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dmgwalsh
02-03-2005, 01:39 PM
A situation happened last night that resulted in a difference of opinion. My opponent scratched. I intentionally fouled putting the cue ball on the top rail, in the middle. He then intentionally hit the ball into the pocket. He is now on two fouls, I have ball in hand in the kitchen. I wanted to just hit it again back to the top rail, putting me on two fouls and him on two fouls. He insisted that I could not do that and that I had to hit the cue ball downtable. I said what happens if I don't and just hit it uptable to the end rail and take my second foul. He said I couldn't do it and I would still have to shoot again.

I've seen Grady Mathews, Mizerak, Pat Fleming and others go through this two foul minuet before and never saw one of them intentially scratch to give the opponent a tougher position from which to make the final safe, so I figured that he couldn't be right.

What is the correct answer as to what I have to do with the cue ball in the kitchen and what the penalty is if I don't?

Thanks You for your input.
Dennis

Tom_In_Cincy
02-03-2005, 01:53 PM
When you have bih in the kitchen, your shot does not start until you have stroked the cue ball past the headstring.

No matter what you do prior to the cue ball passing the headstrin, it doesn't count. Your inning can only start when the cue ball passes the head string.

World Pool Association General Rules of play
3.10 CUE BALL IN HAND BEHIND THE HEAD STRING

This situation applies in specific games whereby the opening break is administered or a player's scratching is penalized by the incoming player having cue ball in hand behind the head string. The incoming player may place the cue ball anywhere behind the head string. The shooting player may shoot at any object ball as long as the base of the object ball is on or below the head string. He may not shoot at any ball, the base of which is above the head string, unless he first shoots the cue ball below the head string and then by hitting a rail causes the cue ball to come back above the head string and hit the object ball. The base of the ball (the point of the ball touching the table) determines whether it is above or below the head string. If the incoming player inadvertently places the cue ball on or below the head string, the referee or the opposing player must inform the shooting player of improper positioning of the cue ball before the shot is made. If the opposing player does not so inform the shooting player before the shot is made, the shot is considered legal. If the shooting player is informed of improper positioning, he must then reposition the cue ball. If a player positions the cue ball completely and obviously outside the kitchen and shoots the cue ball, it is a foul. (Refer to Rule 2.21)When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, it remains in hand (not in play) until the player drives the cue ball past the head string by striking it with his cue tip.

The cue ball may be adjusted by the player's hand, cue, etc., so long as it remains in hand. Once the cue ball is in play per the above, it may not be impeded in any way by the player; to do so is to commit a foul. Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.

General Rules Link WPA (http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_pocket)

Fred Agnir
02-03-2005, 02:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmgwalsh:</font><hr> A situation happened last night that resulted in a difference of opinion. My opponent scratched. I intentionally fouled putting the cue ball on the top rail, in the middle. He then intentionally hit the ball into the pocket. He is now on two fouls, I have ball in hand in the kitchen. I wanted to just hit it again back to the top rail, putting me on two fouls and him on two fouls. He insisted that I could not do that and that I had to hit the cue ball downtable. <hr /></blockquote>With Ball in hand in the kitchen (in balk), you must hit the cueball out of the kitchen. It can come back and rest on the top rail if you'd like, but you must shoot it out of the kitchen:

Show Me the WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

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%Yq8P0%ZH1C9
)END

Fred

SecaucusFats
02-03-2005, 02:14 PM
When you have the cueball in hand behind the line (in the kitchen)you must drive the cueball to a point outside the kitchen before it contacts a rail or an object ball. Failure to do so is a foul if a ref is presiding. If no ref is presiding, the opponent has the right to call it a foul or to require you to replay the shot again with the balls restored to their positions prior to the shot ( and with no foul penalty imposed).

SPetty
02-03-2005, 03:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> With Ball in hand in the kitchen (in balk), you must hit the cueball out of the kitchen. It can come back and rest on the top rail if you'd like, but you must shoot it out of the kitchen:

Show Me the WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)<hr /></blockquote>And don't forget this classic:

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%Yq8P0%Zf9C8%eC8a4
)END

Rod
02-03-2005, 04:34 PM
Wow SPetty, that's a lot of spin. Tell me, how do you do that? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod

SecaucusFats
02-04-2005, 12:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>With Ball in hand in the kitchen (in balk), you must hit the cueball out of the kitchen. It can come back and rest on the top rail if you'd like, but you must shoot it out of the kitchen:

Show Me the WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

START(
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%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Ph4T3%UD1F6%Vg4S7%W F9D0%XC6E9
%Yq8P0%ZH1C9
)END

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred,

I'm curious as to how that reconciles with what I posted. It seems from the rules (BCA) that I can in fact foul on purpose in the manner described in the original post as long as a ref or my opponent (if no ref) says so.

I may be wrong, and I may be operating under faulty logic but if so, please explain.

dmgwalsh
02-04-2005, 04:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmgwalsh:</font><hr> A situation happened last night that resulted in a difference of opinion. My opponent scratched. I intentionally fouled putting the cue ball on the top rail, in the middle. He then intentionally hit the ball into the pocket. He is now on two fouls, I have ball in hand in the kitchen. I wanted to just hit it again back to the top rail, putting me on two fouls and him on two fouls. He insisted that I could not do that and that I had to hit the cue ball downtable.

<hr /></blockquote>With Ball in hand in the kitchen (in balk), you must hit the cueball out of the kitchen. It can come back and rest on the top rail if you'd like, but you must shoot it out of the kitchen:
Fred <hr /></blockquote>

That's what I did. I lagged and left the cue ball about 1/8" off the top rail towards the center. I guess he was right all along.

I'll have to look at those old tapes again and see what Mathews and the others did and figure out why.

Dennis

Fred Agnir
02-04-2005, 10:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmgwalsh:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> With Ball in hand in the kitchen (in balk), you must hit the cueball out of the kitchen. It can come back and rest on the top rail if you'd like, but you must shoot it out of the kitchen:
Fred <hr /></blockquote>

That's what I did. I lagged and left the cue ball about 1/8" off the top rail towards the center. I guess he was right all along.<hr /></blockquote> Wait a second. I thought... you were right. What? Who? Where?

If that is what you did, you executed a good shot.

Fred &lt;~~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

bsmutz
02-04-2005, 11:58 AM
Isn't this contradictory? "When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, it remains in hand (not in play) until the player drives the cue ball past the head string by striking it with his cue tip." "Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules." If it's not a shot until the cue ball crosses the headstring, how can it be a foul if it doesn't cross the headstring? Now I'm confused.

dmgwalsh
02-04-2005, 01:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmgwalsh:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> With Ball in hand in the kitchen (in balk), you must hit the cueball out of the kitchen. It can come back and rest on the top rail if you'd like, but you must shoot it out of the kitchen:
Fred <hr /></blockquote>

That's what I did. I lagged and left the cue ball about 1/8" off the top rail towards the center. I guess he was right all along.<hr /></blockquote> Wait a second. I thought... you were right. What? Who? Where?

If that is what you did, you executed a good shot.

Fred &lt;~~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I wanted to just hit the ball onto the top rail like this A to C
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%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pp8J8%Qo1K0%Sr4G0
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He told me I couldn't do that so I lagged downtable bringing the cue ball very close to C
Dennis

SPetty
02-04-2005, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Wow SPetty, that's a lot of spin. Tell me, how do you do that? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif<hr /></blockquote>With the Predator shaft, duh! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Bob_Jewett
02-04-2005, 03:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmgwalsh:</font><hr>... I wanted to just hit the ball onto the top rail like this A to C
... <hr /></blockquote>
If you were not required to shoot the cue ball out of balk when it's in hand, the much, much better play would be to place the cue ball in a corner hook in one of the head pockets and just tap it with your cue tip.

But you are required to shoot the ball out of balk when it is in hand.

Fred Agnir
02-05-2005, 07:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmgwalsh:</font><hr> I wanted to just hit the ball onto the top rail like this A to C
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%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pp8J8%Qo1K0%Sr4G0
)END

He told me I couldn't do that so I lagged downtable bringing the cue ball very close to C
Dennis <hr /></blockquote>Okay. He is correct.

Fred