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View Full Version : PHENOLIC RESIN TIPS (BREAK & JUMP CUE TIPS)?



eburgslim
01-31-2005, 04:09 AM
I'm looking for feedback on the phenolic resin tips , how to put them on a cue (if it is different process than a normal leather tip ?) and how good are they for a jump cue or break cue ?

marek
01-31-2005, 05:17 AM
Hi!
From my experience you can put them on the same way you put on the normal leather tip. And you can definitelly tell the difference when breaking or jumping! "Must buy" choice!!!

christopheradams
01-31-2005, 06:27 AM
Anyone find that the miscue more with a phenolic tip? I hear they require no scuffing and can last a life time. I would definately like to try one out someday.

Sid_Vicious
01-31-2005, 06:33 AM
That will be a bear to install unless you have a lathe, damn hard to trim. It will be difficult to merely expect to adhere to a ferrule and not pop off, slow set epoxy is best. I install tips, but I won't even attempt the phenolics...sid

SecaucusFats
01-31-2005, 06:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote christopheradams:</font><hr> Anyone find that the miscue more with a phenolic tip? I hear they require no scuffing and can last a life time. I would definately like to try one out someday. <hr /></blockquote>

If you routinely use english on the break you should avoid phenolics because chances are real good that you will miscue. OTOH, if you don't use side-spin (english) when breaking (like me) you will love the results. Phenolics also work great for jumping.

I do scuff the phenolic tips on my break and break/jump cues I use sandpaper to put a cross-hatch pattern on the tip. I find that this helps the tip retain chalk better.

BTW my favorite phenolic tips are the ones I got from Joe Piccone in Florida. He sells them on e-bay.

stickman
01-31-2005, 08:24 AM
I'm impressed with the phenolic tips for jumping. I wouldn't have anything else. I agree that a lathe is the easiest way to trim one. QuickTite has worked well for me. I've not had a problem with them popping off. I've had more of a problem getting them off, it's tuff to cut of them off. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

mworkman
01-31-2005, 10:06 AM
I bought a pack of 3 on ebay for 6.95. I put one on my cuetech jump/break cue. It was 13mm to match my ferrell and it went on easy. I used a super glue gel. I started using it after only maybe 5 minutes and it still hasn't fallen off, and it's been a few months now. I also had one of those bungee stile jumpers which I sold to a buddy after I found out how nice my cuetech jumps with the new tip. It makes all the difference in the world for jumping. I thought it was just the stick as to why I couldn't jump as well with it, but it was the tip that made the difference. Not sure how much of a difference it makes on the break or not, but I would think it does make a difference on the break also.

Sid_Vicious
01-31-2005, 11:22 AM
How was the trim, did you shave it to ferrule-match without a lathe? I'll have an application for this knowledge if the answer is positive,,,now that my breaker was stolen, I'd like to get phenolic again on another one of my cues. Thing, I've had to pay for installs with the phenolic replacements and at least for today, I'm not going to get into more investment within my personal cues. BTW, I broke with my play cue the day my breaker walked off, just broke mediocre speed, and made something on the break most every time. I'm seriously wondering if using intended power on the break short is a detriment instead of an importance...sid

stickman
01-31-2005, 11:52 AM
Sid, I've found that I break the balls much better at less than warp speed. A phenolic tip on my break cue isn't necessary for that reason. If I have a combination jump/break then I'll use a phenolic.

Jim

DialUp
01-31-2005, 12:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> How was the trim, did you shave it to ferrule-match without a lathe? <hr /></blockquote>

I put mine on without a lathe. The tip was 14mm and the shaft is 13mm (they were out of 13mm tips). I just used a small metal file and worked my way around it. It came out perfect and no damage to the ferrule /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

mworkman
01-31-2005, 01:45 PM
Sid, I didn't use a lathe. The tips I bought were the same size as the ferrule. It lined up almost perfectly. The tips will never mushroom. I'm not as pickey on my break stick as I am with my playing stick, so I can live with some small inperfections. Also, I don't have anyone close by that can do professional installs, so I've learned to do what I can for myself.

mksmith713
01-31-2005, 05:59 PM
I have a way to trim phenolic tips that's almost fool proof.
I use this method on all my tips.
I wrap a piece of thin tape twice around the ferrule flush with the tip.
Then I turn the tip dowm with a small dremel sanding drum.
The tape keep the ferrule from getting nicked up.
I'm working on a home made jig to rotate the shaft so I can keep the dremel tool stationary. Less chance of mistakes that way.

So far, I've done about 15 tips using this method including 3 phenolic tips.
To burnish the sides of the tip, I use a joint pin (most sizes available from Atlas) in a power drill. The I screw the shaft on to the joint pin and use a nice piece of leather to burnish.
I burnish the shaft and side of the tip using this method and it works great.

TIP: If you have a 5/16-18 joint, that size theaded rod is available at most big chain hardware superstores.
It won't cost as much as Atlas charges either.
For other sizes, you have to get them elsewhere....:(

stickman
02-01-2005, 09:12 PM
Sid, Guess what? I put on a phenolic tip today with my old standby Quick Tite and the thing popped right off. These are a different brand than my usual. I tried again with the same results. I usually install the Ravens and put them on Ivor-X ferrules. You couldn't break one off with a vise. Today I put a tan colored fine weave linen reinforced phenolic, with a standard uncapped ferrule and the Quick Tite just wouldn't work. I guess some of them DO require epoxy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gifStick

marek
02-02-2005, 08:11 AM
Yeah, if you prefer no-english-break the phenolic tip will work great for you! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

SpiderMan
02-02-2005, 08:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> Sid, Guess what? I put on a phenolic tip today with my old standby Quick Tite and the thing popped right off. These are a different brand than my usual. I tried again with the same results. I usually install the Ravens and put them on Ivor-X ferrules. You couldn't break one off with a vise. Today I put a tan colored fine weave linen reinforced phenolic, with a standard uncapped ferrule and the Quick Tite just wouldn't work. I guess some of them DO require epoxy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif
/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gifStick <hr /></blockquote>

Stick,

It's not that the stuff won't adhere, the issue is with hardening. Epoxy hardens due to a chemical reaction, super-glue requires evaporation of solvents.

When you use super-glue to put on a leather tip, the volatile solvent can escape through the porous surface of the leather, allowing the glue to dry. For a semi-impervious material such as phenolic, the hardening process will be very much slowed. The outer edges of the joint, exposed to air, may dry quickly. Inside the joint, the glue will still be wet for quite a while. The "escape route" for evaporating solvents in this case is through the hardening glue at the edge of the joint. It's almost like still being in the tube, doesn't want to harden.

Maybe it would work if you put on the tip with super-glue and let it set for several days, but epoxy is more certain. The phenolic tips that worked with SG before probably hardened well enough around the edges to keep them on, and they didn't get knocked off before hardening in the center.

It's the same problem when using SG to attach a tip that has a base pad - very slow hardening. I've popped one off after five minutes and the glue still smelled fresh in the center.

SpiderMan

Popcorn
02-02-2005, 10:48 AM
I pasted this off the net but I believe it to be correct.
Quote
"Super glue is nothing more than the same type of two-part adhesive, only in its case the hardener is water. Even apparently dry surfaces have microscopic droplets of water adhering to them. When super glue comes in contact with these droplets they create the chemical reaction that causes the super glue to harden.

With this in mind, super glue should work best in humid areas and less well in very dry desert locations. Also, a wipe of both surfaces with a very slightly damp cloth may speed the adhesive's setting. Another idea would be to "huff" on the pieces as if they were a mirror you wanted to fog. This also explains why putting extra super glue on a surface doesn't help. Until it can absorb enough water vapor from the air it'll never harden."

I don't think you are correct because one of the things super glue is famous for is gluing non porous surfaces such as glass.

SpiderMan
02-02-2005, 11:41 AM
I tend to agree with you as I've heard that also, ie that moisture is a catalyst, but access to the "interior" of a joint (particularly when humidity is low) may still be the issue. Also, even cured super-glue is removed by solvents such as acetone, so I also believe that the aromatic volatiles do need to escape somehow.

Super-glue sticks well to non-porous surfaces, but it doesn't always "bond instantly". You can sometimes put two non-porous objects together (like a phenolic tip and a plastic ferrule), and still crack them apart a minute later. If this happens, you can quickly check the center of the "bonded" area and it will not be cured. It will also still smell strongly of solvent.

Another reason I believe that lack of solvent evaporation is a factor is that the process seems to be strongly affected by temperature. I recently bonded a padded tip to a ferrule using duro gel, and even after 2 minutes of clamping and about 5 minutes of waiting it pulled off in the Willard trimmer. I sniffed the joint and it still smelled strongly of solvent. The only thing that differed from my standard procedure was that the heat was off in my house - it was about 60 degrees instead of 72. In deference to the moisture issue, though, it is wintertime and humidity may also be lower than usual.

I guess the best example of bonding to glass is the use of a type of quick-gel to stick mirror brackets onto windshields, but they always use an accelerator compound rather than relying solely on exposure to the air (and/or moisture).

SpiderMan

Fred Agnir
02-02-2005, 12:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I don't think you are not correct because one of the things super glue is famous for is gluing non porous surfaces such as glass. <hr /></blockquote>The bonding process for super glue occurs at the microscopic surface roughness level. Porosity is not a factor for super glue as it is more of molecular bond rather than a mechanical bond.

Fred

Fred Agnir
02-02-2005, 12:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Another reason I believe that lack of solvent evaporation is a factor <hr /></blockquote>This isn't exactly right. The only reason ambient air would have any bearing on super glue curing is that there is moisture in the air. Being a moisture-cure product, super glue will "dry" (polymeric linking) exposed to moisture.

That is, there is no solvent evaporation in the super glue curing equation as there would be in ... solvent bonding or white glue bonding for that matter.

Fred &lt;~~~ just a slight nitpick, I guess

Popcorn
02-02-2005, 03:07 PM
I have used accelerators on tips with bad results. I think it may make the glue a little more brittle. It would not matter gluing something that will just sit on a shelf but a cue tip is beat around. I have had some come off and there was glue on both surfaces. It was as if the glue bond didn't fail but the glue it's self fractured.

SpiderMan
02-02-2005, 03:28 PM
Moisture in or solvent out, or perhaps both are a factor, whatever actually happens I'm certain that the curing/drying/hardening time for super-glue is very much affected by access to the open air. Leather-on-ferrule = quick dry; phenolic-on-ferrule = slow dry (edges first, then center).

Phenolic-on-ferrule will pop off if stressed too soon after glueing.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
02-02-2005, 03:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I have used accelerators on tips with bad results. I think it may make the glue a little more brittle. It would not matter gluing something that will just sit on a shelf but a cue tip is beat around. I have had some come off and there was glue on both surfaces. It was as if the glue bond didn't fail but the glue it's self fractured. <hr /></blockquote>

I have not tried the accelerators. I notice that they promote them at the Barringer's web site, though.

SpiderMan

buddha162
02-04-2005, 04:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
It's the same problem when using SG to attach a tip that has a base pad - very slow hardening. I've popped one off after five minutes and the glue still smelled fresh in the center.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Okay, it's very, very important that I understand this: are you saying that when glueing a fiber pad to the ferrule, the SG curing time is significantly longer than when glueing tip to ferrule?

For months I can't seem to figure out why ALL my tips have slight clicking sounds when striking the CB; none have popped off, but I can tell there's something wrong. In fact, it's starting to cause some mild paranoia because sometimes it clicks, sometimes it doesn't, and I'm starting to brace myself for the dreadful sound and lose focus while I'm down over a shot.

Please explain how long you wait until trimming a tip with fiber pads, and do you install the fiber pad first, wait for the glue to cure and then install tip, or do you follow some other procedure.

Thanks a ton,
Roger

Sid_Vicious
02-04-2005, 07:25 AM
Spidey installs several pads early and stages them, like an assembly line for days. I'd say an hour or two at a minimum, but I have gotten lucky with half hour intervals myself...sid~~~doen few installs compared to Spiderman though

SpiderMan
02-04-2005, 09:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
It's the same problem when using SG to attach a tip that has a base pad - very slow hardening. I've popped one off after five minutes and the glue still smelled fresh in the center.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Okay, it's very, very important that I understand this: are you saying that when glueing a fiber pad to the ferrule, the SG curing time is significantly longer than when glueing tip to ferrule?

For months I can't seem to figure out why ALL my tips have slight clicking sounds when striking the CB; none have popped off, but I can tell there's something wrong. In fact, it's starting to cause some mild paranoia because sometimes it clicks, sometimes it doesn't, and I'm starting to brace myself for the dreadful sound and lose focus while I'm down over a shot.

Please explain how long you wait until trimming a tip with fiber pads, and do you install the fiber pad first, wait for the glue to cure and then install tip, or do you follow some other procedure.
Thanks a ton,
Roger <hr /></blockquote>

Roger,

Yes, that has been my exact observation. When you glue two impervious materials together, the glue in the center of the joint can experience a condition similar to being "still in the tube", and harden very slowly. Whether the slowing is mainly due to blocking out of a humidity catalyst, or holding in of aromatics, or both, the phenomenon does definitely occur.

You won't necessarily know that this is happening because the edge glue will be hard, but if you use the tip you are moving and stressing the uncured area, making it weak. The tip might even pop off while trimming (if you're lucky), or while your customer is playing (if you're unlucky).

As Sid already posted, what I've taken to doing is pre-installing pads on a few tips and keeping them ready for those customers who desire a pad.

I've found that one easy way to do this is to put some double-sided tape on a block of wood, put down 5 or 10 pads (sanded side up), and stick the (sanded) tips to them. I then leave this block alone for (probably) much longer than necessary, since they are being made for future use anyway. What I mean is I come back and pull them off the tape the following day. This could of course be shortened because the sanded back of the tip doesn't "seal off" the glue in the same manner as would two impervious surfaces.

When I actually install the pre-padded tip onto a ferrule, I sand the back side of the pad (the one that was facing the tape), spread SG liberally over the entire backside, touch the glue-covered pad to the ferrule, pull it back and rotate a little (to ensure both surfaces are 100% wetted and reduce possibility of dry voids), then quickly re-set and clamp. I'm doing this in a Willard.

I hold clamping pressure on for several minutes and then carefully remove my hands so as not to disturb the joint. I don't try to trim a pad/ferrule glue joint for about 20 minutes minimum, and will wait longer if I have something else to busy myself. I've also seemed to notice that the necessary cure time is temperature-related (longer when cold), but as Popcorn and others pointed out this may be humidity- rather than temperature-related. Still, all chemical processes seem to be accelerated by temperature, so if it's cold in your work area you'd better give it extra time.

I then pre-trim in the Willard and finish the tip in my lathe.

When a repeat customer brings a padded tip back for replacement, I trim off the old tip and leave the pad if it looks good under the microscope. That way, I'm only re-doing the (much easier) tip-to-pad glue job.

I personally believe that the biggest mistakes made by users of super-glue are (1) not getting full coverage inside the joint and (2) allowing the work to be stressed or moved during the cure.

A common example of (1) is the guy who puts the glue in the middle of the tip and lets it "squeeze out" the sides when he presses it onto the ferrule. You can see glue come out all around and still have a dry spot within the joint. An example of (2) is the guy who puts the tip on, spends a few seconds positioning it, then inverts the shaft and mashes it on the floor, leaning on it for a minute or two while carrying on a conversation with bystanders.

Either of the above mistakes can result in the "cracked" tip noise you sometimes hear. You need good technique for consistent results.

SpiderMan

buddha162
02-05-2005, 06:06 AM
Spiderman,

Thank you soooooooo much. This is very very pertinent information for me.

Thanks again, you are my online tip-man, lol.

-Roger

Cueguy
04-30-2005, 05:48 PM
I have repaired and built cues for several years and am amazed at some of the postings about putting on tips, phenolic and leather. The trick to having tips stay on has little to do with "drying" since neither super glue or epoxy "dry". Super glue gel "duro" or "loctite" works great. Super glue sets by a catylist of having all oxygen pushed out. That means it doesn't work well if there is any spaces between the two surfaces. The glue side of the tip must be sanded perfectly flat. Most tips are concave on the bottom and leave a pocket of glue that won't harden because the surfaces aren't perfectly flush. Using a very fine file allows you to make the tip perfectly flat. Do not move the tip once it is pressed to the surface of the cue. If you move it, you allow oxygen to enter again. Before gluing, it helps after the tip is flat to make very, very small marks with a razor blade on both the tip surface and the surface of the ferule or pad. My tips don't come off and I have never had to hold a tip on more than a couple of minutes. I hope this helps you home repair guys.