PDA

View Full Version : Do you like the push-out rule?



woody_968
01-29-2005, 08:29 AM
In Barbara's thread on the APA the topic of not being able to push out after the break came up. jjinfla even mentioned that he had heard one of the pro's thought it should be taken out of the rules.
While in the APA I didnt like not being able to push out, but I think the main reason was because APA is played by points and when you are spotting someone so many balls already it was really a killer to have to kick at the one after a bad kiss on the break.

On the other hand, playing no push out would put even more of a premium on cueball control during the break.

Below is from Mark Wilson's web page (http://www.playgreatpool.com/what_i_think_about.html) and shows his view on the topic.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mark Wilson:</font><hr>PUSH OUT THE PUSH OUT RULE

The push out after the break rule in 9-ball is a dinosaur of a rule that needs to be eliminated as the intention is no longer justified. Originally it was a means to help eliminate luck from the unfortunate player that does not have a good shot after the break. When two skilled players are playing and one of them must play a push out shot where can you push out that the opponent does not know the best response, either offense or defense.

The bulk of the time a proper push out strategy requires you to push out to a kick shot that possesses some chance in an effort to not give your opponent the upper hand by allowing them to have the first good shot. This rule is problematic for two good reasons. First to grow our sport and bring new players along simple straight forward rules make sense, one foul ball in hand. This is readily explained and understood but under today's rule we must then go on to explain except on the first shot after the break a player can declare a push out ( foul shot ) and not suffer a penalty.

At this point you have now lost all levels of easy comprehension of the rules and any idea regarding the strategy of using this option. You could achieve the same level of general comprehension if you were to describe this rule mutation in Latin. Secondly the big area of luck in 9-ball is not in the first shot after the break shot. Also it is not the amount of balls that find a pocket unexpectedly. The biggest element of luck among good players occurs when someone misses the intended shot and inadvertently leaves a tough shot for the opponent by accident. The reason people today play 9-ball is the fast pace and the turns of fortunes that occur when the 9-ball is the only ball that scores.

The very nature of this game is predicated on a combination of luck and skill that has created widespread appeal. Get rid of the silly old rule that only serves to unnecessarily complicate today's game of choice. This rule has only been left in because "that's the way we have always played and why would we change?" Generally people are resistant to change but I feel that an update and streamlining of the rules would be a benefit to everyone long-term.

<hr /></blockquote>

At first I didnt agree with this viewpoint, but the more I think about it the more I think there may be something to it.

Whats your view?

Woody

Wally_in_Cincy
01-29-2005, 08:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mark Wilson:</font><hr>

...to grow our sport and bring new players along simple straight forward rules make sense, one foul ball in hand. This is readily explained and understood but under today's rule we must then go on to explain except on the first shot after the break a player can declare a push out ( foul shot ) and not suffer a penalty.

At this point you have now lost all levels of easy comprehension of the rules...

<hr /></blockquote>

I have to respectfully disagree. I don't think it's that hard to understand.

[ QUOTE ]
Originally it was a means to help eliminate luck from the unfortunate player that does not have a good shot after the break. <hr /></blockquote>

There's too much luck in 9-ball as it is. Why add more by eliminating the pushout?

GeraldG
01-29-2005, 09:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mark Wilson:</font><hr>

...to grow our sport and bring new players along simple straight forward rules make sense, one foul ball in hand. This is readily explained and understood but under today's rule we must then go on to explain except on the first shot after the break a player can declare a push out ( foul shot ) and not suffer a penalty.

At this point you have now lost all levels of easy comprehension of the rules...

<hr /></blockquote>

I have to respectfully disagree. I don't think it's that hard to understand.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Originally it was a means to help eliminate luck from the unfortunate player that does not have a good shot after the break. <hr /></blockquote>

There's too much luck in 9-ball as it is. Why add more by eliminating the pushout? <hr /></blockquote>

I agree. If the APA wants to really level they playing field, I think they should allow push-out and eliminate wins on "lucked-in" 9-balls after the break. A win by 9-ball on the break is OK, but ironically doesn't mean much in APA format. IMHO winning by "lucking in" a 9-ball during the game only serves to encourage players to sling at the 9-ball at every opportunity hoping it will go in a pocket somewhere. I think 9-ball combos should be called. APA format already takes enough advantage away from the better players with the handicaps. If you really want to help the newer players learn, make them develop some skills instead of relying on luck.

I also don't see what's so hard to understand about pushing out. If anything it makes newer players start thinking about strategy. The push-out has it's own strategies to think about.

Barbara
01-29-2005, 09:09 AM
woody,

I like the push-out after the break. Why should I be penalized for making a ball on the break and then not being able to see my OB?

Also, it's a tactical shot, too. One time, playing in the NJ State 9-ball Championships, I broke, made a ball, and pushed out to this straight-in shot on the one. Note where the two is.

Show me the Wei (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/)

START(
%Ad8H8%BE1M2%CL8U9%DO8G4%ER0N2%FR6P4%GI7I6%IO8N5%P U8J8

)END

My opponent passed on the shot and gave me back the table. So I pocketed the one and played a one-pocket shot on the two and hooked her behind the cluster of balls for this:

START(
%At1B6%Bs0R0%CL8U9%DO8G4%ER0N2%FR6P4%GI7I6%IO8N5%P C7L0%WC7K5
%X`0I1%Ya1[5%ZC5L5%[s0S6%\a2[5
)END

She missed the kick.

Don't take away my push-out shot!

Barbara

Sid_Vicious
01-29-2005, 10:01 AM
The push is an equalizer, especially in lower levels of league. Imagine if you were to draw the top seed in a local league or tournament match and they break and leave the table wide open but hook the weaker player badly. Chances are that the one will be missed and the sell-out will begin, culminating in "no fun" at all(fun is the key) for the struggling novice player. No I say leave the push, and for a secondary reason, even between two educated players, the push shows their thinking power of where to place the shot. If they do a half-assed job and leave a strategical safety to be played, then we, the spectator now see some real offense in a defensive response, turning the tables back to the hook which began the whole scenario.

I can accept that rule change though, if it were to happen. My mentor and I never play rollouts when we play, and it is the way I like it even though he dominates most of the games in general. I'll play anyone I usually play with if they pose "no rollouts" as a condition or a spot advantage. Hell I can jump out of most any bad position that the break may give me, and kicking is something I ain't that bad at today after playing with the format of no rollouts.

I feel that the professionals should possibly not play rollout, and I'll also add that I feel they should play "intentional pockets" as well. Slop in the pro ranks is atrocious IMPO, and is expendable...sid

Deeman2
01-29-2005, 10:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> woody,

I like the push-out after the break. Why should I be penalized for making a ball on the break and then not being able to see my OB?

Also, it's a tactical shot, too. Barbara


<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Barbara,

I agree with you. Why further penalize the better playing and better thinking player?

The root of this is that we are playing the wrong game for our sport to be the best test. I'll get some heat here but this would not be an issue with 14.1. Maybe the answer in the long run is call shot nine ball. Now that would separate the players. Of course, I realize that many would probably go bowling instead of playing in leagues/tournaments. But if they can't learn a simple rule of the push out, maybe they should.

Deeman </font color>

ceebee
01-29-2005, 10:51 AM
I like 10 Ball with a stipulation that the "10 on the break" does not count as a win. The game ball becomes the 9 ball. Breaking a 10 ball rack is much more complex..

I also liked "2-shot rollout". That nips the ball-in-hand business in the butt. Players with superior "safety skills" lose this advantage wth "2-shot rollout". The game goes back to the days of shotmaking &amp; scrambling. If you can't get out, you probably won't like this set of rules either.

Ball-in-hand has changed the game. The 3 foul rule makes that scenario even worse. Remember, you can play any game you choose, at your your pool room.

Troy
01-29-2005, 11:25 AM
I agree with not punishing the breaker.
There's as guy here who just loves to fly the 9 on every shot. Now, whenever he matches up most opponents require him to call the 9 and he can barely win a game or two in a race to 5... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr>I like the push-out after the break. Why should I be penalized for making a ball on the break and then not being able to see my OB? <hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>
...Maybe the answer in the long run is call shot nine ball. <hr /></blockquote>

woody_968
01-29-2005, 11:29 AM
Some great statements so far, and pretty much what I would expect from most of the players.

My thoughts are the rules should be consistent throughout the game and this brings into question some of the views that we have on 9ball.

I agree that it would be a pain to see a player break a rack wide open, but hook the incoming player possibly giving the breaker ball in hand. But this is what can happen when someone misses the one ball and lucks a safty. Rolls are a BIG part of nine ball and I dont know that its right to say you can push out if your accidentaly hooked on the first shot of the game, but not at any other time.

I agree with Sid that playing slop in pro ranks (or any for that matter) stinks, but again where do you draw the line. The way the pros are playing call 9ball to me is a joke. If I luck in the 9ball I dont win, but if I luck in the 8ball with shape on the 9 I do win. That just isnt right and does not give consistency to the rules.

Playing call pocket on all the balls would take care of some of this, but does not cover the fact that more games are won by lucky leaves instead of slopping balls in.

IMO I think call shot 9ball with the old two foul rule would be the most consistent ruleset.

Of course the more I learn about 14.1 and one pocket the less I like 9ball /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

And to the person that said they would catch heat for saying the pros should be playing 14.1, you wont catch any heat from me because I TOTALLY agree /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

BCgirl
01-29-2005, 01:33 PM
I agree with the comment re. the inconsistencies in the called-9-ball rule. It has also resulted in some fairly ridiculous loss-of-game scenarios with a legitimately pocketed 9-ball. I agree that it's better to play called-pocket on all shots.

I think called-shot detracts from the game. For example, where a ball next to the pocket gives a wider pocket size, opening up a difficult bank, this would be lost. When a real fast player is in full swing, I don't want to see that flow interrupted by "3 ball, off the rail, and the 8, corner pocket". You'd see 9-ball descend to the level of bar 8-ball. Nor would I want to see the ref's abuse the rule in the way that I've seen the shot-clock rule used to hound particular players.

I do like the push-out after the break. It's a thinking-person's shot, a gamble, and a challenge, all at the same time. You see guys like Reyes pushing to full hook with an incredible kick-safety, that his opponent just didn't see. Or Busty's jump shot challenge to Strickland, where S passes and Busty runs out.

As for eliminating the push-out rule because it's too much for beginners to grasp, I always think that the best handicap rule is one that adds to the game, or encourages the lesser player to think about shot choice, or strategy. The object should be to increase the challenge to the better player, rather than to go easy on the weaker one.

To me, ball in hand is far superior to the two-shot rule, that's still played in UK 8-ball. But, then, I've never had anyone explain the two-shot rule in a way that made any sense to me, so maybe you can explain the tournament version of this rule.

BCgirl

jjinfla
01-29-2005, 03:40 PM
Barbara,

It completely mystyfies me why your opponent did not take the shot on the 1 ball. You must have been playing the one person in a 100 who decided to pass on that shot.

I have another option for the push out. Give the push out option ONLY to the incoming player. If the breaker makes a ball on the break and is hooked then that is his/her own fault and should have to take the shot. If a breaker does not make a ball on the break but hooks the opponent then why should the opponent be penalized for the breaker's bad break? The incoming player should be given the push out option.

About a year ago I was playing in a Vegas qualifying match and got down to the finals and had to play a 9. I was a new 6 at the time. This guy could really shoot but for some reason he was having a lot of trouble with his breaks. He never made a ball on the break and when I came to the table I was right up against another ball with no chance to make contact with the 1. It was just bad rolls for me. So he gets BIH and has a cosmo. After the first few breaks it became comical.

I really don't think that not having a push shot helps the weaker player. Simply if you have two players and they each get a BIH the better player will make more balls with that BIH opportunity and play the better safe when he runs out of shots than the weaker player will. So considering that I think the no BIH rule actually favors the better player.

Send e-mails to the APA. They will answer you. And most likely be PO'ed at me. LOL.

Jake

Troy
01-29-2005, 03:59 PM
I would hope "call shot" does NOT degrade to the Bar 8-ball level.
Call pocket is sufficient IMO.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BCgirl:</font><hr>
I think called-shot detracts from the game. For example,....I don't want to see..."3 ball, off the rail, and the 8, corner pocket". You'd see 9-ball descend to the level of bar 8-ball.

BCgirl <hr /></blockquote>

Barbara
01-29-2005, 04:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Barbara,

It completely mystyfies me why your opponent did not take the shot on the 1 ball. You must have been playing the one person in a 100 who decided to pass on that shot.

<font color="blue">Jake, it was against a foreigner who doesn't know what the game One Pocket is.</font color>

I have another option for the push out. Give the push out option ONLY to the incoming player. If the breaker makes a ball on the break and is hooked then that is his/her own fault and should have to take the shot.

<font color="blue">But why should I be penalized for making a ball on the break and being hooked on my OB?</font color>

If a breaker does not make a ball on the break but hooks the opponent then why should the opponent be penalized for the breaker's bad break? The incoming player should be given the push out option.

<font color="blue">The Push-Out shot is right after the break, regardless of whether the breaker made a ball on the break. In APA, both players are penalized for this situation.</font color>

About a year ago I was playing in a Vegas qualifying match and got down to the finals and had to play a 9. I was a new 6 at the time. This guy could really shoot but for some reason he was having a lot of trouble with his breaks. He never made a ball on the break and when I came to the table I was right up against another ball with no chance to make contact with the 1. It was just bad rolls for me. So he gets BIH and has a cosmo. After the first few breaks it became comical.

<font color="blue">Do you really think this was "coincidence"? I'll bet money he knew what he was doing.</font color>

I really don't think that not having a push shot helps the weaker player. Simply if you have two players and they each get a BIH the better player will make more balls with that BIH opportunity and play the better safe when he runs out of shots than the weaker player will. So considering that I think the no BIH rule actually favors the better player.

Send e-mails to the APA. They will answer you. And most likely be PO'ed at me. LOL.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for the info, Jake.

Barbara

woody_968
01-31-2005, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Barbara,

why should the opponent be penalized for the breaker's bad break? <hr /></blockquote>

Why shouldnt the opponent be penalized just because it is after the break? If a player misses on the 3 ball and hooks his opponent, his opponent is penalized for the bad shot on the 3 ball. Sadly its a part of nine ball.

I dont disagree with your statement, but I dont have a good answer for the obove question either /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

LARRY_BOY
02-01-2005, 09:42 AM
yes.....