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DickLeonard
03-04-2005, 12:46 PM
I would like to put forward two new cue delivery systems to improve average players. I doubt good players would stop playing long enuff to change to either systems. Usually it takes weeks to change to a new system.

The first system is the Baseball Fork Ball Grip which is created by making a V with your index and middle fingers and placing the cue in the V and holding the cue with your ring and baby finger. It rides in the Valley of your thumb and palm.

When you deliver the cue your back of your hand is aimed at the cueball almost the same delivery as a windup in fast pitched softball. Once you line up the L of your stroke arm you will see how straight back and forward the cue goes.
Try this test shot for ten shots a straight across table shot with three feet distance between cueball and object ball with your regular stroke/grip then try ten with the forkball grip. See if you can see the diference in the accuracy. If you see no difference in the grips go back to your old grip.

Grip two is formed by placing your thumb on your index finger knuckle,pointing straight down towards the floor, now cup you fingers and hold the cue in the crotch of your thumb and index finger. By pointing your thumb straight towards the floor it puts the back of your hand also in a straight line delivery system.

Gunfighters would learn how to aim guns by pointing their fingers at the targets before they would shoot bullets. This system of aiming will produce rapid results.

You can gain touch/feel by using 1/2/3/ or 4 fingers on the grip.

TRy these grips and give me your opinions.####

Sid_Vicious
03-04-2005, 12:53 PM
Will do, I'm trying grip ideas today anyway and the thumb toward the floor idea sounds repeatable in nature...sid

MrLucky
03-04-2005, 01:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> I would like to put forward two new cue delivery systems to improve average players. I doubt good players would stop playing long enuff to change to either systems. Usually it takes weeks to change to a new system.

The first system is the Baseball Fork Ball Grip which is created by making a V with your index and middle fingers and placing the cue in the V and holding the cue with your ring and baby finger. It rides in the Valley of your thumb and palm.

When you deliver the cue your back of your hand is aimed at the cueball almost the same delivery as a windup in fast pitched softball. Once you line up the L of your stroke arm you will see how straight back and forward the cue goes.
Try this test shot for ten shots a straight across table shot with three feet distance between cueball and object ball with your regular stroke/grip then try ten with the forkball grip. See if you can see the diference in the accuracy. If you see no difference in the grips go back to your old grip.

Grip two is formed by placing your thumb on your index finger knuckle,pointing straight down towards the floor, now cup you fingers and hold the cue in the crotch of your thumb and index finger. By pointing your thumb straight towards the floor it puts the back of your hand also in a straight line delivery system.

Gunfighters would learn how to aim guns by pointing their fingers at the targets before they would shoot bullets. This system of aiming will produce rapid results.

You can gain touch/feel by using 1/2/3/ or 4 fingers on the grip.

TRy these grips and give me your opinions.####

<hr /></blockquote> <font color="red">ould you perhaps illustrate these I am trying to follow but my hand can't seem to get there! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

nAz
03-04-2005, 01:40 PM
seems like the butt of my cue lines up right over my back foot much more easily then my normal grip, it does feel a lot looser on the follow through. I'll have to give this a try at the table tomorrow.

ChuckR
03-04-2005, 03:43 PM
If these systems work it won't be difficult to go around the country and see who reads the posts on this site. ChuckR

Popcorn
03-04-2005, 06:08 PM
I'm sure you have seen Mizerak play. I copied his grip years ago and saw an almost instant improvement in my play, I still use the same grip. What it fixed was a tendency to turn my wrist. It is hard to believe something like a little change in your grip can make such a difference. If I understand what you are saying, my grip is much like you describe in your first example.

iusedtoberich
03-04-2005, 07:12 PM
I'm just not seeing it. I attempted both systems, and I can't figure either grip out. Would you please add to the grip descriptions, or better still, post a few photographs or sketches?

Thanks.

PQQLK9
03-04-2005, 07:30 PM
I really thought this was going to be about shipping or traveling with cues /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Good advice as usual Dick, I seemed to have accidently stumbled on this technique
and have been using it ever since.

MrLucky
03-04-2005, 08:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote iusedtoberich:</font><hr> I'm just not seeing it. I attempted both systems, and I can't figure either grip out. Would you please add to the grip descriptions, or better still, post a few photographs or sketches?

Thanks. <hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <font color="red">ME TOO!!! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Rod
03-04-2005, 11:12 PM
Never tried #1 exactly. I have and occasionally use #2. It is a relaxed grip if done correctly and it will keep the back of your hand straight. It is less prone to wrist twisting should any of you have this problem. BTW I know without watching that many of you out there have this problem since I see it every where I go. LOL Good post Dick.

Rod

christopheradams
03-04-2005, 11:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> I would like to put forward two new cue delivery systems to improve average players.

<hr /></blockquote>

I consider myself a sort of Grip testing "test dummy". I've spent hours upon hours trying different grips and have stumbled across variations of the grips you described(At least by perception of what you describe).

I've tried the fingertip grip, just gripping with fingertips.

The "Duck grip". Make your hand into the shape of a duck /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif. and keep the cue in the back part of the ducks mouth. Keep the hand in the shape of a duck bill, don't close it down.

The classic cradle grip. Keep it firm but loose. "Don't crush the baby bird", Jeanette lee.

I also noticed top players use many variations of grips and have come to realize there is not set way to grip just a right way to grip certain variations. If you use a grip closer to a fingertip grip, you have to use more grip pressure to keep the cue from twisting out of line. If you use a more closed palm grip(more of hand covering butt) you need to use less grip pressure since the cue can't twist as much and you have to keep it fluid. Ever see Mike Davis's stroke? My perception of his stroke is that his grip is on the tight side and he a more of a palm grip. Since this is not conventional I'm sure its taken him a while to perfect this and would probably drive many of us crazy trying to copy that stroke but it works for him. He kinda looks like he is sawing wood.

ChuckR
03-05-2005, 05:46 AM
Dick, I have struggled with a lousy break for years and tried grip #1. I never realized that I was twisting my wrist since this change produced amazing results. On the first break with it, I generated much more Q ball speed than ever because I was making more solid contact with the Q ball and made 4 balls including the 9. Now I have to continue working on it. Thanks again. ChuckR

wolfdancer
03-05-2005, 10:02 AM
Dick, we should give a name to the new grip...like the western grip in tennis. I'm thinking "the Dick" would not work...what with prurient interests,et al
But the "Elroy Face" grip might..............
Career Highlights: Roy Face was 104-95 with a 3.48 ERA. He appeared in 848 games (8th on the all-time list). He was 96- 82 out of the bullpen with 193 Saves; he is in the Major League Top 10 list in both bullpen wins and saves. Face led the league in game appearances in two years (1956 and 1960) with 68. He led the league in Saves three times (1958 - 20, 1961 - 17, and 1962 - 28). Roy was a 3-time All-Star. He leads the team in Game Appearances and Saves.
Best Year: His 18 wins out of the bullpen in 1959 (17 in a row) still stands as a Major League record. His .947 winning percentage is still number one on the Major League All-Time list. He posted a 2.70 ERA that year in 57 appearances and collected 10 Saves. Face collected 22 consecutive wins in relief during the 1958 and 1959 seasons.
Fan Remembrances: Roy Face had 3 Saves in the 1960 World Series in 4 appearances.
There is a chapter in Twin Killing about ElRoy Face. It is one of the best in the book. Roy was known for his forkball; he credits pitcher Joe Page for introducing him to the pitch. Face could effectively throw the forkball on any count. Face also prided himself on his pick-off move. Roy recounts one game in Cincinnati where he came into the game with runners on 1st and 2nd with nobody out; Face picked off the runner at second, and then picked off the runner at first before ever throwing a pitch to the batter. Now that is what I call pitching out of a jam!

Rod
03-05-2005, 10:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If you use a grip closer to a fingertip grip, you have to use more grip pressure to keep the cue from twisting out of line. <hr /></blockquote>

The cue doesn't twist out of line, the operator twists the cue out of line. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rod

christopheradams
03-05-2005, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote>

The cue doesn't twist out of line, the operator twists the cue out of line. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

You sure about that? Sometimes it seems the cue had a mind of it's own.

DickLeonard
03-05-2005, 11:50 AM
MrLucky I think your probably having trouble with the fork ball grip. I forgot to mention that the stroke is created by using your wrist to create most of the pull back and then to send the cue on its way. I am out of town but when I get home I will try to be more helpful.####

DickLeonard
03-05-2005, 11:59 AM
Popcorn I know what your talking about with little Steves grip being parallel to the floor. In his day he was the most accurate pool player of all.####

Cane
03-05-2005, 12:05 PM
Dick, I know youre out of town, but can SOMEONE else who comprehends these grips please take a picture and post images of them. I'm trying to visualize from the descriptions and just can't. Skull is dense, brain is foggy... been that way since 1974! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Thanks
Bob

BillPorter
03-06-2005, 09:47 AM
Along with several others, I would appreciate someone posting photographs of the two grips. Thanks in advance!

MrLucky
03-06-2005, 09:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> seems like the butt of my cue lines up right over my back foot much more easily then my normal grip, it does feel a lot looser on the follow through. I'll have to give this a try at the table tomorrow. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">Since you seem to be the only one here who understands and has reproduced this bridge how about posting a pic of your grip? </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

stickman
03-06-2005, 08:28 PM
####, I tried the forked grip a little today, but didn't get carried away, since I was playing in a tourney. Next time I get a chance to try it out better, I plan to give it a good try. It looks funny, but felt okay. I can see how this grip would help stop twisted wrist problems. When I can more thoroughly try it, maybe I can tell if my elbow moves side to side. I didn't try the other grip. I'm not sure I understood it.

JimS
03-06-2005, 08:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BillPorter:</font><hr> Along with several others, I would appreciate someone posting photographs of the two grips. Thanks in advance! <hr /></blockquote>

Well D I T T O!! HERE BILL!! I can't seem to get a clear picture in my head. Somebody please post a picture of each/both of these grips. I'll try anything.

nAz
03-06-2005, 08:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MrLucky:</font><hr>

<font color="red">Since you seem to be the only one here who understands and has reproduced this bridge how about posting a pic of your grip? </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

eeeh I love to dude but... well Im ashamed to admit it but I do not have a digi camera in this day and age... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif However with that said I have to say that I did manage to run a rack of 9B using the 2nd grip sys. Probably better suited for 14.1.
I am trying to do it the way Mr.Leonard described but I am not sure if it is exactly the way he means. The 1st. sys. I did not get at all but I tried and managed to run a few balls. again it felt better suited for 14.1 or maybe 1P. IMO

SpiderMan
03-07-2005, 08:44 AM
Hey Rod,

Your post implied that you follow what Dick is describing. I know you have a digital camera, can you post a couple of pictures for those of us with reduced vision?

SpiderMan

DickLeonard
03-07-2005, 04:22 PM
Wolfdancer, If my memory serves me Elroy Pitched for the Albany Senators on his way to the Major Leagues. Albany was the Pittsburgh Class A farm team. Ralph KIner also played there when he was starting to break into Baseball. Neither player hung around Albany long. ####

ChuckR
03-07-2005, 05:30 PM
Dick, Is delivery system that same as a "teaspoon grip" that I have seen used by some players? The cue is held only with the index finger and thumb. Danny diLiberto uses something close to this grip. ChuckR

Rod
03-07-2005, 07:07 PM
Sorry no pictures, not enough time. It is just the way Dick explained. The first grip is a bit awkward but if you grip with the last two fingers lightly it goes straight. If you grip tight it won't, as usual, and it will not be comfortable.

The second is as mentioned, just let your thumb and index hang down. The index and thumb do not exert any pressure. Your index finger may curl up a bit but don't use it. Use just the last two or three fingers.

Both grips will track straight if you swing the cue. The second grip IMO is more functional. It's just a different way to swing the cue. That grip makes me feel like I'm going to toss the cue. By that I mean really let it slip on through. It won't, at least for me it just feels that way. There are quite a few players that use this grip. As Dick said, experienced players are not likely to try or use either, but is is a good grip.

Rod

JDB
04-05-2006, 08:30 PM
I just had a question for everyone regarding this thread. I read it when it was first discussed and have kept it in mind since but never tried it consistently.

I have been playing inconsistently lately and decided to give it a try the past couple of nights (the second grip). I have had some mixed results but haven't been trying it that long. I do feel like it gives some additional control (ie., I don't feel like I am twisting my wrist which I think is a major problem for me).

I was just curious if anyone has tried this on a long term basis and what the results were.

I would appreciate hearing any comments from anyone that has tried it.

Thanks.

isonj
04-07-2006, 05:52 AM
ok, I gave this a try last night(grip #2) and I tried it on shooting balls down the rail in the corner. I was more consistant w/ this grip. I will keep practicing it to see if it does improve my play. What pro players use the 2nd grip?

TimFXF
04-08-2006, 01:15 PM
I really like the forkball grip! It's really helped me on my longer shots. I had a hard time with "throttling". After about 15 minutes it felt pretty comfortable.

(Sorry... I tried to post 2 pictures I took of the grip, but it's not working.)