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SplinterHands
02-25-2005, 06:24 AM
This happened to me last night. I was playing a guy, who I really don't care for, in a nine ball tournament. We were playing a race to 3 and were using coins to mark the scores. He wins the first game and marks the score. He wins the second game, but doesn't mark it. I didn't say anything because I figure he knows and so does everyone else. He wins the last game and as I'm getting up to shake hands, he starts pulling balls out of the pockets to play another game. I was shocked, but didn't say anything. Turns out, I won the next 3 games and went on to finish 2nd instead of 4th. Did I cheat or is it his responsibility to keep his own score? If it was somebody I liked I would have let him know.

Fred Agnir
02-25-2005, 06:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> This happened to me last night. I was playing a guy, who I really don't care for, in a nine ball tournament. We were playing a race to 3 and were using coins to mark the scores. He wins the first game and marks the score. He wins the second game, but doesn't mark it. I didn't say anything because I figure he knows and so does everyone else. He wins the last game and as I'm getting up to shake hands, he starts pulling balls out of the pockets to play another game. I was shocked, but didn't say anything. Turns out, I won the next 3 games and went on to finish 2nd instead of 4th. Did I cheat or is it his responsibility to keep his own score? If it was somebody I liked I would have let him know. <hr /></blockquote>You cheated yourself. Whether you liked him or not.

Note: I'm not passing judgement on your character. I couldn't care less. If you're good with it, that's all that matters.

Fred

GeraldG
02-25-2005, 06:35 AM
It's his responsibility to keep up with his score, but Fred's right. You cheated yourself.

Look at it this way, it was an honest mistake that happened to be in your favor. The guy wasn't trying to cheat you or gain an unfair advantage. He simply forgot to advance his coin. You technically won the match, but did you really win it?

MosconiJr
02-25-2005, 06:57 AM
I think you cheated. I normally hate when people make golf references when referring to pool, but I have to use one here. You always see golfers call penalties on themselves, even if noone else sees the foul. It could cost them in a tournament, but it is a standard practice that they do it.

I am a firm believer that "you reap what you sow". If you got a game or match that you did not deserve, at least one will be taken from you at a later date.

I also am not passing judgement. Only giving my opinion.

MosconiJr

ChuckR
02-25-2005, 07:26 AM
Well, it's not like you committed murder or anything, but you are the one that really lost. I like golfers because they call fouls on themselves and pool players usually seem to see what they can get away with. I guess thats why pool is looked upon as the "red light district" of sports. Guess you had better go to confession. ChuckR

tateuts
02-25-2005, 07:40 AM
Well, if you had it to do over, I bet you would point it out. The desire to win makes us do strange things in the heat of the moment.

Even gambling if a player fails to move his coin I let them know, or if they're getting ready to shoot the wrong object ball, etc.

I am pleasantly surprised when someone I have only average respect for calls an unseen foul on themselves. This tiny act invokes instantaneous trust. Suddenly, I hold them in high regard, regardless of their skill level. I can remember almost every instance in which a player called an unseen foul on themselves.

Anyway, my suggestion is that you right the ship by explaining the situation and apologizing to the player.

Chris

pooltchr
02-25-2005, 07:40 AM
Just the fact that you asked the question should gie you your answer.
Steve

SpiderMan
02-25-2005, 08:16 AM
I say you won unfairly, because your opponent got to three before you, whether he knew it or not.

Of course, we are splitting hairs and drawing lines. I would always tell my opponent if he failed to mark a game, or I would feel bad about it. On the other hand, if my opponent shot at the six while not realizing that the five was still on the table, I would probably take ball-in-hand rather than stop and correct him. As I said, we're splitting hairs over what we feel to be the individual's responsibility, and everyone may have a different viewpoint.

If you honestly feel your opponent should be punished for not paying attention to the score, considering that is part of the match just like paying attention to which balls are still on the table, then go for it. On the other hand, if you fell guilty today over what transpired, then draw your line in the sand a little further over and decide to not take advantage of an opponent's lapse in such matters.

SpiderMan

Chris Cass
02-25-2005, 08:29 AM
Hi SplinterHands,

I don't care myself to use coins on a race to 3 of any game. Everyone can count to 3. Anyway, what you did was sellout any integrity you had. Regardless of, if you like or dislike your opponent. What you did was wrong. I could see if you didn't notice it, but admiting you knew that and the fact you didn't care for the guy does matter. It seems like a very poor excuse.

I won't say no more on the subject but you asked my opinion and this is what I feel you've done. I will say that, now you have to live with it and hopefully, you will learn from it. I do have some respect for you for atleast admiting the incident. I believe you would say something if it ever happened again. You do have a good conscience.(sp?)

I do suggest that the next time you see the guy. Buy him a drink. If he asks why? Just tell him you owe'd him one and leave it at that.

Regards,

C.C.~~good learning experience in the difference btween a player and someone just looking for any way to get the W.

Troy
02-25-2005, 08:43 AM
You asked "Did I cheat?"
YES !!!

Troy...~~~ No more words needed

MrLucky
02-25-2005, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> You asked "Did I cheat?"
YES !!!

Troy...~~~ No more words needed <hr /></blockquote> <font color="red"> ..and frankly you already knew the answer! IMO you wanted someone here to take the sting out of what you did by validating it! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Billy_Bob
02-25-2005, 09:40 AM
When I play, sometimes no one is looking and I might accidentally foul by moving the cue ball with my warm-up strokes. I could go ahead and play, but I don't. I give my opponent ball-in-hand and tell them I fouled.

Why do I do this?

Because when I play good, I should be rewarded. When I play poorly, I should be penalized. I feel this will help me in the long run. It's not necessarily a moral/religous/ethical thing. It is simply myself getting accurate feedback on my playing. I do well, I am rewarded. I don't do well, I am not rewarded.

I would never want to reward myself for not doing well.

LARRY_BOY
02-25-2005, 09:50 AM
As Earl Strickland recently stated on national t.v., and I quote, "if the refree didn't see it it doesn't count".....

Troy
02-25-2005, 10:10 AM
That is indicative of Earl's all-for-me-and-the-hell-with-you attitude.
He could/should take some lessons from golfers.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LARRY_BOY:</font><hr> As Earl Strickland recently stated on national t.v., and I quote, "if the refree didn't see it it doesn't count"..... <hr /></blockquote>

Cane
02-25-2005, 10:25 AM
I'm neither a great player or a saint, but... right is right and wrong is wrong.

I had something similar happen in a tournament. I was playing against a player who, by all rights, should beat me most times (some of you would know him... Randy G does...). We were keeping track of the set with pennies. I thought he had forgotten to move his on one game and that he should have won the set when he thought we were Hill-Hill. I went over to shake his hand and he says "Double hill... we've got one more game." He insisted that he HAD moved his penny and that we were both on the hill, I insisted that he hadn't and had won the set. We actually got in a loud discussion about this (me calling him a senile old b@$tard and him accusing me of ducking the last game... it was really a stupid argument, looking back on it), and the TD came over to settle us down. The TD laughed when he figured out what we were arguing over. My point here is that I really wanted to beat this old SOB, but not if I felt like I was cheating him. Ya know what... he, in his younger days, was a hell of a road player and hustler, but he didn't want the set unless he felt he had REALLY won it. It was like two children insisting that one had more integrity than the other, when combined they probably didn't have enough between them to make any difference... except when it came to the GAME...

On paper, I won the set... did I really win it, I don't think so... I really believe Curtis won the set and that we were hill hill when I thought we were, but, after arguing, and his insistance that he DID move his penny, and everyone in the place saying they didn't know, didn't see, then HE convinced me to leave things as they were marked and play the last game for the set. We did, he broke, I won. After the set, he came up and shook my hand, told me that he'd NEVER cheat me, and that he'd swear on the Bible that he had moved his penny and that we were both on the hill. I apologized to him, because I felt like and still do feel like I won a set from him, in the finals, that I did NOT win.

Did I feel bad about it... You're damn skippy I felt bad about it, because as badly as I wanted to destroy him, I don't think I won the set... I think he did. I still can't wallow in the glow of beating him, because I don't think I did, even though he STILL insists I did.

Like I said, I am not a saint. If I see someone who has more dollars than sense and just wants to give away their grocery money, I'll take it. I may try to lull them into a sense of security by whatever means necessary (act stupid, dress scruffy, whatever...), but when it comes to the game, if I win, I want to WIN, not snatch up a set because some guy, caught up in the moment, forgot to move a little piece of copper under a cushion.

Later,
Bob

Sid_Vicious
02-25-2005, 10:39 AM
Gambling makes it somewhat different, cuz I KNOW that I've failed to move a coin at times and many of the everyday gamblers I seem to run into won't offer to tell you. Some will, and to them, I tell them their mistake right off. If it's cheap and just gambling for the thrill, I'd say you should certainly tell the guy,,,otherwise, "Hey, it's his responsibility"...sid~~~lost money due to not moving a coin early-on and then getting stonewalled when I brought up later, it ain't cheating, just a personal morals deal

Popcorn
02-25-2005, 11:05 AM
What do you honestly think?

dewey52
02-25-2005, 11:06 AM
I guess I am missing something. Where in the rules does it say that a player must or should call a foul on himself? I thought that was the responsibility of your opponent or the ref to call a foul. Is there some "unwritten" code of sportmanship to follow? Self called fouls in golf are mainly because of the distance covered make it impossible for an opponent to observe. If golfers are so honest why are there officials, especially in match play? It's your responsibility in pool to watch your opponent &amp; play by the rules.

sliprock
02-25-2005, 11:08 AM
Cheater? No
Unsportsmanlike? Probably.
I've been on both sides of this situation. Our local rules state that a win must be marked before the next game is over or your opponent's not obligated to give you the game.
It's a little bit nitty to call someone on the rule but it's never been challenged.

As far as keeping the score in my head, maybe in a race to 3, but anything longer than that and you had better mark your game. I usually don't start sweating the score until late in the set. If we are half-way through a set and I know that we are close, unless I can see the coins, most times I couldn't tell if my opponent has 3,4 or 5 games. If you win a game and try to go from 3 to 5 because you say that you forgot to mark a game, I'm not going for it, unless I know it to be true. It's not your responsibility to keep your opponents score. Mark your wins against me as we go and there will be no problems, Start trying to mark games later on in the set, and I might have a problem. Im not trying to be unsportsmanlike, I'm real competetive, and the score at times is really a non-issue. If I lose because I forgot to mark a game, I don't blame anyone but myself.

MrLucky
02-25-2005, 11:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dewey52:</font><hr> I guess I am missing something. Where in the rules does it say that a player must or should call a foul on himself? I thought that was the responsibility of your opponent or the ref to call a foul. Is there some "unwritten" code of sportmanship to follow? Self called fouls in golf are mainly because of the distance covered make it impossible for an opponent to observe. If golfers are so honest why are there officials, especially in match play? It's your responsibility in pool to watch your opponent &amp; play by the rules. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="red"> Actually the issue was not a foul it was over who won the match the poster knew he did not yet accepted the win! .... Personally I don't think there needs to be a rule governing self ethics and being able to feel good about yourself! Perhaps when I was younger I might have taken every advantage in order to win ? but now my personal pride and dignity mean more to me than just getting a win I did not earn! JMO! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Rackin_Zack
02-25-2005, 11:58 AM
In most any tournament I play in, which isn't many and always local, they always state that if you don't move your coin before the next break is broken then it's your opponent's prerogative to allow you to move the coin! Like someone else said, it's a matter of where to draw the line.

MrLucky
02-25-2005, 12:02 PM
These guys were not in a formal tournament from what I read it was a bar room tournament ! but never the less I've played tournaments going on 25 years now and never been told of that rule! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Rackin_Zack
02-25-2005, 12:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MrLucky:</font><hr> These guys were not in a formal tournament from what I read it was a bar room tournament ! but never the less I've played tournaments going on 25 years now and never been told of that rule! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Here is a quote from the original post:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr>I was playing a guy, who I really don't care for, in a nine ball tournament.<hr /></blockquote>

Is not a tournament a tournament? Also, I was just giving an example of situations where it is stated that it is the individual's responsibility to move their coins as much as it is to pay attention to the table. This is just the way it is handled to avoid disputes around here!

GeraldG
02-25-2005, 12:17 PM
I don't want to take anyone's money, no matter how much it is, if I can't say that I beat them fair and square. I don't consider "winning" a match because someone forgot to move their marker (and I knew it) as winning fair and square. SOmetimes it's easy to get caught up in the moment and forget that...I certainly appreciate it when my opponent reminds me of something like that.

If it happens sometimes that I'm getting weight when I shouldn't really be getting it, or something like that...I don't feel bad about that at all. We can always adjust the game if necessary after a set is finished. As far as I'm concerned, making the right booking is part of the game, just like making shots. If you book a bad match, then you made a mistake...you either change the game or quit. It has happened to me the other way, too.

As far as calling fouls on yourself, I think that's only right. It is up to the individual player to pay attention to what is going on, but realistically it's impossible to see everything that's happening all the time. I can accidentally touch the cueball with my cue and I might be blocking my opponent's view. It's only right to call the foul on yourself. If I am playing someone that just refuses to pay attention to the game...gabbing with his buddies, whatever...I'll call the first one. If he doesn't care enough to pay attention after that, he's on his own. If I see him getting ready to shoot the wrong ball, I'll tell him before he shoots if I realize it.

MrLucky
02-25-2005, 12:19 PM
Hey man, There are Bar run tournaments where they use whatever rules the guy running it deems OK (like this one obviously was)!! and then there are tournaments like The Fury tournament or APA or BCA sponsored tournaments where there are set rules and guidelines! All I said to you was that I never was in one that we needed to mark our games with a penny or whatever and do it by a certain time or your game that you won was forfeited!

<font color="green">Obviously you responded before I changed the bar part! LOL! Anyhow that has nothing to do with the price of tea in china any ways ! My advice to him remains the same ! </font color>

MrLucky
02-25-2005, 12:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rackin_Zack:</font><hr> In most any tournament I play in, which isn't many and always local, they always state that if you don't move your coin before the next break is broken then it's your opponent's prerogative to allow you to move the coin! Like someone else said, it's a matter of where to draw the line. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="red"> So that I am understanding you ! by this rule and your stating it you feel that he was not doing anything wrong by not telling the guy! Which IMO! is fine with me if it is fine with you!</font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <font color="purple"> I really don't have to live by your standards I only have to live by mine! and the original poster asked what we thought and I told him ! Where is your issue with this? </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Billy_Bob
02-25-2005, 12:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dewey52:</font><hr> I guess I am missing something. Where in the rules does it say that a player must or should call a foul on himself?... <hr /></blockquote>

You are not required to call a foul on yourself. However if you win matches by taking advantage of these situations and grow accustomed to winning a few here and there because the other player is not watching, then in my mind, it makes for a weaker player.

Eventually you will be in a situation at an important match where there is a ref. or the other player is watching closely. You will not be able to win because the other player missed your foul, forgot to move a coin, or whatever. You will need to win by your skill alone.

If you have won in the past by cheating, sharking, being able to foul without the other player noticing, etc., then you will be at a big disadvantage in such a closely watched match. What worked in the past for you will no longer work.

So might as well play as if a ref. is watching every move from the get go.

The idea is to prepare yourself *now* for important matches in the future where any little foul will be called and your opponent will get ball-in-hand or win.

This is along the same lines as banning better players from local money tournaments where many of the players in the tournament are league players as well. These league players are not helping themselves by banning the better players from their tournament. Sure they win for now, but they will eventually need to face these better players when they go to regionals or nationals. It would be better for them to learn to play the better players now. Then they will be better prepared for regionals or nationals.

Rackin_Zack
02-25-2005, 12:39 PM
First off, I would like to say that I was not directing anything at you specifically or implying that you were wrong in any way. I was just saying that the tournaments I've played in take care of this possible dispute by stating the rule up front. This is not to say that I wouldn't allow my opponent to move his coin, because I would if I noticed it. In fact, most of the time I tell my opponent if he is aiming at the wrong ball. That being said, I've never been one to just accept the majority morallity. If there was one thing that my Existentialism course helped me realize, it was that it is important that we all devise our own moral code!

Chris Cass
02-25-2005, 12:55 PM
Tap, Tap, Tap. I'd play with you any day of the week and be greatful to be able to lose to a real class stand up man as you Mr. Cane.

Regards,

C.C.

Troy
02-25-2005, 01:01 PM
OK, you can have it that way if you want. You and Earl must be buddies.
I can look in the mirror and smile. If I stole a match, I could not smile at that guy in the mirror.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dewey52:</font><hr> I guess I am missing something. Where in the rules does it say that a player must or should call a foul on himself? I thought that was the responsibility of your opponent or the ref to call a foul. Is there some "unwritten" code of sportmanship to follow? Self called fouls in golf are mainly because of the distance covered make it impossible for an opponent to observe. If golfers are so honest why are there officials, especially in match play? It's your responsibility in pool to watch your opponent &amp; play by the rules. <hr /></blockquote>

SplinterHands
02-25-2005, 01:21 PM
I disagree with most of you. It's not my responsibility to keep track of my opponents score. If I'm dumb enough not to move my coin, I would expect to not get credit for the win. If I foul, I always acknowledge it. That is a totally different subject and not the issue. I'm not looking for validation. I was wondering if there was some kind of rule about forgetting to mark your score.

GeraldG
02-25-2005, 02:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> I disagree with most of you. It's not my responsibility to keep track of my opponents score. If I'm dumb enough not to move my coin, I would expect to not get credit for the win. If I foul, I always acknowledge it. That is a totally different subject and not the issue. I'm not looking for validation. I was wondering if there was some kind of rule about forgetting to mark your score. <hr /></blockquote>

Nope, there's no rule that says you have to remind the other guy to move his marker. If you can live with it, more power to you....I'm not going to judge you or make any statements about your morals or character. I'm just saying that's not the way I play, and I wouldn't want a win that I got that way. What you do is your business.

pooldude
02-25-2005, 03:19 PM
I can feel your pain. And since I would like to help you feel better about yourself then I think you should send me the difference in the money between 4th and 2nd place.

Tom_In_Cincy
02-25-2005, 03:40 PM
Did you cheat? I don't think this is cheating, but it would be a 'hollow' win to say the least.

What I think you did was miss an opportunity to show someone you claim you don't like, that you can be 'better' than they are. Or, at the very least, show them the same respect you would show any pool opponent during a match. It's your reputation and the way you feel about yourself during competition that really matters, not your opponent.

No rules cover this situation that I am aware of.

A few questions;
1. How would you have felt after the game was over and you lost, and then found out you'd forgotten to move the coin?
2. What would you have done if your opponent had heard from one of the bystanders that he had forgotten to mark up the game after the match and told the tournament director?
3. Would you have admitted that he had indeed forgotten the coin move and you weren't the winner?

Just wondering, nothing jugemental.

SplinterHands
02-25-2005, 03:45 PM
I respect everybody's opinion about this subject. You choose to play the way you do based on your "morals". It's hard to imagine that of all the responses, almost all of you stated you would be honest and do the right thing. Hardly fits the profile of most pool players I've met. I believe what I did lies in the category of "killer instinct" and a deep desire to win, not cheating.

tateuts
02-25-2005, 04:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> I disagree with most of you. It's not my responsibility to keep track of my opponents score. If I'm dumb enough not to move my coin, I would expect to not get credit for the win. If I foul, I always acknowledge it. That is a totally different subject and not the issue. I'm not looking for validation. I was wondering if there was some kind of rule about forgetting to mark your score. <hr /></blockquote>

You go to the store. The cashier hands you $20 change from a $5 bill. You know it, shove it in your pocket anyway, and quietly leave. Did you legally steal? No. Did you morally steal? Of course. Knowing right from wrong is not the same as being legally correct. of course you're not looking for validation - you seem to lack the moral fiber to commit such an act.

That's why you're the one racking.

Chris

MrLucky
02-25-2005, 04:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Did you cheat? I don't think this is cheating, but it would be a 'hollow' win to say the least.

What I think you did was miss an opportunity to show someone you claim you don't like, that you can be 'better' than they are. Or, at the very least, show them the same respect you would show any pool opponent during a match. It's your reputation and the way you feel about yourself during competition that really matters, not your opponent.

No rules cover this situation that I am aware of.

A few questions;
1. How would you have felt after the game was over and you lost, and then found out you'd forgotten to move the coin?
2. What would you have done if your opponent had heard from one of the bystanders that he had forgotten to mark up the game after the match and told the tournament director?
3. Would you have admitted that he had indeed forgotten the coin move and you weren't the winner?

Just wondering, nothing jugemental. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="purple">I knew there was a reason I like you! Good way to put it. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

MrLucky
02-25-2005, 04:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> I respect everybody's opinion about this subject. You choose to play the way you do based on your "morals". It's hard to imagine that of all the responses, almost all of you stated you would be honest and do the right thing. Hardly fits the profile of most pool players I've met. I believe what I did lies in the category of "killer instinct" and a deep desire to win, not cheating. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="purple">You know your answers "beg" me to ask one question, If you weren't looking for Validation of your act and you obviously do not like the answers your questions evoked, Then why did you ask us???? </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Barbara
02-25-2005, 04:39 PM
Tap!! Tap!! Tap!!

Barbara

MrLucky
02-25-2005, 04:40 PM
Your words <font color="red">"Killer Instinct" and "Deep desire to win" </font color> remind me of the morality of real sharks ! they swim the ocean looking for any prey that can't hurt them devouring everything in their path relentlessly and to them its all "just food!" IMO the true person with a deep desire to win! wants to win on his or her own merits! By being better than their best opponent ! Not because they could slick / cheat or steal a win! that to me is the option of someone with larceny in their heart not someone with the desire to overcome by merit! JMO! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I'm not down on you ! I can't be I don't know you from Adam but I am honestly answering your question! since you asked! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

thepoolnerd
02-25-2005, 05:02 PM
It may be alot different to sit around and think whether you'd do it than to make a split second decision when it happens to you. I'm not saying it was the right thing to do, but I've forgotten to move my coin and rather than tell the the player that he owes me a game I accepted the fact that I forgot. I've also had several instances where opponents cheated me or tried to shark me and I've never done that to anyone intentionally. When money is on the line and my opponent needs to pull out a freaking abacus to count to three I may have done the same thing. To say that Splinterhands was cheating is a reach. Suppose Splinterhands lost count of the rack count also. Same result, second place.

SplinterHands
02-25-2005, 05:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote thepoolnerd:</font><hr> It may be alot different to sit around and think whether you'd do it than to make a split second decision when it happens to you. I'm not saying it was the right thing to do, but I've forgotten to move my coin and rather than tell the the player that he owes me a game I accepted the fact that I forgot. I've also had several instances where opponents cheated me or tried to shark me and I've never done that to anyone intentionally. When money is on the line and my opponent needs to pull out a freaking abacus to count to three I may have done the same thing. To say that Splinterhands was cheating is a reach. Suppose Splinterhands lost count of the rack count also. Same result, second place. <hr /></blockquote>

Finally, someone with a little sense. Thanks poolnerd.

PQQLK9
02-25-2005, 05:24 PM
WWJD

thepoolnerd
02-25-2005, 05:26 PM
Glad that I could help. Cheater.

jjinfla
02-25-2005, 05:35 PM
Do you guys make up the rules as you go? Or are you afraid to take responsibility for your actions?

When using a coin or a number board to keep track of the games won it is the responsibility of the winner to move the coin or change the number. If the player does not do so before the break of the next game then his stupidity, lack of concentration, whatever, cost him the game.

They even announce this at our tournaments. "Players are responsible to move their coin prior to breaking. Failure to do so means you don't get the win."

Dems the rules guys. Play by them.

Of course it is permissible for the other player to remind him to move the coin, change the number, but not required.

And of course in golf you can give your opponent those 4 and 6 foot puts and when the pressure is on make him putt that 3 foot one.

And yes I did lose a game (once) because I forgot to move the coin. And it was against someone I really wanted to beat.

Jake

Troy
02-25-2005, 05:46 PM
If you feel that way, why did you label your post asking "DID I CHEAT" ???
Never mind answering, you clearly already knew the answer.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> I respect everybody's opinion about this subject. You choose to play the way you do based on your "morals". It's hard to imagine that of all the responses, almost all of you stated you would be honest and do the right thing. Hardly fits the profile of most pool players I've met. I believe what I did lies in the category of "killer instinct" and a deep desire to win, not cheating. <hr /></blockquote>

Barbara
02-25-2005, 06:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PQQLK9:</font><hr>

WWJD <hr /></blockquote>

LOL! Yeah, WWJD.

I have a couple of persons I've played against constantly that I could give two sh$ts about, but what the heck, I think they're scum anyway and if I gave them the up on a situation, I'm STILL better than they will ever be.

But would I cheat a cheater for at least for one time, YES!

Barbara

GeraldG
02-25-2005, 09:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> This happened to me last night. I was playing a guy, who I really don't care for, in a nine ball tournament. We were playing a race to 3 and were using coins to mark the scores. He wins the first game and marks the score. He wins the second game, but doesn't mark it. I didn't say anything because I figure he knows and so does everyone else. He wins the last game and as I'm getting up to shake hands, he starts pulling balls out of the pockets to play another game. I was shocked, but didn't say anything. Turns out, I won the next 3 games and went on to finish 2nd instead of 4th. Did I cheat or is it his responsibility to keep his own score? If it was somebody I liked I would have let him know. <hr /></blockquote>

There is your original question. You stated plainly that had it been someone you liked, you would have told them. Your question was twofold: "Did I cheat?" and "Is it his responsibility to keep up with his score?" We've established that it is his responsibility to keep up with his own score. We've also established that you didn't really cheat. If that's OK with you, then go with it.

I think your real question was actually something else, though. Otherwise, why would you state that if it was someone you liked you would have told them? Why is one thing right with people you like, but another thing is right with people you don't like? What's right is right, and I think you knew that because of the way you framed your question.

You come on here and ask the question, then get upset because people didn't give you the answer you wanted. If you can't take the answer, don't ask the question. Your mind was already made up, but you wanted us to tell you that it's OK. That is, in fact, looking for validation. Sorry you didn't get it.

The RIGHT thing to do is to tell the other guy that he forgot to move his marker. It's not required and it's not a "rule". It's just the honest thing to do. If honesty is not a requirement for you, then don't worry about it. Take your "wins" any way you can get them....apparently you need them.

Geraldg&lt;--- just another of the ones with "no sense".

Troy
02-25-2005, 10:15 PM
TAP, TAP, TAP !!!

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> This happened to me last night. I was playing a guy, who I really don't care for, in a nine ball tournament. We were playing a race to 3 and were using coins to mark the scores. He wins the first game and marks the score. He wins the second game, but doesn't mark it. I didn't say anything because I figure he knows and so does everyone else. He wins the last game and as I'm getting up to shake hands, he starts pulling balls out of the pockets to play another game. I was shocked, but didn't say anything. Turns out, I won the next 3 games and went on to finish 2nd instead of 4th. Did I cheat or is it his responsibility to keep his own score? If it was somebody I liked I would have let him know. <hr /></blockquote>

There is your original question. You stated plainly that had it been someone you liked, you would have told them. Your question was twofold: "Did I cheat?" and "Is it his responsibility to keep up with his score?" We've established that it is his responsibility to keep up with his own score. We've also established that you didn't really cheat. If that's OK with you, then go with it.

I think your real question was actually something else, though. Otherwise, why would you state that if it was someone you liked you would have told them? Why is one thing right with people you like, but another thing is right with people you don't like? What's right is right, and I think you knew that because of the way you framed your question.

You come on here and ask the question, then get upset because people didn't give you the answer you wanted. If you can't take the answer, don't ask the question. Your mind was already made up, but you wanted us to tell you that it's OK. That is, in fact, looking for validation. Sorry you didn't get it.

The RIGHT thing to do is to tell the other guy that he forgot to move his marker. It's not required and it's not a "rule". It's just the honest thing to do. If honesty is not a requirement for you, then don't worry about it. Take your "wins" any way you can get them....apparently you need them.

Geraldg&lt;--- just another of the ones with "no sense". <hr /></blockquote>

nhp
02-25-2005, 11:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> That is indicative of Earl's all-for-me-and-the-hell-with-you attitude.
He could/should take some lessons from golfers.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LARRY_BOY:</font><hr> As Earl Strickland recently stated on national t.v., and I quote, "if the refree didn't see it it doesn't count"..... <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

What about Karen Corr? She clearly fouled and the ref missed it, but it seems that everyone is blaming the ref instead of Karen.

Ralph S.
02-25-2005, 11:11 PM
Some here, hell, maybe all, might call me crazy, but this is my response. My answer to the initial question, is yes. I veiw this as a form of cheating. Thre was no honest mistake or any other way to phrase it. Everyone is entitled to thier own opinions. You may not like the opinions, but you asked for them.

This is the part where some may deem me as crazy. This obviously disturbed you enough to ask for some form of validation, which you are asking for in public {here at CCB}. Have you considered approaching the individual and tell him exactly what happened? You can then rectify the situation by giving him the difference between second and fourth places which could have very well been righteously his.

Remember this: Integrity is not just how one acts and carries themselves while around others. It is also how the act and carry themselves when nobody else is around. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

nhp
02-25-2005, 11:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> This happened to me last night. I was playing a guy, who I really don't care for, in a nine ball tournament. We were playing a race to 3 and were using coins to mark the scores. He wins the first game and marks the score. He wins the second game, but doesn't mark it. I didn't say anything because I figure he knows and so does everyone else. He wins the last game and as I'm getting up to shake hands, he starts pulling balls out of the pockets to play another game. I was shocked, but didn't say anything. Turns out, I won the next 3 games and went on to finish 2nd instead of 4th. Did I cheat or is it his responsibility to keep his own score? If it was somebody I liked I would have let him know. <hr /></blockquote>

IMO not marking a game in a race to 3 is like not marking 3 games in a race to 5 and like not marking 4 games in a race to 7. It's huge. Your opponent made the mistake, but IMO you should have told him out of courtesy, whether you cared for him or not. Maybe you could have made a friend out of an enemy, you never know.

I've had opportunities to cheat in matches against opponents that I didn't like, but I never did. Alot of those people became friends of mine later. For instance, about 4 years ago I was playing in a big tournament, it was a race to 8, and my opponent, who is known for being an ass, had me down 5-1. I caught stroke and zipped past him to get to the hill, 7-5, and in what could have been the final game, I had a shot at a 3-9 combination, which I made. The cueball was so close to the 3 that I ended up double-hitting the cueball. Everything happened so fast my opponent didn't notice it, his eyes must have been following the 9-ball as it dropped, and I believe that the clack of the 3-ball against the 9 muffled the sound of the double hit. He approached me to shake my hand, and I pulled the 9 ball and cueball out and spotted up the nine, giving him ball in hand. I told him I fouled, and he ended up winning that game and then the match in the next game at double-hill. Ever since then he's never been an ass to me, and we became friends. I personally value a friend much more than I do cashing in the money in a big tournament.

Chris Cass
02-26-2005, 01:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> I disagree with most of you. It's not my responsibility to keep track of my opponents score. If I'm dumb enough not to move my coin, I would expect to not get credit for the win. If I foul, I always acknowledge it. That is a totally different subject and not the issue. I'm not looking for validation. I was wondering if there was some kind of rule about forgetting to mark your score. <hr /></blockquote>

Then, why did you name your post, the way you did? You ask for opinions then, don't like the ones you receive. We could care less about what you did or didn't do. It's our opinion you wanted.

Bottom line is that you admited you got over in a situation and knew it. I along with some others read your post and understood it to be what we did. If it was a rule question then, you should of known that too before entering the event to begin with.

Some blame it on the opponent for not paying attention to the game. This may be true but it to me is just sugar coating the cheapness of the win.

I lost 2 tournaments almost in the same fashion long ago. I was in 2 tourneys where my son and wife were also in. These events are cheap $15. entry fee plus $5. for table time. This cost me both times $60. and I was knocked in the loser bracket and was coming back on the come back trail. I made it to one out of the money in both events.

I was hill hill both times and fould the cb while shooting. It was on the run out and my son asked "Why, I gave the guy bih? When I had 3 balls left and accidently fouled with touching the cb with my tip ever so slightly. My son asks me why? He then said, the guy wasn't even looking at the table. I told him it's a matter of respect for the game, my opponent and the win. I was in $60. and a chance to take it off. Only, if I kept my big mouth shut. Both my wife and son were knocked out completely.

It hurt bigtime and I sure didn't like eating that $120. but, it taught my son a valuable lesson and it's paid off for me because. I see a stand up kid player today. So, to each his own.

C.C.

Rich R.
02-26-2005, 04:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> I respect everybody's opinion about this subject. You choose to play the way you do based on your "morals". It's hard to imagine that of all the responses, almost all of you stated you would be honest and do the right thing. Hardly fits the profile of most pool players I've met. I believe what I did lies in the category of "killer instinct" and a deep desire to win, not cheating. <hr /></blockquote>
This is what gives all pool players a bad name.
We are not such a bad group, but it only takes a few. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Gayle in MD
02-26-2005, 06:44 AM
When did this happen? I don't ever remember seeing Karen cheat, but I do remember Jeanette Lee taking an extra time out when shooting against Karen, the rep didn't catch it, Karen called out to him, "She already took her time out on the two ball" then Jeanette ran back over and took her shot anyway, eventho most rules I know of, if you take a time out when you don't have one, it's ball in hand for the other player. Is this what you are thinking of, or have I missed Karen's foul in some other match?

The important thing about what heppened in the case of this thread, is that it is a mistake to be focussed on the person you are shooting against. We all run into people we don't care for, but the trick is to block that out, and shoot your best game. When someone bends the rules on me, or tries to cheat, I let them know that I know, then let them continue to shoot. Their own guilt usually throws them off, and they lose. It's amazing how often it ends up that way!

If you are playing in a tournament, and the rule has been stated, move your own coin, or lose that point, then the other guy lost the point.

If the rule is that when you call a time out when you don't have one, you give up ball in hand, and a pro player calls a timeout when she doesn't have one, and then runs up and shoots anyway, then she cheated, and the rep let her cheat.

Anyway, when did Karen foul, do you remember the match, or are you thinking of the incident with Jeanette? Doesn't sound like Karen to me.

In this case of the coin, I would have told the guy, hey, you forgot, eventho the rules didn't call for it, and especially if I didn't care for him!

Gayle in Md.

JimS
02-26-2005, 06:51 AM
You KNOW you cheated. You KNOW you were wrong. You showed a distinct lack of character and you did it in front of a bunch of people. You're embarrased and ashamed and hopeing somebody will be able to give you a rationalization that will take away the shame. It won't work. You were wrong.

You MUST go to him and own it and then go to the tournament next week and tell the crowd what you did. That's the ONLY way you'll be able to get past it, to learn from it and to not have it hurt you.

jjinfla
02-26-2005, 07:05 AM
Did you cheat? hell no!!!!!!!

You are just playing by the rules. You take the time to study and learn the rules and you follow them and your knowledge rewards you.

In baseball: You are the 3rd base coach, your man comes around 3rd and scores the winning run but you see he missed 3rd when he came by but nobody on the opposing team sees it. As the coach are you going to tell the other team? If you do you will never coach again.

In football, you watch your receiver go down the sideline, step out of bounds, come back in and catch the ball for the winning touchdown, but the ref doesn't see he stepped out of bounds. As coach are you going to say anything?

Same thing for the players in the above. They know they fouled. Do you think they will ever say anything?

I used to feel sorry for my opponents, but not anymore. If they are too dumb to understand and learn the rules then it is their fault, not mine. Don't try and put a guilt trip on me, you are wasting your time. But since I am such a nice guy I will buy them a drink after they pay up.

Here is a common instance in pool. You kick at a ball, hit it but no ball touches a rail aftr contact. A foul. If the opponent isn't paying attention and doesn't see it are you going to tell him? I instruct my APA teammates to say nothing. Afterall, the opponent should be watching the game, plus he has a coach watching the game, and he has teammates watching the game. If they all are so stupid as to miss it. Well, stupid is as stupid does.

And I always thank God for allowing my opponent to be so stupid. LOL.

Jake

SplinterHands
02-26-2005, 07:20 AM
I'm not going to apologize to him, I'm not buying him a drink and I certainly could care less if I'm ever friends with the guy. It's easy to criticize someone from behind your computer, but if you were in the same situation maybe you'd have done the same thing. It's obvious that most of you know each other personally, otherwise I would expect a few more..honest answers. You won't give your true feelings for fear of rejection by your peers. I, on the other hand, could care less if you think I cheated or not. TAP, TAP, TAP. By the way, when is the CCB tournament this fall?

Rich R.
02-26-2005, 07:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> I do remember Jeanette Lee taking an extra time out when shooting against Karen, the rep didn't catch it, Karen called out to him, "She already took her time out on the two ball" then Jeanette ran back over and took her shot anyway, eventho most rules I know of, if you take a time out when you don't have one, it's ball in hand for the other player. <hr /></blockquote>
I'm sorry, but I have not been able to find this rule writen anywhere. I have checked the rules published on the WPBA web site and the BCA web site and there is nothing that addresses this situation.
Can you please tell me where I can find this rule?

JimS
02-26-2005, 07:44 AM
Don't worry. Next time it'll be easier. You'll be able to shut down your conscience more easily and won't need to come to others for help in justify what you know is wrong. Soon it'll be easy to just steal the coin! By the way...how much money difference was there between 2nd and 4th? You stole that much from him. That's the truth. Period. But you'll just keep it and blame it on his stupidity.

You think that pool players are low life cheats and that's why you came here for justification. You thought that by comeing to fellow cheaters you'd be able to get some good "street smart" justifications for your dishonesty. When you get the truth you run from it and make up more lies to cover your tracks. That's what you do and that's who you have become because you don't have the guts to do the right thing.

Apoligozing is not for his benefit! It's for your benefit! You must be very young to have not yet learned that what you do you do to yourself. If you lie, or cheat or steal or hit people or whatever, you have to admit to yourself when you are alone with yourself and looking at that guy in the mirror that you are a liar or a thief or a violent guy. YOU ARE WHAT YOU DO.

stickman
02-26-2005, 08:07 AM
"Did I cheat?" The short answer is, you did the same thing as cheating. The key is that you admitted that you knew he forgot to mark up the game. "It's obvious that most of you know each other personally, otherwise I would expect a few more..<font color="blue">honest answers."</font color> What you did wasn't exactly honest. It's like the little kid that got caught lying and explained that he really didn't lie, he just didn't tell all the truth. "I, on the other hand, could care less if you think I cheated or not." Were we talking about lying? You wouldn't have posed the question if you didn't care. The problem is you didn't get the response you were hoping to get. Even if the other guy doesn't know it, YOU know that you didn't beat him. If you're all alone in the woods, and you fart, and nobody hears it or smells it, does that mean you didn't fart? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in MD
02-26-2005, 08:10 AM
In our APA league, a player can ask if they have a time out. If they take one when they don't have one, they lose their turn, may not be ball in hand, sorry, but they atleast lose their turn, and/or the other player gets ball in hand.

If the coach asks the shooter, "Do you want/need a timeout" the shooter has to take the time out, regardless if they wanted it or not.

BCA rules, one time out, not two. What is the penalty? I'm sure someone here can answer the question. I'd be interested in knowing myself. Every other broken rule has a penalty, right?

The last time this came up, one of the posters posted that it was ball in hand for the other playe, or loss of turn, can't remember which.

Gayle in Md.

GeraldG
02-26-2005, 08:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Did you cheat? hell no!!!!!!!

You are just playing by the rules. You take the time to study and learn the rules and you follow them and your knowledge rewards you.

In baseball: You are the 3rd base coach, your man comes around 3rd and scores the winning run but you see he missed 3rd when he came by but nobody on the opposing team sees it. As the coach are you going to tell the other team? If you do you will never coach again.

In football, you watch your receiver go down the sideline, step out of bounds, come back in and catch the ball for the winning touchdown, but the ref doesn't see he stepped out of bounds. As coach are you going to say anything?

Same thing for the players in the above. They know they fouled. Do you think they will ever say anything?

I used to feel sorry for my opponents, but not anymore. If they are too dumb to understand and learn the rules then it is their fault, not mine. Don't try and put a guilt trip on me, you are wasting your time. But since I am such a nice guy I will buy them a drink after they pay up.

Here is a common instance in pool. You kick at a ball, hit it but no ball touches a rail aftr contact. A foul. If the opponent isn't paying attention and doesn't see it are you going to tell him? I instruct my APA teammates to say nothing. Afterall, the opponent should be watching the game, plus he has a coach watching the game, and he has teammates watching the game. If they all are so stupid as to miss it. Well, stupid is as stupid does.

And I always thank God for allowing my opponent to be so stupid. LOL.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Jake,
I guess we just have a difference of opinion, here. That's cool...we all have our opinions.

I agree that he didn't cheat, there was no deliberate breaking of rules to gain an advantage.

I do not instruct my APA team not to call fouls against themselves. That is an individual choice. However, my team...to a person...DOES call fouls against themselves. Every single one of them has done it at one time or another. "No rail" is probably the most common one, next to accidentally touching the cueball during practice strokes. I do not allow my players to try and control the number of innings or to sandbag in any fashion. I have even called the LO and asked them to raise a player's skill level when I thought is was warranted, even though I knew it would affect our ability to post players. It has not prevented us from being in first place for the last 3 consecutive sessions. It hasn't hurt us at all...in fact, I think it has helped us in the long run. We have the respect of the other teams and we all know that we got there honestly.

We do have a new team in our region that is definitely playing in a dishonest fashion. They are all new APA members, the team was just formed at the beginning of this session. Every single one of them plays at about a 5 to 7 level, but since they are new they all started at 3 or 4. They have been AVERAGING 70 points a night. Every other team knows it. It's OK, though...they haven't played us yet. When they do, that average WILL drop. We will beat them. Have they violated any rules? Not really. I don't think they are REQUIRED to ask the LO to raise them to honest skill levels. Are they winning? On paper, yes. In reality, no way. Is it cheating? In this case, I think so. They knew how the APA skill level system worked, they went out and recruited good players that had never been APA members just so they could manipulate the skill level system. But, you know what? It will catch up with them. I'm not sweating it a bit. If they can sleep at night "winning" in that fashion, more power to them.

I don't feel sorry for my opponents, either. The question at hand really has nothing to do with feeling sorry for your opponent. It also has nothing to do with Golf, Baseball, Football, Soccer, Tennis, or Tiddlywinks. It has to do with playing pool and winning with integrity....and maybe life in general. Pool and Integrity are hardly ever mentioned in the same sentence, and this kind of thing is part of the reason for that. I have reminded opponents to move their markers several times when gambling. Most of the time it didn't keep me from winning, but it probably has on occasion...I don't look at it that way. I don't wan't to win by allowing my opponent to accidentally cheat themselves out of games. I've probably forgotten to move my marker a time or two, where I wasn't reminded by my opponent. If he wants to win that way, OK. I don't really consider a person dumb because they forgot to move a marker.

I want to win, but I want to win by beating my opponent. I don't let them up if I have them down....I will close the deal on them and I will take their money.

Like I said...just a difference of opinion. I consider it dishonest, you don't. To me, honesty and the rules don't necessarily have much to do with each other. Some things are within the rules, but I consider them dishonest...just as some things in life are legal, but not necessarily right. There's no need for you or anyone that thinks this is OK to be upset with the ones that don't think it's OK. It's simply a difference of opinion. I don't think anyone is going to change the way they feel about this because of this thread...it reflects more than just pool playing. It reflects something about how each person looks at life in general, IMHO....that doesn't change because of a thread in a pool forum.

As far as the analogies to other sports, with the exception of Golf, each and every one of them is heavily refereed. The referees are there to catch infractions like that. The players themselves are not expected to. It's the same with refereed pool matches. In some cases, a player isn't supposed to call a foul on himself. It has to be called by the referee. In any case, I don't think you'll find a case where officials forgot to score points for a team in baseball or football. This is about an unrefereed game between two players and winning with integrity by actually beating your opponent at the game vs winning a hollow victory (IMHO) by capitalizing on an opponent's scorekeeping error.

WaltVA
02-26-2005, 10:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> In our APA league, a player can ask if they have a time out. If they take one when they don't have one, they lose their turn, may not be ball in hand, sorry, but they atleast lose their turn, and/or the other player gets ball in hand.

Gayle in Md.

<hr /></blockquote>
Gayle - Is this some sort of local by-law there? The APA rule book says under "Coaching," Rule 11(b)"... taking too many coachings will not be considered a violation of the rules, although consistent attempts to take too many coachings may result in a sportsmanship violation. It is up to you to notify your opponent if he is taking a coaching he does not have coming." (Their emphasis.)

We mark all time-outs for both teams. If they call for a time-out they don't have coming, it's simply "they've already had theirs for this game" and no harm/no foul.

I've been involved with APA in several areas for the last 15 years and have never heard of BIH or loss of turn for an extra time-out attempt.

Walt in VA

Rich R.
02-26-2005, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> In our APA league <hr /></blockquote>
I'm sorry, but we were discussing a pro singles event, not a league team event. Although the APA is a sponsor of the WPBA, I don't believe that the WPBA adopted the APA rules as of yet.

I have not been able to locate any written rules, concerning the use of a shot clock. If, in fact, there are no written rules, I have to assume the TD has the discretion to handle it as he/she sees fit.

If we can get specific, Jeanette was not asking for a "time out" to talk to a coach. She was asking for an "extension" of the time allowed, under the shot clock. When she asked, she had approximately 10 seconds left. As soon as Karen spoke up, interupting play, I have to assume that the shot clock stopped until the TD made a ruling. When the TD agreed that Jeanette had, in fact, used her "extension" for that rack, Jeanette still had the balance of her 10 seconds left, to get the shot off. IIRC, she ran over to the table, got down on the shot and proceeded to shoot.
I just can't understand how you can say she cheated. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

The main problem is that the WPBA and the TD need to set up a visible indicator, which can be seen by all, when a player has used their extension.

I believe the other instance, where Karen allegedly cheated, was discussed before, but I never did see that example and I can't discuss the particulars. IIRC, it had something to do with her attempting to jump the cue ball and it hit the obstructing ball, but the TD didn't see it.

I apologize if this got too far off topic from the original cheating discussion. I just didn't agree with the example.

MrLucky
02-26-2005, 03:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> I'm not going to apologize to him, I'm not buying him a drink and I certainly could care less if I'm ever friends with the guy. It's easy to criticize someone from behind your computer, but if you were in the same situation maybe you'd have done the same thing. It's obvious that most of you know each other personally, otherwise I would expect a few more..honest answers. You won't give your true feelings for fear of rejection by your peers. I, on the other hand, could care less if you think I cheated or not. TAP, TAP, TAP. By the way, when is the CCB tournament this fall? <hr /></blockquote> <font color="red">Ya know this post and your question and your replies are not making a bit of sense ! If you "don't care what we think" then why in Hell did you bother to post a thread asking us what we thought ? Perhaps you are not as dishonest as you appear ! perhaps you are just very confused and conflicted? </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

pooltchr
02-27-2005, 05:57 AM
Gerald,
Check the AP
A manual. I believe it is the captain's responsibility to notify the league if they have players on their team that the captain believes is under ranked.
In Charlotte, before going to the city tournament, the captain has to sign off on the skill level for each player on his team.
I have done this to players on my team, and even myself at one time.
I had one player who I observed obviously sandbagging. I sent a note to the LO asking his skill level to be raised and locked in at the higher level.
We may not get to the city or national level as often as some other teams, but when we do, we know we deserved it and it sure feels good!
Steve

Gayle in MD
02-27-2005, 07:58 AM
You're right, Walt, I took the book out and checked it, I think it was becomming such a problem in our league, they decided to make it a foul in order to try to dispell the areguments. Sorry for the mistatement.

Gayle in Md.

GeraldG
02-27-2005, 08:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Gerald,
Check the AP
A manual. I believe it is the captain's responsibility to notify the league if they have players on their team that the captain believes is under ranked.
In Charlotte, before going to the city tournament, the captain has to sign off on the skill level for each player on his team.
I have done this to players on my team, and even myself at one time.
I had one player who I observed obviously sandbagging. I sent a note to the LO asking his skill level to be raised and locked in at the higher level.
We may not get to the city or national level as often as some other teams, but when we do, we know we deserved it and it sure feels good!
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, Steve...that's true going into the higher level tournaments. That's when it will really catch up with them if it doesn't before then. All it will take is a couple of protests during the tournament and they can easily end up disqualified from the tourney AND the whole team suspended for 2 years. Nothing at all is likely to happen during regular session league play except that their SL will automatically go up a little at the time, but it's doubtful that they will be at an honest level by the end of the session. It doesn't really matter that much because I know we can beat them. Our players are playing at the SL we should be playing at, and we are very accustomed to giving up weight...no big deal.

Chris Cass
02-27-2005, 08:50 AM
Hi Mr. Lucky,

It's the board and the way it goes. When times get slow and there isn't much to discuss in the way of new things. Then, comes the controvercial and even flame war type stuff. Don't ask me why but it seems that bordom hits. The thing were waiting for now is the timre everyone had at VF. Sure wish I could have made that trip. That I thought I had locked up from a guy that asked me to work a booth with him. great deal. Get transportation, room, tourney entry and work the booth with 4 others so, we all could play the event. I got set back a bit with this stupid cancer thing and put the kibosh on everything. Damm, even Spike wanted to go. I would have hooked up with Barry and Barbara and Carol and a bunch of other friends, Duaine. Next yr as I hope to take care of this mess I'm in.

Regards,

C.C.~~Mr. Lucky, it'll get better brother, I promise.

TennesseeJoe
02-27-2005, 09:06 AM
NO, YOU DID NOT CHEAT. It is part of the game to keep score and is no different than making a bad shot. Cheating is intentionally breaking a rule and trying to hide it. You did ot hide it but relied on the opponents responsibility to keep up with the score of the game. I do not believe that relating the rules and ediquete of golf or football to pool is logical. As an example: If a player forgets to mark his/her eight ball pocket and makes the shot do you still give them the game. Hell no. And for bystanders---they should keep their nose out of your business.

SplinterHands
02-27-2005, 09:37 AM
Very good example, TennesseeJoe. Thanks.

Troy
02-27-2005, 10:24 AM
You finally received the validation you've been seeking.
I hope you can now live with yourself.

mksmith713
02-27-2005, 11:53 AM
Even gambling if a player fails to move his coin I let them know, or if they're getting ready to shoot the wrong object ball, etc.

Advancing your coin is one thing, letting someone know they're shooting the wrong object ball is altogether different.
I'll call it if they fail to advance the coin or mark games won or whatever.
If they choose to shoot the wrong object ball, well, that's on them.
As many times as I've done it myself with no heads up from an opponent, I can't help but think that it's part of playing the game.

Chris Cass
02-27-2005, 04:14 PM
And it only took 71 replys to do it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

MrLucky
02-27-2005, 08:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> And it only took 71 replys to do it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote> <font color="red"> This post isn't a problem for me it really is quite amusing! but somewhat sad at the same time! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Scott Lee
02-28-2005, 03:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> It's easy to criticize someone from behind your computer, but if you were in the same situation maybe you'd have done the same thing. It's obvious that most of you know each other personally, otherwise I would expect a few more..honest answers. You won't give your true feelings for fear of rejection by your peers. I, on the other hand, could care less if you think I cheated or not. <hr /></blockquote>

splinterhands...It is called INTEGRITY. You cannot buy it. Some of us are born with it...others develop it as we grow up under the influence of our parents and peers. Others NEVER develop it. Integrity is what you do, and how you act, when NOBODY else is looking! The CCB tournament in held the last Saturday of the U.S. Open, in September. BTW, you say you don't care what we "CCB'rs" think, but you post to ask our advice/blessing/etc. Seems pretty odd, if you ask me. You're technically correct to say that it is the opponent's responsibility to keep track of their own score, but "integrity" is what most of us operate on...whether here on the CCB, or anywhere else in life! JMO

Scott Lee

Bob_Jewett
02-28-2005, 04:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> ... Did I cheat or is it his responsibility to keep his own score? ...<hr /></blockquote>
You cheated. In an unrefereed match, it is the responsibility of both players to see that all the rules are followed. That includes scoring. You should apologize to him the next time you see him. It'll probably startle the bejeezus out of him.

GeraldG
02-28-2005, 05:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> ... Did I cheat or is it his responsibility to keep his own score? ...<hr /></blockquote>
You cheated. In an unrefereed match, it is the responsibility of both players to see that all the rules are followed. That includes scoring. You should apologize to him the next time you see him. It'll probably startle the bejeezus out of him. <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Bob...have you read this whole thread? It would startle the bejezus out of ME if he did that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

MrLucky
02-28-2005, 10:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> ... Did I cheat or is it his responsibility to keep his own score? ...<hr /></blockquote>
You cheated. In an unrefereed match, it is the responsibility of both players to see that all the rules are followed. That includes scoring. You should apologize to him the next time you see him. It'll probably startle the bejeezus out of him. <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Bob...have you read this whole thread? It would startle the bejezus out of ME if he did that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote> <font color="red"> ME too! LMAO!!! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

PQQLK9
03-01-2005, 09:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MrLucky:</font><hr><hr /></blockquote> <font color="purple">You know your answers "beg" me to ask one question, If you weren't looking for Validation of your act and you obviously do not like the answers your questions evoked, Then why did you ask us???? </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif<hr /></blockquote>
I just came across this quote ...

"Beware of people who ask you for feedback.They may only want your validation." /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bob_Jewett
03-01-2005, 09:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr>...Hey Bob...have you read this whole thread? ... <hr /></blockquote>

Yup.

MrLucky
03-01-2005, 12:01 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

cubswin
03-01-2005, 09:15 PM
I'd say yes you did. I've always believed you should call your own fouls, and when using a coin to mark the games I think its both players job to make sure they are right.

I know a lot of players that would have done what you did, me personally I wouldn't have. Just my humble opinion of course.