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wolfdancer
01-29-2005, 11:27 AM
Wally, I haven't read your Chile post yet, but there is
an ongoing discussion on reform, over at "The Motley Fool"
site...and Chile's system is mentioned, somewhat negatively.
http://boards.fool.com/Messages.asp?bid=100168
If that link doesn't work...www.fool.com/ then discussion boards.
I've lost the link to an article that pointed out a few
concerns
what would actually happen to the value of stocks
do you lose the employer contribution?
and the one I found most interesting....in a pool of say 100
people, around 3 would be alive in their mid 90's...so the payments could be allocated so that the survivers would still be able to draw from the fund. In an ind. investment, everyone would have to draw down their funds, to allow for them living to that age.
It's a very complex issue...

Wally_in_Cincy
01-29-2005, 12:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>

It's a very complex issue... <hr /></blockquote>

Yes it is /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

thanks

mred477
01-31-2005, 08:14 PM
If you're going to have privatization, why can't I just keep my money and invest it as I see fit? Some people will buy cars and houses and take vacations, but you know what? That's not my problem. It may seem mean, but as welfare reform under Clinton proved, when there is the threat of the giveaways ending, everyone is better off. I don't want to see old people in the streets, but at some point, shouldn't everyone have to take responsibility for their decisions? And where in the Constitution does it say that the government must provide retirement entitlements to all, whether they need it or not? JMHO.

Will (can you tell I'm a strict constructionist?)

wolfdancer
01-31-2005, 08:44 PM
So you think that the SS fund is charity...even though working people pay into it for thier entire work span, and the fund would have had a surplus, if it wasn't raided by every admin.
I also once read where the avg. retiree draws only 18 checks before....well "death and taxes"
It seems more like an ins. policy to me....and there's better deals out there.

mred477
02-01-2005, 08:45 PM
No...my belief is that the system is a scam. I bristle at the government telling me that they can spend or save my money better than I can. Instead of educating people about saving, they tell them "you don't need to save, we'll take care of you".

Places in Texas privatized their retirement accounts years ago, before the Federal Gov't disallowed communities to withdraw from social security. Today, those retirement accounts generate a higher rate of return and are passed on after a person dies because they own them.

In general, I'd just like to see politicians do something about the current system. At 23, I'm not going to see a dollar from social security, so as one of the "working people" you spoke of, I get screwed while those who already paid in get screwed too (1% rates of return). In addition, the system is racially biased in that white women live considerably longer than black men.

I guess I just don't understand why the system can't be need based. I believe that would encompass the spirit of the original program.

Will

Rich R.
02-02-2005, 04:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mred477:</font><hr> If you're going to have privatization, why can't I just keep my money and invest it as I see fit? <hr /></blockquote>
Because, unless you are extremely wealthy, after a few years of retirement, your money would be all gone and you would be homeless and eating garbage.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mred477:</font><hr>when there is the threat of the giveaways ending, everyone is better off. <hr /></blockquote>
You obviously do not know a lot about Social Security. It is not a giveaway program.

I'm sure you have car insurance, maybe homeowners insurance and possibly some life insurance. Social Security is nothing more than an insurance policy. It is meant to insure and supplement your retirement income. It was never meant to be your sole retirement income. It also insures that you will have a basic income, for you and your family, if you are ever unfortunate and become disabled.

If you take the money you pay into Social Security and add a reasonable rate of return, your money would still only last you for a few years, after your retire. Thats where the insurance part of it comes in. In its most simplistic form, Social Security makes money from those who, pay into the system, and never get to collect benefts. That enables them to pay benefits to others, long after their own contributions would have run out.
Of course, young people comming into the system also help keep things going.

You may not realize it, but Social Security is the best government program you have working for you.
Now, just tell the people in Congress to stop screwing with it and everything will be fine.

Gayle in MD
02-02-2005, 05:04 AM
Tap Tap Tap! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Good post Rich, You're right on the money!

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
02-02-2005, 07:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure you have car insurance, maybe homeowners insurance and possibly some life insurance. Social Security is nothing more than an insurance policy. <hr /></blockquote> I don't remember my car insurance company telling me that they are pleased I continue to pay, but I should be ready to get screwed when it is time to collect.

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, young people comming into the system also help keep things going. <hr /></blockquote> Yeah, they are just told don't ever think about collecting when it is their turn to retire.

[ QUOTE ]
You may not realize it, but Social Security is the best government program you have working for you.
Now, just tell the people in Congress to stop screwing with it and everything will be fine. <hr /></blockquote> When Congress stops screwing with it will be the day it is abolished. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif That is like free money for these people.

eg8r

Rich R.
02-02-2005, 07:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I'm sure you have car insurance, maybe homeowners insurance and possibly some life insurance. Social Security is nothing more than an insurance policy. <hr /></blockquote> I don't remember my car insurance company telling me that they are pleased I continue to pay, but I should be ready to get screwed when it is time to collect.

<font color="red">Oh, really?????
Just as an experiment, go out an total your car.
I'm sure your insurance company will say, "That's alright Ed, we will replace it, right away. And don't worry, we will not be raising your premiums. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Of course, young people comming into the system also help keep things going. <hr /></blockquote> Yeah, they are just told don't ever think about collecting when it is their turn to retire.
<font color="red">If Congress stops increasing benefits, without funding those increases, the system will be fine. </font color>
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
You may not realize it, but Social Security is the best government program you have working for you.
Now, just tell the people in Congress to stop screwing with it and everything will be fine. <hr /></blockquote> When Congress stops screwing with it will be the day it is abolished. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif That is like free money for these people.
<font color="red">They are your elected officials. Tell them about it or elect someone else. The problem is not the system. </font color>

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
02-02-2005, 10:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>
...Social Security makes money from those who pay into the system and never get to collect benefts...

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah. Like smokers /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Smokers actually save money for society in the long run. They pay more taxes, they die younger.

eg8r
02-02-2005, 11:08 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, really?????
Just as an experiment, go out an total your car.
I'm sure your insurance company will say, "That's alright Ed, we will replace it, right away. And don't worry, we will not be raising your premiums. <hr /></blockquote> Do you not understand the difference between paying a little more but getting your car back, and paying in the same and getting NOTHING???? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ QUOTE ]
If Congress stops increasing benefits, without funding those increases, the system will be fine. <hr /></blockquote> What if, what if, what if. It does not matter. If congress would keep their hands out of the money we would be better off. This still does not change the fact, new young employees are told they have to pay in, and there is zero gaurantee they will collect in the end.

[ QUOTE ]
They are your elected officials. Tell them about it or elect someone else. The problem is not the system.
<hr /></blockquote> Quite wrong. Only a few are MY elected officials, and they have heard about it. You are much much closer to retirement than I so I can understand your vehement defense of the program. You will benefit, and there is no gaurantee I will.

eg8r

Rich R.
02-02-2005, 11:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> You are much much closer to retirement than I so I can understand your vehement defense of the program. You will benefit, and there is no gaurantee I will.
<hr /></blockquote>
Well, your wrong again Ed. You assume a lot.
Although I may be closer to retirement, than you, I do not qualify or Social Security. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I wish I did, and I may, in the future.

DickLeonard
02-03-2005, 07:02 AM
Mred the only thing I have to say on this post is no Law has ever been passed that benefited a poor man.####

DickLeonard
02-03-2005, 07:19 AM
eg8r we all know that G.B has Ken Lay waiting in the wings to head the new plan. When Ken gets arrested that investment scam/ssplan might be easier to swallow.

What I find hard to believe in the Great U.S. a man can get sentenced to 20 to life for stealing $16 on his third offence and Corporate thieves get away with destroying thousands of familes 401ks and nothing is done.

I listen and read of the Big Men of Texas but I know this if Ken was in NYC he would have been dead hours after that news hit.

Remember this name Elliot Spitzer who will be the next Gov of NY and the first Jewish man to run for president. His strong point is he is making the Corporations pay for their crimes. One Insurance company just settled for 850 million dolars.

His take on the plan is that the Financial Market is to corrupt to be given trust of that influx of money.####

Qtec
02-03-2005, 07:28 AM
The proposals:
¶Beginning in 2009, workers could invest up to 4 percent of their wages in individual investment accounts up to $1,000 a year initially. The maximum contribution would rise by at least $100 a year afterward.

¶The program would be phased in. In 2009, this option would be available to workers born between 1950 and 1965; in 2010, workers born as late as 1978 could participate; and beginning in 2011, all those born after 1949 would be eligible.

¶Account holders would have to choose from a small menu of diversified stock and bond funds with varying degrees of risk, similar to the Thrift Savings Plan available to federal government workers.

¶The personal accounts would be administered by the government; private companies would manage the investment funds under contract with the government.

¶No withdrawals would be permitted before retirement.

¶When workers retired, most would be required to use at least part of their accounts to buy from the government lifetime annuities, financial instruments that provide a guaranteed monthly payment for life but that expire at death. Despite Mr. Bush's declaration that money in the accounts could be passed on to children and grandchildren, the principal of an annuity cannot be inherited.

¶Money left over after the annuities were purchased would belong to retirees to spend or invest as they wished and could be bequeathed.

Q

eg8r
02-03-2005, 09:55 AM
What does your post have to do with anything in my post?

eg8r

wolfdancer
02-03-2005, 11:22 AM
Good post!!!....
As I noted here before...there is a guy now serving a life sentance in Ca. whose third offense, was taking the written part of the driver's license test for his cousin, who is just
learning English.....they needed the license for get hired as roofers.
And then Ken Lay...
Well, Michael Milken is now a "philanthropist, financier, medical research innovator,etc"....www.mikemilken.com/
Ten years from now, that Hispanic guy will still be in prison, and Ken Lay will have bought a new image for himself.

wolfdancer
02-03-2005, 11:28 AM
"What does your post have to do with anything in my post?"

Eg8r....most people don't want to have anything to do with your posts....hey, me neither...why am I responding?
Is there an "Eg8r anonymous", 12 step program I can join?

eg8r
02-03-2005, 11:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]
most people don't want to have anything to do with your posts....hey, me neither...why am I responding? <hr /></blockquote> There is a trend here, I post something, you come on and say nothing of importance or just to bad mouth something, then I rebut, then you make a post saying you are no longer going to reply. I think it is time for you to make a grown up decision and figure out exactly what the best approach will be for your future replies. I could make it easy by saying, choose to reply or choose not to, but being an adult go ahead make the decision yourself. Just please quit acting like a child.

My post to #### was not to ask him if he "wants" to have anything to do with my posts, I was commenting on his subject matter in response to my post. If that simple point is not clear, just ask. My goodness, if you were going to try and be witty, at least have some understanding of the subject.

eg8r &lt;~~~believes WD is addicted to my posts /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

DickLeonard
02-03-2005, 11:45 AM
eg8rI am under orders to upset your daily life. I am actually rooting for you to have your nest egg swindled like the Enron employees.####

DickLeonard
02-03-2005, 11:52 AM
eg8r I will be honest, any posts that are co-mingled with the post they are answering I don't waste my time reading.

But you should read "None Dare Call it Conspiracy"before you want to jump into anything that the Government has planned for you.####

wolfdancer
02-03-2005, 12:22 PM
I love it when you talk dirty to me....

"eg8r &lt;~~~believes WD is addicted to my posts"

Actually I'm attracted/repelled by the pompous tone
of your posts.

Pompous---

1. Characterized by excessive self-esteem or exaggerated dignity; pretentious: pompous officials who enjoy giving orders.
2. Full of high-sounding phrases; bombastic: a pompous proclamation.

BUT.....cheer up!!!....I think Highsea had the right idea, and I might just follow suit.

DickLeonard
02-03-2005, 12:55 PM
Wolfdancer is there a legal fund for that guy? Maybe the coast should run a benefit pool tourney for him.####

eg8r
02-03-2005, 01:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
eg8rI am under orders to upset your daily life. I am actually rooting for you to have your nest egg swindled like the Enron employees.#### <hr /></blockquote> No problem, all orderlies have their duties. You just keep living up to your name. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif As far as upseting my daily life, keep it up. You are my enjoyment.

eg8r

eg8r
02-03-2005, 01:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
BUT.....cheer up!!!....I think Highsea had the right idea, and I might just follow suit. <hr /></blockquote> Whatever John Kerry.

eg8r

mred477
02-05-2005, 10:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Because, unless you are extremely wealthy, after a few years of retirement, your money would be all gone and you would be homeless and eating garbage.
<hr /></blockquote>

Now, I'm no economist, but I just did a quick calculation, and if someone worked from age 25-65, making $30k/year and was able to save before taxes their 7.5% SS tax and invested it, making a 5% rate of return compounded annually(which is really conservative), at the end of 40 years, they would have a little less than $272,000. That's 9 more years with a $30k income. Someone who makes $40k and does the same thing would have $362,000...and it's HIS/HER money!

[ QUOTE ]
Social Security is nothing more than an insurance policy. It is meant to insure and supplement your retirement income. It was never meant to be your sole retirement income. <hr /></blockquote>

My point is that if you were allowed to invest the money into an account, you would have your own insurance policy, with no one else holding the purse strings. Obviously, we can't get rid of the entire system because some people are depending on it at this time, but slowly phasing it out and teaching people to be responsible for their actions is the only way it won't go bankrupt as society has less workers and more retirees.

Will

Rich R.
02-06-2005, 08:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mred477:</font><hr> Now, I'm no economist, but I just did a quick calculation, and if someone worked from age 25-65, making $30k/year and was able to save before taxes their 7.5% SS tax and invested it, making a 5% rate of return compounded annually(which is really conservative), at the end of 40 years, they would have a little less than $272,000. That's 9 more years with a $30k income. Someone who makes $40k and does the same thing would have $362,000...and it's HIS/HER money!
<hr /></blockquote>
I am certainly not an investment wiz, but in light of the past years of poor stock market performance and possible losses, I think your steady 5% return is optomistic.
However, for the sake of discussion, let's assume you are correct.

Let's also assume you are blessed with good health. What do you do, after 9 years, when your money runs out?

I also have to ask what happens to you, in a bad investment year, when your investments are losing money?

mred477
02-06-2005, 02:38 PM
If you invest in a 10 year CD, you are guaranteed 3.5% return, compounded monthly (at least at Bank of America). No risk of loss in the stock market there unless Bank of America goes under. Not exactly 5% either, but you do have to incur some risk to ever make any money, but I figured I'd point out a risk free scenario (3.5% still better than the current 1%, and you get to pass the money on to a family member instead of it being the government's money).

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do, after 9 years, when your money runs out?
<hr /></blockquote>

I'm not proposing that someone should only invest the money that will be used for SS. I'm in favor of everyone investing in a 401k program if they have the chance, or an IRA if their employer does not offer a 401k. I simply wanted to point out that better things could be done with SS money if the individual were given ownership of that money. A person could spend that money, invest it in the stock market, in a CD, or just stuff it under the mattress. The point is that it's THEIR money. People take better care of things that are theirs...which is why very few people take notice of how the politicians raid the "trust fund". If the government came in and said they were confiscating 401k plans to widen roads in Idaho, you can bet the outrage would be palpable.

Will

Rich R.
02-07-2005, 04:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mred477:</font><hr> If you invest in a 10 year CD, you are guaranteed 3.5% return, compounded monthly (at least at Bank of America). No risk of loss in the stock market there unless Bank of America goes under. Not exactly 5% either, but you do have to incur some risk to ever make any money, but I figured I'd point out a risk free scenario (3.5% still better than the current 1%, and you get to pass the money on to a family member instead of it being the government's money). <hr /></blockquote>
I'm sorry, bur your senario still doesn't float.

Whether at 3.5%, or the previously mentioned 5%, return, you would have to have enough invested to be able to live off of the return and not touch the principle. This is especially true, if you are investing in a 10 CD, because you can not touch the principle, without penalties.

Going back to your original senario, it is highly unlikely that anyone who had a $30K to $40K per year income job, would have enough money laying around to invest and be able to live off of the return, alone.
Most people in that income range are living on pay by pay basis and are lucky to have any retirement savings at all, let alone the amount needed to be able to live off of the return.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mred477:</font><hr> The point is that it's THEIR money. People take better care of things that are theirs... <hr /></blockquote>
This isn't necessarily true. Some people will spend every dime they get their hands on.
Even if you don't let them get their hands on the money and force them to invest it, what guarantee is there that they won't invest in a bad company.
Making a bad investment could be worse than making no investment at all. At least, if there is no ivestment, there is no risk of loss.

My only point in all of this is that the president and congress must be extremely careful, when reforming SS. It is just too important and there are too many pit falls.
IMHO, letting people invest their SS money is not necessarily the best strategy.

DickLeonard
02-08-2005, 10:47 AM
This is the only time I am going to think today. I think we should put all Congressman/Senators/Boobs and Vice Boobs on Social Security. That should straighten out the system, I read where Senator Byrd and his wife will receive nearly 10,000,000 on the Congressional retirement system.

My brain is getting tired from all the garbage these idiots have given us and then we treat them like Royalty. Passing a lie detector test should be the only way for them to get their money. Just four Questions.
1 Did you ever take a bribe/or donation to your campaign to influence your vote.
2 Repeat question 1.
3 Did you ever start a war to help the oil/military complex so they could contribute more to your next campaign.
4 As a Christian man did you lower taxes for the wealthiest thereby insuring campaign funds beyond your wildest dreams, instead of raising up the poor man you chose the campaign dollars.####

eg8r
02-08-2005, 11:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
This is the only time I am going to think today. I think we should put all Congressman/Senators/Boobs and Vice Boobs on Social Security. That should straighten out the system, <hr /></blockquote> I would go along with this 100%. I have a problem with those making decisions about a system in which they will not have to endure.

eg8r