View Full Version : "Tip" english definition
05-28-2002, 01:04 PM
This poll was previously posted within the "tip curvature" thread. That post has been deleted.
The second, because the tip has been offset one tip's width. I'd call the first picture a half-tip of left.
05-28-2002, 02:04 PM
Neither one. The center of the tip should at the center of the tip one tip from center of the ball.
Who's on first? LOL
05-28-2002, 03:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Neither one. The center of the tip should at the center of the tip one tip from center of the ball.
Who's on first? LOL <hr></blockquote>
Note: As Fred has mentioned in a following post, this is actually the same as the "b" option. It's just another way to think of the cue tip position.
05-28-2002, 03:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: heater451:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Neither one. The center of the tip should at the center of the tip one tip from center of the ball.
Who's on first? LOL <hr></blockquote>
<img src="http://heater451.home.mindspring.com/images/onetip_c.gif"> <hr></blockquote>..........
05-28-2002, 03:54 PM
Isn't that the same as 'B'?
05-28-2002, 03:58 PM
Yes, but the different visualization may help some 'see' it better.
(Thanks, for catching this, I've been on Dayquil/Nyquil for three days now, and I'm not that sharp right now. . . .)
05-28-2002, 05:10 PM
Have another look at "B", LOL!
05-30-2002, 06:13 AM
IMO, the results of this poll show why it is better, from a communication standpoint, to refer to tip offset as the distance from the cue ball center line to the contact point, as measured in inches or mm.
for example, "I hit the CB with 1/4" right side,"
or "I miscue whenever I hit the CB with a 15 mm offset."
05-30-2002, 08:07 AM
B corresponds to my definition of one tip of side spin. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif
This is a silly question. Does anyone seriously believe that if he strikes the cue ball one millimeter too far to the left it will have a noticable effect the outcome. It may also depends on the diameter of the tip.
05-30-2002, 01:07 PM
Regarding communication and tip offsets:
I agree with you in principle Alfie. However, as I've said before, in practice, most (the majority?) of players use their cue as an aid in guaging the amount of sidespin that they apply. The only way to know the actual contact point used is to use a striped ball (or a marked training ball0 and measure the actual contact point eccentricity after the shot. We can't judge the actual contact point before hand, because the shaft and tip curcature obscure the intent.
For actual comparisons (to be accurate) I agree that we need to compare actual contact points. For practical useage (as in what do I look at before I make the shot?)we tend to use tip offsets.
05-30-2002, 01:10 PM
"It may also depend on the diameter of the tip."
Actually, if we are talking about actual contact points (not "tip diameter offsets") then no, it does not depend on the diameter of the tip.
05-30-2002, 01:11 PM
Good lord Joey. I have no idea what you just said!
-and I read it several times!
05-30-2002, 01:13 PM
I use "B" as my general useage.
I also think that it is the "correct" definition. But I digress...
05-30-2002, 01:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> in practice, most (the majority?) of players use their cue as an aid in guaging the amount of sidespin that they apply. The only way to know the actual contact point used is to use a striped ball (or a marked training ball0 and measure the actual contact point eccentricity after the shot. We can't judge the actual contact point before hand, because the shaft and tip curcature obscure the intent.<hr></blockquote>
IMO, if we can guestimate the distance in inches from the CB centerline to the cuestick centerline, we can guestimate plenty close enough the distance in inches from the CB centerline to the contact point.
How many significant figures did you think I was talking about? /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif
Alf- good at visualizing in 3-D and nitpicking.
05-30-2002, 05:03 PM
Quoted from CluelessJoey:
"The center of the tip should at the center of the tip one tip from center of the ball."
Tony, I took this to mean that the center of the tip [of the cue] should be at the center of the [imaginary] tip, [measured] from [the imaginary] tip [at] center of the ball.
Imagine a circle, indicating a tip (circumference) at the center of the cue ball, then move the right side of that circle to the left, until it is at the point where the left of the first circle position.
Or, what will probably make more sense: With a 12mm tip, "one tip" of english would put the cuetip center 12mm from the center of the cue ball--1/2 the tip diameter at the centerball point, plus 1/2 the tip diameter at the "one tip" point. (This of course, would mean "one tip" varies, dependent upon your cuetip measurement.)
Better yet, find my "C" graphic, somewhere in the thread. . . . /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif
05-30-2002, 05:09 PM
B is the only way I would describe a full tip from center. If you look at it from a pure measurement perspective, the center of the dotted tip is exactly ONE tips distance to the center of the tip to its left.
05-30-2002, 05:16 PM
After reading several replies, it also occurred to me that looking at the diagrams, compared to physically placing a cue tip 'on' the cue ball and moving it "one tip", may be strange to some folks.
If you figure that most people do like I just said, and set the tip and then move it, wouldn't it be realistic to expect most people to agree with "b"?
(Although I allude to physical measurement below in the thread, I like the way you put it, "If you look at it from a pure measurement perspective, the center of the dotted tip is exactly ONE tips distance to the center of the tip to its left." That makes the whole thing more sensible, and isn't as confusing as some of the stuff I came up with. . . .)
05-30-2002, 05:23 PM
After reading all the other posts, I just thought that it wasn't obvious. Then I was thinking width of the tip and bingo.. it came to me.. "B" is the only true answer from a measurement perspective.
I have a drill that I explain that needs two full tips of Top and Right english. I have to use a striped ball to show this from the distance from center (the hit leaves a chalk mark on the striped ball). Most players that shoot this drill only use ONE tip's distance from center. When they see my chalk mark on the striped ball (compared to theirs).. the comment is usally, "I can't hit the ball that far away from center, I'll miscue.." Its a tough drill.
Lots of stroke envolved.
05-30-2002, 05:33 PM
which works really well, because I have a mini meter stick that attaches to my ferrule. LOL. jk.
05-30-2002, 06:45 PM
After reading this thread I've decided to remove my tip and play w/o one. Sorry in advance /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif
05-31-2002, 12:31 AM
I figured that you were talking about 17 significant figures. Or there abouts....LOL!
-significantly speaking that is....
05-31-2002, 12:34 AM
Actually I did sort of get what he meant to say. I was just kidding him for producing one of the most obscure post to date. Lol!
-yep, a snooker players 1 tip from center sure is different from a pool players 1 tip from center....different tip sizes don't ya' know
Of course different cues shaft tip diameters would change the amount of offset when the offset is given in number of "tips". i.e. one tip, two tips.
However, as most pool cues have a 13 millimeter tip, I submit this be used as a standard for this analysis. If I'm not mistaken, 13 mm is 11.8 thousanths of an inch larger than 1/2" or about 20% less than 1/64th of an inch. Considering the tip to be 1/2" in diameter is adequate for consideration of the following analysis.
Also, different tip radii, i.e. nickle or dime, will affect the contact point for a given shaft offset, but this difference is minor compared to the difference in Diagrams A and B above.
Using Diagram B, two tips of offset would put the edge of the tip beyond the edge of the standard 2 1/4" ball. This can be easily seen by making a simply drawing a 2 1/4" line on a piece of paper, marking the center point, and 1/2" increments. You can draw it accurately in two dimensions if you have a compass and/or a circle drawing guide.
Therefore, it is unlikely if not impossible, to avoid a miscue with with two tips of Diagram B english.
Some instructors, for instance Grady Matthews, in his ONLY KICKS tape, specify the use of two tips of english. Therefore, I believe his meaning is more likely to be consistant with diagram A. I have begun empirically testing some of the shots on this tape; but have yet to establish repeated and verifyable results.
I think Jimmy Reid, on his NO TIME FOR NEGATIVE tape, specifies the use of two tips of english at some point also.
I recently read something from a pool expert/instructor whose name escapes me now specifying the use of three tips of english. Using diagram B, no part of the cue tip would even touch the cue ball using three tips of english.
I think diagram B makes more sense as it simply seems to fit the definition of moving over one tip better. However, it is obvious that some top players/ instructors are not using diagram B. I assume it is most likely they are using diagram A. It is also possible that they are using some intuitive measurement in their minds eye that corresponds to neither diagram.
I wish this confusing nomenclature would be standardized throughout the sport. Of course, that would take more of the mystery out of how to shoot pool. And how to shoot good pool, until the recent plethora of instructional books and tapes, has been shrouded in mystery for centuries.
Egg, I never relied to this post and am not about to read all of the replies. Diagrahm A is correct. If you cut off appx 1/3 of the tip in A that is where the tip contacts the c/b. Of course radius and diameter of the tip does make a difference. The same applies to diaghram B. Center is measured from the dead center of the c/b not an imaginary line around "the center" In your example of 1/2" tip diameter the blue line would be the outline of a center hit on the c/b. Any tip displacement from dead center is english. For instance hit a lag shot from end rail to end rail. Most the time the c/b never comes back straight, but people still claim they hit it center. Well the result doesn't lie. As an experiment hit with as much side, top or draw, especially draw and see, using an object with a circle around the number. See if you, I don't mean You necessarly, can hit on the line or outside the line around the number. This is over two tips or say 3 units of english.
That is a ton of english. IMO a lot of players do not know where c/b contact is/was or how much a small amount of english can effect the c/b travel especially after contact with a rail. Once again to play this game well, you need to hit the c/b exactly where you intend too. Plus have a good idea of how much a small, or large amount of english at different speeds affects the shot. I guess we all have our concept of english.
Many people will say that Mike Massey has a powerful stroke, I agree. What people should realize, plenty of others have the same powerful stroke. Technique and practicing those shots sure helps, but the end answer is he/they use all of the raius of the tip and c/b to produce such effect. They hit the c/b exactly where they aimed, and any more would be a miscue. On the other side the ones that can't, never get that far outside, stroke related issues etc.
Sorry to be so long winded on this. Everyone can choose to believe in their idea of english, if it produces positive feed back thats great. If not then it's time to examine english a litte more.
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