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05-26-2002, 04:50 PM
Most of my friends and I played pool mostly in high school from about 65 to 70. And we also bowled in leagues. Then the local pool room attached to the 14 lane bowling alley closed for good. It would close for about 3 months each summer. Then it just never reopened.
In about 81 someone talked me into replacing someone who had quit on their tavern team. Some of the places we played in were actually scarey. And at the end of the year I never got paid the money I was due. Dispite all this I thought there was potential for pool to progress like bowling did. A couple months ago I started replaying pool again. And it seems like pool just never has progressed from about 81.

Are the WPBA,APA & BCA all different? In bowling everything was ABC. I think that was the ruling body. We would travel from Chicago to places like Cincinatti, Fort Wayne, and a lot of subburbs and citys around Chicago to bowl in tournaments. And everything was run according to ABC sanctions or rules. I think all tournaments were open to everyone. There would be separate prize money & trophys for stuff like high game scratch & handicap, and high series scratch & handicap. There would be mens prizes and womens prizes. But everything was in some way connected by the ABC governing body. Maybe pool would do better with just one governing body. Maybe all tournaments should have an open section. I meam where ameteurs could enter and play off for spots so the best of each tournament could have a chance to play against the pros. I am really disappointed at how little pool has seemed to progress.

Maybe pool could be joined up somehow with bowling or golf. Maybe that would help get things to progress more.

I looked in a small free magazine called Chalk Talk. There seems to be plenty of local tournaments around. In bowling there were usually just one tournament near the end of the season at most local bowling alleys. And many are handicap tournaments. But they all seem to be run by local pool halls. And there doesn't seem to be much, if any, connection between them. If only somehow all these local tournaments could be organized.

Maybe these small tournaments could with hold maybe $10 or $20 a week. And once or twice a year have all the winners in a playoff. Or maybe a point system agreed on by pool's governing body could be set up. And then use this mini playoff or point system to pay the best or the best few player's way into one of the bigger tournaments. This works well in poker from what I've been told. That is how bowling tournaments were. But they were all connected through the ABC. I think it is totally unacceptable that there isn't at least 1 pro womens tournament each month. I can't believe this. I think with all the pool rooms around, and all the local tournaments around, if one body could organize stuff properly, within a few years at most there could be at least a minor major tournament each week. And maybe that could help with getting pool on tv in a regular weekly time slot. I remember when bowling was on tv every Sun. And back in the 60s a lot of those tournaments were for small money.

Tom_In_Cincy
05-26-2002, 06:16 PM
As long as the 'Random' pool orgainizations exist (i.e. APA, VNEA, BCA, TAP and the regional men's and women's tours) the likelyhood of a single Organization for Pool events (tours and leagues) like the ABC, is very slim.

The aforementioned organizations won't even talk to each other let alone think of a Nation Org. that will sanction any or all events.

I would love to see an org. like the ABC sanction all leagues and tournaments for Pool players.

This could only be good for the entire Pool industry.

Unfortunately, the industry will not let it happen. Barboxes and 8 footers would have a difficult time meeting any national requirements. Too much revenue would have to be split up, and that alone would cause too many problems.

How do you expect rules to be consistant between bar tables and 9 footers? How about a handicap system? At least bowling is based on an individuals performance against the pins in an alley. Not against what is left from an opponents safety.

Still, this question needs some answers, from the various organizations.. why not merge into one big national org?

Ken
05-26-2002, 08:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>
Unfortunately, the industry will not let it happen. Barboxes and 8 footers would have a difficult time meeting any national requirements.
How do you expect rules to be consistant between bar tables and 9 footers?
Still, this question needs some answers, from the various organizations.. why not merge into one big national org?

<hr></blockquote>

This is the reason that Diamond is making a 7 footer that plays the same as their 9 foot table. They tried to get the BCA tournament and they will be supplying the bar tables at the APA to APA specifications. They will be using ordinary cue balls.

I heard that around 40 of the special weighted or magnetic balls (whatever they were) at the BCA were rejected. I assume they were brand new but apparently noone inspects them before shipping them. If they can't make an acceptable ball by now they should give up. Valley is just holding pool back by not providing the same type of equipment that the pros play on.
KenCT

BLACKHEART
05-26-2002, 10:23 PM
All of the pool leagues &amp; their governing bodies have made the organizers very rich. They are in it for the money. I can't blame them for wanting to make a buck, but they are only going to do things for us, that benifit them as well...JER

05-26-2002, 10:29 PM
That must have been true for other sports like bowling &amp; golf. But they seem to have succeeded in making their sports profitable for the players. There must be a way for pool to succeed like these other sports have.

JimS
05-27-2002, 07:33 AM
It would be easier to get the Jews and the Arabs to have a potluck picnic than to get the various pool organizations to merge. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Doctor_D
05-27-2002, 07:47 AM
Good morning:

On the surface, this may seem like an over simplification. However, if there are no significant benefits to BOTH sides of the equation growth and development will stagnate. There is a good book to read; "Win Win Negotiating". When both sides benefit, "win" their objectives, there is a greater likelihood for growth, development and success.

Dr. D.

Tom_In_Cincy
05-27-2002, 10:45 AM
The only thing stopping this WIN-WIN opportunity is GREED.

No one wants to give up their piece of the CURRENT pie. They all want the Orange Crush.. and odds.

Doctor_D
05-27-2002, 11:06 AM
Good afternoon:

Short sighted "Greed", protecting one's own truf, innevitably stunts one's growth. My favorite question, asked of business owners who do not want to merge or accomodate investors, is; "What Would You Rather Have, 100% of a grape or 10% of a Watermellon?"

Some people are so bent on holding on to their grape that they ever have the chance for a piece of the watermellon.

Dr. D.

Tom_In_Cincy
05-27-2002, 11:22 AM
Welcome to the wonderful world of the Pool Industry.

This has been the way its been since the mid 60s.

What will change it? Only if the pool players can get some decent representation. A true Pool Players Association.

If the current Orgs think they have the upper hand. Exactly what would they think they would do if the players decided to NOT use them?

05-27-2002, 11:43 AM
Maybe I'm wrong to think of pool in about the same way golf and bowling was thought of in the 60s. There isn't a more slow moving game around then golf. It was just a hustler's game. And the clubhouses were filled with nothing but hustlers in either golf or cards as a side game of golf. And bowling is the same It was either a hustler's money game or a league with mostly drunks. And both of these evolved. Even with too many governing bodies I can't quite understand why pool hasn't gotten bigger, faster. Other sports overcame the same obstacles that pool hasn't been able to overcome yet.

Doctor_D
05-27-2002, 12:02 PM
Good afternoon:

Maybe what we need to do is form a Player's Union!

Dr. D.

Vapros
05-27-2002, 01:59 PM
Since we have bowling and the American Bowling Congress involved in this pool discussion, I will tell you a little story that may, or may not, contribute to the forum. I know a lot more about bowling than pool, anyway. The moral of the story is whatever you may want it to be.

The ABC is indeed the governing body for bowling, and has been for many years. All leagues and tournaments had to be ABC sanctioned, and woe to any bowler who strayed from the regulations and took part in unsanctioned events. Another organization, the BPAA (Bowling Proprietor's Association of America) began to put on promotions and tournaments for bowlers who participated in BPAA establishments. They sanctioned their competitions through the ABC, as required, but limited entries to BPAA bowlers, in an effort to promote the BPAA members. They had big tournaments - for example the All Star in Chicago, formally known as the National Match Game Championships, and other events.

Quite a few years ago, perhaps during the 60s, the ABC sued the BPAA to let all ABC bowlers participate in their events, and not only BPAA bowlers. The suit wound up in court, where the decision was against the BPAA. However, at the same time, the court ruled that ALL bowlers could enter in all events, even the ABC's competitions, without the requirement of ABC membership!! The ABC got a lot more than they asked for, and it was quite a mess, as the average and handicapping systems suffered accordingly.

I'm not current on the bowling situation - I don't know how it goes today. I'm pretty sure both the ABC and the BPAA are still functioning, but in what relationship I don't know.

I have pointed this out as a caveat to pool. Beware of a central governing body becoming too powerful. Any working plan must be flexible, but at the same time, success on a grand scale depends on a large number of dues-paying players, whose support is the basis for funding tournaments. You cannot announce a tournament with only a small prize fund to split up, and expect a big field of top players to spend big money to get there and stay at local hotels. Pool won't make it with only a cadre of unemployed players who have to live in their cars to play out of town. Sponsors are needed to guarantee better prize funds, and we have a lot of housecleaning to do before we can expect them to show up at the door, wanting to help.

Ralph S.
05-27-2002, 11:05 PM
I as much as anybody would like for the players to make more money like other sports. Until their is more sponshorhip from corporate America, this will not happen. And in retrospect, the other sports' players make the money due to the fact they play in large stadiums and arenas that seat thousands. Pool is not designed to be promoted to the viewing public in that manner. Those two reasons, in my opinion, are why the players pay-outs from tournaments is so dismal in comparison to other sports.
Ralph S.

05-28-2002, 01:16 AM
It seems like pool players spend as much money as people in other sports. Sticks, cases, maintainence tools, practice playing time etc. could cost more then say bowling. I think golf is one of the most expensive sports or hobbies. If potential sponsors can be made aware of how much the average pool player spends weekly, monthly yearly etc. they might be more willing to invest more advertising and support money into pool. Bowling is also a limited viewer sport. I still can't believe how little pool has progressed in the 20 years I've been away from it.

Kato
05-28-2002, 08:35 AM
Have the prize funds in bowling increased over the last 15 years? I don't think so though I may be wrong. They have a tour, they have lot's of good players, they have patches all over and nice bowling balls and bags and shoes but are they making more $$$$$. Once and a while I will turn on a bowling tournament and they do pump it up alot. Fist pumping and crowds going off. That is cool. But does that change the prize funds?

Kato~~~bowled a 136 2 weeks ago and proud of it.

05-28-2002, 09:33 AM

MikeM
05-28-2002, 09:43 AM
I don't know if they have increased or not but the earnings list looks pretty healthy to me:

EARNINGS PBA
1, Parker Bohn III, Jackson, NJ, $245,200
2, Doug Kent, Newark, NY, $185,010
3, Pete Weber, St. Ann, MO, $170,125
4, Walter Ray Williams Jr., Ocala, FL, $164,450
5, Mika Koivuniemi, Finland, $158,550
6, Jason Couch, Clermont, FL, $157,475
7, Chris Barnes, Dallas, TX, $143,165
8, Patrick Healey Jr., Mexico, $139,708
9, Ricky Ward, N. Fort Myers, FL, $133,150
10, Ryan Shafer, Elmira, NY, $132,200
11, Steve Wilson, Lake Worth, FL, $120,575
12, Brian Voss, Atlanta, GA, $119,383
13, Robert Smith, Simi Valley, CA, $116,943
14, Tommy Delutz Jr., Flushing, NY, $113,050
15, Bob Learn Jr., Erie, PA, $101,840
16, Danny Wiseman, Baltimore, MD, $98,187
17, Rick Steelsmith, Wichita, KS, $85,700
18, Dennis Horan Jr., Temecula, CA, $84,145
19, Patrick Allen, Tarrytown, NY, $83,740
20, Steve Jaros, Bolingbrook, IL, $82,015
21, Norm Duke, Clermont, FL, $77,575
22, Bryon Smith, Roseburg, OR, $77,373
23, Steve Hoskins, Tarpon Springs, FL, $73,363
24, Tony Reyes, San Jose, CA, $71,514
25, Dave Arnold, Reno, NV, $69,585

Vs.

Professional Pool
Earnings
1, Efren Reyes $215,362.00
2, Corey Deuel $102,163.00
3, Mika Immonen $99,919.00
4, Fong-Pang Chao $85,634.00
5, Neils Feijen $80,569.00
6, Ralf Souquet $54,609.00
7, Karen Corr $54,175.00
8, Allison Fisher $49,510.00
9, Jose Parica $43,690.00
10, Francisco Bustamante $41,030.00
11, Charlie Williams $39,939.00
12, Jeanette Lee $38,900.00
13, Earl Strickland $34,707.00
14, Warren Kiamco $33,634.00
15, Johnny Archer $31,561.00
16, Alain Martel $29,100.00
17, Alex Pagulayan $27,425.00
18, Jeremy Jones $27,355.00
19, Marcus Chamat $26,123.00
20, Jennifer Chen $25,200.00

Pretty pathetic. Even more so when you notice that the Pool list includes men and women and the bowling list is only the men.

MM

MikeM
05-28-2002, 09:59 AM
Here's the women's bowling tour earnings list:
1 Dorin-Ballard, Carolyn $135,045.00 # $139,045.00
2 Terrell, Kim $ 96,500.00 # $ 98,500.00
3 Macpherson, Wendy $ 92,940.00 # $118,940.00
4 Honeychurch, Cara $ 92,565.00 # $ 93,565.00
5 Feldman, Michelle $ 90,285.00 # $ 90,685.00
6 Barrette, Leanne $ 88,655.00 # $ 89,455.00
7 Johnson, Liz $ 85,827.50 # $156,827.50
8 Kulick, Kelly $ 65,057.50 # $ 80,757.50
9 Duggan, Anne Marie $ 47,342.50 # $ 52,942.50
10 Davidson, Dede $ 40,615.00 # $ 51,615.00
11 DiRupo, Marianne $ 40,340.00 # $ 43,840.00
12 Adler, Kim $ 39,930.83 # $ 44,430.83
13 Gaines, Kendra $ 37,120.00 # $ 41,220.00
14 Johnson, Tish $ 37,105.00 # $ 42,805.00
15 Bishop, Lisa $ 35,620.00 # $ 41,820.00
16 Dorin-Lizzi, Cathy $ 30,487.00 # $ 31,587.00
17 Gianotti-Block, Carol $ 28,947.50 # $ 32,147.50
18 Nable, Maxine $ 25,097.00 # $ 26,097.50
19 Swanson, Jennifer $ 24,630.00 # $ 24,630.00
20 Stroud, Karen $ 24,470.50 # $ 25,570.50
21 Grijalva, Tennelle $ 22,765.83 # $ 22,765.83
22 Perez, Rachel $ 22,230.00 # $ 22,230.00
23 Turner, Tammy $ 21,860.00 # $ 24,860.00
24 Ray, Shana $ 21,217.50 # $ 21,217.50
25 Norman, Brenda $ 21,135.00 # $ 23,235.00
26 Stanbrough, Tiffany $ 19,975.00 # $ 19,975.00
27 Piesczynski, Janette $ 19,725.00 # $ 19,725.00
28 Tribbey, Kathy $ 19,095.00 # $ 19,095.00
29 Kamrowski, Marcia $ 17,724.50 # $ 17,724.50
30 Daniel, Laura Lee $ 17,205.00 # $ 17,205.00


The second figure is earnings plus TV incentives (whatever that means). So the 15th ranked women's bowler made more than Earl Strickland. No wonder he's so pissed off!

MM

Kato
05-28-2002, 10:08 AM
I stand very much corrected.

Kato~~~your humble servant

05-28-2002, 11:03 AM
I haven't bowled since the early 70s. Back then almost all tournaments were ABC sanctioned. ABC would get results of your scores for any tournaments you ever bowled in. And if you cashed in or won any prizes I think you were subject to an immediate adjustment in your average. This determined your handicap. And this adjusted average would be use in future tournaments.

Even if your average used for tournaments wasn't adjusted by the results of one tournament, it was adjusted by the results of a few. So you could still sandbag in a league to get a higher handicap for money tournaments. But that higher handicap would quickly disapear if you did well in any tournaments or won any cash or prizes. I think your tournament ave would also be adjusted upwards if you bowled above ave in tournaments even if you didn't win any cash.