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View Full Version : LEGAL 9-BALL FOULS???



cheese_ball
02-24-2005, 02:56 PM
I was playing a $$$ match last night, and came across an interesting question... I won the first 3 sets, and I was up 4-2 in a race to 7, spotting my opponent the 7-ball. I smashed the rack wide open, didn't sink a ball, but left the 9 hanging in the corner pocket. The 1-ball is hidden, and the cueball is stuck in a cluster of 3 other balls. There is no way to kick into, bank into, carom into, or otherwise drop the 9 with a "push" shot. My opponent used the back of his cue, and knocked in the ball! I called a loss-of-game, but he protested saying that it was only a foul. He spots the 9, and hands me the rock... I am pretty sure that this type of foul results in a loss-of-game, and I tried to impart this knowledge on my opponent. He insisted that he was right, and wouldn't back down. I didn't get mad, or upset, I just broke down my cue, threw a $20.00 on the table and walked out. Am I in the right here, or is this somehow legal??? It seems like a BS way of shooting pool, and I don't have time for crap like that......... Anyone know the logistics here?

Popcorn
02-24-2005, 03:04 PM
Are you playing cue ball fouls only?

JDB
02-24-2005, 04:40 PM
I agree, your opponent cannot legally do that. He can only try to make the nine by contacting it with the cue ball, not directly with his cue stick. I would have asked him to respot the 9 ball if he did not know the rule. If he continued to argue I would have probably played out the set and quit.

UTAddb
02-24-2005, 04:43 PM
This happened to me in a tournament, but the tourney was really shady so I didn't exactly get a ruling. But, I believe this is technically considered unsportsmanlike conduct. You have to use the tip of your cue. I think it's an auto loss of game.

Barbara
02-24-2005, 05:26 PM
cheese.

If this was a tournament, that would be unsportsmanlike conduct and the player would be given a warning of disqualification if he/she had another warning of the conduct.

But since this was a money match and the rules weren't determined in advance, he was probably okay with raking in the 9 with the butt of his cue, spotting it, and giving you BIH. And that's when you should've told him and agreed on that this was a no-no.

Live and learn. Peace.

Barbara

Bob_Jewett
02-24-2005, 07:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheese_ball:</font><hr> (opponent puts the hanging nine in with the butt of his cue stick) <hr /></blockquote>
You are never, ever permitted to change the positions of the balls in play other than by hitting the cue ball with your cue tip. How about if I use the side of my stick to rake all the balls over in front of my pocket at one pocket? Or took a foul at straight pool by picking the cue ball up and placing it in a corner hook? Such actions are completely outside the rules of play.

If it's my tournament, unsportsmanlike conduct and possible removal from the tournament and forfeiture of all prize money.

GeraldG
02-24-2005, 07:39 PM
If you're playing by the Standardized Rules, and there is a referee presiding, then it is a warning for unsportsmanlike conduct the first time, then forfeiture of the match on the second offense. If there is no referee presiding (such as the money game in this case), then it is simply a ball-in-hand foul and the ball is spotted back up. The TD has the right, of course, to enforce the rules as if there were a referee presiding.

I personally wouldn't tolerate it in a money game....I'd just settle up and quit. I think cheese-ball handled it just right. It would seem to me that it was intended as much as a sharking move as anything else.

Rod
02-24-2005, 10:36 PM
What the guy did was wrong but consider who your playing. Your giving up the 7, how much does this guy really know? Actually it doesn't make a lot of difference. Next, your up 3 sets and ahead 4 to 2 in this one. I might say something but you could do it yourself should the occasion arise.

The nine just spotted, so you were out nothing and might have had a runout or at least it was your table to control. You most likely will win anyway. At any rate I have let guys cheat/ or get away with things cause I was just going to take their money anyway. Several good stories there.

Someone mentioned sharking, I doubt it. I'd consider it an act of desparation. You know you got the guy then, that's really a good shark from your end. From my view I wouldn't quit, I'd stick it in and break it off for him being such a nit-wit. LOL I may never play them again but I wouldn't give him any satisfaction or money buy quitting.

As a TD, I'd put the 9 ball back to it's original position, explain the rules and give him a warning. Sometimes people do not know the rules or what is legal. If I knew they knew better then it would be a game forfit, with a warning, one more and your out.

Rod

BCgirl
02-24-2005, 10:37 PM
It's unfortunate that this is a somewhat grey area. The rules are generally fairly clear that this should be dealt with harshly. In a refereed match, BCA 2.19 says that the game or match may be forfeit, with no preliminary warning required. BCA 3.29 says that the referee shall warn once, and the match is forfeited on any following offence. There is no specific rule, other than the normal foul (spot the 9, and ball in hand) for a non-referee'd match. Yet another area where the rules really need cleaned up.

Personally, I do think that it should be loss of match, refereed or not, but I've played in several places where I'm fairly sure it would have been loss of teeth.

BCgirl

Rackin_Zack
02-24-2005, 10:57 PM
Barring an unsportsmanship call, I would say that the nine would, at least, spot back where it was and he would have to still hit the cue ball or give you ball in hand. Just like if you accidentally move a ball with your cue it is the opponents decision to move it back or leave it where it is.

Chris Cass
02-25-2005, 12:38 AM
Hi cheese_ball,

Unfortunately cheese it's done quite a bit in Chicago. Even by ones with experience playing. Tounament rules are up to the TD but just gambling is another story.

Myself, it wouldn't have bothered me at all. I've seen it so much. Most of the time it's off the break and it ends there. The same thing where you lock your opponent up. The 9 isn't even a threat if they did give up bih. They'll just pick the cb up with their hand and hand it too you.

The thing to keep in mind most of Chicago plays the 3 foul rule so, count that as 1 and go for #2. imho It sucks but it's been around for a long time and it wouldn't be a loss of game. It may be called say, foul with a warning of a loss of game maybe?

Regards,

C.C.~~would of stayed in the game and made him pay for his opponents crap defense.

MrLucky
02-25-2005, 05:09 AM
I agree! in Bar pool gambling, its <font color="red">ALWAYS </font color> a good habit to clearly define the rules prior to shooting! These types of illegal / sharking / just poor play is the reason I seldomly do it! I try and stick to tournaments ! they usually cut out all the disputes and issues ! but you did what you should have ! Especially in a low money game it isn't IMO worth the hassle and angst! /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

jjinfla
02-25-2005, 05:32 AM
I take it you were playing $20 sets. And since you were giving the 7 ball and were up 3 sets it was easy money for you.

But, unless you were looking for a reason to quit, I see no reason for you to conceed this match. Even with his foul you were odds on favorite to win this match.

Seems to me you had a sucker on the ropes and you let him off. I suggest you stop playing matches for money. Unless you like losing. Remember - never give a sucker an even break.

Jake

MosconiJr
02-25-2005, 07:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> What the guy did was wrong but consider who your playing. Your giving up the 7, how much does this guy really know? Actually it doesn't make a lot of difference. Next, your up 3 sets and ahead 4 to 2 in this one. I might say something but you could do it yourself should the occasion arise.

The nine just spotted, so you were out nothing and might have had a runout or at least it was your table to control. You most likely will win anyway. At any rate I have let guys cheat/ or get away with things cause I was just going to take their money anyway. Several good stories there.

Someone mentioned sharking, I doubt it. I'd consider it an act of desparation. You know you got the guy then, that's really a good shark from your end. From my view I wouldn't quit, I'd stick it in and break it off for him being such a nit-wit. LOL I may never play them again but I wouldn't give him any satisfaction or money buy quitting.

As a TD, I'd put the 9 ball back to it's original position, explain the rules and give him a warning. Sometimes people do not know the rules or what is legal. If I knew they knew better then it would be a game forfit, with a warning, one more and your out.

Rod
<hr /></blockquote>

I agree with Rod. I would look at this more from a gambling standpoint than a rules standpoint. You seemed to have a fish. Eventually, after you beat the guy enough with the 7, you could probably play him with the 6 (or 7 &amp; last 2) and win more. You probably cost yourself quite a bit of money by quitting the match. It appears to me that the guy couldn't win, and was making a desperate attempt to get back into the game. Or he may have actually thought that this move was legal. Either way, so what? Spot the nine, and go ahead and win the set. Then give him the 6 and beat him out of a few dollars more. I wouldn't run a guy off that I was sure I could beat out of money because of any stunt he tried to pull on the table.

It's easier to overlook things like this if you can see the bigger picture.

MosconiJr

cheese_ball
02-25-2005, 11:33 AM
Obviously we come from two different worlds Jake. You may be out to rape and pillage (on the tables of course), but I'm looking for something more. I already have a good job, plenty of $$$, a nice car, a nice house... I don't need the cash, nor do I care about it. I don't gamble for the money, all for the thrills. I actually LIKE the pressure of a money game, and I PREFER playing people better than me! There aren't many places to get a better lesson than throwing a dub on the table while Mexican Paul from Chris's Billiards is playing. I don't have the time or patience for poor sportsmanship be it for $10 or for $10,000. I would actually feel better about losing lots of dough to a great player and a gentleman than taking tons of dough from a worthless punk. Maybe some day you'll understand this logic. If you need more clarification, ask Gerald G. he seems to understand!