View Full Version : BCA Rule - Good or Bad iyo
02-03-2005, 09:25 PM
The other night, I was watching my team player (A) trying to make the last three of his balls and his opponent (B) had reached the 8-ball and missed, in league play. While (A) was setting to shoot, (B) decided to put his cue up and (he said) shoot with a house cue if it came down to it. (A) then called him on it and there was a heated discussion. Ultimately (A)got the game by concession.
My argument is this. If there is a rule that says that if you break your cue, then, you conceed the game. Why does this rule not explain anything about the use of a cue when jumping balls or changing cues at all? It really boils down to an action that has nothing to do with the game directly, does'nt it? And if the player who calls the action eventually continues to shoot, should'nt that also be covered in the rule.
I know that I may be making a mountain out of a molehill, but isn't it a fact that this rule is talked about much more than other rules that are thoroughly covered?
If I decide to break my cue apart at any point in the game, so what? The outcome of the<FORM METHOD=POST ACTION="http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/dopoll.php"><INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="pollname" VALUE="1107491114LivinGr8">
BCA rule - Conceed by detachment
game itself will still be in question. However, I will agree to enforcing the rule, while it is a rule. <input type="radio" name="option" value="1" />Good Rule
<input type="radio" name="option" value="2" />Bad Rule
02-03-2005, 10:34 PM
If the guy said he was going to use a house cue before he broke down his cue, that should not be a concession...
02-04-2005, 04:22 AM
Never, ever unscrew during a match unless you are ready to conceed the match, or you have already conferred with the team captains on your intentions, if you have a valid reason to unscrew, and both have agreed. Valid reasons to unscrew include breaking or damaging your playing cue so that you need to change shafts or cues. Just simply unscrewing during a match is considered a signal of concession.
If a match is down to the last ball or two and the person who unscrewed obviously did so because he was sure his opponent was going to make the out, it's the same (in effect) as "giving" him the last ball...or as frequently happens in 9-ball saying "you don't need to shoot that one."
I've seen people unscrew in the middle of a match before when things weren't going well for them. In most cases, that was an obvious concession. However, I did see once in a 9-ball tournament where a player unscrewed in the middle of a rack because he was going to use just the shaft of his cue to jump a ball. He did not announce his intentions first, and the other player tried to call a concession. The TD got involved and ruled that the player could continue shooting because it was obvious his intentions were not to conceed. He successfully executed the jump shot, ran out and won the match.
The smartest thing is to either announce your intentions and get confirmation that everyone understands your intentions and agrees it's OK, or to just wait another 30 seconds until the match is really over.
02-04-2005, 05:31 AM
It's a good rule. It is meant to prevent obvious "sharking". I do feel that if the player announces his intentions and the reason why - during a pause in the action, they should be allowed. But to unscrew while your opponent is down on the case ball (or others leading to the case ball), is an obvious shark.
02-04-2005, 05:38 AM
It is agood rule. There are obviously a lot of people out there who are not ramiliar with it and it occurs all the time in small tournaments. It is sharking and should be enforced unless your intensions were made known such as a shaft change.
02-04-2005, 06:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LivinGr8:</font><hr>
While (A) was setting to shoot, (B) decided to put his cue up and (he said) shoot with a house cue if it came down to it. (A) <hr /></blockquote> That's a concession. And it's a damned good rule. Why would anyone be so goofy to break their cue down unless they were intentionally sharking?
02-04-2005, 07:08 AM
The other point, I believe there is a rule about the number of cues you can bring to the table, and what you bring is what you use. (the exception being for broken equipment). I don't think you can bring in another cue in the middle of a match, even if it's a house cue.
02-04-2005, 07:22 AM
Actually Steve, you're only allowed to bring a maximum of 3 cues to a match. I wonder if using a house cue made it the fourth cue - regular cue + break cue + jump cue + house cue?
02-04-2005, 08:13 AM
Good rule. I believe the intent is to deflect one of the more common sharking techniques, ie pretending to concede a game in order to cause a lapse of concentration in the opponent. There is never, ever a legitimate need to break down a cue while your opponent is shooting. Wait your turn.
Other examples of this same shark are reaching into the pockets to pull balls out (presumably conceding and making ready to rack) and reaching into one's pants pocket for change (usually accompanied by loud jingling) as if conceding on coin tables.
Several years ago I worked near a poolroom which had free pool during lunch, so I frequently spent an hour there at noon. Another frequent patron was one of those loud brassy gladhandlers who sell cars or insurance, and he employed the end-game shark.
When I got down on the ball before the eight, this guy started gathering balls from the pockets and holding them while I finished. I missed, and he dropped the balls back in the pocket to take his shot.
The second time we played, and he started pulling balls from the pockets, I "helped" him by rolling all the remaining balls downtable for him to rack. I only had to do that once for him to get the message.
02-04-2005, 09:09 AM
This has happened just this week. In a weekly $5 tournament, a newbie was sitting while his opponent was shooting the 8 ball (in a 9 ball game) and the newbie took off his glove and started to unscrew his cue (loud squeaking noise). The shooter stopped and asked if the newbie was conceding the game.
I really don't think the newbie knew what 'conceding' meant. But, the newbie said "no, I was just making sure it was tight". Afterwards, I explained to him what his actions meant to a shooting player. He replied, 'they do this all the time in bars' he never thought or even heard about the rule.
Welcome to the BIG tables and real tournament rules.
I have thought that if you are sitting and holding your cue, and your opponent is down on an easy 9 ball, when you take the cue and place it out of the way, you are getting ready to RACK. To me this is also a sign of conceding, or a concession.
If you want to change cues, change shafts or 'whatever', do it on "your turn" and announce it to your opponent.
02-04-2005, 10:12 AM
House rule at D&D, If you break down your cue or even grab the rack you are conceding that game.
02-04-2005, 11:13 AM
You can break your cue down when it is your shot, so you can still change shafts or anything else you need to do. It is a very good rule. It's an obvious shark move, and very poor sportsmanship, to break your cue down when your opponent is at the table, especially if they're running out for the win. This rule elminates the possibility of someone pulling that move.
02-04-2005, 11:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LivinGr8:</font><hr> ... While (A) was setting to shoot, (B) decided to put his cue up and (he said) shoot with a house cue if it came down to it. ... <hr /></blockquote>
B should have been seated, quiet and polite. Instead he was deliberately making a sharking move. I don't see what's unclear in the situation.
02-04-2005, 05:48 PM
I've rarely seen anyone do this. But, what I have seen on many different occasions, particularly in league play, is a player breaking his break cue on the last rack. In such a case, I think it would be overkill to forfeit the rack.
I think that it's a judgement call. If there's reason for the other player to believe the act was a concession, unsporting, or a sharking tactic, then the rule should be applied, and like any other rule, a dispute should be ruled in the shooter's favour. IMO, it's a good rule.
02-05-2005, 04:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Good Rule.
or 'whatever', do it on "your turn" . <hr /></blockquote>
like kissing one`s girlfriend,making noise from the bag of potato chips.
02-05-2005, 10:54 AM
Woody<-------cant stand sharking /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
02-05-2005, 11:25 AM
According to rule 1.14 two thing have to happen, the opponent has to be at the table AND during the opponents decisive game of the match
02-05-2005, 04:42 PM
I thnk it's a great rule that needs excepections.
Suppose you lose a tip in the middle of play?
I should be allowed to change to my other shaft.
Or suppose I want to remove the butt section of my J/B cue to jump a ball?
Suppose you want to change cues?
I personally would out my second cue together and leave them both assmebled and in my case, but some might want to pack the (now out of play) cue away.
These all have to be taken into consideration when making an ammeded exception to that rule.
02-05-2005, 04:51 PM
All you have to do is wait your turn and announce your intentions. Those rules are already in place.
It is rude and in poor form (as is ANY sharking technique) to unscrew while your opponent is at the table. Bottom line. Anyone that needs to resort to sharking techniques to try to win a match needs to go find another hobby, IMHO.
02-14-2005, 11:15 AM
In referee training...this is the way they descirbe it. Breaking your primary cue while your opponent is at the table in HIS/HER decisive game...is a concession.
Mr. Jewett is right, it is unsportsmanlike conduct to be up doing anything while your opponent is at the table. Someone asked about changing shafts to shoot a jump shot, etc. It's completely permissible while it's your turn at the table.
Barbara mentioned the rule about only bringing 3 cues to a match. Personally, I'd be much more concerned that my opponent broke down his cue on my decisive game than whether using a house cue would constitute a fourth cue. However, it is an interesting technical point. In my case I carry three cues...playing, breaking and jumping. Sometimes though (if I'm not making balls with my breaker) I will use a house cue to break. I guess technically I am bringing a fourth cue to the match. I'd die laughing if someone tried to make it a point during league play.
02-14-2005, 04:47 PM
I do not play BCA but in APA it is a concession when the other player breaks down his cue ! Think of it kinda like when two puppies are fighting and one rolls over on his back! the other one knows to stop! IMO! a rule like this is there for a reason ! 1) sometimes someone can do this to throw you off your concentration and game !
2) if you think they quit (which really you are doing when you break down your cue during the game regardless of any additional (if / when or will conversation) and you go ahead and say shoot half heartedly at the 8 ball that was sitting in the pocket and miss /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif they could then say its their shot and take the game! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
02-14-2005, 04:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MrLucky:</font><hr> I do not play BCA but in APA it is a concession when the other player breaks down his cue ! Think of it kinda like when two puppies are fighting and one rolls over on his back! the other one knows to stop! IMO! a rule like this is there for a reason ! 1) sometimes someone can do this to throw you off your concentration and game !
2) if you think they quit (which really you are doing when you break down your cue during the game regardless of any additional (if / when or will conversation) and you go ahead and say shoot half heartedly at the 8 ball that was sitting in the pocket and miss /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif they could then say its their shot and take the game! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>
I've seen that exact thing happen before. Always make sure that they say they are forfeiting before you assume it. I just say "Do you want me to shoot this out or is that enough?" I've actually seen the guy that unscrewed get the match because of that very thing.
02-14-2005, 05:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr>...
I've seen that exact thing happen before. Always make sure that they say they are forfeiting before you assume it. I just say "Do you want me to shoot this out or is that enough?" I've actually seen the guy that unscrewed get the match because of that very thing. <hr /></blockquote>
Another way is to walk over to them as they are fumbling with their case and hold out your hand and say, "Thanks. You played pretty well, but I got the rolls. Better luck next time."
02-14-2005, 06:26 PM
Yep...anything to get a verbal confirmation that they have conceded the match.
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