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TommyT
01-27-2005, 12:16 PM
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What type of english should be applied for a shot like this down the rail. I'm talking simply to cinch the ball and be able to make shots like this on a more consistent basis. Mike Sigel says he applies inside english to all cut shots?. When cutting to the right or left is inside or outside english preferred?. What type of english helps to make the shot.
Also not diagrammed, how about if the 9 was on the rail?. I need to practice this shots and want to be sure I'm using the right english.

Thanks,
TommyT

Deeman2
01-27-2005, 12:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TommyT:</font><hr> START(
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What type of english should be applied for a shot like this down the rail. I'm talking simply to cinch the ball and be able to make shots like this on a more consistent basis. Mike Sigel says he applies inside english to all cut shots?. When cutting to the right or left is inside or outside english preferred?. What type of english helps to make the shot.
Also not diagrammed, how about if the 9 was on the rail?. I need to practice this shots and want to be sure I'm using the right english.

Thanks,
TommyT <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> TommyT,

I don't think Mike said he uses inside on all cut shots. He may use a little outside to avoid a skid but IMHO you should use english for the appropriate behavior of the cue ball, not to "help" a ball into a pocket. That being said, I do tend to use a little outside for the previously explained reason but I'm an old guy set in my ways... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Some people undervalue the use of english but far more use it as some sort of crutch for other fundamental problems. I think a good dose of straight pool for about six months will cure most english addicts and teach them, at the same time, when it is needed. Nine ball seems to encourage it even when not needed. A suptle game refines it.</font color>

Deeman
too much english, too much French, too much German....

Ich spiele vie eine Tier!

Rod
01-27-2005, 12:35 PM
Tommy,

There really isn't a correct english. However I'd guess many shoot the shot with outside or low outside. In this case that would be left. If you really just want to make this shot I'd say center ball. Using english when you don't have to in a just make situation is just asking for trouble.

If the 9 was frozen I'd say center ball again. Many like a touch of right but in this case if shot to hard it could scratch in the opposite corner. With center it won't.

Rod

Bob_Jewett
01-27-2005, 12:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TommyT:</font><hr> ... Mike Sigel says he applies inside english to all cut shots?. ... <hr /></blockquote>
As I recall he said he prefers to use outside english.

But as Rod pointed out, your best bet is no english. For the shot with the ball frozen on the cushion, you need to hit the cushion before the ball, but the best way to approach the shot is probably to ignore the cushion entirely and shoot your normal shot with your normal aim.

There are still some people who will tell you to hit the ball and cushion at the same time for a frozen ball, but they're confused. See Koehler's book for his very detailed observations on this shot.

Paul_Mon
01-27-2005, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TommyT:</font><hr>
What type of english should be applied for a shot like this down the rail. I'm talking simply to cinch the ball and be able to make shots like this on a more consistent basis. Mike Sigel says he applies inside english to all cut shots?. When cutting to the right or left is inside or outside english preferred?. What type of english helps to make the shot.
Also not diagrammed, how about if the 9 was on the rail?. I need to practice this shots and want to be sure I'm using the right english.

Thanks,
TommyT <hr /></blockquote>

Tommy,
I read what Sigel just wrote in BD and agree if you just want to cinch the ball. That said. How many times is that the case? Inside english may be exactly what is not needed to gain position on the next shot. I read in Mosconi's book 35 years ago where he suggested inside english on balls frozen to the rail. We (Phil and I) set a ball one diamond away from the corner pocket and shot it into the corner pocket 7 diamond away using inside and outside. Both of us could pocket the ball regularly (80%) using inside and much less (20%) using outside. Small sample size with two guys that are far from Pro status but our results indicated that inside made the shot easier. George Fels devotes many pages to the merits of inside english in "Advanced Pool". I'm a believer and a practicioner. Above all else having read Mosconi and Fels beliefs and then making it part of my practice routine I don't find inside english difficult to use. For whatever reason (and Fels gets into them) people in general are more comfortable using outside and less so using inside. How'd it go with Mike?

Paul Mon

Stretch
01-27-2005, 01:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote TommyT:</font><hr>
What type of english should be applied for a shot like this down the rail. I'm talking simply to cinch the ball and be able to make shots like this on a more consistent basis. Mike Sigel says he applies inside english to all cut shots?. When cutting to the right or left is inside or outside english preferred?. What type of english helps to make the shot.
Also not diagrammed, how about if the 9 was on the rail?. I need to practice this shots and want to be sure I'm using the right english.

Thanks,
TommyT <hr /></blockquote>

Tommy,
I read what Sigel just wrote in BD and agree if you just want to cinch the ball. That said. How many times is that the case? Inside english may be exactly what is not needed to gain position on the next shot. I read in Mosconi's book 35 years ago where he suggested inside english on balls frozen to the rail. We (Phil and I) set a ball one diamond away from the corner pocket and shot it into the corner pocket 7 diamond away using inside and outside. Both of us could pocket the ball regularly (80%) using inside and much less (20%) using outside. Small sample size with two guys that are far from Pro status but our results indicated that inside made the shot easier. George Fels devotes many pages to the merits of inside english in "Advanced Pool". I'm a believer and a practicioner. Above all else having read Mosconi and Fels beliefs and then making it part of my practice routine I don't find inside english difficult to use. For whatever reason (and Fels gets into them) people in general are more comfortable using outside and less so using inside. How'd it go with Mike?

Paul Mon <hr /></blockquote>

Amen to that Paul. I mirror those sentiments exactly.

I asked a realy, REALY good player once that same question. What he did (if anything) to cinch those rail balls. He said " i just lay it in there with a little inside english and let the pocket gobble it up".

The thing with inside english is you've got more than one way to make the ball. If you miss the cut wide "which is easy to do with inside) you'll kick it down rail first. If the ob is frozen to the rail (fortunately most arn't) it's a bit trickier so speed is the key. If you play the shot like a draw drag it works well. Of course where you want the cue ball to go is the determaning factor.

For some of the same reasons above i believe it's widely agreed upon that those table length cut shots where your last ball is in about a diamond and just off the rail are best played with inside. your percent of makeing them goes way up with the added benefit of if you miss it horeably the ob will bounce back to around where it was and the cue ball will come all the way back up table. St.

Paul_Mon
01-27-2005, 02:32 PM
Stretch,
I practice this bank shot often.

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It (or variations of it) come up often in 1 pocket. But what you also learn from this shot is how to make it in pocket B. When I first came online and got involved over at RSB there was a long thread about "get-in" english or inside english. Many old timers swear by it.

Paul Mon~~~~~gonna set a record tonight -5 F, how about you?

Popcorn
01-27-2005, 04:02 PM
On that shot I don't think there is a should. Just pocket the ball and if anything hold the cue ball a little. It seems when the cue ball is not running around after a shot you are more comfortably pocketing the ball and not distracted. English one way or another should not be needed to be sure you make that shot.

Stretch
01-27-2005, 04:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr> Stretch,
I practice this bank shot often.

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It (or variations of it) come up often in 1 pocket. But what you also learn from this shot is how to make it in pocket B. When I first came online and got involved over at RSB there was a long thread about "get-in" english or inside english. Many old timers swear by it.

Paul Mon~~~~~gonna set a record tonight -5 F, how about you? <hr /></blockquote>

Unfortunately i can't use the wie table. I'm loveing 1P too. Kyle (a fellow ccb'er in Halifax) has been showing me the ropes. We've only played a couple dozen games of it on "FREE" night at the Pool Hall. Made my first 8 and out last night. Now i'm hooked! lol St~~ -5f. is our daytime high ~~

BCgirl
01-27-2005, 08:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TommyT:</font><hr> What type of english should be applied for a shot like this down the rail.
... how about if the 9 was on the rail?
<hr /></blockquote>

For the cut shot, I don't think there's a right or wrong way. The rail shot is quite different.

There's a very thorough analysis of frozen rail shots in the "Science of Pocket Billiards". It shows that outside english always gives a higher margin for error, so it ought to be an easier shot in all cases, especially for hard shots.

However, I generally prefer the inside english shot with a medium to firm hit. For finesse shots, I find it's the opposite way around.

I know that differs from the theory, and players at all levels of play seem to be split on the verdict. All I can do is offer you my own best explanation for each opinion.

On the inside :

It's easier to make the required compensations for aiming point and squirt, so it's more natural to train your brain for these shots. This is reinforced by typical pattern play, where you play these shots more.

On the outside :

It's just easier. Aim in the right place, you've got more margin for error. The numbers back it up. And the people who say otherwise just don't make the required aiming compensations so well. I guess I can include myself here.

At the end of the day, it's important not to neglect either inside or outside english in practising either the cut or frozen rail shots. If you get comfortable with centre ball hits first, then vary the english, I think you'll get to a better all-round level faster.

BCgirl

Fred Agnir
01-28-2005, 07:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BCgirl:</font><hr> There's a very thorough analysis of frozen rail shots in the "Science of Pocket Billiards". It shows that outside english always gives a higher margin for error, so it ought to be an easier shot in all cases, especially for hard shots. <hr /></blockquote>I don't have this book and have never seen the chart, but I would think that the margin of error changes as the angle of approach changes such that on some shots, inside english has a huge margin of error compared to outside.

Fred

Fred Agnir
01-28-2005, 07:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TommyT:</font><hr> START(
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What type of english should be applied for a shot like this down the rail. I'm talking simply to cinch the ball and be able to make shots like this on a more consistent basis. Mike Sigel says he applies inside english to all cut shots?. <hr /></blockquote>I remember reading this article, and I could swear Sigel says he applies outside english to all cut shots. In fact, I have some tapes that every cut shot, he is using outside english.

To cinch this ball, I use center, natural roll (~70% high).

Fred

TommyT
01-28-2005, 10:41 AM
In this months Billiard Digest in Mike Sigels column he says "When cutting a ball to your right, I feel that using a little right English is the only way to get the most consistent results possible. When you cut a ball to the left, it's vice-versa, of course."

TommyT /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Stretch
01-28-2005, 12:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BCgirl:</font><hr> There's a very thorough analysis of frozen rail shots in the "Science of Pocket Billiards". It shows that outside english always gives a higher margin for error, so it ought to be an easier shot in all cases, especially for hard shots. <hr /></blockquote>I don't have this book and have never seen the chart, but I would think that the margin of error changes as the angle of approach changes such that on some shots, inside english has a huge margin of error compared to outside.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Even with thin cuts especialy within a foot or two, i find aiming to be easier with inside english (if the resulting shape allows it) At least it gives me a visable target so it's a snap to get lined up. I know the throw on my cue so if i need a full tip of side say I'll aim at half (middle) of the OB to get a quarter ball hit, and i'll aim a quarter ball to get a thin hit. For the rail first if the ob is just off the rail you can simply aim at it's edge, throw it into the rail and kick it down. I know it's tuff to make blanket statements about how and why you approach different shots because of the endless variety of approach angles and distances, and proximaty of a rail. If it were easy it would be no fun haha.

In most cases useing outside english is completely called for. All those 2o or 3o degree cut back shots? I don't know why, but use the outside english and you end up just spinning them down with ease.

Centre ball hit? What's that.:) oh ya, natural shape (if the balls are clean) St.