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jpeters
02-18-2005, 09:56 AM
Hi everyone,

Just returned from big trip and was reviewing DVD's Instruction last night after been away for awhile. It is still amazing to me that after even the 7-8 time watching them I still gain more information. New things everytime.
One thing that really came to mind last night was the analogy of the golf swing pendulum. The club hitting the golf ball and the cue tip hitting the cue ball. The slow motion of each really gave me a sense of understanding and the ability to really stroke through the cue ball. Attack it. But not with intense speed force, with re-acceleration force. This simple thought put me into the zone last night very quickly. That visual image as Tim shows with the golf swing with each position and then the visual image I constructed to match in my stroke really does it. Just wondering how many of you play golf and incorporate similar things into both sports.

Bob_Jewett
02-18-2005, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jpeters:</font><hr> .. with re-acceleration force.... <hr /></blockquote>
It would help if you would explain what this means. I suspect it is something that happens after the tip hits the ball. If so, I hope you're aware that while it may help your mechanics by making your stroke smooth, it does nothing for the action of the cue ball.

bluey2king
02-18-2005, 11:18 AM
Howdy Pard I am from Colorado also.
What tape are you watching? You mention Tim. Is this the The Monk?
Do you recommend his series?

wolfdancer
02-18-2005, 11:24 AM
re-accelerating force? Maybe in the ether..or
that thin Rocky mountain air.
The Japanese have a saying to cover this:
"He wo hitte, shiri tsubome"...no sense squeezing your buttock's after you have farted.
The cueball, or golf ball, could care less,
since it's now long gone. I think someone's
made one trip too many, to the Oyster bar.
since the cue/club loses speed due to imparting
it's energy to the cue/golfball....what good, if you
could...would it accomplish, if you now re-accelerate?
As a stroke/swing visual aid though, it may help you to
follow-through, and not consciously decelerate or even
e-accelerate

Wally_in_Cincy
02-18-2005, 12:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr> Howdy Pard I am from Colorado also.
What tape are you watching? You mention Tim. Is this the The Monk?
Do you recommend his series?
<hr /></blockquote>

http://www.billiardsanctuary.com/instructor.htm

LARRY_BOY
02-18-2005, 12:23 PM
I have played a lot of golf in the past and the two strokes are exactly alike. Back stroke,change of direction,fore stroke, and follow thru. Sounds simple but perfecting it is the hard part.........

Sid_Vicious
02-18-2005, 12:26 PM
I am recently in the opposite mode, my stroke is better with equal or even restricted acceleration. I'm not pulling the stroke, just muscling the cue straight instead of throwing or "stroking" like I used to. I hope your system hold up for you, and yet I had a teamate who was a golf instructor and I really think he was more in my camp that the re-accelleration, he is one hell of a stroke and position artist, hardly an effort at all. I can't remember ever seeing him accellerating, just a minimal slow flowing stroke...sid

Popcorn
02-18-2005, 05:06 PM
One of the greatest difficulties players have in reaching higher levels in pool is in the stroke. There is no one answer what constitutes a good stroke. For general beginner play the basics of follow through help get someone in to good habits. As you become a better player there are almost endless in inpercivable nuances to the stroke. If you play close up games like straight pool or one pocket a lot of what you do as far as stroke isn't in the book but all instinct and feel. From jab strokes and stuns to slow rolling and even shots that border on a push to accomplish what you are trying to do. There is no one best stroke for every shot. At this level you can't even teach what you are doing. You may go forward to the other end of the table with spin off a rail at what looks like an impossible angle to produce, yet you know you can do it with no problem and it is all done with the stroke. Most all of this is invisible to the casual watcher, you just can't see what the player did, that stroke may have look just like the last, but it wasn't.

jpeters
02-19-2005, 10:10 AM
HI Mr. Jewett,

What Tim White (don't want to confuse with Tim "the monk") describes is exactly what happens when the cue tip touches the ball. Then he shows in slow motion the similarity of the golf swing at each position as the club hits the ball and the cue tip hitting the ball. What happens when you don't stroke correctly and what happens when you do. It is very detailed and very good and I do not want to attempt to explain it all here. If I were to just watch and learn a single section without the other parts I would feel left out. I believe that it has been the understanding of the entire process that has really helped me. When I have a difficult feeling or thought I know what video to go to and what section to rewatch. If you could watch Volume # 9 and let me know what you think about it I would be glad to talk to you about the concepts and what it has done to my game.

jpeters
02-19-2005, 10:13 AM
Dear Sir,
What tape are you watching? www.billiardsanctuary.com (http://www.billiardsanctuary.com)
You mention Tim. Is this the The Monk? NO... I have the monk series but don't watch much anymore after receiving the DVD's from the Academy of Cueing Arts.
Do you recommend his series? Absolutely!!! They are the best I have ever seen or could imagine ever seeing. Highly recommend.

BoroNut
02-19-2005, 07:19 PM
It's not how hard you hit it, it's how well. Jimmy White always had tremendous cue power, but was like a stick insect himself. It has nothing to do with muscles. I remember my own learning curve, and found the following tips helpful.

Practice holding the cue with the lightest fingertip grip. Let the cue's weight flow through the shot and do the work for you.

Strike the ball, don't hit it. You will only know when you do this when you actually do it. It's like the first time you really hit a golf shot without trying too hard. You hear the noise and the ball goes into orbit, but you don't feel a thing. Then you will have the white on a piece of string. It was only after I leaned how to strike the ball properly that my break building really took off.

Follow through long and smooth. Don't snatch. Imagining another ball behing the white and playing to strike it instead of the white can help establish the feel.

Practice screwing back with a much lighter cue. It makes you work harder to get it right, and switching back to a heavier cue is then a doddle.

Popcorn
02-19-2005, 07:37 PM
Interesting phraseology.

Bob_Jewett
02-21-2005, 09:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jpeters:</font><hr> ... and I do not want to attempt to explain it all here. ... <hr /></blockquote>
I think it would have been better to not bring the subject up if you're not willing to discuss it.

I think what you are talking about is the very standard concept of "accelerating through the ball" which in fact turns out to be the wrong thing to do. You will have the best speed consistency if your acceleration goes to zero at the instant the tip contacts the ball. The problem a lot of players have is that they start stopping the stick before it gets to the ball. Telling them to "accelerate through the ball" may get them to actually accelerate up to the collision.

jpeters
02-22-2005, 06:42 AM
Hi Bob,

Quote: Mr. Jewett
I think it would have been better to not bring the subject up if you're not willing to discuss it.

It is not that I am not willing it is that I don't think I would do justice to the what and how Tim explaines it. It is just so much easier and clearer to watch Volume 9 as I explained. The section on this is fairly long and detailed with graphics.

Bob_Jewett
02-22-2005, 10:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jpeters:</font><hr> ... It is not that I am not willing it is that I don't think I would do justice to the what and how Tim explaines it. It is just so much easier and clearer to watch Volume 9 as I explained. The section on this is fairly long and detailed with graphics.
<hr /></blockquote>
So your post is an ad? How much is Volume 9? What does it cover? Compared to other sources of the same information, how do you feel it is better? Capelle? Byrne? Fels? Martin? Knuchell? Cottingham? Mosconi?

jpeters
02-22-2005, 04:09 PM
Mr. Jewett,

I have not seen the other DVD's you are talking about. Again, I am not selling anything here. It is difficult to attempt to type hours of information I have learned from video. I don't believe that you suggest I attempt that...do you? I came to this site looking to talk to others about my learning progress through the videos I am studying. It has been somewhat mystical to me that very few on this Chalk board have the same knowledge to share with me. I would have thought for sure that everyone here would have the videos and know what I am talking about. I am not sure what Volume #9 costs individually but if you wish you can go to www.billiardsanctuary.com (http://www.billiardsanctuary.com) and order it.

Bob_Jewett
02-22-2005, 05:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jpeters:</font><hr> ... I came to this site looking to talk to others about my learning progress through the videos I am studying. It has been somewhat mystical to me that very few on this Chalk board have the same knowledge to share with me. ... <hr /></blockquote>
But so far you have told us very little about what you have learned except that you like it a lot and you feel we should buy Tim's materials so we can discuss your progress with you. I think there's lots of info available here as long as you don't demand that it be phrased in exactly the way that you demand.

Are you still unwilling to even define "re-accelerating"?

jpeters
02-22-2005, 08:17 PM
Mr Jewett,

What I suspect is that the billiard education world is mixed with facts and theories...mostly the latter, I assume. What I understand so far works perfectly and I don't see the need to confuse or mix the information with other teachings. I am not a teacher and what I think most teachers attempt to do is translate the facts. I am sure many do it wonderfully. I have chosen to follow the direct guidance from Tim White and I would not even attempt to translate the material. I don't feel like it is the actual segment by itself that makes the difference, it is all the parts that lead up to this explanation in Volume 9 I was referencing. I reviewed it again this evening. The segment is over 15 minutes long. Where would you like me to begin in explaining it to you? I just can't believe that you don't know what this is anyways.

Rod
02-22-2005, 10:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What I understand so far works perfectly and I don't see the need to confuse or mix the information with other teachings. <hr /></blockquote>

Well I'm curious what you understand. I don't believe your being asked to mix this information with other teachings. Just define this one point. Since you posted this in a forum, others here I'm sure would like to know as well.

[ QUOTE ]
Where would you like me to begin in explaining it to you? I just can't believe that you don't know what this is anyways. <hr /></blockquote>

Did the author/video state re-acceleration? If so in what context was it used? At what point in the swing does this happen? I can well imagine other instructors and players are not familiar with his teachings as you have become aware of such. The billiard world is mostly filled with facts at a professional level, theory is related to what happens when it can't be measured with accuracy, per-say.

Rod

Deeman2
02-23-2005, 08:52 AM
The silence is deafening....

SPetty
02-23-2005, 11:49 AM
Hi jpeters,

Many of us think we may be able to discuss the topics with you, except we simply don't understand the language you are using. We're not asking you to mix teachings (although that's a really good idea, by the way), but to translate the things you are saying into words the rest of us understand.

It seems that not a lot of us here have invested the time or money to learn what you are discussing. It would probably help to alleviate some of the problems the posters are having and some of your frustrations if you preface your posts with an introductory comment that this is only for those who have learned the Australian Oyster way. I think there's at least one other poster here who is familiar with it.

It might be a good idea to ask the Australian Oyster to add forums to his web site so that you would have some place to discuss these things with people who understand them.

Really, just trying to help.

Deeman2
02-23-2005, 12:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LARRY_BOY:</font><hr> I have played a lot of golf in the past and the two strokes are exactly alike. Back stroke,change of direction,fore stroke, and follow thru. Sounds simple but perfecting it is the hard part......... <hr /></blockquote>

LARRY_BOY:

Taking your advice to heart, I tried to use the same exact swing in pool as I use in golf. I now have a broken light fixture in my den, a concave dent in the butt of my cue and cuts on my palm from cue joint ripping into my skin. As I did not use a tee, my carpet now has a nice little rip or divot for about 3 inches and the tip of my cue is lodged in my armpit. What do I do now? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Deeman
I'm calling a lawyer...

PQQLK9
02-23-2005, 12:23 PM
Me thinks u r holding the wrong end of the cue /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Deeman2
02-23-2005, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PQQLK9:</font><hr> Me thinks u r holding the wrong end of the cue /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Damn, foiled again. I'll try again when I recover...

Deeman </font color>

woody_968
02-23-2005, 12:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> What do I do now? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Sounds like you were pronating when you should have been supenating?

Deeman2
02-23-2005, 12:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> What do I do now? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Sounds like you were pronating when you should have been supenating? <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Stop that talk, you're getting me moist... </font color>

DickLeonard
02-23-2005, 01:08 PM
When I was playing Golf and Pool in my youth no one ever said to me Golf was harder to play than pool. They would say when do I shoot, kinda hard to get good when you don't play, just rack balls.####

Bob_Jewett
02-23-2005, 01:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jpeters:</font><hr>... What I suspect is that the billiard education world is mixed with facts and theories...mostly the latter, I assume. What I understand so far works perfectly and I don't see the need to confuse or mix the information with other teachings... <hr /></blockquote>
It's nice that you have found a guru with whom you connect perfectly, and that you see no reason to let other ideas and instructors intrude on your prefect understanding of pool. Most people aren't that fortunate, and have to deal with conflicting theories and -- more horribly -- facts. As someone else pointed out, if you want an "oysters only" discussion, maybe Tim can set up such a site.

If you want to discuss things here, I'm afraid that you will have to accept other denominations of pool beliefs, or you're not going to have much discussion.

Chopstick
02-23-2005, 02:14 PM
I'll discuss something with you Bob. In a golf swing, by the time you actually feel the contact with the golf ball, the golf ball is no longer in contact with the club. It is several inches in front of the club head. So, anything you might feel you are doing to affect the ball at that point is an illusion.

A pool stroke occurs at a much lower speed. Is the cue ball still in contact with the tip at the time you feel it? It has been measured that a golf ball stays in contact with the club face for one ten thousanth of a second. Has this ever been measured for a cue ball?

I have been wondering about that.

Bob_Jewett
02-23-2005, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>...
A pool stroke occurs at a much lower speed. Is the cue ball still in contact with the tip at the time you feel it? It has been measured that a golf ball stays in contact with the club face for one ten thousanth of a second. Has this ever been measured for a cue ball? ... <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, this was measured in 1998 in the Jacksonville project. This included high-speed video that went as high as 12,000 frames per second, which is 400 times faster than TV frame rates. The tip contact time varies with the hardness of the tip, the speed of the shot and the amount of spin used. Values from about 1 millisecond to 2 milliseconds were observed. This is far less time than it takes you to react to a stimulus, so the pool ball is long gone by the time you feel the hit.

A simple way to estimate the time of contact is to know that the tip will be on the ball over a distance about 3 times larger than the amount of tip compression. That means that if the tip (and ferrule, and shaft) compress by 1mm, the tip and ball travel together for about 3mm. If you can measure or estimate tip compression on a shot, and you know how fast the stick is moving, you can estimate the time of contact. That simple estimation also gives around 1 millisecond of contact time, and does not require a high-speed camera. Of course, seeing the contact, compression, decompression and release take place is a lot more convincing than theory.

In his book, "The Physics of Pocket Billiards," the late Wayland Marlow measured the contact time of balls which turns out to be about 200 microseconds. That's too fast to get a good reading from the video mentioned above. It might be possible, but it requires better lenses and illumination than we had.

wolfdancer
02-23-2005, 06:09 PM
I bought a new VCR back in the days when they went for a few hundred...then while practicing my golf swing...I clipped something and that redirected my forward swing into the new VCR
They just don't build em too solid.
When I finally moved my non-golfing LL had the audacity to ask me to pay for all the woodwork and wall damage......some folks just don't understand the dedication required to keep up with the new monthly swing tips in Golf.
Somebody here mentioned the similiarity between the pool stroke, and golf swing???? only when you add body rotation, weight transfer, wrist action, etc ( and try to time them) to the pool stroke.
Did you know that even a misjudged wedge shot to the couch...will go through a second story window?...cheap glass...and my downstairs neighbor had the nerve to complain