on it, would it help my pool game if I threw darts at it? or should I just blast it with my shotgun?

moondawggy73
01-20-2005, 02:58 PM
You all have a lot of great ideas concerning the stroke. Thank-You.!

I believe in order to add something to your routine you must consciously go through the motion slowly and visualize what is happining almost in slow motion, releasing the essence of the shot. Once the effort is duplicated in repetition, then, it can slowly evolve into unconsous effort, helping you to see everything in the big picture. Focal point is the key, dont worry about the past or future while down on the stroke it this happens restart and stay in the moment and relax and enjoy the game. I cant MAKE myself play well or my best, I must ALLOW it. "Use the force Luke" LOL!

I teach at the local pool hall sometimes, although uncertified, I love the game and have read many books and played tournements mostly. Im a student of the game, only sharing my experience.

Im new to this site and would appreciate feedback, thanks again!

Tom

Keith Talent
01-20-2005, 04:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> Hey Scott,

I've seen countless students of the game turn to look at their elbow while they're down on a shot. It's an aweful lot for a student to think about. I know that you'll argue that this is only to be done in practice but the problem with that theory is that you're practicing thinking about your elbow.

Jude M. Rosenstock <hr /></blockquote>

Jude, I think this is just a stage a student must go through while trying to groove that new stroke he's learned.

I took a lesson with Scott last month and he told me -- and the tape confirmed, painfully -- that I had a funky arm angle, and that even with what I thought was a solid follow-through, I wasn't really finishing my stroke.

So for the past few weeks I've been looking a whole lot at that misbehaving elbow, trying different alignments to try to get that piston stroke in line. And also coming up with some ugly, mechanical strokes in working on the finish.

I'm sure it was painful to watch, and I felt plenty frustrated with it, because it seemed whenever I looked back everything was out of line and most of my shots felt stiff and unnatural.

But a couple of weeks later, it started feeling less strange, and last night, I think I only checked it twice. It feels about normal now, maybe next week it'll feel good! And I am seeing real improvement in consistency, both in pocketing and speed control.

woody_968
01-20-2005, 06:39 PM
I would be interested to hear more after you have played around with it for a while Scott. Like I said, I have always been (and will probably always be) one that has looked at the OB last. Just trying to keep an open mind and learn what works for different people to help me communicate with people when I start to teach.

I have read the "quiet eye" study and have worked alot on my patterns. It has really helped my game. I was reading one of my books the other day, I think it was one of Capelle's, and it brought up something I had never thought about. He said when someone is working to slow down their stroke it is good to slow down the speed of their eye patterns. After experimenting with this I must say that I think this is something worth talking about with students.

Looking forward to hearing more later.

Darren

Rod
01-20-2005, 09:30 PM
Joey there isn't any help for you, your done for! LOL Probably not for me either. At least my elbow drops after the c/b is struck though. I'll never change, that's not because I'm unwilling. It's because of my style of play. Typical players now have there cue either on their chin or very close. Hell the cue is easily over a foot from mine.

I asked Steve this question, maybe he didn't see it but Scott or Randy feel free to chime in. Does't finish in the salute position have to be for players that really bend down over a ball? Not only that but it seems you need "some" speed to finish with you hand comming up that high. What I'm saying is most shot's, well that is if you play decent position, don't need the big follow through.

How do you teach that aspect? Not really how but when/where that sort of thing. Obviously, to me, it isn't needed, I'd say 50% of the time as a guess. Scott you've seen me play, you know I'd break my arm getting my hand to my chest. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif That's a long ways up for me, and I ain't bending over. LOL

I like the concept but as usual it won't work for everyone. While i'm thinking of it, I'm thinking of two or three day classes. It can be put on by pro's or a pool school. Not everyone that attends can benefit from certain types of teaching. Although they will learn something, their money could be better spent by private instruction. I guess though, at a certain level those players get much more selective.

Rod

Cueless Joey
01-20-2005, 10:11 PM
Rod,
I'm slowly growing to it. I sent some pics of my preshot and post-shot form to Scott for him to critique. I'm liking the results very much.

pooltchr
01-21-2005, 05:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> I asked Steve this question, maybe he didn't see it but Scott or Randy feel free to chime in. Does't finish in the salute position have to be for players that really bend down over a ball? Not only that but it seems you need "some" speed to finish with you hand comming up that high. What I'm saying is most shot's, well that is if you play decent position, don't need the big follow through.
<font color="blue"> I am about 6 to 8 inches above the cue, and still use this stroke. I would not try to force anyone to try to get all the way to an uncomfortable finish position, but I still would encourage a complete stroke which does include "follow through". (I don't really like that term because I agree with Randy that you just finish your stroke..the cue ball just gets in the way. It also gets out of the way while finishing) </font color>
How do you teach that aspect? Not really how but when/where that sort of thing. Obviously, to me, it isn't needed, I'd say 50% of the time as a guess. Scott you've seen me play, you know I'd break my arm getting my hand to my chest. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <font color="blue"> My hand doesn't get to my chest, my wrist gets to my ribs...but it gets to the same spot every time </font color> That's a long ways up for me, and I ain't bending over. LOL

I like the concept but as usual it won't work for everyone. While i'm thinking of it, I'm thinking of two or three day classes. It can be put on by pro's or a pool school. Not everyone that attends can benefit from certain types of teaching. Although they will learn something, their money could be better spent by private instruction. I guess though, at a certain level those players get much more selective.

<font color="blue"> I honestly believe almost every player could benefit from attending Randy's 3 day course. There is so much individual attention given to students that it is almost like having one on one instruction. When I attended his class, at no time was any student at the table without an instructor standing next to them observing and coaching. There was a one-to-one student/instructor ratio the entire 3 days. </font color>

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

stickman
01-21-2005, 08:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Joey there isn't any help for you, your done for! LOL Probably not for me either. At least my elbow drops after the c/b is struck though. I'll never change, that's not because I'm unwilling. It's because of my style of play. Typical players now have there cue either on their chin or very close. Hell the cue is easily over a foot from mine.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

My elbow must drop at the end of my stroke. I don't think about these things when I'm shooting, but I know I don't finish my stroke with the tip on the table surface very often. As I understand it, a true pendullum stroke finishes with the tip on the table surface. I'd have to say mine is a modified pendullum. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif It's hard to teach old dogs new tricks. I watch all the televised pro matches I can, but I have to say I see very few strokes finish with the tip on the surface. Maybe 1 in 25, if that high. There's probably no hope for me either, Rod. LOL

I probably get down lower than you, but I can't put the cue on my chin. Heck, if I put my cue on my chin, the arthritus in my neck won't let me turn up enough to see the ball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Last night playing league, my back was hurting, so I wasn't very low. I stopped using Bextra for my arthritus, and my naproxen doesn't work so good. Speaking of strokes: I had mine 7 months after I started using Bextra. Yep, I'm on the list. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Maybe in 4 or 5 years they'll buy me a pool table.

When my stroke gets a little rough, I work with my stroke trainer. Doug Carter's little invention does the trick for me.

Scott Lee
01-21-2005, 10:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr>
Darren <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I was close!

Scott

Scott Lee
01-21-2005, 10:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Hell the cue is easily over a foot from mine.

Scott: <font color="blue"> </font color> Mine too, on lots of shots! <font color="blue"> </font color>

I asked Steve this question, maybe he didn't see it but Scott or Randy feel free to chime in. Does't finish in the salute position have to be for players that really bend down over a ball? Not only that but it seems you need "some" speed to finish with you hand comming up that high. What I'm saying is most shot's, well that is if you play decent position, don't need the big follow through.

Scott:<font color="blue"> </font color> No, the pendulum stroke does NOT require you to bend low over the cue. It is merely a complete range of motion, using only the forearm. If your elbow drops, you're moving from the shoulder. All strokes begin at zero, and accelerate through to each player's "natural" finish position. This may be with your grip hand in your armpit or not, as long as you complete the swing to a natural conclusion (no muscle interruption of the swing).<font color="blue"> </font color>

How do you teach that aspect? Not really how but when/where that sort of thing.

Scott:<font color="blue"> </font color> It's quite easy actually! Most people adapt to this kind of stroke very quickly. <font color="blue"> </font color>

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

DavidMorris
01-21-2005, 12:03 PM
My chin is probably a good 6-8 inches from my cue at least, and I have a natural "salute" swing. I'm 6'2 with long legs, so to put my chin on the cue would probably require a 90+ degree bend at the waist -- my poor old back definitely couldn't take it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif But my elbow is rock stable, and my grip hand slaps my chest right in the nipple area at the end of my swing, and my cue tip does end up on or very near the cloth provided my bridge distance isn't so long as to abbreviate my follow-through.

Cane
01-21-2005, 12:59 PM
I know another player that can't bend over very well... one of RandyG's instructors. He has a perfect pendulum stroke! His finish is in mid air, but it's in the same place in mid air every time. You do NOT want to get in a game of 14.1 with this guy!

I know the "too tall to bend" thing, all too well. I bend quite a lot for a 48 year old with bum knees and a bad back, but I do daily stretching exercises (hmmmm... seems my belly is stretching more lately than anything else) and keep myself as limber as possible. Even though my chin is a good 6 inches above the cue, my finish position is the same very time... my second knuckle of my grip hand thumb hits my right nipple. If my nipple isn't sore after a long race, then I know I'm not finishing well.

In any case, before I went to RandyG's Pool School, the first time (been there for three different stages of "study"), I had a "semi-pendulum" stroke... started out good, but had an elbow drop from hell just before impact with the cue ball. Now I have a good pendulum stroke and it not only insures that I strike the cue ball the same way every time, it provides feedback on what I'm doing, and how well I'm executing my stroke.

In any case, I'm a firm advocate of the Pendulum Stroke. Once Randy taught me a good stroke AND a good Personal Eye Pattern, my shotmaking and cue ball control soared! It only took about a month of drills to burn in the stroke so that it became second nature.

Later,
Bob

Rod
01-21-2005, 08:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
All strokes begin at zero, and accelerate through to each player's "natural" finish position. This may be with your grip hand in your armpit or not, as long as you complete the swing to a natural conclusion (no muscle interruption of the swing).

<hr /></blockquote>

Scott, perhaps I wasn't clear. I know what a pendulm stroke is. I was under the assumption that this salute method finished at the upper chest on every stroke. I'm thinking there is no way that can happen. Sure it will for some but it can't for all. I related it to something like a door stop per-say. When the door opens fully it hits the stop in the same place every time.

Your saying there isn't necessarly a stop, it's just where a player finishes naturally. That would be, as you said a complete range of motion. So I'm trying to figure out about this salute stuff. All I can see it's new coined phrase. It's nothing new, You/I/many others have always taught this method.

As far as my stroke, it's a modified pendlum. I personally prefer, on many shots, letting the upper arm go after impact. To me it's a much more of a free motion. The cue has no problem going to a full finish. On slower speed shots I do play with a pendlum. I know most people don't have the timing for such a swing and I don't teach it. The pendulum is by far a more simple motion. Only one part moves and that by far is easier to teach.

Rod

Cueless Joey
01-22-2005, 01:50 AM
I'm finding I'm getting more power by not dropping the elbow. If I drop the elbow I tend to stun the ball a bit.
If I don't drop the elbow, the tip dips to the cloth and am getting more spin. I can feel the tip more too.

stickman
01-22-2005, 08:16 AM
Joey, although I admit to being guilty of dropping my elbow, I understand what you are saying about getting more spin, being able to feel the tip, and probably having more control. With an abbreviated stroke or stun stroke you loose those things to a big degree. I'm not a true true piston pumper. I start off with a perfect pendullum, but can't break the habit of dropping the elbow to keep the cue from resting the tip on the table surface, when I finish. When I'm in stroke it is a beautiful smooth fluid motion that is quite effective. What I notice is that my stroke deteriorates quickly when I don't play regularly. It is easy to stay in stroke when I play everyday. I believe that I have a problem keeping my wrist in align. When I'm out of stroke, it's hard for me to complete a full stroke. I'm afraid I'll wiggle during my stroke and miss the shot. I have a tendency to abbreviate my stroke. The stroke trainer helps me to more quickly get back into stroke, along with actual table practice. When I am confident of my stroke, I let my stroke out and have a full followthough. It is the followthough that I believe you are experiencing.

This isn't intended to tell you that you don't need to finish your stroke with the tip on the surface. Keep doing what works well for you. These others aren't bad teachers, I'm just a tuff student. LOL As I say, sometimes it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Right now, I'm out of stroke. My playing time has been very limited. As soon as I'm over the Christmas and winter heating bill financial drain I'll be working hard to get back in stroke. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cueless Joey
01-22-2005, 01:33 PM
Stick, I had to fix my shank, err stroke. I tended to shank the cue to the left when I dropped the elbow.
Now, the salute stroke feels so much more natural. My follow is in-line with the shot.
I only hold the cue with the index finger gently, if that matters.
I sent Scott some pics and my credit card number. He liked what he saw but he's advised me to get a little closer to the cb with the tip ( nitpicker /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ).
I'm liking it. I'm able to shoot Kinnister's shot number one much more consistently.
Here are two pics. If Webshots permits viewing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif Have Stroke will travel. (http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?action=viewall&amp;albumID=256853233)

stickman
01-22-2005, 01:44 PM
LMAO!, HaHa. Sending your credit card? I'd send mine but it'd be rejected. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jimmy Mendoza
01-22-2005, 05:51 PM
I can't really keep my elbow from dropping, to some degree, at the finish of my stroke. It isn't that it "drops", but rather, it is pulled down from the force of my lower arm moving forward. I have, more recently, been working on making sure that my elbow is pulled down at the finish, rather than it being an independent motion, but I feel like I have to really *force* my elbow to stay in place if I try to keep it from being pulled down, naturally, at the finish of my stroke. Of course, this doesn't happen on every shot (softer shots), but on the shots where I have to hit it with some speed, it seems more natural to me that the elbow will be pulled down some. I really can't think of any [male] professional player whose elbow isn't pulled down, at least to some degree, at the finish of their stroke (Hopkins excluded). Who knows? Maybe keeping the elbow in the same place throughout the stroke comes easier to other players than it does for me.

SPetty
01-22-2005, 08:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Have Stroke will travel. (http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?action=viewall&amp;albumID=256853233) <hr /></blockquote><blockquote><font class="small">Quote WebShots:</font><hr><font color="red">An error has occurred.</font color>

You do not appear to be the owner of this album.
Make sure you are logged in.

Please push the Back button on your browser to correct this problem.
Thank you. <hr /></blockquote>

Cueless Joey
01-22-2005, 11:59 PM
Post deleted by Cueless Joey

Cueless Joey
01-23-2005, 12:01 AM
Webshots is kaka. I'm gonna try mypicgallery tomorrow after their upgrade of hardware.

Cane
01-23-2005, 07:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy Mendoza:</font><hr> I can't really keep my elbow from dropping, to some degree, at the finish of my stroke. (snip) I really can't think of any [male] professional player whose elbow isn't pulled down, at least to some degree, at the finish of their stroke (snip) <hr /></blockquote>

Jimmy, I have a friend/student, that just can't get rid of his elbow drop, yet he's an A player and improving constantly, BUT, we've video taped him time and time again, and his elbow stays pinned until after contact with the cue ball. He's not hurting anything by dropping after contact. He learned to play, 30 years ago, with a piston stroke, and only about 8 months ago did we get him started with the pendulum stroke... when he practices, he does it perfectly. His elbow looks like it's nailed in the air... but when it comes to game time, he has about a 3 inch elbow drop after impact. That, IMHO, doesn't hurt a thing. I'd like to see him with a "perfect" pendulum stroke, but since he's already past the cue ball, the advantage of the pendulum stroke has already had it's effect. The only thing he's missing out on is the feedback from finishing in the same place every time and seeing what went wrong when there is a problem. During a match when he hits a bad shot, he doesn't know what happened. When I hit a bad shot, I KNOW what I did wrong, just because of the feedback I get from freezing on my finish and reading the feedback the stroke gives me. Other than that, I see no problem with his stroke, elbow drop included.

Later,
Bob

Rod
01-23-2005, 09:39 AM
Bob, I'm glad to hear others say there is nothing wrong with an elbow drop after impact. It's a completely natural motion. If any thing staying in a fixed position isn't.

[ QUOTE ]
That, IMHO, doesn't hurt a thing. I'd like to see him with a "perfect" pendulum stroke, but since he's already past the cue ball, the advantage of the pendulum stroke has already had it's effect. <hr /></blockquote>

What seems odd here is you'd like to change a natural motion. Just for the sake of change because you don't like it, or your belief?


[ QUOTE ]
The only thing he's missing out on is the feedback from finishing in the same place every time and seeing what went wrong when there is a problem. <hr /></blockquote>


Where is that finish point? It seems there is some contradiction of instructors teaching this method. Why would he not "see" what went wrong?


[ QUOTE ]
During a match when he hits a bad shot, he doesn't know what happened. <hr /></blockquote>


I suppose all A players are not created equal. An A player should have a good grip on what happened. Maybe he is an entry A level and just lacks depth. At any rate your saying he would know if he finished in this (what I've been told or read so far) mystical finish position.

[ QUOTE ]
I KNOW what I did wrong, just because of the feedback I get from freezing on my finish and reading the feedback the stroke gives me. <hr /></blockquote>

I must be confused. An A player or one at a high level had to of read what happens after a shot. Maybe he is hyper and moves off the shot quicker than most. For one to obtain a high level of play they must have been watching something all these years.

I'm not giving you a hard time Bob, I'm trying to define this information. Explain your view on this finish position. The part of freezing has a rigid sound to me but it's all words I suppose. At an A + level for many years it became obvious finishing your stroke with a tension free swing kept you in position much longer. It's that tension free swing (letting the cue go through) (even with the elbow on many very good to pro players) that "allows" one to stay down much longer. Sometimes that's bad though, I've fouled from not getting up quick enough. LOL

Rod

Cane
01-23-2005, 01:39 PM
Rod,

Fair enough questions... and by the way, I don't ever take anything as personal or confrontational. If you meet me someday, the first thing you'll see is that I am as easy going and anxious to learn as anyone you could ever find. So, I don't consider your questions or challenges as giving me a hard time. What I consider is that any discussion of this kind gives ALL of us an oppurtunity to learn from each other, and that's what this forum is all about. I've learned a lot reading posts from Bob J, Fred A, Poolteacher Steve, and yeah, even that high desert travelling man, Scott Lee. Not just from them, but from everyone that posts on here. I have never thought I was too smart to learn anything new... if I did, then I'd still be playing 4 speed pool at the local bar! *S* Now, enough of the pleasantries and on with the answers!

First, again, this is just my opinion and open for argument, but the finish provides the best feedback you can have as a player. You can see one thing right off the bat that is, IMO, extremely important... "did I finish my stroke where I should have?" Now, if a player develops that perfect pendulum stroke, then he'll finish in the same place every time. If he finishes in the same place (with his grip hand) every time, and he's aimed properly, then there is no reason the shot should not be made. Is that a fair statement? In other words, if your aim is correct and stroke is correct, you make the shot. Here is where I feel like the "perfect" pendulum stroke helps, especially if you learn to freeze after the stroke. You will see if your cue is on line with your aim line. You will know if you are in your finish position. If you're trying to sneak in a little "wrist twist", you'll see it in that freeze after finish. Now, if a player never misses a shot, then none of this feedback is important, but I've yet to meet anyone that never misses.

As for changing a natural motion, I don't want to really change any MORE natural motion for this student, what I want to do is refine his NEW natural motion. Going from a piston stroke to a pendulum stroke was a big change for him. He has taken to it very well, and can't force himself to do a piston stroke anymore. He controls everything better even with the elbow drop after contact... his game has come up a lot since his stroke change... what might it do if he lost that one small imperfection in what many instructors would consider to be the "perfect pendulum stroke"? I don't know, he may not get any better than he is now, or he may jump up a notch, or his potential to improve may be limitless? I just don't know, but I do know this... if a player is stalled, then there are only two things that can hold him back... a mental block, or a deficiency in his fundamentals. If the perfect stroke (IMO that's the perfect pendulum stroke) is developed (assuming of course he has a sound stance and grip, and can aim a ball), then that only leaves one roadblock to elevating his game to the next level.

Where is that finish point? Well, that depends on the player, as far as where that grip hand finishes... fortunately for me, I'm barrel chested and I have a physical finish point that I hit every time. So, when I freeze after striking the cue ball, then I KNOW if I stroked well, because if I did, the tip of the cue will be on or close to the cloth, exactly on my line of aim. If I didn't make the shot, then I didn't aim well, or I didn't give proper consideration to angle, speed or spin. My point is, that if I'm finishing my stroke well, and freezing after the shot, then I have, right in front of me, every bit of feedback I need to know what is right... and what is wrong... When I nail a tough shot early in a match and I see that tip on the table perfectly on line with my line of aim, then my game just elevates.... cause I know if I stay sound and keep doing what I'm doing, there's not a shot on the table that I can't make. If I'm not on line, then I immediately know what I did wrong and I can immediately correct it. Nobody plays perfect or plays to their full potential every day, but I feel like its because the player changes something... so if a player can be comfortable with that pendulum stroke exactly as it's supposed to be executed and it will give them feedback to see what is right or wrong with their stroke, then would it not be a great tool to go from being out of stroke to moving right back into stroke?

Now, if someone were already an A or AA player, I wouldn't even dream of saying, "Let's make a couple of changes here and see what happens", but this particular person was NOT at that level, and yes, he is an entry level A player, but before changing his stroke, he had been stalled below that level for a very, very long time. I just can't help but think if we refine his stroke just a little more, what might happen???

LOL, don't think you're the only one that has fouled from staying down too long. RandyG, when we taught the road show in Idaho, said something to the effect that the students didn't have to freeze so long that they looked like they died on the table (he was referring to my very long freeze!). The only person I've ever seen that freezes longer than I do is David Matlock. Last time I was in a tourney he was in, we almost ran over to check his pulse after a shot!

Well, I hope my drawn out explanation helped clear up what I am trying to accomplish with this particular player. I have already changed his stroke drastically, which had an immediate positive effect on his game. Since we are so fresh in changing it, and since he has such a perfect finish in practice, then I think he will, very soon, on his own, carry that perfect finish over to his game. I also firmly believe that it will help bring his game to another level... maybe in a few months, that "entry level" will be removed from in front of his "A".

Later,
Bob

pooltchr
01-23-2005, 02:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr>He has taken to it very well, and can't force himself to do a piston stroke anymore. Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Interesting point, Bob. I find it very difficult to even try to demonstrate a piston stroke. It now seems very unnatural. The pendulim is the only comfortable stroke for me any more.
Steve

Cueless Joey
01-23-2005, 04:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting point, Bob. I find it very difficult to even try to demonstrate a piston stroke. It now seems very unnatural. The pendulim is the only comfortable stroke for me any more.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
Same here.

Rod
01-23-2005, 07:29 PM
Fair enough Bob, thanks for the reply. I was under the impression there was an actual point. As I read this, there is a physical finish point for some. If your a pendulum stroker all the way, and your bent over, the bicep and tricep coming together could be a finish point? If your more upright there isn't an actual finish point, other than there is no more range of motion. If that is the finish point, then you analize from there.

That's what had me confused. From there one should be able to anzlize what took place without an actual point.(Like your A player) that is given the tools to do so. That point, IMO, for anyone is when the cue goes through in an uninhibited tension frre motion. Many stop well short of that point strictly because of tension.

In time, armed with a little knowledge, one should be able to detect when something goes wrong. That could happen even if, one hit their actual stop point. I call that a hollywood finish, LOL, act/fake a finish. It's all to obvious to the trained eye.

In my case, I know when I didn't get through the ball right. That's whether I used a complete pendlum swing or I dropped my elbow in the finish. At any rate what you guys teach sounds the same as most others,(well except for the perfect pendulum part) just worded a bit different. I'll blame it on Joey, LOL, his salute part was what gave me the inclination there was a point. Not just that but I got the idea you and Steve were teaching an actual point. I just could not imagine that happening.

Rod

pooltchr
01-24-2005, 06:05 AM
Rod,
In many cases, there is an actual point, although it is different for almost every player. When the finish results in the grip hand coming to rest against a particular point, whether it is in the ribs, chest, whatever, that just makes it a little easier to duplicate the same motion on each stroke. The point in teaching this way is that if you use the pendulim stroke, align yourself the same way on each shot, you will finish in the same spot. For some students, it is easier to simply bring your grip hand forward to that spot. In those cases, the "perfect" stroke is a result of that one simple motion. And simplicity makes learning much easier for most students of the game.
Steve

Cueless Joey
01-24-2005, 09:31 AM
shooting pics (http://community.webshots.com/album/256853233eiiCMZ)
OK, let's try this again.

Cane
01-24-2005, 09:55 AM
Thanks for posting the pictures. Excellent example of a good finish to a pendulum stroke.

Steve, you're right, there is, in some cases, an actualy finish point to a pendulum stroke. I have one, and apparently, Joey has one... Looks like he's found a home for his grip hand on his chest at the end of his stroke.

Later,
Bob

stickman
01-24-2005, 10:17 AM
I always thought that, in the case of a more standup player, where the grip hand doesn't contact the upper body at finish, the finish point was where the tip rests on the table surface. I could be wrong though.

buddha162
01-25-2005, 03:04 AM
Joey,

Looks like you can shoot, lol...I see what you're saying about finishing the stroke (fist thumping nipple, hrm...) I must give that a try, at least for one night force myself to not elbow drop no matter what.

-Roger

Stretch
01-25-2005, 11:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Interesting point, Bob. I find it very difficult to even try to demonstrate a piston stroke. It now seems very unnatural. The pendulim is the only comfortable stroke for me any more.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
Same here. <hr /></blockquote>

I find i stroke better when i lock my shoulders in the set position. Even a slight movement in the upper body while cueing is bad news. When i see this in a player looking to improve consistancy and i point it out, it usually has immediate results. St~~that tip compliments of George Fels~~

Cueless Joey
01-25-2005, 12:43 PM
You will love the results.
I guarantee you that.

Qtec
01-25-2005, 02:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
and replaces the inconsistent, irregular stroke that you find with lots of other GREAT players! <hr /></blockquote>

I disagree that you can have an "inconsistent, irregular stroke "and still be a great player. To be 'great'you have to be consistent.

If you examine the Ronnie o 147 break, you will notice that on certain shots he does drop his elbow.[ after contact with the Qb].
Follow through means exactly that,you follow the cue.

Qtec

Cueless Joey
01-26-2005, 12:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If you examine the Ronnie o 147 break, you will notice that on certain shots he does drop his elbow.[ after contact with the Qb].
<hr /></blockquote>
After contact, yes. And very slight.
But, to drop the elbow TO make contact with the cb is another matter. Sure, Bustamante does, but he's not human. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Bob_Jewett
01-26-2005, 11:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> I dunno if these points are valid but I'm gonna spew them anyway. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
... <hr /></blockquote>
For those who subscribe to BD -- you know, the sponsor of this forum -- might want to revisit articles on the elbow in the February and March 2004 issues.

Those of you who saw Earl's cutting comment on-camera at the 2003 Mosconi Cup about Nick van den Berg's style might be interested to know that Earl was actually giving Nick good advice about what he should be doing with his elbow. But of course, it didn't come off as helpful advice.

Many top players have two distinct strokes. Jeremy Jones, Nick vd Berg, Loree Jon Jones, Tony Robles and Mike Massey (and of course Bustamante) all have remarkable strokes, by which I mean different from the typical pro.

If you want to study strokes, the best way is to go to a major tournament and watch elbows. That's much harder to do than it sounds because the natural tendency is to watch where the balls are going.