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View Full Version : Highsea....you really know how to...



wolfdancer
01-26-2005, 11:26 AM
hurt a guy....tearing down one of my two heros...JFK
While I've seen the story before, of the "pill popping Prez"
you made it sound as if one mentally unbalanced person, even one in our highest (no pun intended) office....could provoke, or even begin a war.....hmmmm...maybe you got something there.
We've come a long way, since FDR had to convince an isolationist Congress, of the need to intervene.
Back to my original worry....next you'll be claiming that Ted Williams was on steroids?

Wally_in_Cincy
01-26-2005, 11:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> ...you made it sound as if one mentally unbalanced person, even one in our highest (no pun intended) office....could provoke, or even begin a war...... <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think he was mentally unbalanced but all the JFK lovers/Bush haters should remember who got us into Vietnam.

Rich R.
01-26-2005, 12:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> I don't think he was mentally unbalanced but all the JFK lovers/Bush haters should remember who got us into Vietnam. <hr /></blockquote>
JFK was initiating the process of getting us out of Vietnam, when he was killed.

highsea
01-26-2005, 12:15 PM
Hahaha. Sorry about that Jack. I am not really trying to tear down Kennedy. It was a touchy situation, and we came out of it on top. What the incident shows is that the best course of action is not always the politically correct one. There are times when a tough stand is called for.

I can't stand hipocrisy and revisionist history. You can't point to the CMC as a great diplomatic victory. It was anything but that. It was two Superpowers toe-to-toe with guns drawn and the fate of the world in the balance. Luckily for everyone Khrushchev backed down.

It could have been avoided, but should it have? I don't know. It was the height of the cold war, and it showed both sides how perilous the situation actually was. It opened the door to improved communications, detente, and highlighted the need on both sides for meaningful talks on arms reduction and control. Both sides learned just how quickly things can spiral out of control.

It's just a piece of our history, and interesting to reflect on from time to time.

But I promise I will never say anything bad about Ted Williams! Some things are sacred, man, what kind of a sick bastard do you think I am anyway? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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SnakebyteXX
01-26-2005, 12:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
While I've seen the story before, of the "pill popping Prez" you made it sound as if one mentally unbalanced person, even one in our highest (no pun intended) office....could provoke, or even begin a war..... <hr /></blockquote>

Once he was assassinated, JFK got put on a pedestal and left there for several decades. In retrospect there is little doubt that the man had clay feet.

Have you ever taken Prednisone (cortisone)? In males it can result in aggressive behavior and spontaneous outbursts of temper. I've taken it for asthma a number of times and have learned to use the temper/aggressive part as an opportune time to call people who owe me money...

In Kennedy's case, combine the steroid use with regular injections of amphetamines (speed) and you had a very real potential for catastrophe. I doubt that he was entirely sane during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I think we are fortunate that we didn't have to pay for the side-effects of his drug abuse with a nuclear holocaust.

Snake

highsea
01-26-2005, 12:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> JFK was initiating the process of getting us out of Vietnam, when he was killed. <hr /></blockquote>Huh? It was Kennedy that sent 900 Combat Advisors to Vietnam in 1961. That was the beginning of the US buildup in Vietnam. Prior to that it was just a few CIA guys in Saigon. Kennedy had concluded that a confrontation with the USSR was inevitable, and would have to follow the Korea model, with conventional weapons and proxies. Kennedy chose Southeast Asia as the battleground.

The first US Combat Troops didn't go to Vietnam until 1965, after the Gulf of Tonkin Incident.

Kennedy was an advocate of US involvement in Vietnam. He saw it as a safety valve between the Superpowers.
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wolfdancer
01-26-2005, 12:57 PM
Wally, the roots of that war go back further than JFK's Presidency. Let's not debate that tragedy...it has nothing to do with the problems caused by our present involvement in Irag.
But, as the late President Reagan once said
REAGAN, August 1980

"Well, it's time that we recognized that ours was in truth a noble cause. Let us tell those who fought in that war that we will never again ask young men to fight and possibly die in a war our government is afraid to let them win."
Hopefully this is not the case in Iraq.
Another $80 billion, and how many more lives lost, or bodies maimed, before a solution can be achieved?
That additional $80 billion could have been used to rebuild our own aging infrastructure, for education, for health care/research, etc.
For whatever reasons, just or unjust, that we are in this war....the country, the leaders, congress, should unite to restore peace.
"Bush haters"...your words...probably do not hate the man, but loathe both his foreign and domestic policies.
I think of all the cabinet members that have resigned, Colin Powell's stands out. A true old soldier would not leave the battlefield, in the middle of the war, unless......
Vietnam divided the country, weakened it's resolve, caused our own Armed Forces to question their committment....what will this war do.....?
If the President can accomplish his objectives, he will go down in history, as a great leader,in troubled times.

wolfdancer
01-26-2005, 01:19 PM
" Have you ever taken Prednisone (cortisone)? In males it can result in aggressive behavior and spontaneous outbursts of temper. I've taken it for asthma a number of times and have learned to use the temper/aggressive part as an opportune time to call people who owe me money."
Fortunately, no.....but I do have a brother with an uncontrollable temper, who once held off 4 cops, has numerous assualts, and is currently on probation...
narrowly escaping prison....
While history has revealed some of JFK's faults, I've
never seen, the Cuban crisis blamed entirely on his
irrational behavior....seems like I read somewhere that
our new friends, the Russkies, were going to aim missiles
at some USA sites. And, you can't blame him, then not give him credit for finding a peaceful solution ...it wasn't known until recently, but as one of the concessions, he offered Kruschev a lifetime pass to Disneyland.
Maybe it's the combination of the prednisone, and the fumes from the nearby wineries......and I promise, I'll pay back the $20, asap

highsea
01-26-2005, 02:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> While history has revealed some of JFK's faults, I've never seen, the Cuban crisis blamed entirely on his irrational behavior....seems like I read somewhere that our new friends, the Russkies, were going to aim missiles at some USA sites.<hr /></blockquote>Jack, I don't want you to misinterpret my comments on the CMC. I said right up front that I agreed with JFK's handling of the situation.

The point I was trying to make (and I think I made it), was that it was not an example of diplomacy. It was political hardball of the most extreme form. In the real world, this is sometimes the best course of action.

Kennedy's actions sparked the crisis, there is no doubt. But he did it for the right reasons, and a hard line was called for with Khrushchev. He (Khrushchev) had tried to bully Kennedy in Vienna the previous year over Berlin, and Kennedy needed to show him that he was no pushover. Khrushchev built the Berlin Wall as a message to JFK. It stood for 47 years, and became the central symbol of the cold war.

Now, today is not 1962. If it was, we would have already blockaded North Korea, and would be facing off with China. As you once mentioned to me, we are living in interesting times. History will be the judge when it comes to Bush. All we can do is sit back and hang on, because it may be a wild ride.
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hondo
01-27-2005, 08:28 AM
Eisenhauer got us in Vietnam. Kennedy probably
would have got us out if he hadn't been shot.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> ...you made it sound as if one mentally unbalanced person, even one in our highest (no pun intended) office....could provoke, or even begin a war...... <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think he was mentally unbalanced but all the JFK lovers/Bush haters should remember who got us into Vietnam. <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman2
01-27-2005, 08:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Wally, the roots of that war go back further than JFK's Presidency. Let's not debate that tragedy...it has nothing to do with the problems caused by our present involvement in Irag. <font color="blue">Actually, Vietman was the French Vietnam for 10 years before we took it over. Is it not ironic that the CMC, The Cold War, and Vietnam, much of which was during the Democratic years, was, in the end, based on our fear of the Soviet Build-up of weapons of mass destruction, which, it turned out was based on, dare we say, faulty intellegence. Does this all sound familiar in some vague way and did senate inquiries, flailing of monority appointees for no more than political gain (or polirical suiside, according to how you plan the DMC future)come flying from even the Goldwaters of the day/ Just curious.

Deeman
spent the early sixties Democratic years sheltered under a wooden desk in grade school...
</font color>



But, as the late President Reagan once said
REAGAN, August 1980

"Well, it's time that we recognized that ours was in truth a noble cause. Let us tell those who fought in that war that we will never again ask young men to fight and possibly die in a war our government is afraid to let them win."
Hopefully this is not the case in Iraq.
Another $80 billion, and how many more lives lost, or bodies maimed, before a solution can be achieved?
That additional $80 billion could have been used to rebuild our own aging infrastructure, for education, for health care/research, etc. <font color="blue"> There is no way either side will really divert these funds to those needs. It just does not have the political capitol is should. </font color>
For whatever reasons, just or unjust, that we are in this war....the country, the leaders, congress, should unite to restore peace. <font color="blue">Well said! </font color>
"Bush haters"...your words...probably do not hate the man, but loathe both his foreign and domestic policies.
I think of all the cabinet members that have resigned, Colin Powell's stands out. A true old soldier would not leave the battlefield, in the middle of the war, unless...... <font color="blue"> He might be tired of the political heat of having to be associated wiht unpopular causes, he might be considering a run for pres. His tennis game is suffering, He wants to go into business with his son. </font color>
Vietnam divided the country, weakened it's resolve, caused our own Armed Forces to question their committment....what will this war do.....? <font color="blue"> The same, but unpopular does not mean it's not right. The resolve will, hopefully see us through with a minimum of losses and also, hopefully, really bring some freedom to a people who need it very badly. </font color>
If the President can accomplish his objectives, he will go down in history, as a great leader,in troubled times. <font color="blue"> I pray he does and that the sacrifices that men and women are making will change millions of peoples lives for the better, for a long time. </font color>



<hr /></blockquote>

Chopstick
01-27-2005, 09:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>
Deeman
spent the early sixties Democratic years sheltered under a wooden desk in grade school...
</font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

I remember that, and the nuclear attack drills where we had to run into the halls and get down with our backs to the wall and put our hands on the back of our neck. Remember the Cox bomb shelter on 51?

Deeman2
01-27-2005, 11:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>
Deeman
spent the early sixties Democratic years sheltered under a wooden desk in grade school...
</font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

I remember that, and the nuclear attack drills where we had to run into the halls and get down with our backs to the wall and put our hands on the back of our neck. Remember the Cox bomb shelter on 51? <font color="blue"> Yes, I do. Of course, you mean on Elvis Presley! Wink, wink, wink....I would have just headed for Voodoo Village, if I'd known Spidy was that tight with the home boys...</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Rich R.
01-27-2005, 12:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> Huh? It was Kennedy that sent 900 Combat Advisors to Vietnam in 1961. That was the beginning of the US buildup in Vietnam. Prior to that it was just a few CIA guys in Saigon. Kennedy had concluded that a confrontation with the USSR was inevitable, and would have to follow the Korea model, with conventional weapons and proxies. Kennedy chose Southeast Asia as the battleground.

The first US Combat Troops didn't go to Vietnam until 1965, after the Gulf of Tonkin Incident.

Kennedy was an advocate of US involvement in Vietnam. He saw it as a safety valve between the Superpowers.
_________________________________________________ <hr /></blockquote>
I won't debate any of the things you mentioned, because I am far from a historian.
However, I have seen on several TV documentaries, that JFK had decided to get us out of Vietnam and was starting the process. Unfortunately, he was killed and LBJ was extremely gun ho about being in Vietnam. Instead of getting out, he escalated the war.
If this is not accurate, I am sorry. I base these views on the documentaries that I have seen.

Chopstick
01-27-2005, 12:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>
However, I have seen on several TV documentaries, that JFK had decided to get us out of Vietnam and was starting the process. Unfortunately, he was killed and LBJ was extremely gun ho about being in Vietnam. Instead of getting out, he escalated the war.
If this is not accurate, I am sorry. I base these views on the documentaries that I have seen. <hr /></blockquote>

I saw those shows as well. I remember thinking it was tragic that he got killed when he did. It does paint things in a different light. I do remember the idea of limited conflicts between the super powers. I never really agreed with that.

wolfdancer
01-27-2005, 12:57 PM
PBS did a series on the war...unfortunately, I missed it
From their outline though:
Fifty-eight thousand Americans lost their lives.

The losses to the Vietnamese people were appalling.

The financial cost to the United States comes to something over $150 billion dollars.

Direct American involvement began in 1955 with the arrival of the first advisors. The first combat troops arrived in 1965 and we fought the war until the cease-fire of January 1973. To a whole new generation of young Americans today, it seems a story from the olden times.
The link:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/intro.html

The roots of the war go back as far as WWII, when in return for his help, Ho Chi Minh was assured that they would have a role in governing their own country..which had been under French rule.
After WWII though, the French reneged, and a war ensued, with a French defeat at Dien Bien Phu in 1954.
I read an interesting book some time ago "Our Own Worst Enemy" by William Lederer, who co-authored "The Ugly American".
I also was at Vung Tau and Saigon, on a Merchant Ship, shortly before the war. I actually got in a round of golf, while the sounds of gunshots could be heard. Wasn't there long enough to learn anything, but we were visited by a CIA officer, who came to our anchorage to visit an old friend...and said if "they" knew he was out here, he'd be killed on the way back.....that was in reference to the drug trade, not the Viet Cong
What critical war supplies did we bring over there?
A shipload of fertilizer, to one of the most aridable countries in Asia...well, before agent orange