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View Full Version : HELP ME TO PUT ON LAYERED TIPS



BLACKHEART
05-27-2002, 08:50 PM
As you regulars know, I have been doing repairs since 1985 or so. I do 1500 - 2000 repairs a year. So, with all of this knowledge, from all of these years, why can't I put on a TALISMAN tip & shape it without the top layers coming apart. I tryed 3 times today to install a Talisman soft tip & each time ,when shaping, the tip comes apart. I finally gave up & put on a TIGER soft tip & had not problem the 1st time out. If there is a secret, maybe someone could share it with me. THANKS...JER

05-27-2002, 08:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: BLACKHEART:</font><hr> I tryed 3 times today to install a Talisman soft tip &amp; each time ,when shaping, the tip comes apart. I finally gave up &amp; put on a TIGER soft tip &amp; had not problem the 1st time out. If there is a secret, maybe someone could share it with me. THANKS...JER <hr></blockquote>

i finally went to pre-rounded tips after my cue dr. kept running into the same problem. i suspected her blade on the lathe-cutter wasn't sharp but i'm not sure. i'm also not sure how much it matters since i went to the talisman site and found that tony is suggesting taking off the top few layers anyway to prevent the tip from separating due to the high touque of extreme english.

dan

05-27-2002, 09:08 PM
MOORI MOORI MOORI

BLACKHEART
05-27-2002, 10:53 PM
Come on people. All I ever hear on this board is how great these layered tips are. Now is the time to prove it. All I want to know is HOW DO I KEEP THEM FROM FALLING APART? I put on 16 tips this weekend only the Talisman tips fell apart....WHY...What am I doing wrong????????...JER

Troy
05-27-2002, 10:54 PM
Jer... I too had delamination trouble when I first did laminated tips, be it a Talisman, Moori, Tiger/Everest, etc.

Two things I learned through trial &amp; error --
1. After burnishing, I let the tip "re-cure" for about an hour to allow the layer adhesive to re-set.
2. When shaping with a SHARP cutter bit on the lathe, I slowly shave from the edge to the center and finish with 80 grit sandpaper.

I stock Talisman Pro tips but only those that are pre-domed . Also, I take a couple layers off when shaping depending on the final tip diameter per a tip from Tony Jones at TalismanBilliards.Com

Hope this helps.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: BLACKHEART:</font><hr> As you regulars know, I have been doing repairs since 1985 or so. I do 1500 - 2000 repairs a year. So, with all of this knowledge, from all of these years, why can't I put on a TALISMAN tip &amp; shape it without the top layers coming apart. I tryed 3 times today to install a Talisman soft tip &amp; each time ,when shaping, the tip comes apart. I finally gave up &amp; put on a TIGER soft tip &amp; had not problem the 1st time out. If there is a secret, maybe someone could share it with me. THANKS...JER <hr></blockquote>

sliprock
05-27-2002, 11:00 PM
CHeck out this page.. Hope it helps. Steve
http://www.talismanbilliards.com/FAQ.asp

BLACKHEART
05-27-2002, 11:23 PM
I went to the site that was suggested. It says to me that we are dealing with a tip that will fall apart unless handled differently than any other tip. Then they tell me that they already know the tip is going to fall apart. Why would I recomend or even use such a poduct????? I have no connection with ANY tip manufacturer, BUT I put on a soft Tiger tip &amp; installed it as I would any other. 10 minute job &amp; it was done. What's more, from the way it looked when I shaped it, I be pretty certain it will stay together. TALK TO ME, TELL ME I'M WRONG...JER

05-27-2002, 11:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: BLACKHEART:</font><hr> I went to the site that was suggested. It says to me that we are dealing with a tip that will fall apart unless handled differently than any other tip. Then they tell me that they already know the tip is going to fall apart. Why would I recomend or even use such a poduct????? I have no connection with ANY tip manufacturer, BUT I put on a soft Tiger tip &amp; installed it as I would any other. 10 minute job &amp; it was done. What's more, from the way it looked when I shaped it, I be pretty certain it will stay together. TALK TO ME, TELL ME I'M WRONG...JER <hr></blockquote>

If you look at Moori they are made in Japan and are VERY good consistent layered tips compare to Talisman. I'd say it's because it's not consistent.

sliprock
05-28-2002, 12:32 AM
JER, I can't tell you that you're wrong. I too would be worried about selling a product that I didn't have complete confidence in, but the talisman tips are really gaining in popularity because of the way they play. It seems that once the technique of putting these tips on is mastered, they would probably be a good money maker and well worth the price of a few dis-carded tips. Good Luck..Steve

BLACKHEART
05-28-2002, 12:44 AM
I've never put on a MORRI tip, have you? What tools do you use to shape the tip???
It seems to me that this board has been used to advertise 2 products extensivly. That being Talasman tips &amp; Preditor Shafts. Now if I were a smart guy, I'd get 2-3-4-5 of my friends or family to tell everyone on this board that my product was great &amp; everyone here should try them. I'm sure this can't be the case here, but it seems that a lot of people that have no technical knowledge about instalation or playability say these are better than other products. All I'm asking is that if a tip falls apart &amp; cost 10 times what a normal tip costs..... WHY WOULD I WANT IT?????? Tell me how to get it on without it falling apart...JER

05-28-2002, 12:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: BLACKHEART:</font><hr> I went to the site that was suggested. It says to me that we are dealing with a tip that will fall apart unless handled differently than any other tip. Then they tell me that they already know the tip is going to fall apart. Why would I recomend or even use such a poduct????? I have no connection with ANY tip manufacturer, BUT I put on a soft Tiger tip &amp; installed it as I would any other. 10 minute job &amp; it was done. What's more, from the way it looked when I shaped it, I be pretty certain it will stay together. TALK TO ME, TELL ME I'M WRONG...JER <hr></blockquote>

ok, you're wrong.

hundreds of cue docs have been happily puttin 'em on and thousands of players have been shootin with them, very happily, for several years now and you finally get around to trying to mount a couple and wind up doin this cat-in-the-dryer routine??? c'mon, j.e.r., you are way too skilled a craftsman for this stuff.

either buy 'em already rounded or do it with sandpaper and forget the cutter. that's not complicated. i've tried tigers and they don't play as well or last as long as talisman.

as to tony's suggestion of shortening them, i suspect that's from people taking a brand new tip and blast/breaking off-center with them. you just don't do that with a talisman. the tip isn't really all that great till it's got a few hours regular play on it and then it settles down and stays just right forever.

as to recommending them to customers; put one on your playing cue. play with it for a month. then come back and tells us all that we're all crazy in thinking it's a great playing tip.

dan

Rod
05-28-2002, 01:04 AM
Jer, you won't hear that from me, that is how great layered tips are. I did order several Talisman med tips. The guy that put it on shaped it with a razor blade laying flat on the tool bar/post. Mine are the undomed tips. They have a decent hit after all the mushromed is trimmed off, which I hate a tip that does that. But the remaining factor is they don't hold chalk very well. It's the only one I'm using, the other 10 or so I'm going to sell. I can tell you won't be interested!

BLACKHEART
05-28-2002, 01:15 AM
I got 3 of these tip &amp; tested each on my own Q. I ended up liking the soft. In fact it's on my Q right now. My question is, that it plays well, but why would I go to all of this bother, when I can put on a Tiger more easily &amp; it'as good. The tips I have are flat on top &amp; it's the the shaping of these flat tips that concern me. I've tried cutting them on the lathe &amp; sanding them while in the lathe. The damn things fall apart. TELL ME HOW TO DO THE SHAPING, THAT'S ALL I WANT TO KNOW...JER

Chris Cass
05-28-2002, 01:28 AM
Hi Jer,

I'm not a cue repair guy but here's my 2 cents. I've used Moori, Talisman both and never had the problems I had with Talisman. I liked and had no problems with the Moori tips. The only problem I had with Moori is they didn't last long and only hit the way I liked them when they were about half down.

I had 3 Talisman tips split in the 3/4 layer down, leaving 2 layers off the ferrule. When I returned from Vegas I looked at the tip after putting on my reading glasses because I'm blind my tip had sperated down the middle. I took my thumbnail and the only thing that was holding it togather was the center. Beat's me. I had been using LePro tips since I began playing and I've had it up to here with the layered tips. I give up. I ordered a box of LePro's and I crush them in a vice put them on with super glue Gel, then I trim and shape, I then use the Gel glue on the side as a light coat to seal and strengthen the tip. I burnish and to hell with anything else.

A Beaten Man,

C.C.

TalismanTony
05-28-2002, 01:54 AM
Hi JER,

We have had quite a few reported problems (over the years) regarding seperation during installation. Causes range from too much heat being generated during shaping (perhaps what is happening here) to liquid being applied to burnish the sides of the tip.

The reason perhaps that this is not happening with Tiger tips is due to different glue formula, this is also accounts for the difference in playability.

Whenever our tips consistently fail during installation it has proved to be a result of the installation technique, as we now have hundreds of cue makers and repair guys successfully installing Talisman tips everyday (This month, we have added Terbrock Cues and Barringer Custom Cues to the list of cue makers using Talisman on their cues). Whenever problems occur, the person having the problems gets in touch with me, I send replacement tips and we work through the problem until the customer is 100% satisfied and that has happened in 100% of cases.

If you would "really" also like to work through this problem then please email me.

Regarding our FAQ, do you seriously believe I produced this because our tips fall apart? FAQ stands for Frequently Asked Questions and that is exactly what they are. It has saved me hours answering the same email questions and only been praised by customers until now.

I take customer service extremely seriously as many here will testify, customer satisfaction is the basis of my business. Perhaps next time you would be so kind as too give me a chance to respond before getting so excited in public. I am sure you would appreciate the same consideration if I had a problem with your cues.

Chris Cass
05-28-2002, 02:41 AM
Tony,

You could have saved me 3 tips and just kick me in the butt. I've done 3 things wrong since reading your site. I tip tapped and lost the center, burnished with spit and colored the side wall with a black magic marker and sure enough I voided my warrentee. LOL Well, looks like I'll give them another try. I really did like the way they hit. I just don't like changing tips every 2 wks.

Regards,

C.C.~~thanks for the tips on your tips. Tip Monger C.C. learned from Barbara....

TalismanTony
05-28-2002, 03:53 AM
Hi Chris,

Yeah you need to hide away the tip tapper, it will destroy the integrity of the top layer and when it starts coming away in small fibres its very difficult to stop, you may need to go through one or two layers to get to an untouched layer before it will stop. The tips will hold the chalk really well without tapping and only need a gentle scuff now and again.

The magic marker on the side will cause the tip to seperate as the chemicals in the ink react with our glue.

Sorry you didn't get to see the FAQ before you had the problems.

Kind regards,

Doctor_D
05-28-2002, 05:22 AM
Good morning:

From an analysts perspective. If the only trouble you are having is with the Talisman Tips, and no other layered tip, then the problem is the tip. If you are having problems with ALL layered tips, then either your inventory is old and dried out or there is some other mechanical problem.

Dr. D.

BillPorter
05-28-2002, 06:07 AM
Jer, I'm not a cue doc, but I've been putting tips on my own cues for a while. No lathe; I do everything by hand. I hadn't played pool in several years and when I started playing again about a year ago I saw all this stuff about layered tips. All the rage. I figured pool had progressed since I played in the 1980's. I ran out and bought a Predator cue and several types of layered tips. (I'd used Le Pro's for years.) I put on two Talisman WB tips and two Talisman Pro mediums. Also put on a couple of Talisman WB tips for friends. No problems with any of the tips! All of the tips I used were DOMED and therefore required less shaping. There was absolutely no delayering during shaping. I'm wondering if it's the heat or the blades? Maybe doing it by hand produces less heat and is simply more gentle? I realize that if you are doing lots of tips, you can't spare the time to shape by hand, but maybe you could try the domed tips? BTW, the layered tip I ended up liking best was a Hercules tip. It seems to hold chalk very well and had never needed reshaping. Another BTW, I back playing with a 20 year old Meucci and have the Predator up for sale.

JimS
05-28-2002, 06:20 AM
I've installed 3 or 4 Talisman Pro hard and xhard tips by hand and have not run into any problems. I shape them with sandpaper and use spit to burnish the side.

I've also been using the Talisman Pro hard on my play cue for almost a year now with absolutely no problems. Only used the Tip Pik a couple of times, no shaping, no mushrooming, GREAT feel.

SpiderMan
05-28-2002, 08:08 AM
Jerry,

I've not had those problems with Talisman or any of the other layered tips. Are you using a cutter bit to shape the crown, or are you using sandpaper? I only use sandpaper in a contour holder. If you're using a cutter, it may be ripping the leather.

I did, on one tip about a year ago, have a layer break down near the ferrule. It was not a glue delamination between layers, the layer in question actually went spongy. I attributed it to the tip being too tall for the small diameter in that particular install, leading to a bunch of leverage near the base. I'm pretty sure it happened in usage rather than installation, because the owner played with it for about two weeks before it started making a noise.

I have read accounts of layered tips delaminating (glue failure) from heat generated by burnishing or trimming, but I haven't tried to heat one up and see if it happens. I never let them get very warm when I'm working them.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: BLACKHEART:</font><hr> As you regulars know, I have been doing repairs since 1985 or so. I do 1500 - 2000 repairs a year. So, with all of this knowledge, from all of these years, why can't I put on a TALISMAN tip &amp; shape it without the top layers coming apart. I tryed 3 times today to install a Talisman soft tip &amp; each time ,when shaping, the tip comes apart. I finally gave up &amp; put on a TIGER soft tip &amp; had not problem the 1st time out. If there is a secret, maybe someone could share it with me. THANKS...JER <hr></blockquote>

SpiderMan
05-28-2002, 08:19 AM
Jerry,

I've also installed Mooris, shaping them with sandpaper as described in my other post, and not had problems. I do agree with Rod, the Talismans do not hold chalk as well as regular tips; they tend to go slick quicker than most. Maybe it's the glue formulation. But I've not had any problems with them coming apart, so I don't think you will either. BTW, I don't use a magic marker on them and I go slow so as not to get them hot.

For my personal cue, I'm very happy with the triangles I've been using. They hold chalk and play much better, and since they only cost fifty cents I'm not that worried about replacement every few months. The soft Talisman will hold chalk and play well, but for me it wouldn't hold a crown without reshaping, which meant faster wear.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: BLACKHEART:</font><hr> I've never put on a MORRI tip, have you? What tools do you use to shape the tip???
It seems to me that this board has been used to advertise 2 products extensivly. That being Talasman tips &amp; Preditor Shafts. Now if I were a smart guy, I'd get 2-3-4-5 of my friends or family to tell everyone on this board that my product was great &amp; everyone here should try them. I'm sure this can't be the case here, but it seems that a lot of people that have no technical knowledge about instalation or playability say these are better than other products. All I'm asking is that if a tip falls apart &amp; cost 10 times what a normal tip costs..... WHY WOULD I WANT IT?????? Tell me how to get it on without it falling apart...JER <hr></blockquote>

Troy
05-28-2002, 09:33 AM
Jer... Please read my response posted last night BEFORE you go off ..... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif I've already answered you. Either you didn't read it or haven't tried my suggestions.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: BLACKHEART:</font><hr> I've never put on a MORRI tip, have you? What tools do you use to shape the tip???
It seems to me that this board has been used to advertise 2 products extensivly. That being Talasman tips &amp; Preditor Shafts. Now if I were a smart guy, I'd get 2-3-4-5 of my friends or family to tell everyone on this board that my product was great &amp; everyone here should try them. I'm sure this can't be the case here, but it seems that a lot of people that have no technical knowledge about instalation or playability say these are better than other products. All I'm asking is that if a tip falls apart &amp; cost 10 times what a normal tip costs..... WHY WOULD I WANT IT?????? Tell me how to get it on without it falling apart...JER <hr></blockquote>

05-28-2002, 12:07 PM
Jerry, My cue repair man has been putting on layered tips for years, (since I bought my 1st Moori from Mike Gulyassy in 1994). He has always done the shaping with a razor knife, starting with the blade at the center and turning it to each end as the lathe turns. I'm sure you've seen that technique. Hard to describe, but very simple to do. He's never had a layered tip come apart during shaping, and we've been selling them since 94, including Talisman.

If I've not described the technique adequately, email me and I'll try to improve.
Andy G.

05-28-2002, 06:21 PM
Post deleted by ccboard_admin

cheesemouse
05-28-2002, 06:23 PM
Hey a$$hole give it a rest.

BLACKHEART
05-28-2002, 06:42 PM
Let me see if I can answer most of your helpful posts, in one quick post of my own. 1st off I have E-MAILED Tony at Talisman &amp; asked him for his suggestions. I should have gone there before, but it just didn't occur to me ( DUH ).
As for the other suggestions. I have tried to trim these tips using a razor knife &amp; sandpaper both. I've tried sealing the edges 1st, then shaping the top. I've run the lathe both slow &amp; fast. Nothing seems to matter. Of 12 tips 9 delaminated (all of these were "soft"tips). Of 30 Talisman hard &amp; medium tips only 3 delaminated. That's still not good considering NONE of my other layered tips ever had this problem( I have 7 other laminated tips)...JER

05-29-2002, 01:12 AM
u might know this butt layered tips HATE heat if they get warm at all the fall apart try one by hand and see if that works be careful burnishing the sides too.
Later

05-31-2002, 10:52 PM
JER,
I've put on numerous Moori's and never had a problem. I was having the same problems you're having with the Talisman tips. I emailed Tony and he sent me 33 tips--free--soft,medium,hard,domed,undomed. I was also having alot of the tips making a tink noise. Tony said I was generating too much heat and told me not to burnish. I tried everything from cutting them with a razor--not on the lathe but by hand and then sanding them and using alot of compressed air to keep things cool. I still kept getting the tink in at least 50% of the tips. In the end he told me I was the only one having these problems. I have since quit using them. If someone wants a laminated tip I sell them Moori.
I think I've found the easiest way to shape them which doesn't generate heat. I use my edgesander--for those of you who don't know what an edgesander is, it's like a really big beltsander. Don't sand from the ferrule up, sand from the top of the tip towards the joint and rotate the shaft as you sand. You'll find this takes material off very fast and doesn't delaminte the tip.

Harold Acosta
06-01-2002, 07:35 PM
Blackheart, I have purchased over 50 of these tips, I have personally installed over 20 of them; the others have been purchased from acquaintences or friends. Only 1 of them have told me that it delaminated, so I replaced it and put it myself. I do it the old fashioned way since I do not have a lathe. Everything manually including finishing and burnishing. Maybe I have been lucky because I also received the first batch from Tony (free samples) and those didn't delaminate. At least, I am happy with the product.

PoolFool
06-03-2002, 07:32 AM
I have also been installing my own tips by hand with no problems. I also like Hercules. However, the old Hercules is no longer made. If you know of any source with two year old Hercules tips in stock, please let me know. Have you ( or anyone) compared Instroke with Hercules or Moori? I believe the Instroke is still available.

PoolFool

BillPorter
06-03-2002, 08:10 AM
PoolFool, I have bought a couple of Hercules tips over the past few months from Billiards Express (http://www.billiardsexpress.com/). Don't know how (of if) they differ from Hercules tips made in years past. Haven't tried Instroke or Moori tips.

TonyM
06-03-2002, 02:31 PM
"So, with all of this knowledge, from all of these years, why can't I put on a TALISMAN tip &amp; shape it without the top layers coming apart."

I don't know, but it would surely be related to the technique that you are using. I've never tried to install a Talisman soft tip (never had a request to date) but I have installed many of the med to hard tips. I've never had any layers delaminate.

Generally, I pre-compress almost every tip that I use in a machinist's vice to remove any entrapped air, and to eliminate the break-in period. After gluing the tip in place, I machine the side flush with the ferrule (or very close) with a freshly sharpened high-speed steel single point tool (always from the top of the tip towards the ferrule ie: right to left). Then I wet sand the tip flush to the ferrule and burnish smooth. After that I machine a rough shape to the tip (sort of a cone shape) with the sharp tool set at an angle. Then I dress the tip to get the correct curvature using a Trogdon shaper (a piece of rectangular maple with a dime curvature milled along it's length and a piece of emery type paper glued-in).

So the final shaping is done with the shaping tool.

Another trick that I do is to remove 1 or two of the top layers before shaping. Most of the layered tips are too tall imo, and this extra height can cause more trouble than it's worth. Besides the extra height usually causes the tip to lose something in the hit that I don't like. So I shape tips to what I call "playing" height. Since they last so long anyway, it is never an issue with customers.

Tony
-my favorite layered tips are Mooris and Tigers btw

Cueless Joey
06-19-2002, 09:28 AM
Well, I just had a medium Tals installed last night. It too peeled off. It was a new one. The one with GLUE written on the gluing side of the tip. Cuemaker replaced it with another brand that was supposed to be a little softer. That one installed fine.

TalismanTony
06-20-2002, 12:46 AM
Hi Joey,

Could you let me know which cue maker this was. I'll check with to see why he might be having problems. You mention that "GLUE" was marked on one side so this means it was an undomed tip. Maybe he would not have problems with the domed tips.

Kind regards,

06-20-2002, 03:25 AM
Tony I ordered the tips from Barringer. The cuemaker is a local one here. I'll have to ask him if it's ok to give his email address. He is very experienced. He's been installing Mooris for a long time and currently prefers Sniper, Hercules and Everest.

Troy
06-20-2002, 09:59 AM
One more time --- I have zero problems with Talisman Pro DOMED tips delaminating during the installation process.

After burnishing, I let the tip "rest" for at least an hour prior to shaping. I do the shaping on a lathe with a cutter attachment adjustable for final radius and I cut from the edge toward the center. The final shape is with 80 grit followed with 150 grit sandpaper while the shaft is spinning.

Troy

TalismanTony
06-20-2002, 09:04 PM
Thanks, I'll email Joe and find out more. He only just purchased a bunch of tips.

Kind regards,