PDA

View Full Version : Hustler's Night?



Deeman2
01-31-2005, 08:01 AM
Coming to this little town in Texas a few months ago, I was pleased to see so many little tournaments although they were mostly bar table deals. Practically every night there was a nice little event you could play and while not a hugh amount of money, they were fun and something to do. After a few weeks of playing, my own "home bar" asked me to only play on Saturday, their "Hustler's Night" so that others could win the week day tournaments. Fine, at first it was a winner take all $10 entry with about 16-24 people each saturday night and the two week night tourneys were $5 with about 12-16 people and payed a couple of spots so it was no big deal.

Now, the Saturday tournament has dwindled to six players and is not worth the time, money to play. The week night tournys has blown up to 24-30 in each one and the house is adding money making them the nice ones to play in. One of the two regular pool halls have gone to a format where if you win, you have to sit out the next week and the other have banned a few players as "Road Players" and will not let us participate! It's funny as it is not the other credible players who were complaining but the guys who couldn't win if only three people showed up! I still take my wife to the week night tournaments so she can contribute $5 to the tournament and get some experience but have everyone in there say, "Gee, I wish they would let you play." I'm considering doing a George Fels and just stop playing on bar tables and just go play straight pool by myself on the only nice nine footer this side of PettyPoint a few times a week.

Is this happening everywhere? I remember finishing like third and forth six times in a row at the Rack in Detroit and not whining about losing to some very good players! Is this more regional or am I just seeing natural selection at work? or am I just seeing what pool is today?

Your choices here seem to be dumping to be allowed to continue to participate, playing drunks for $10 a game or playing sober guys for $10 who quickly become drunks playing for $10!

Makes a guy wanna take up bowling!

Deeman
frustrated....

Vapros
01-31-2005, 08:37 AM
The tournaments you mention are obviously not championship events, but rather promotional competitions staged by the proprietor and intended to appeal to his customers and also to attract some new ones and give a boost to the billiard business. It's a common tool and widely used.

Nothing will bust such events as quickly as one or more players who are obviously better than most of the rest, and taking out the cash on a regular basis. If the proprietor is courteous when he gives you the news, you should not be insulted. His reason is easy to see. He wants to be able to continue the tournaments.

I think you have more options than the ones you noted, but that's a whole 'nother smoke. Texas is full of players who will give you action cold sober. Maybe you're not looking hard enough. Bowling is probably not your solution - they have a very good handicapping system, and know how to spread the money around.

ras314
01-31-2005, 08:39 AM
You might try what a guy does at our only bar's 8 ball tournament. He is a considerably better player than most anyone else and decided for every time he won a tournament he added a game he has to win. Then not winning starts the process over. For example if he wins one tournament he has to beat everyone two games. Two tournaments in a row means he has to win three games over each opponent. He started this himself (not the bar) so too many people wouldn't quit playing.

SpiderMan
01-31-2005, 08:52 AM
Probably the concern of the establishment or TD is participation. Most tournaments will go downhill if the same few people always win, particularly if they are sufficiently dominant that other players feel they have no chance.

You have to realize that, in the eyes of the sponsoring establishment, the tournament exists not as a venue for meaningful competition but to draw as many patrons as possible and keep them in the joint as long as possible. That goes double for added-money weekly tourneys. The bar is catering to the majority (the losers), not the minority (the winners). Anything that causes the losers to rethink coming out every week is bad, bad, news.

Dealing with this is a touchy situation. Some places I've played stack on handicaps based on winnings, others require sitting out a couple weeks for a win or one week for a place. And then there are others who handicap or bar "known" talent in a somewhat arbitrary fashion.

I used to play a very enjoyable Thursday-night tourney only a mile from home, but the progressive handicap system eventually made me feel I couldn't win unless my opponents choked and died, so I had to move on to another venue. The TD would add handicap every time you placed, and remove handicap after two winless (two-and-out) finishes. Since I could usually garner at least one win due to drawing an absolute idiot, sandbagging would be the only way my handicap would drop enough to compete with the average player. Rather than spend two evenings sandbagging, I found other places to play.

On the other hand, if you were the dominant player in this venue it is possible that you are barred as a result of a conspiracy. Perhaps the tourney is being milked by the next-lower-tier of players, and the establishment is going along or being hoodwinked by the TD. If that is the case, there's not much to be done other than take your business elsewhere.

SpiderMan

Qtec
01-31-2005, 09:00 AM
[ QUOTE ]
"Road Players" and will not let us participate! <hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

you know what they say DM,
" In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king". /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q

Tom_In_Cincy
01-31-2005, 10:05 AM
It is every pool players guarunteed right to whine about tournaments.
You got your's in.
Now go out and find those weekly OPEN tournaments for the better players, and quit those rinky dink... bar box tournys.

Good that you accompany your wife to those weekly bar box tournys.

Deeman2
01-31-2005, 10:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> It is every pool players guarunteed right to whine about tournaments.
You got your's in. <font color="blue"> And I feel much better Tom! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font color>
Now go out and find those weekly OPEN tournaments for the better players, and quit those rinky dink... bar box tournys. <font color="blue"> Easier said than done where I live. Dallas is just too far away for a single night tournament. Besides, the OPEN Tournaments around here become closed very quickly.. </font color>

Good that you accompany your wife to those weekly bar box tournys. <font color="blue"> Hey, that way I can watch and whine at the same time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman

Deeman2
01-31-2005, 10:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> The tournaments you mention are obviously not championship events, but rather promotional competitions staged by the proprietor and intended to appeal to his customers and also to attract some new ones and give a boost to the billiard business. It's a common tool and widely used. <font color="blue"> I agree but the whole concept is doomed to failure as the second tier players then dominate. The tournament I was speaking about is now dominated by another guy! He will, of course, soon be barred and the next guy will win. Is there not some benefti in keeping the level of pay up so the others will learn? Not sure.</font color>

Nothing will bust such events as quickly as one or more players who are obviously better than most of the rest, and taking out the cash on a regular basis. If the proprietor is courteous when he gives you the news, you should not be insulted. <font color="blue"> He was, I was not insulted, just frustrated. </font color> His reason is easy to see. He wants to be able to continue the tournaments. <font color="blue"> I hope they will as eventually they will be getting down to where my wife can win one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font color>

I think you have more options than the ones you noted, but that's a whole 'nother smoke. Texas is full of players who will give you action cold sober. <font color="blue"> Yes, I know a lot of them but while I do get action here, I like tournament play as well as I get old and senile. </font color> Maybe you're not looking hard enough. <font color="blue"> Came to Louisanna and found zilch. Wasted gas, wasted time and people wanting balls and balls before they even saw me play. </font color> Bowling is probably not your solution - they have a very good handicapping system, and know how to spread the money around. <font color="blue"> You have probably seen me bowl, I'd fit well into a handicap system...I must be permanently sandbagging there. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Hey, everyone has to rant on occasion. I know I can't change all this just wanted to air my frustration. I will pipe down on this for at least a year. Promise.

Where, in LA are you?
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Deeman

Deeman2
01-31-2005, 10:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> You might try what a guy does at our only bar's 8 ball tournament. He is a considerably better player than most anyone else and decided for every time he won a tournament he added a game he has to win. Then not winning starts the process over. For example if he wins one tournament he has to beat everyone two games. Two tournaments in a row means he has to win three games over each opponent. He started this himself (not the bar) so too many people wouldn't quit playing. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Thank-you, this seems like a good solution. I might have mentioned that me and another player both dumped in the last two Saturday night events to help grow the field but, as I said ealrier, the next guy in line won and the same guys who can't possibly win, are complaining as loudly about him.

This may be a thing that could work. I did offer to play the Friday night one one handed but that made a couple of the better players upset and so we will see what your idea offers. </font color>

Thanks,

Deeman

SPetty
01-31-2005, 11:20 AM
Hey RackBoy /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif,

I don't know nothin', so this might be stupid but... It seems that many pool players like to watch a game being played for money, and the more $ the better. At least that seems to be the case from what I read here.

Would the six top dogs want to up the ante? Hold a tournament limited to six or eight with a $50-$100 or even more buy-in. And only the top two cash. The little dogs wouldn't want to enter such a tourney, but the good players might appreciate it and it might even bring out some people you don't normally see around the small prize money tournaments.

But, for the proprieter, it might get the eating and drinking spectators to come into the pool room just to see and sweat the action. Win-Win-Win if it works.

Just a thought.

wolfdancer
01-31-2005, 11:34 AM
I think that bowling is the answer....and I'd be willing to trade my old ball....drilled for a left-hander....for your pool cue, which you will no longer need.

Rich R.
01-31-2005, 11:58 AM
SPetty, I like your idea. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Another benefit to the propietor would be that this small tournament would not tie up as many tables and he would still be able to do normal business. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Deeman could also move to Maryland.
To the best of my knowledge, there is a little weekly tournament, I know of, where some of the regulars are Ryan McCreesh, Mike Davis, Keith McCready and a few other mediocre players. I don't think they would complain to the management about Deeman. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Deeman2
01-31-2005, 12:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> SPetty, I like your idea. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Another benefit to the propietor would be that this small tournament would not tie up as many tables and he would still be able to do normal business. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Deeman could also move to Maryland.
To the best of my knowledge, there is a little weekly tournament, I know of, where some of the regulars are Ryan McCreesh, Mike Davis, Keith McCready and a few other mediocre players. I don't think they would complain to the management about Deeman. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I like SPetty's idea and will try it out on our regular group of whiners. And, If you are talking about the Baltimore Tourney, I did play in that, Ryan nor Keith complained about my entry and I didn't complain about having to play them. Unfortunately, they took advantage by being better players...and kicking my butt. Hey, I just got nervous driving through Towson, knowing Mike Segal grew up there. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif</font color>

Deeman
lived in York, didn't have any trouble finding trouble there....

Deeman2
01-31-2005, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> I don't know nothin', so this might be stupid but... It seems that many pool players like to watch a game being played for money, and the more $ the better. At least that seems to be the case from what I read here.

Would the six top dogs want to up the ante? Hold a tournament limited to six or eight with a $50-$100 or even more buy-in. And only the top two cash. The little dogs wouldn't want to enter such a tourney, but the good players might appreciate it and it might even bring out some people you don't normally see around the small prize money tournaments. <font color="blue">Great Idea. I should have just called you instead of posting this. I didn't mean for this to turn into a Deeman against the world thing. Heck, I want FL to spot me a ball or two.... </font color>

But, for the proprieter, it might get the eating and drinking spectators to come into the pool room just to see and sweat the action. Win-Win-Win if it works.

Just a thought. <font color="blue">Great thought... </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman2
01-31-2005, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
you know what they say DM,
" In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king". /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Q
There's a lot truth in what you sat (unless it's political). /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Here I am a player, in NYC I'm a rack boy! Hey, I know I'd be a Cosmo for you boys in the Netherlands.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

Deeman

Rich R.
02-01-2005, 04:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> If you are talking about the Baltimore Tourney, I did play in that, Ryan nor Keith complained about my entry and I didn't complain about having to play them. Unfortunately, they took advantage by being better players...and kicking my butt. Hey, I just got nervous driving through Towson, knowing Mike Segal grew up there. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif</font color> <hr /></blockquote>
I'm not sure if we are talking about the same tournament or not. The one I'm talking about is in Laurel, Maryland, which is between Baltimore and Washington. It is a cheap weekly tournament, but I guess the guys need something to do. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BTW, I'm not sure Ryan and Keith took advantage of you.
I'm sure you got all of the bad rolls. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

jjinfla
02-01-2005, 05:43 AM
As other people stated these local bar tournaments are there to drum up business for the bar not to help pool. The drunks that you criticize are the bar owner's bread and butter. They buy pitchers of beer - you buy one bottle of water. They come back week after week. They play for the fun of it and fellowship. You play for the top prize.

What I suggested to a local bar is that he spread out the prize money to six spots. The low top prize keeps away the very best players. Not worth their time. And when a few top players show up to steal the money he rigs the brackets. Puts the top players on the bottom half and the weaker ones on the top. That way top players eliminate themselves and the weaker players get to play longer - and spend more money.

But lately one bar here was bought out and he added $200 to the pot to start out the year. That attracted a lot of players. Especially the better ones. Now there is nothing added but for some reason he is getting more and more better players showing up. First it was the A players, then the local shortstop, and yesterday I heard that the local pro who plays in the Florida Pro Tour showed up. And he is getting 40 players on a saturday.

All these guys would have to give the table away if they played at the local pool hall where the tournaments are handicapped. Here they play straight up. Normally I would get the 6 and the last two from them. Here I have to play them straight up. But anything can happen in short races.
And the entry fee is only $5.

Don't know how long this will last. I haven't been there the last two weeks and will miss the next 4 due to health problems so maybe by then things will get back down to normal.

Jake

Deeman2
02-01-2005, 06:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> As other people stated these local bar tournaments are there to drum up business for the bar not to help pool. The drunks that you criticize are the bar owner's bread and butter. They buy pitchers of beer - you buy one bottle of water. They come back week after week. They play for the fun of it and fellowship. You play for the top prize. <font color="blue"> While sounding like the truth, this is not the case in East Texas. I pay for my cokes, the same price as the people carrying in their bottles. I also buy beer for my wife and, of course, for others as well. Net is: I spend more than the normal player. However, I do see your point in that we are seem as cherry pickers in a sense. Hey, I've let it go. </font color>

What I suggested to a local bar is that he spread out the prize money to six spots. The low top prize keeps away the very best players. Not worth their time. And when a few top players show up to steal the money he rigs the brackets. Puts the top players on the bottom half and the weaker ones on the top. That way top players eliminate themselves and the weaker players get to play longer - and spend more money. <font color="blue"> Thye do this now in a way, the lower tier players make it to the semi's before most meet a player. As they don't pay very deep, they still lose. We did recommend a new split (it's really not a money thing to me) but lower rung players rejected it, believing they are all "just this far away" from winning it all! </font color>

But lately one bar here was bought out and he added $200 to the pot to start out the year. That attracted a lot of players. Especially the better ones. Now there is nothing added but for some reason he is getting more and more better players showing up. First it was the A players, then the local shortstop, and yesterday I heard that the local pro who plays in the Florida Pro Tour showed up. And he is getting 40 players on a saturday. <font color="blue"> Nice, I would hope something like that would happen here. </font color>

All these guys would have to give the table away if they played at the local pool hall where the tournaments are handicapped. Here they play straight up. Normally I would get the 6 and the last two from them. Here I have to play them straight up. But anything can happen in short races.
And the entry fee is only $5. <font color="blue"> Why would anyone give up the chance to knock off a good player for $5! Exactly my point. </font color>

Don't know how long this will last. I haven't been there the last two weeks and will miss the next 4 due to health problems so maybe by then things will get back down to normal. <font color="blue">I hope your health gets better. Thanks for the input, Jake.

I wish I had not posted this now as I sould like a crybaby but I'll be more quiet about it in the future. I hit them with SPetty's idea last night and they are mulling it over but I've decided just to give up the bar table pool after Tori and I finish the BCA league. I'll continue to take her and just watch her play and put my table together at home. I know I can win and play there... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font color>

Jake
<hr /></blockquote>