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Ives
02-01-2005, 02:00 PM
Any one have any advice on how to avoid a double kiss on the cue ball when banking an object ball thats close or against a rail.

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http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/pooltable2.html

Bob_Jewett
02-01-2005, 02:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ives:</font><hr> Any one have any advice on how to avoid a double kiss on the cue ball when banking an object ball thats close or against a rail.... <hr /></blockquote>
There are some suggestions in the February 2005 Billiards Digest, including a drill that will help you learn when not to try the bank.

GeraldG
02-01-2005, 02:47 PM
Well, from my experience, if the ball is frozen to the cushion, it will double-kiss if you have to hit it full and from and angle of less than probably 40 or 45 degrees to the cushion. The way this shot is diagrammed, it looks to me like it's less than a full-face hit to make it to the side pocket. One thing you can do is if you can hit it with a small amount of cut (just enough to get the cueball out of the way), and hit it harder, you can sometimes narrow the angle of reflection enough to make up for some of the cut. Also, some inside English may narrow it up a little more, although it's hard to get English to take on a ball that's frozen to the cushion like that and the harder you hit the less effect the English will have.

Maybe someone else has something better for you. If the bank shot is too hard (low percentage) and the cut shot is just as hard, I usually look to hit thin with a lot of spin and send the object ball to one cushion and the cueball to the opposite one or look for some other safety option. In this case, maybe you could hit the 1-ball thin on the left side with a lot of left spin and send the cueball 2 rails to the foot string cushion awhile the 1-ball goes to the head string cushion?

Bob_Jewett
02-01-2005, 03:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr> ... One thing you can do is if you can hit it with a small amount of cut (just enough to get the cueball out of the way), and hit it harder, you can sometimes narrow the angle of reflection enough to make up for some of the cut.... <hr /></blockquote>
A small point of clarification here.... For a frozen object ball, speed does not change the banking angle significantly. On some tables, hitting a frozen bank harder actually makes the banked ball go slightly longer.

GeraldG
02-01-2005, 03:19 PM
Maybe that's why it's only worked for me "sometimes". /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I try to avoid banking balls like this, anyway.

Chris Cass
02-01-2005, 04:59 PM
Use inside english and pop it.

C.C.

crawdaddio
02-02-2005, 03:20 PM
Use follow. This particular angle can be banked with inside (left) or outside (right) english. It is all speed, and contact point sensitive. I have slightly moved the point of contact and the english dot in your diagram. You have to find the right combination of speed, side, and follow. Each table may play a little differently as well. I always use follow in banking a ball frozen to the rail. You kinda "roll" the cueball off it. Sorry if that doesn't make sense.

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~DC

heater451
02-02-2005, 05:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote crawdaddio:</font><hr> Use follow. . . .
~DC <hr /></blockquote>Funny, with the way it's diagrammed--the amount of (what would e a) cut and the necessary angle/distance to the pocket, I would use draw and side. And, the fuller the cueball looks to hit the ball, use more draw, more cut, and more power&lt;---even though Bob Jewett has already disputed this, perhaps the spin/power combo makes the difference.

The shot could probably be made with dead-side (right) and a firm hit, but that's just a guess---I overuse draw, so I'm pretty familiar with it.

The overall idea is, the draw is to pull the cueball back from the object ball, and give it room to avoid the double-kiss. And, hitting with more cut allows the object ball to be cut away from the cueball at a 'safe' angle, and (again, disputed) the higher power will narrow the angle down.

Again this is judging by the diagram. If the balls were moved another half-diamond to the left, it would probably be a no-go shot.

Try all the basic combinations of follow/draw/cut angle, and then try them at speeds, and see what works for you. (I know that's a cop-out suggestion, but I've gotta go get some dinner. . . .)


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Bob_Jewett
02-02-2005, 06:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> ... And, the fuller the cueball looks to hit the ball, use more draw, more cut, and more power&lt;---even though Bob Jewett has already disputed this, perhaps the spin/power combo makes the difference.... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, I didn't say that more speed on the cue ball didn't help avoid a kiss. In fact in the February Billiards Digest, I explain exactly why you want to hit near-kiss banks harder. It just has little to do with shortening the angle on the banked ball.

Fred Agnir
02-03-2005, 07:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> And, the fuller the cueball looks to hit the ball, use more draw, more cut, and more power&lt;---even though Bob Jewett has already disputed this, perhaps the spin/power combo makes the difference.<hr /></blockquote>
I think that on frozen shots, speed will play a part in beating the kiss out (double-kiss), but not the "rebound" angle out.

Fred

Fred Agnir
02-03-2005, 07:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ives:</font><hr> Any one have any advice on how to avoid a double kiss on the cue ball when banking an object ball thats close or against a rail.

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http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/pooltable2.html


<hr /></blockquote>Maybe I should start by saying that the way you have it drawn, there isn't a double-kiss problem. But, if you are having a problem, I doubt words on the screen are going to help. It's what I call an "outside bank."

How about these:

Parallel Inside Firm Hold Up

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or

Sucker Bank - Unless you're Bugs Rucker, banking to A is impossible. Double-kissing it to B is the more viable option. Wouldn't count in Bank Pool.

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or

Straight Hold Up - A very sexy one-pocket shot or banks shot. Better to understand squirt on this shot. You need to stick that cueball right at the contact point, or else you're doomed for the kiss or the miss.

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or

Cross Over with Inside - Standard One-Pocket shot to beat the kiss

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or

Cross Over with Outside - Another Standard One Pocket Shot

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Fred

crawdaddio
02-03-2005, 08:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Sucker Bank - Unless you're Bugs Rucker, banking to A is impossible. Double-kissing it to B is the more viable option. Wouldn't count in Bank Pool.
<hr /></blockquote>

Difficult, yes. Impossible? Not at all.

[ QUOTE ]
But, if you are having a problem, I doubt words on the screen are going to help. <hr /></blockquote>

I completely agree. The only way to learn banks is to shoot banks. All kinds, angles, speeds, etc..........

~DC

Ives
02-03-2005, 09:40 AM
Thanks everyone, im going to try out some of the advice given here. Sounds little more complicated than i thought based on the variety of responses I got. Fred, im going to try some of those bank shots you diagramed. Ive never played much one pocket, still trying to get my straight pool game in line. Local pool hall is going to start a straight pool tourney once a week, looking forward to that alot.

Thanks again everyone.

Fred Agnir
02-03-2005, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote crawdaddio:</font><hr> Rucker, banking to A is impossible. Double-kissing it to B is the more viable option. Wouldn't count in Bank Pool.
<hr /></blockquote>

Difficult, yes. Impossible? Not at all.<hr /></blockquote>I should modify that to say that as the cueball moves toward the right, the shot approaches impossible.

Fred

heater451
02-03-2005, 04:43 PM
Sorry, Bob, I may have crossed the streams there. . . .

Is the 'lack of effect' of more power on the bank angle covered in your high-speed documentation?---I forget the name of the experiment(s).


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Bob_Jewett
02-03-2005, 07:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> Sorry, Bob, I may have crossed the streams there. . . .

Is the 'lack of effect' of more power on the bank angle covered in your high-speed documentation?---I forget the name of the experiment(s).... <hr /></blockquote>
That would be the Jacksonville Project, and the answer is "not exactly." The tape does show how far into the cushion the ball sinks. That leads to a better understanding of how to avoid kisses. The change in bank angle (or lack of change) with speed was covered by a different experiment described in the August 2004 Billiards Digest.

High-speed video is a lousy way to measure angles. The resolution of the high-speed cameras is not up to the job. It is better to set up fixturing to measure angles, such as the throw angle for various incoming angles of the cue ball. Video doesn't help with that sort of thing at all. Where the video does help is in understanding the basic action. Another example is squirt. Video is almost totally useless to measure squirt, but it does help us understand why it happens.