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View Full Version : Can someone explain this?



Toddo26
02-10-2005, 12:52 PM
I've been playing bar tables for over 20 years, and I've recently started playing in a pool hall on 8 and 9 ft tables. I have noticed 3 major differences, 2 of which I cannot explain. 1.CUEBALL CURVE - On bar tables I can get much more curve with the cueball. I am pretty accurate when having to curve the cueball slightly on a bar table. I am struggling with this on the larger tables. 2.SPIN INDUCED THROW- I've noticed I cannot "throw" the object balls nearly as much on the larger tables. 3.DRAW- The draw is unbelievable on the bigger tables compared to the P.O.S. bar tables I play on.
I realize that the cueball is larger on the bar tables, and the felt is probably better on the quality tables. That explains the difference in draw. But I cannot explain the cueball curve and the S.I.T. Can someone explain this?

bsmutz
02-10-2005, 12:57 PM
This is also due to the heavier/larger cue ball on the bar table. Try moving your cue tip out a little farther than you are used to. A heavier cue ball will shove the object ball farther on a throw shot. Also it will curve better.

highsea
02-10-2005, 12:59 PM
A lot of barboxes have pretty beat-up balls. Lots of throw and curve, because the surfaces are so rough. Go from a cheap set of balls to a nice set of centennials, and you can't near as much throw from the OB.

BTW, most of the bar tables around my neck of the woods don't use oversize CB's anymore. They are pretty much all magnetic valleys. I won't play with an oversize CB. Hate'em.

Perk
02-10-2005, 01:07 PM
I would think HighSea hit it on the nail. Most places/bars have a beat up set of balls to go along with a perfectly nice cueball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

poolturtle
02-10-2005, 01:46 PM
I've also heard that dirty balls have a tendency to throw more, and most of the bar boxes I've played on have horribly dirty balls. I've got to admit I'm confused about the curve issue. I grew up on 8ft tables, and I've gotten pretty accurate on my curve shots(both long shots and tight masse shots). Every time I get on a bar table I can't seem to get any real curve with consistancy. With a few exceptions, any curve I've gotten wasn't enough for the shot.

pooltchr
02-10-2005, 01:47 PM
One other possible explanation is the type of cloth used on the tables. Most coin ops I have seen have much heavier slower cloth. Most pool rooms with 9 footers seem to use Simonis or other similar tournament type cloth.
Steve

SpiderMan
02-10-2005, 01:51 PM
Hi Toddo,

My opinions:

1. Most bar tables have nappier cloth, the regular tables are often slicker. This means less skid on the bar tables, and perhaps is why your curve "takes" sooner. Also, distances tend to be less on a bar table and pockets larger, so it could also be that the demands of such a shot are less, ie more success for less execution.

2. Throw is very much a function of friction at the surface of the balls. Throw increases with ball friction and decreases with cloth friction. In general, bar-table balls will have rougher and dirtier surfaces due to their hard life among drunks. This means much greater throw, despite the fact that the cloth friction is also higher. Want to see some real throw? Put the bar table balls on slick simonis cloth.

3. Many bar-table cueballs are larger/heavier than the object balls. This leads to penetration at impact, and greatly increased difficulty in drawing. Regular bar-table players learn to utilize less draw and more follow in their strategies.

SpiderMan

Toddo26
02-10-2005, 02:10 PM
Thanks for everyones comments so far. I am understanding all this alot more now. " Spiderman" You are right about players developing follow shots more on bar tables. I find myself on reg. tables setting up for what would be easy follow shots on bar tables only to find the cueball die. Especially on table length cut shots. But on the other hand the players at the PH can't believe the draw that I have developed while playing with larger cueballs.

poolturtle
02-10-2005, 02:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
. Many bar-table cueballs are larger/heavier than the object balls. This leads to penetration at impact, and greatly increased difficulty in drawing. Regular bar-table players learn to utilize less draw and more follow in their strategies <hr /></blockquote>

Not contradicting, just a curiosity. I can get pretty good draw action with a regular cue(nothing like diagonal table-length draw I saw Jeanette Lee do in one tournament), but can barely get a diamond(on a good day) on a bar box. I've been told by people who have seen me on an 8ft table that I have a good draw stroke, but I have seen some guys get very respectable draw(more than 2 diamonds away and draw it back that far or farther) on the bar boxes. Is there something in the technique I'm missing?

SpiderMan
02-10-2005, 02:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote poolturtle:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
. Many bar-table cueballs are larger/heavier than the object balls. This leads to penetration at impact, and greatly increased difficulty in drawing. Regular bar-table players learn to utilize less draw and more follow in their strategies <hr /></blockquote>

Not contradicting, just a curiosity. I can get pretty good draw action with a regular cue(nothing like diagonal table-length draw I saw Jeanette Lee do in one tournament), but can barely get a diamond(on a good day) on a bar box. I've been told by people who have seen me on an 8ft table that I have a good draw stroke, but I have seen some guys get very respectable draw(more than 2 diamonds away and draw it back that far or farther) on the bar boxes. Is there something in the technique I'm missing? <hr /></blockquote>

If you have good technique, it's probably just differences in equipment. With some of the worst oversize balls and nappy cloth, it's tough to shoot a ball 3 feet away and draw back to the original position (unless you're Mike Massey or Deeman2). APA "league balls" can be drawn the length of the table without difficulty.

SpiderMan

Toddo26
02-10-2005, 02:22 PM
"Poolturtle" I'm no instructor or pro, but after playing for so long on bar tables I can tell you it takes much more technique to draw an oversized ball. I have never really been able to explain to someone how to draw to the extreme. I do it all by feel.

Deeman2
02-10-2005, 02:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote poolturtle:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
. Many bar-table cueballs are larger/heavier than the object balls. <font color="blue"> I am an unabashed advocate of everyone sticking an oversized cue ball in their pocket and sneaking it out and throwing it in the garbage. That might send a message to those still using them. </font color> This leads to penetration at impact <font color="blue">...sounds too sexy for me... </font color> , and greatly increased difficulty in drawing. Regular bar-table players learn to utilize less draw and more follow in their strategies <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> True, but you can still draw one length of the table if you cue low enough and smooth stroke it with a good, well chalked tip. But! I still hate them. If you have beer and french fry grease on the cue ball, even Mike Massey can't do it. Well, maybe Mike can!</font color>

Not contradicting, just a curiosity. I can get pretty good draw action with a regular cue(nothing like diagonal table-length draw I saw Jeanette Lee do in one tournament), but can barely get a diamond(on a good day) on a bar box. <font color="blue">If it's not the ball, it may be your tip. You may "get away" with less on a nice table. </font color> I've been told by people who have seen me on an 8ft table that I have a good draw stroke, but I have seen some guys get very respectable draw(more than 2 diamonds away and draw it back that far or farther) on the bar boxes. <font color="blue"> Get an instructor or really good player to watch you and check your tip, chalk, etc.</font color> Is there something in the technique I'm missing? <font color="blue"> Probably, come on down to Longview and we'll show you! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman

poolturtle
02-10-2005, 02:32 PM
So I guess if I spent more time on the bar tables practicing my draw, and could "perfect" it, I would probably have the same result as you and see a phenomenal jump in my ability to draw the cue on an 8ft table? I've considered that, but I feel more comfortable on a full size, so I tend to gravitate to them and ignore the bar tables. I should probably spend more time on them, if for no other reason but to improve my draw stroke. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

poolturtle
02-10-2005, 02:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Is there something in the technique I'm missing? Probably, come on down to Longview and we'll show you! <hr /></blockquote>

Although that was meant as a funny comment, you don't know how long I've wanted to go find some people to "show me". I've posted on here before that the only people I've met who play pool are bar patrons with "their own pretty little cue" who may be able to shoot well, but have no real concept of strategy. You start talking about safeties and you might as well be speaking a foreign language to them. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Toddo26
02-10-2005, 02:44 PM
"Poolturtle", I don't know if that is good advice or not because I think that if you only shoot on regulation tables it may be better to go to an instructor and then practice your technique on the type of table that you play on.( sorry I don't know how to do the quote thing, but this was directed to the question about playing on bar tables to get better at draw. )

poolturtle
02-10-2005, 02:54 PM
I play on both, I just prefer to play on full size. I sometimes play in a weekly tournament on bar tables, and when I go to my home town, I play on them there too. I just don't frequent the bar scene much any more, so when I found a local room with full size tables, I just naturally started frequenting there more.

As far as being used to different tables, I'm well adapted to both. I understand the differences(playing surfaces, ball action, side pockets, etc.) and I just adjust my game to the table.

What's frustrating me is that, on a full size table, I have a full arsenal of strategical plays. But by not being able to draw on a bar table, it severely limits my strategy options. Simple run-outs on a full size become a struggle to zig-zag through the maze of clustered balls. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Rod
02-10-2005, 04:30 PM
1. Dirty balls, heavier cloth, heavier c/b, but usually not larger = more friction.

2. Dirty beat up balls = more friction.

3. Bar box ball is heavier and heavy cloth = more friction. Unless you have a good stroke, draw is more difficult but most bar balls are not hard to draw. Due to conditions though it isn't as consistant as a 9 footer.

Almost always bar conditions are far dirtier than well kept reg tables in a pool room. Even on normal shots, swerve is far greater on a bar table. It really pays to keep the cue as level as possible. On a clean big table it's very slight.

Of course you can have similar happen on a big table but usually it's conditions, humidity etc. Even dirty balls, like touching balls and eating fries, the bastards. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Of course in bars they slobber beer on their chin, wipe with there hand and then play pool, the bastards. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod

pooltchr
02-11-2005, 04:59 AM
I don't know how far you are from Dallas, but Randyg who posts here runs one of the best pool schools in the country there. If you really want to perfect your technique, that would be the way to go.
www.poolschool.com (http://www.poolschool.com)

Steve

Deeman2
02-11-2005, 09:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote poolturtle:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Is there something in the technique I'm missing? Probably, come on down to Longview and we'll show you! <hr /></blockquote>

Although that was meant as a funny comment, you don't know how long I've wanted to go find some people to "show me". I've posted on here before that the only people I've met who play pool are bar patrons with "their own pretty little cue" who may be able to shoot well, but have no real concept of strategy. You start talking about safeties and you might as well be speaking a foreign language to them. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I know what you mean. Seriously, if it's not too far from Stephensonville (I know Texas is big) come on down and we can do it. Also, as someone else posted, Randy G. is a great teacher. If you come, just give me a couple of days notice. There is a nice place 15 minutes from here. We'll have you drawing the ball enough to scare your bar opponents. No charge, you can just pay the table time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

Deeman

SPetty
02-11-2005, 02:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> Seriously, if it's not too far from Stephensonville (I know Texas is big) come on down and we can do it. If you come, just give me a couple of days notice. There is a nice place 15 minutes from here. <hr /></blockquote>He's gonna have to pass right by PettyPoint on his way. Hmmm.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Deeman2
02-11-2005, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> Seriously, if it's not too far from Stephensonville (I know Texas is big) come on down and we can do it. If you come, just give me a couple of days notice. There is a nice place 15 minutes from here. <hr /></blockquote>He's gonna have to pass right by PettyPoint on his way. Hmmm.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Hmmmmm...indeed. That sounds like one of those irrestible PettyPoint invitations. What better place to learn a killer draw than at the home of the sweet Simonis!!!! Hey, maybe Spiderman will actually show up this time.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif and show us all how to hike your leg onto the table like a poodle... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif just kidding....

Somebody get a callendar out!</font color>

Deeman
never turned down PettyPoint, won't start now.

poolturtle
02-11-2005, 05:25 PM
I've talked to Spiderman before. I'm about 1-2 hours southwest of the DFW area. My schedules kind of tight most the time, but I'd be willing to make time for the experience. Not sure about the table time...you'd have to prove you're worth it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Oh, and just out of curiosity, are any of you guys playing the BCA Nationals in Vegas in May?

dr_dave
02-12-2005, 03:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>1. Dirty balls, heavier cloth, heavier c/b, but usually not larger = more friction.<hr /></blockquote>
There is more friction force on a heavier cue ball, but it also takes more force to make it curve. The amount of curve (swerve) actually does not depend on the weight of the cue ball. (Those that are interested can see the math and physics at TP A.4 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-4.pdf)). However, as you point out, the added friction created by dirty balls and a thicker cloth can make a big difference.

Regards,
Dave

SpiderMan
02-14-2005, 08:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote poolturtle:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Is there something in the technique I'm missing? Probably, come on down to Longview and we'll show you! <hr /></blockquote>

Although that was meant as a funny comment, you don't know how long I've wanted to go find some people to "show me". I've posted on here before that the only people I've met who play pool are bar patrons with "their own pretty little cue" who may be able to shoot well, but have no real concept of strategy. You start talking about safeties and you might as well be speaking a foreign language to them. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I know what you mean. Seriously, if it's not too far from Stephensonville (I know Texas is big) come on down and we can do it. Also, as someone else posted, Randy G. is a great teacher. If you come, just give me a couple of days notice. There is a nice place 15 minutes from here. We'll have you drawing the ball enough to scare your bar opponents. No charge, you can just pay the table time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman,

We played some this weekend. Technique is just part of drawing the ball - he needed a new tip on his cue, probably as badly as anyone I've seen /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

SpiderMan

Deeman2
02-14-2005, 08:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
Deeman,

We played some this weekend. Technique is just part of drawing the ball <font color="blue">Yep. I had mentioned that in an earlier post. </font color> - he needed a new tip on his cue, probably as badly as anyone I've seen <font color="blue"> I knew you'd pull out your microscope on him! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Glad you were able to help him. I sent you that graphics CD on Friday so it should be there this week. Yes, some of it is "sick" but you'll like the firepower!

I now see you are a diver as well? Darn, do we have that in common too? Did you ever work for Doug McNeese? I did his open water checkouts at Heber for a few Summers. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

SpiderMan
02-14-2005, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
Deeman,

We played some this weekend. Technique is just part of drawing the ball <font color="blue">Yep. I had mentioned that in an earlier post. </font color> - he needed a new tip on his cue, probably as badly as anyone I've seen <font color="blue"> I knew you'd pull out your microscope on him! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Glad you were able to help him. I sent you that graphics CD on Friday so it should be there this week. Yes, some of it is "sick" but you'll like the firepower!

I now see you are a diver as well? Darn, do we have that in common too? Did you ever work for Doug McNeese? I did his open water checkouts at Heber for a few Summers. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Dee,

I am only recently certified. When I lived in Memphis, I had plenty of buddies who went to Heber Springs, but they never managed to talk me into it. Actually, I was a poor college student then and couldn't have done much with it anyway. My checkout was at one of the "clear-water" lakes off I-35 up in Oklahoma.

Can't wait for the CD!

SpiderMan

BCgirl
02-15-2005, 02:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Toddo26:</font><hr> 1.CUEBALL CURVE - On bar tables I can get much more curve with the cueball.
2.SPIN INDUCED THROW- I've noticed I cannot "throw" the object balls nearly as much on the larger tables.
3.DRAW- The draw is unbelievable on the bigger tables compared to the P.O.S. bar tables I play on.<hr /></blockquote>
I think others have provided reasonable theories relating to the heavier CB, but I think that the CB size is at least as significant. I play mostly on regulation tables, but I've recently played a bit on bar tables, and noticed, in particular, that you can throw the OB much, much further with the larger CB.

With the larger CB, the CB contact point will be above the centre line of the OB, and during the contact, there will be a component of force driving the OB into the table. Clearly, this will increase friction at the contact point, and the duration of the contact, and a heavier cue ball and dirty balls will compound this. This will, in turn, increase the throw effect.

As for curve, several things could be happening. One is that you may be able to impart more spin without miscueing, and a heavier and possibly dirtier CB will create a greater friction between CB and cloth. Why that outweighs the fact that there's a heavier mass to move, I don't know. Maybe it's just dirt and beer spills.

For draw, a far greater amount of spin will be lost at contact, due to the increased contact friction. I think this is probably the most important factor, but the masses are not equal either, so the CB will carry more forward momentum after the collision, that must be countered by spin.

That's just my own theory of what's happening, but I'd love to see a thorough physical analysis of the effect of a bigger and heavier CB, because like you, I always ask why?

BCgirl

DickLeonard
02-15-2005, 07:11 AM
Most bar tables use rubber backed cloth and it is glued to the underside of the slate. It is not tacked like pool hall tables.####

Toddo26
02-16-2005, 04:56 AM
Hi,BCgirl. I would like to see a physical analysis also. I also wonder how many different size cueballs there are. In my area there are still a few tables left with really large cueballs. Of course I stay away from those.-----Todd