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moonpuppy
01-19-2005, 04:46 PM
Maybe someone can advise on this problem. Breaking in nine ball lately, I cannot seem to avoid the cueball rolling forward. I have tried center ball, 1/2 tip below center. I have also tried some back foot adjustments on advice from another player but no luck. Anyone have some suggestions? Thanks. . . moonpuppy

Cane
01-19-2005, 04:51 PM
have someone who knows what to look for watch you. Sounds like you're dropping your elbow before impact. If you're doing that, then you're actually hitting the cue ball way above where you're lining up to hit it.

Bob

woody_968
01-19-2005, 04:55 PM
Without seeing you hit some shots its hard to say whats going on. Does the cueball move forward a few inches or does it have enough follow to reach the foot rail?

If I had to take a guess it would be that you simply are not hitting the cueball where you think you are. If you have a Rempe or Elephant training ball use it for a while and check yourself. If not, take a stripe ball and set it with the number dead center (where you want to hit) and with the number right side up so you will know top from bottom. Now get a good amount of chaulk on your tip and break the balls then look to see where you hit it. I would bet that your mark will be above where you were aiming.

You can do this without racking the balls and just hitting the ball straight up and down the table. Gaining control of your tip will not only help your break, it will improve your entire game.

woody

ras314
01-19-2005, 04:57 PM
Also you might try setting the cb so the red circle or whatever is where a center ball hit will leave a chalk mark. Put a mark on the top of cb to tell where up is. With a correct weight cb either a center ball or 1/2 tip low tip should draw back. If you've got a big heavy bar cb, good luck.

Scott Lee
01-19-2005, 05:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> With a correct weight cb a center ball hit should draw back. <hr /></blockquote>

Roy...HUH??? This can ONLY happen if you elevate your cuestick. You cannot defeat physics, my friend! LOL No matter what anyone says, you can't hit horizontal center (with a level cue) and draw the CB. But then you already KNEW that, didn't you? LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Great advice on the first part, though!

Scott

ceebee
01-19-2005, 05:24 PM
the Break Stroke is really no different than the shooting stroke. A firm, level, accurate stroke, with control built in by a motionless frame, will give you some dynamic results. Hitting the cue ball hard just requires some great muscle coordination, that makes your efforts look easy.

Scott Lee is a well known instructor and he has a controlled break stroke to die for....

ras314
01-19-2005, 05:26 PM
Hi Scott,

Yeah, I expect the cb to come back a bit with a center hit on a fast break. Assuming it is a tight rack, the cb is effectivly hitting a much heavier object so shouldn't just stop if no spin on the cb. Think I'll go try it with different speeds just to see.

I keep trying to get a level cue on the break. Banged up my break cue considerably on the table rails and wacked my knuckles a few times. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Billy_Bob
01-19-2005, 05:37 PM
If you can videotape your breaks, then play them back in slow motion, you may be surprised at what is actually happening. I learned that when I add speed, my aim goes out the door.

ceebee
01-19-2005, 05:39 PM
A cue ball stops dead in it's track, when it strikes another movable object ball squarely (with a proper hit).

The cueball stops, because the object ball picks up the linear energy at impact and moves away with the transferred energy from the energy source (cue ball).

You can drop the cue ball, like a knuckle ball, on concrete until you are blue in the face. The cue ball will not stop in it's track, on the concrete, at the point of contact.

The Cue Ball is not allowed to transfer it's energy to a stationary object, so the cue ball changes it's shape upon impact. The resiliency (return to original shape) causes the Cue Ball to rebound.

ras314
01-19-2005, 06:28 PM
Ok, just spent a while playing with this. The cb stops all right (assuming the head ball was hit square, a good point), then rolls either forward or backward if spinning. On my table any cb center hit fast enough to get 2 or more balls to the rail tends to back up a half diamond or so. With around 1/2 tip of bottom at that speed it will back up 2 or 3 diamonds.

This slow break appears to stay flat on the table so I expect cloth friction plays a big part.

Also a perfectly square hit on the head ball is necessary, doesn't take much off to put the cb rolling down table. In fact unless the cb stops and then takes off the hit probably was not square.

I am looking forward to your Breakrack so I don't have to spend so much time racking. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

moonpuppy
01-19-2005, 08:32 PM
Alot of great feedback, guys. I'll be working on the suggestions provided. It is obvious that my tip strike was not where intended, by using the marked or striped ball I will receive confirmation and feedback for correction and accuracy. I will also reduce my speed a bit and work concentrating on the smooth, level stroke. It has been my experience as well, breaking with a center ball hit or slightly above center and have the cueball bounce back a couple of diamonds then sit. Beautiful when done correctly. Thanks again.. . moonpuppy

DavidMorris
01-19-2005, 09:26 PM
Well, "draw back" and "bounce back" are two different things. Like Scott said, there is no way a centerball hit will draw back. However since on a moderate to hard breakshot the cueball is actually airborne and not touching the cloth during the entire length of travel from tip to head ball, and the mass of the rack is much greater than the mass of the CB, the CB will bounce back somewhat -- it is an elastic collision and since the CB is airborne there is no cloth friction to help hold it. This is evident with a force follow break shot, where the CB jumps back a few inches before landing on the cloth and spin takes over.

Bob_Jewett
01-24-2005, 08:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DavidMorris:</font><hr> ... and the mass of the rack is much greater than the mass of the CB, the CB will bounce back somewhat -- it is an elastic collision and since the CB is airborne there is no cloth friction to help hold it. ... <hr /></blockquote>
A couple of nits to pick here....

It is true that the mass of the rack is a lot more than the cue ball, but that is not the reason that the cue ball is forced back from the rack for a solid hit on the front ball. One way to understand the action is to imagine that all the balls are slightly separated. The cue ball hits the head ball full and stops dead. The head ball goes forward and hits one of the next two balls. It caroms off that ball along the perpendicular to their line of centers and hits the other ball in the second row. It caroms off that ball again along the perpendicular to their line of centers. The path of the head ball will then be partly into the cue ball, which has more or less stopped dead, and the cue ball will be driven back from the rack.

It is easy to test this idea. Set up just three balls in a triangle, and place a ghost cue ball where it would be if you hit the "rack" straight down the middle of the table (as with a break at three-ball). Back the "ghost cue" off a little bit and place another ball in a straight line up the table. The five balls now are in a Y configuration with a small separation between the arms and the foot of the Y. Arrange to shoot the combination to drive the "ghost cue" into the head ball and clear the fifth ball (which guarantees a full hit on the head ball) out of the way. I think you will find that the "ghost cue" will bounce back from the three-ball rack with considerable speed. (I haven't actually done the experiment yet.)

The second point is that cloth friction at the instant of the cue-ball-to-rack collision, even if it is present, is a much, much smaller force than the ball-ball forces, and so will have negligible effect. Of course, if the cue ball is airborne, and it bounces back from a solid rack, any follow it has cannot have an effect until it lands. When it does land, the follow can have a nearly instant effect because the bounce forces the cue ball against the cloth with a force considerably greater than gravity. This effect (instant traction) is well modelled in Virtual Pool.

DavidMorris
01-24-2005, 09:42 PM
Thanks for the clarifications, Bob. We can go for years observing a particular action or reaction and not fully grasp the reasons for it, even thought we think we do.

&lt;~~~ appreciates having his nits picked by those in the know... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif