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06-01-2002, 04:12 AM
Partial snip from:
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/newpost.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;page=0&amp;view=expand ed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=0>http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/newpost.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;page=0&amp;view=expand ed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=0</a>

Rich, I agree that the rules should not be altered. But at the same time:
1. let's not change where the balls are racked.
2. let's bring back random ball placement in the rack instead of the same order every time.

new:
I'm still planing to enter some small local tournaments if my stomach holds up. In the one I watched Thur the two opponets played without any supervision. I didn't see any disputes, arguments or disagreements. At the start one flips a coin &amp; the other calls it. Then the winner breaks after that and the loser racks. The quote above mentions racking the balls in the same order every time.
Do I have to rack the balls in the same order everytime in the local nineball tournments?
If yes to either what is the proper order?
Even if the answer is no, what racking position order would be beneficial and what order would be harmful?
They don't use Sardo racks. Just the regular house triangle racks.

This leads me to wonder if there are certain ball positions that are beneficial to me to rack them that way. And I suppose there are ball positions that would be harmful to me to rack them that way. All I remember from when I played in the 60s was we always put the 1 ball in front and the 9 ball in the middle. I don't remember any special order in 8 ball. Just the 8 in the middle. And back the we use to play a lot of 3 or 4 player 9 ball with the 5 ball also a money ball. Sometimes it would be say 10 cents on the 5 ball and 25 cents on the nine. Or sometimes it would be the same amount on both balls. When playing with the 5 ball as a money ball I think it went in the second row on the left side.

I was trying to find out about the Sardo rack. It seems many say it put marks in the table. I was just checking because I thought I remembered reading many of the players seemed to not like them, be completely against them, or just think they were greatly overpriced.

JimS
06-01-2002, 07:19 AM
G'morning Eddie,

I think the BCA rule book says that in 8 ball the 1 goes in front, 8 in the middle, a solid and a stripe on the other corners. I try to put a solid and a stripe in the middle of the row behind the 8.

In 9 ball the one in front and the 9 in the middle. Search for more info. There have been recent discussions about other ball positions and Joe Tucker has a book called Racking Secrets that is not expensive. You can contact him at ne10ball@cox.net

There are lots of threads about the Sardo. You'll have to do a search but you are correct about the Sardo causing there to be indentations in the cloth.

stickman
06-01-2002, 07:55 AM
There is some good discussion about 9 ball racking, sequence, etc. here.

06-01-2002, 08:41 AM
Its impossible to rack the balls perfect without dents in the cloth...
If you dont make them the balls will just roll appart after you rack.
I dont know the sardo so i dont know how deep these dents are but i dont think they can be worse then those of hard masse shots?

Troy
06-01-2002, 08:51 AM
I could NOT disagree more !!! Racking withOUT putting dents in the cloth is not only absolutely possible, but is preferred. If you are unable to rack properly, I suggest practice.

I won't get started again on the SARDINE GIZMO. The subject raises my bloos pressure much too much.

Troy...~~~ Can rack tight without dents using a good wood triangle.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr> Its impossible to rack the balls perfect without dents in the cloth...
If you dont make them the balls will just roll appart after you rack.
I dont know the sardo so i dont know how deep these dents are but i dont think they can be worse then those of hard masse shots? <hr></blockquote>

06-01-2002, 09:01 AM
I would bet a lot of money on it that it is impossible to make all balls touching without putting dents in the table ( and even then im not sure ... )
You can make all balls touching with a normal rack ( i dont have any problem with this ) but as soon as you take away the pressure with your hands and take away the triangle the balls will spread appart a litle...
Its realy not the rack that is the problem, good anough racks exist, it because of the cloth that its impossible to rack with all balls touching.

Scott Lee
06-01-2002, 10:26 AM
Malcolm...Here you go again, shooting your mouth off about something which you obviously know NOTHING about! LOL Since you brought it up, I will take the point here, and accept your wager of "a lot of money", on whether or not I can rack all 15 balls (or 10 or 9), using an ordinary wood rack, and have ALL the balls touching, after the rack has been removed! Go ahead and respond to this, about when and where you'd like to meet...and more important, how much you're willing to post! I will meet ANY wager (because I know there are tons more people here, like Troy, who will want to get in on the "action"! LOL) you would like to make! Sometimes it appears that you have SOME knowledge of pool, but then other times (like now) you just go and stick your foot in your mouth! LOL

Scott Lee

Patrick
06-01-2002, 11:23 AM
It is easy to get 2 balls touching but if you want them to be frozen, you need to apply pressure to them.
In racks on a cloth without holes in it, the balls at the edges are not supported, so there will not be any pressure to the balls that is required to make them frozen.
I think what Malcolm meant was frozen and not touching.

The reason why the balls get frozen with holes in the cloth is because the balls sink into the holes and stay in the same place when the other balls add pressure to it.

You can make all balls frozen without any support if the balls are sticky. Like with glue.

Patrick

06-01-2002, 11:40 AM
Please dont make me look stupid, i know what im talking about...
There is a difference between touching and being seperated by 1mm or even less.
A huge difference in the way forces are transfered in the rack.
When youve racked the balls take a closer look to see.

Scott Lee
06-01-2002, 11:50 AM
Malcolm...Nobody is trying to make you look stupid! You are doing it to yourself. I stand by my offer to take you up on YOUR wager of "a lot of money"! How much...when...and
where?

BTW, Patrick...what is the difference between balls touching each other and being frozen? I would equate them as the same. If a ball is "touching" a rail, it is said to be 'frozen'.

Scott Lee

06-01-2002, 11:53 AM
I think im a litle to far to just come over and do the bet thing with you ...
I realy dont want to take your money either, i dont care much about it.
Just try it out for yourselve and look between every ball.
It might be possible to rack them all frozen but only if you hit on top of the balls with the cueball ( and even then it isnt easy ).
Or some other way of making dents in the cloth.

06-01-2002, 11:58 AM
If it is so easy to rack the balls why does it take 5 mins to rack them before every break ( on accu stats ).
And then the other guy comes and checks the rack and tells to rack again ( i guess they werent so frozen ).

Patrick
06-01-2002, 11:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr>
BTW, Patrick...what is the difference between balls touching each other and being frozen? I would equate them as the same. If a ball is "touching" a rail, it is said to be 'frozen'.

Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>

I thought you knew more about pool than this, and you are a pool instructor?
The balls are not perfectly round, this is why you get friction.
Imagine two balls made of sandpaper, one sand particle can be touching another particle on the other ball, this is touching. When they are frozen, then most number of sand particles are touching at the same time.

Patrick

Scott Lee
06-01-2002, 12:01 PM
I can rack them TIGHT in about 10 seconds! I can't speak for whoever you are talking about, but I have seen people take extraordinary time in racking. Maybe they just don't know how to rack...maybe there were problems with the table or cloth. All I know is...I can rack them tight regardless, as long as I have a good wood rack.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
06-01-2002, 12:06 PM
Malcolm...Come on now! You're backing down from your CERTAIN point of view! You're the one who made the incredibly bold statement. You're too far from me? Where are you from? I'm sure we can come to some agreement here. I travel all over the country every year! As far as you not wanting to take my money...PULEEZE! LOL I will certainly be happy to take yours! I neither have to put dents in the cloth, nor tap the balls to get a tight rack.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
06-01-2002, 12:14 PM
Patrick...I don't play with too many pool balls with sand on them! LOL Anybody else here think that balls that are touching are NOT frozen?

As far as pool balls being not completely round...you should do a little research with Saluc in Belgium! They go to extreme lengths to make sure the parameters of their balls are very tight. I don't claim to know everything about pool...like you do...but I can call any number of students right here who have learned much from me (not to mention thousands of others across the country). Just curious, but how is YOUR pool school coming? Got lots of students signed up? LOL

Scott Lee

Patrick
06-01-2002, 12:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> Patrick...I don't play with too many pool balls with sand on them! LOL Anybody else here think that balls that are touching are NOT frozen?

As far as pool balls being not completely round...you should do a little research with Saluc in Belgium! They go to extreme lengths to make sure the parameters of their balls are very tight. I don't claim to know everything about pool...like you do...but I can call any number of students right here who have learned much from me (not to mention thousands of others across the country). Just curious, but how is YOUR pool school coming? Got lots of students signed up? LOL

Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>

If the balls would be round, there wouldn't be any throw and you wouldn't be able to transfer spin to the object ball.
I used the sand as an example, the pool ball has smaller particles.

Patrick

Karatemom
06-01-2002, 01:11 PM
Hi Jim. Chris showed me how to rack 8 and 9 ball and you're right about both. In 9 ball, I put the 1 in front, 9 in the middle, then put the 2 and 4 behind the 9 if your opponent is breaking, that way the 1 and 2 are separated at the break. If you break your own racks, which is uncommon, then I put the 2 and 3 behind the 1. Have my first local 7 and under tourney Monday night and plan to run them out!!!! LOL.

Karatemom

JimS
06-01-2002, 01:39 PM
Believe it! Do it!

06-01-2002, 02:22 PM
Im from belgium.
If you can rack them tight without doing anything with the cloth you must have special cloth where you play.
if a ball is on the edge of one of those cloth fibres ( sorry my english ... )
then a ball will roll away from the other and setle between two of those uh wires. its becuase the cloth isnt smooth that its not possible.
Explain to me how you rack the balls please ... Would be great if it is possible but i just cant see how sorry.

06-01-2002, 02:24 PM
yehaa im a journey man!
I just hated that newbie tag on my name :-)

Troy
06-01-2002, 03:14 PM
Oh yes, I have "special cloth" all right... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif How about used Simonis 860 on a GG-II in a standard Pool Room , that's REAL SPECIAL... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Be sure there is NO build-up UNDER the spot and NO hole in the cloth under the spot. Slide the rack into position with your fingers at the rear of the rack holding the row of balls and lift the triangle off carefully. Bingo - FROZEN BALLS !!!

By the way, anyone TAPPING balls on my table gets a severe tongue lashing and is invited to LEAVE !!!

Troy...~~~ I accept PAYPAL for your payment; you've LOST your wager..... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr> Im from belgium.
If you can rack them tight without doing anything with the cloth you must have special cloth where you play.
if a ball is on the edge of one of those cloth fibres ( sorry my english ... )
then a ball will roll away from the other and setle between two of those uh wires. its becuase the cloth isnt smooth that its not possible.
Explain to me how you rack the balls please ... Would be great if it is possible but i just cant see how sorry. <hr></blockquote>

06-01-2002, 03:26 PM
I realy dont mean to be rude, but bingo FROZEN BALLS ... no way sorry :-)
Have you ever looked up close between the balls?
Im saying it again 1mm or even less between is a big difference with frozen,
1mm or 5mm is almost no difference.
Its the way the force is transfered in the rack that is completely different.
I need them to be touching all for the way i play the 1ball in the sidepocket, the way i do it doesnt work when they arent perfect.

Troy
06-01-2002, 03:28 PM
Wrong, and Wrong..... I suggest you study up on Physics prior to making foolish statements.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Patrick:</font><hr>
If the balls would be round, there wouldn't be any throw and you wouldn't be able to transfer spin to the object ball.
Patrick <hr></blockquote>

Troy
06-01-2002, 03:46 PM
I believe this part of your statement.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr> .....the way i do it doesnt work.....
<hr></blockquote>

06-01-2002, 03:50 PM
come on ...
youre being stupid now

Troy
06-01-2002, 04:00 PM
And with that response I retire from the discussion. I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr> come on ...
youre being stupid now <hr></blockquote>

06-01-2002, 05:18 PM
youre an idiot sorry
damn im sick of all you idiots here
nobody understands this? or are you all scared to say something different then this idiot

06-01-2002, 05:26 PM
I wanted to stay friendly but this is just to much ...
This guy is making fun of me about something he is clearly wrong about.

06-01-2002, 05:36 PM
I keep seeing the term "good wood rack" being used. Are the wood racks found in most pool halls considered good? I wouldn't know what to look for or how to tell if a wood rack was good or not. I wasn't trying to gain any unfair advantage when I started this thread. I wanted to know what was the best order to rack the balls in so I wouldn't leave myself at a bigger disadvantage then I will already be starting my play at. And I never really knew how to tell if a rack of balls was good or not by looking at it. Everyone thanks for all the useful information.

06-01-2002, 05:41 PM
You shouldnt try to find a good order to put the balls.
They should be random to add variety in the racks and because it makes very litle difference anyways.
9ball is 1 on front 9 in midle and 8ball is 8 in midle and the two wing balls must be of a different group.
Just throw all the other balls at random in the rack.

06-01-2002, 05:47 PM
Hi Scott.
Is it easy to give someone a good rack in 9 ball? When I use to play I would just put the 9 balls into the rack. Then side them to the spot trying to keep them touching. Then move the rack slightly forward and try to take it off without moving any of the balls. Say I'm in a tournament and someone breaks after I have racked. And say the balls don't break apart good. Can I just volunteer to rerack and have him break again? I've never seen that done. But I only watched 1 tournament.

cheesemouse
06-01-2002, 06:01 PM
Malcolm,
Your a journeyman now you can make it on your own. Just because you think it don't make it so. Some the this is the way it is statements you make lead more experienced players to believe you don't know your a\$\$ from a tea kettle. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

JimS
06-01-2002, 06:04 PM
Hi Eddie,

As you said, just put the balls in the rack with the 1 up front and the 9 in the middle...roll'm up as tight as you can...if they move when you move the rack, do it again. You'll find the right spot where they'll stay tight.

If the shooter gives you a hard time about giving him a slug rack then you can offer to rack'm again I suppose....that would be up to you. If you're careful it'll work out fine.

06-01-2002, 06:08 PM
Thanks Jim.
I just didn't want to offer to rack them again, have someone accept, and then find out something like I have to forfeit the rack once I move the balls for the rerack.

06-01-2002, 06:17 PM
One more thing. It seems like a friendly tournament. I didn't see any signs of any disagreements at all. The only thing I noticed was one of the older players got out of his seat to be sure one of the younger players had one foot touching the floor while he was sitting on the table attempting a sort of masse shot. But even then he was just checking and there weren't any hard feelings. Of course all the players really seem to be trying to win. I saw a 3 player against a 6 1/2. The 6 1/2 scratched on the break and left the 9 ball near the corner. The 3 made a combination and went up 1 to 0. Then later the 6 1/2 missed on the 9. The 3 handicap was now 2 to 2. And he lost. And later by the counter I said nice playing. You almost beat that older player. He said I should have won. Then he told his friend how he blew it. So everyone is trying. But no one watches any of the games. I mean the other players might once they have lost. But there aren't any referees and the owner never had to leave from behind the counter.

Chris Cass
06-01-2002, 06:44 PM
Malcolm, it's clearly obvious that you don't gamble at pool because you have no clue of what you're talking about. The reason why you rack in a certain order is for you to remember the ball placement. If a player is consistently making the same ball on the break, it is to your advantage to replace that ball with a different numbered ball for control in 9 ball. If there are spots involved, and you give the player the 7 ball wild, that means when you give a player an extra ball to win on, you would place that ball behind the one. If the player consistently makes a wing ball, then you would put the 8 eight there. The reason being, if the 8 goes on the break and the player runs down and fails to reach the 7 ball, you shoot from 7 to 9 without having to make that extra ball. But I see from your correspondence with Scott Lee, you don't gamble anyway. Next time you're in a bar, and you're about to rack a game of 8 ball, put all the solids on one side, and all the stripes on the other and see what your opponent says to you.
Balls also can be frozen away from the spot area merely by breaking. Without even tapping on the table, you'll see two balls frozen somewhere, sometime.

C.C.

JohnnyP
06-01-2002, 08:22 PM
Chris:

In the late '60's I was in the USN, stationed in Norfolk. I played at St. Elmo's, downtown.

I was a "producer", and payed for my lessons.

They had a guy that worked for the house that racked. Seemed like my oponent would always make a wing ball on the break.

Couldn't see anything funny going on, so I never said anything.

Scott Lee
06-01-2002, 08:27 PM
Eddie...In 8-ball, on the break, you must drive 4 balls to a rail (or pocket something) for a legal break. In the event that 4 balls do not go to a rail, it is a foul, and the incoming player has 3 choices...take the table as is and shoot; rerack and break again; rerack and have the person who fouled break again. 9-ball is the same. You must drive 4 balls to a rail.

I think it is easy to give someone a good rack (tight), provided you have the right tool. The plastic racks you see many places make it hard to rack the balls tightly. There are really cheap wood racks that do the same thing. A quality wood rack will be somewhat heavy, and very sturdily built. The rack takes a lot of abuse most places, so, imo, buying good racks for a few bucks more, makes more sense than buying cheap ones, and having to replace them all the time.

Scott Lee

Troy
06-01-2002, 09:00 PM
To add a bit to Scott's post..... A plastic triangle will bow with a little pressure causing a "false" appearance of tightness and the balls will NOT stay put when the plastic is relaxed &amp; removed. A lightweight wood triangle will have similar characteristics. The cause is partially due to lack of reinforcement at the three corners.

An solid Oak Triangle of approx 3/8" thick by 2" wide stock constructed with either tongue &amp; groove or mortice &amp; tenon reinforced corners is much more sturdy and provides the necessary support for a tight rack.

Troy...~~~ May only be a "B" player, but is a "AAA" Racker.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr>
I think it is easy to give someone a good rack (tight), provided you have the right tool. The plastic racks you see many places make it hard to rack the balls tightly. There are really cheap wood racks that do the same thing. A quality wood rack will be somewhat heavy, and very sturdily built. The rack takes a lot of abuse most places, so, imo, buying good racks for a few bucks more, makes more sense than buying cheap ones, and having to replace them all the time.

Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>

Chris Cass
06-01-2002, 09:05 PM
Hi Johnny,

What the racker was doing was, racking the balls slightly above the spot. Another way, is that the wing ball wasn't touching the 2 balls, behind the 9. Rather, one of the balls behind the wing ball, that was going. One other way that is more noticable, is the rack may have been slightly tilted towards the corner pocket, the wing ball was going in.

I too grew up in a hall that old Kelly used to rack the balls, for a quarter a rack. He would somehow push the rear ball forward and the wing balls would push slightly outward, causing nothing to go. LOL

I played straight pool there and it also was my first ph. I loved it, I was so excited to be on table 1. It took me along time to get to play on that table. Not many places like that anymore. Table 1 was reserved for only gambling and only for the best players. It was an old Brunswick with drop pockets and was kept in the best conditions at all times. It was by the front door and Don Rose played on it.

Thanks for the memories,

06-02-2002, 04:25 PM
What do you know about this? Just because these guys come longer here doesnt mean they know more ....
Damn im sick of this.

06-02-2002, 04:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris Cass:</font><hr> Malcolm, it's clearly obvious that you don't gamble at pool because you have no clue of what you're talking about. The reason why you rack in a certain order is for you to remember the ball placement. If a player is consistently making the same ball on the break, it is to your advantage to replace that ball with a different numbered ball for control in 9 ball. If there are spots involved, and you give the player the 7 ball wild, that means when you give a player an extra ball to win on, you would place that ball behind the one. If the player consistently makes a wing ball, then you would put the 8 eight there. The reason being, if the 8 goes on the break and the player runs down and fails to reach the 7 ball, you shoot from 7 to 9 without having to make that extra ball. But I see from your correspondence with Scott Lee, you don't gamble anyway. Next time you're in a bar, and you're about to rack a game of 8 ball, put all the solids on one side, and all the stripes on the other and see what your opponent says to you.
Balls also can be frozen away from the spot area merely by breaking. Without even tapping on the table, you'll see two balls frozen somewhere, sometime.

C.C. <hr></blockquote>

I know there are advantages on racking a certain way, but it is cheating.
You should rack them randomly without even looking at the balls.

Ofcource balls can be frozen sometimes, it happens randomly, it depends on the cloth.
Put two balls frozen on the cloth without pushing on them and release, see how many times they keep frozen and how many times they roll appart.
This is what i mean.
When you rack all balls the same happens, you rack them frozen but some will roll appart.

06-02-2002, 04:39 PM
I dont gamble, i think its stupid.
Wheter you win or not depends on wich opponent you chose, whats the point.
Besides, nobody gambles on pool where i live, only one guy wanted to gamble on pool with me, i could easily take 1000\$ a month from him if i wanted but i just dont do that...
I think he wanted to do it because he likes a litle pressure? He knew i was better, i beat him almost every time ...
I didnt want him to think i was playing pool with him for money, i play for fun.

Chris Cass
06-02-2002, 05:27 PM
Malcom,

I don't mean to jump all in your face. I think you have the right to your opinion and can voice it here. However your opinion is just as valuable as the next guy or girls too. You should keep an open mind to the experienced players and instructors that have years on knowledge on you.

You don't have to gamble. If you did you'ld understand more about strategy. How can you call racking in a specific order, cheating? It's strategy plain and simple. If you think it's luck that a lot of the pro's are making the corner ball every time then, your just nieve.

You don't think the MPBA did it?

C.C.

06-02-2002, 06:06 PM
It isnt luck to make the corner ball, you just have to hit the 1ball at the right angle and all balls need to be frozen.
This is the only way its possible to make the corner ball go in that direction. If there is a small gap between the cornerball and the ball behind it, the cornerball will take the natural angle of of the ball behind it ( the stunpath you call it i think ) instead of going in front of it in the corner pocket.
Even if the cornerball and the one behind it are touching, the force coming on the cornerball would be different if other balls in the rack are different so again it will take a differrent path...

Ofcource the cornerball can still go in if the rack isnt perfect but it will need a different hit on the 1ball every time and a certain percentage of those will be where you hit the 1ball so the cornerball will go in...
But you cant be sure of it this way, it isnt up to you, it just depends on the rack.

I do think that all balls touching might have an insignificant influence, and maybe just the cornerball and the one behind it touching is anough, but this is just a tought, i realy dont know for sure.

Just try this test: freeze two balls ( make sure they are touching )and hit the cluster at a 10 degree angle.
You will see the first ball go way in front of the stunpath.
Try it at different angles and see how much it affects the angle of the first object ball.
Now do the same with the balls being seperated by 1mm, the ball will go at the stunpath at every angle.

Ofcource you still think you can rack the balls perfect every time so here is a question: if you can always rack perfectly without the tightrack then why is it only from when they started using the tightrack that people started complaining about the cornerball going in every time and decided to put the 9ball on the spot? And dont tell me its because the rack is always at the exact place for it! If that was the problem it would be very easy to check the possition and angle of the rack and adjust where you must hit the 1ball.

cheesemouse
06-02-2002, 06:10 PM
Malcolm,
I have cousins that live in your cubboards and they watch you rack, they say you do it wrong and your not good at listening or learning from experience. Maybe if you bang your head against the wall it will feel better.
I can rack them very well and I gamble too, that's what made me learn, thank-you very much. Heheheh /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

06-02-2002, 06:16 PM
Why are you lying.
I even play at home now, i dont go to a bar.
And where i played, there isnt a single good player.
They are happy to make one ball, its like a race in 8ball.
yehaa i got an other ball! im winning!! yeah another one !!! after a half hour of playing the same rack they are both taking about 50 shots on the 8ball before it goes in.

06-02-2002, 06:20 PM
Why did you even post that cheesemouse?

cheesemouse
06-02-2002, 06:32 PM
Malcolm,
I posted that because I think your in some kind of trance and that a gentle slap in the face may bring you out of it. I was only trying to help your game. That's what we do here, some of us anyway. Post away, I kind of like your anger as a change of pace. I doubt that it will help your game but, hey, what do I know I've only been playing since 1959. Cheerio /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif
P.S. Lighten up a smiggen. Racks are easier to run when your smiling. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

06-02-2002, 08:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr> Why are you lying.
I even play at home now, i dont go to a bar.
And where i played, there isnt a single good player.
They are happy to make one ball, its like a race in 8ball.
yehaa i got an other ball! im winning!! yeah another one !!! after a half hour of playing the same rack they are both taking about 50 shots on the 8ball before it goes in.
<hr></blockquote>

altogether now, boys and girls; what's the name i'm think of?

dan...for extra points: name the planet.

cheesemouse
06-02-2002, 09:04 PM
Dan,
I think I know this one........aahhhhhhh THE MOON.......no......ahhhhhh......ASIA......no....th at's a country......ahhhhhhh......I got it GEORGE WASHINGTON....whew, I hate these tests....

06-02-2002, 09:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: cheesemouse:</font><hr> Dan,
I think I know this one........aahhhhhhh THE MOON.......no......ahhhhhh......ASIA......no....th at's a country......ahhhhhhh......I got it GEORGE WASHINGTON....whew, I hate these tests.... <hr></blockquote>

in context, you are exactly correct.

dan

06-02-2002, 09:36 PM
As a referee, I can assure you if the balls are touching, they are considered"frozen"- end of story. Patti I

Patrick
06-03-2002, 03:30 AM
You don't understand what I mean with round, I don't mean round as in the balls form, I mean closer. The gear effect doesn't work if the ball's surface is perfectly flat.
I know about physics, I read the APAPP before and I knew everything that said there already, the only thing I didn't know was that heat and sound creates friction. I don't need to read anything to know how something works, only stupid humans need to.

Why are you trying to make me and Malcolm look stupid? Is this fair? When we are right about something, you make other people think we are wrong.

Patrick

06-03-2002, 04:13 AM
cheese i was just asking a question about the sardo rack here.
what i get is people saying you dont need it to rack the balls perfectly.
i know for sure this isnt true and i know why so you expect me to just dont say anything when people say i obviously dont know anything for saying that?
Its you who are wrong about it so why should i have have to agree instead of you?

Patrick
06-03-2002, 04:18 AM
Most humans use the primitive memory and experience method, they all have different ideas how it is, a small part of the ideas are right, if the same thing happens when they do the same thing 100 times, then they say that's the way it is, they don't know why it happens. If they are using a bad stroke and hit in another place than they think, they will argue with the ones who are right, the memory and experience players think they are right but they are not.

Few use the "know" method, and they know why something happens.

Patrick

Fred Agnir
06-03-2002, 07:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr>
Just try this test: freeze two balls ( make sure they are touching )and hit the cluster at a 10 degree angle.
You will see the first ball go way in front of the stunpath.
Try it at different angles and see how much it affects the angle of the first object ball.<hr></blockquote>
This is the "10 Times Fuller" system which has been in print for decades. In case you were willing to learn something.

Fred

SPetty
06-03-2002, 07:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fred Agnir:</font><hr>This is the "10 Times Fuller" system which has been in print for decades. In case you were willing to learn something. <hr></blockquote>Hi Fred,

I did a Google search and a rec.sport.billiard search, but did not come up with any pool-related hits for "10 Times Fuller".

I am willing to learn something, but I don't know how in this case!

06-03-2002, 07:57 AM
If you know this then why is it so hard to believe the balls must be frozen.
I saw someone say whats the big deal if balls are 1mm seperated like its a perfectionist thing...
It just is very important, thats what i was showing.

06-03-2002, 08:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Fred Agnir:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;This is the "10 Times Fuller" system which has been in print for decades. In case you were willing to learn something. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Hi Fred,

I did a Google search and a rec.sport.billiard search, but did not come up with any pool-related hits for "10 Times Fuller".

I am willing to learn something, but I don't know how in this case!
<hr></blockquote>

Well just do what i said, that is what he sais the 10 times fuller system is.
Try it out on a table.
As for why it happens, i dont realy know...
Something to do with the force being transfered to both balls at the same time and for some reason not all of it gets transfered to the far ball of the cluster so there is still speed on the one you hit with the cueball.
And i dont think youre gonna find the answer of why on any pool sites.

Fred why do you call this a system? its just what happens to the balls, its not realy a system youre using...

06-03-2002, 08:08 AM
What do you mean in case im willing to learn something fred?
Im always willing to learn something...
I just bought 15 books on amazon, why do you think that is.

Its just very anoying when people talk to me like i dont know anything about pool when they obviously have no idea what they are talking about ( well they have the wrong idea about things )

First the throw thing then about the racking ... Im actualy surprised you dont even understand this.

06-03-2002, 08:37 AM

Fred Agnir
06-03-2002, 11:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr> What do you mean in case im willing to learn something fred?
Im always willing to learn something... <hr></blockquote>

and yet said

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr>And i dont think youre gonna find the answer of why on any pool sites. <hr></blockquote>

This is a contradiction. You say you are willing to learn something, yet you are closed-minded that one can't find the answers to some of the oft discussed questions on a pool site. You can, if you (Malcolm) are willing to learn. I'm not convinced you are.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr>Its just very anoying when people talk to me like i dont know anything about pool when they obviously have no idea what they are talking about ( well they have the wrong idea about things )<hr></blockquote>
You are the common denominator. I don't think you've realized this yet.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcom:</font><hr>First the throw thing then about the racking ... Im actualy surprised you dont even understand this. <hr></blockquote>
I'm surprised you think I don't understand this. How did you ever get that crazy idea?

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-03-2002, 11:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr> If you know this then why is it so hard to believe the balls must be frozen.<hr></blockquote>
Was there something in my post that suggested that I thought the balls must be frozen? I didn't write that.

Malcolm, this is a discussion board. We come here to discuss as peers. If you're coming in this board with the idea that you are the teacher, and we are buffoon students, then you've started on the wrong track. We as a group are an invaluable learning resource.

Fred

SPetty
06-03-2002, 11:45 AM
FYI, I received this via private message:

This seems to fly in the face of "all" the books that say that the frozen ball will travel on the tangent line...

06-03-2002, 11:52 AM
that is no contradiction, i said he wasnt gonna find this on the internet because they dont discuss these things anywhere...
They only discuss more simple things, they discuss what happens, not why it happens.

Its obvious you dont know this, otherwise you would have supported what i said instead of not saying anything.
Or you are affraid to disagree with everybody.
If you understand the balls must be frozen for the wingball to go in the direction of the pocket then you understand you need a tight rack thats what i was talking about...

Fred Agnir
06-03-2002, 11:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> I did a Google search and a rec.sport.billiard search, but did not come up with any pool-related hits for "10 Times Fuller".<hr></blockquote>

Use the word "ten."

It is, to my knowledge, not an exact system. That is, no calculation exists to prove this system. It is empirical. That is, people set up the frozen ball shots, noted their starting angle of attack, and noted the final path of the first ball. A close approximation is that the first object ball travels in a direction 10 times the angle of attack for certain angles. That is, the angle of attack should be about 10 times fuller.

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-03-2002, 11:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm::</font><hr>that is no contradiction, i said he wasnt gonna find this on the internet because they dont discuss these things anywhere<hr></blockquote>
You are wrong. I have been part of rec.sport.billiard, an internet usenet group that participate in lengthy detailed discussions on the physics of pool for about 6 years. I and others point to them often as references. Read them. Maybe you need to learn a few things before spouting, okay?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mr. Knowitnot:</font><hr>
They only discuss more simple things, they discuss what happens, not why it happens.<hr></blockquote>
You show your ignorance yet again, sir.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: the nuisance:</font><hr>Its obvious you dont know this<hr></blockquote>
You've worked my last nerve. If I could filter you, I would. Just because someone responds to you or to anyone doesn't mean they disagree. So, shut the f*ck up already.

Fred

06-03-2002, 12:22 PM
Ok then explain what they said about that frozen ball thing.
And dont tell me i dont know what im talking about, im sure i know a lot more then you.
I wouldnt even be saying this if you werent saying the opposite.

Fred Agnir
06-03-2002, 12:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr> Ok then explain what they said about that frozen ball thing.<hr></blockquote>
Which frozen ball thing? The frozen pair or the frozen wing ball? I was commenting on the frozen pair shot, that you were babbling on. You were implying that there isn't much information out there on it. Well, there is. Hence my comments. You wanna know something about it? Read any book that references Bob Jewett. He calls it the "ten times fuller system." As I said, there is no such physics calculations, because the modeling is tricky. For the most part, we can assume that Hertz Law is the model, but that's about it. The empirical testing shows that the first ball leaves the frozen pair at angle 10 time less full than the oncoming cueball's angle.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: the most arrogant man in the room:</font><hr>And dont tell me i dont know what im talking about, im sure i know a lot more then you.<hr></blockquote>

Wanna bet? I've already shown to your face that you don't know what you're talking about. What part of "people have been discussing these things on the internet longer than you've been thinking about them" don't you understand.

Try me, if you're willing to learn rather than boast. If you prefer, send me some long-winded message privately, rather than busy up the space here.

Fred

06-03-2002, 12:48 PM
Ok i might send messeges to you, actualy i do think youre probably intelligent and have a lot of knowledge about this.
But im in a hurry here so i type some things that are quicker then thinking about every post i make an hour.
It would take my whole day posting here.

Just dont say i got no knowledge about this, if you do youre wrong, it just gets me frustrated so i say these things...

06-03-2002, 01:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr> cheese i was just asking a question about the sardo rack here.
what i get is people saying you dont need it to rack the balls perfectly.
i know for sure this isnt true and i know why so you expect me to just dont say anything when people say i obviously dont know anything for saying that?
Its you who are wrong about it so why should i have have to agree instead of you? <hr></blockquote>

There are still 45 Sardo's left at this dutch auction for \$79.
http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=1832591298&amp;r=0&amp;t=0&amp;sho wTutorial=0&amp;ed=1023180498&amp;indexURL=0&amp;rd=1

Currently US \$79.00 First bid US \$79.00
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Description

Brand new in a sealed Sardo factory box, Sardo Tight Rack M-2000, template and video. The official rack of the WPBA 2001 Classic Tour. This is truly an amazing invention. The first change in racking pool balls in 50 years. A must have for any pool enthusiast.The July issue of Pool &amp; Billiards magazine has a great article by Earl Strickland praising the Sardo Tight Rack. List price is \$169. For more information and pictures go to http://www.tightrack.com/mainframe.htm. Buyer pays \$12 for Shipping, Handling and Insurance. Bid/buy with confidence, over 307 positive feedbacks. 185 sold to date and all customers are very satisfied! Any questions, e-mail me at TrimpeyC@aol.com ************************************************** ************************************************** **** PROTECT YOUR INVESTMENT***Just got in cases for these racks direct from Sardo. They are black hard plastic, felt lined with a handle and 2 clasps. Perfect for storage or portability. If you're interested please add \$45 to order. Case and rack ship together with no extra shipping costs.

06-03-2002, 02:03 PM

Scott Lee
06-03-2002, 04:13 PM
Malcolm...I can't believe you'd actually make a statement like, "You cannot rack the balls perfectly without a Sardo Rack." This beauty of a statement would specifically mean that NOBODY in the history of pool (at least for the past 100 yrs) has EVER racked a perfectly tight rack before the introduction of the Sardo rack 3-4 yrs. ago! What a hoot! That has to be one of the biggest BS statements about pool EVER! Hell, I've racked a perfect rack zillions of times myself! LOL You have just GOT to quit making these assinine statements. Go with: "In my opinion...", and you'll start getting a lot less flack from us here.

Scott Lee

06-03-2002, 04:39 PM
It is not my oppinion, this is how it is.
Ofcource there will have been some perfect racks, but i think there is something wrong with your definition of a perfect rack...
Just try the two ball cluster i explained
More then 80% of the time they will roll appart after you release them.
This usualy is between about 0.1mm and 2mm.
So what do you think the odds are of racking a perfect 9 or 15 ball rack?

Scott Lee
06-03-2002, 04:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr> It is not my oppinion, this is how it is.
Ofcource there will have been some perfect racks, but i think there is something wrong with your definition of a perfect rack...
Just try the two ball cluster i explained
More then 80% of the time they will roll appart after you release them.
This usualy is between about 0.1mm and 2mm.
So what do you think the odds are of racking a perfect 9 or 15 ball rack? <hr></blockquote>

Where do you get these wild percentages? LOL The odds?With me racking? I'd say the odds are at least 10-1 in my favor!

Like I said...start your posts with, "in my opinion" (whether you think it is or not), and you will get much less flack...as well as not looking and sounding so much like such an idiot, ala Patrick!

Scott Lee

06-03-2002, 06:02 PM
Try it before saying this! damnit.
Just put two balls in a cluster and look between them after you release!
And dont press them down...
I even tried it again on my table before posting the percentage, i tought it was around 50% but i tried 22 times on different smooth cloth parts ( without any dents ) and they kept frozen 4 times.
I have a simonis 860 cloth btw...
Just try it before you comment again.
I think youre seeing frozen balls when they actualy are not, look closer.

06-03-2002, 06:12 PM
I dont think clustering two balls and observing if they remain clustered is an oppinion...
Its clearly just what happens.
And i release very carefuly without pulling them appart with my fingers.
You even rack the balls while pushing them together wich will make them bend in a litle so when you release they will even push themselves appart slightly.
So actualy its worse then better.

This has nothing to do with how you rack realy...
Why do you think the sardo only works with dents in the cloth.
And dont tell me because its a piece of crap, thats exactly what i expected you to say...

Patrick
06-03-2002, 06:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Malcolm:</font><hr> It is not my oppinion, this is how it is.
Ofcource there will have been some perfect racks, but i think there is something wrong with your definition of a perfect rack...
Just try the two ball cluster i explained
More then 80% of the time they will roll appart after you release them.
This usualy is between about 0.1mm and 2mm.
So what do you think the odds are of racking a perfect 9 or 15 ball rack? <hr></blockquote>
1 chance in 152587890625 in 9-ball.

Patrick

Patrick
06-03-2002, 06:25 PM
Again you say I am wrong when I am right, look what it says in APAPP text:

As before, to a good approximation
the frictional force is independent of the speed at which the two surfaces slide against
each other. The force is constant unless the spinning balls “lock” against each other (as
two interlocked gears), at which time the sliding frictional force vanishes.

Patrick

stickman
06-03-2002, 06:43 PM
Malcolm, It is a piece of crap! After you put the craters in the table, you don't even need the cheap plastic sardo rack. You could rack them by hand.

06-03-2002, 06:51 PM
ofcource, i think the rack is mostly to maintain the dents in the cloth...

Troy
06-03-2002, 08:40 PM
First, Racking --- The balls are considered "frozen" if NO LIGHT can be observed BETWEEN balls. With a GOOD wooden triangle, on cloth that is NOT mangled, and on a spot that does NOT have a hole in the cloth beneath or a dust build-up, it is DEFINITELY VERY POSSIBLE to achieve a TIGHT RACK WITH ALL BALLS FROZEN.

I have used a pen light occassionally to PROVE to myself and others that the BALLS ARE FROZEN, that is, NO LIGHT observed between balls.

Now, the SARDINE GIZMO --- As has been correctly stated on this and other sites, the instructions contained with the GIZMO indicate that TAPPING the Balls into place should be done AFTER using the template and water drops. This is called "TRAINING the TABLE". This "training" creates CRATERS.

Some of us, including me, have experience with the Balls simply FALLING into those CRATERS without even using the plastic GIZMO. Obviously, this is after the "training".

Additionally, I have seen breakage of the plastic with minimal normal usage even further reducing the GIZMO to trash.

Finally, many of us have observed what these CRATERS cause when a ball is "slow-rolled" through the area of those CRATERS and it is UGLY.

Troy...~~~ Can STILL rack correctly even if you tell me I can not.

06-04-2002, 05:35 AM
Ok but how do you explain that the balls always seem to roll appart slightly here.
I got a hard wooden rack, its called rolorack or something.
Besidsed the rack isnt the problem, when i hold the balls together they are perfectly frozen, but as soon as i release my fingers from the balls they always roll appart, and when i release the rack at the front the first balls roll appart a litle...
This isnt because of my racking, i have to take away the rack right?
I know if you try a few times while moving around it can get very close to perfect but never seems to be perfect here anyways...
If it is so easy like you say how come i saw them racking so long on accu stats tape ( well download ) and after he racked the opponent said to rack again because it wasnt good ...

06-04-2002, 05:39 AM
I dont understand the accu stats people talking so possitive about the sardo rack then.
Just because it is a sponsor? I wouldnt want to support something that doesnt work, no mather how much they are willing to pay...
If so, it again tells me what kind of people they are.
It is just wrong to try to get people to spend 150\$ on something that doesnt work...

06-04-2002, 05:56 AM
I got roll.a.rack from triangle billiards usa.
I tested the distance of the balls contact.
Seems on a straight in shot at high speed it is at least 2mm.
So when the balls are seperated by anything under maybe 0.3mm it might not have much influence especialy at higher speeds.

rackmup
06-04-2002, 05:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>The balls are not perfectly round, this is why you get friction.<hr></blockquote>

It would be more accurate to say the balls are not perfectly smooth. The surfaces of the balls have asperities. This is what causes friction or what is more commonly referred to as "gear effect".

BTW...my money is on Mr. Lee. He uses a cue and plays on a 4'X 9' table, not with a joystick and a 27" television screen.

Regards,

Ken

Patrick
06-04-2002, 10:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: rackmup:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;The balls are not perfectly round, this is why you get friction.&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It would be more accurate to say the balls are not perfectly smooth. The surfaces of the balls have asperities. This is what causes friction or what is more commonly referred to as "gear effect".

BTW...my money is on Mr. Lee. He uses a cue and plays on a 4'X 9' table, not with a joystick and a 27" television screen.

Regards,

Ken <hr></blockquote>

That is the same thing as I said.

You don't play Virtual pool 3 on a tv screen or a joystick, you play it on the computer with a mouse.

Patrick

06-04-2002, 12:42 PM
Mr. Lee,

How sorry I am that you beat me to this. I would put up the deed to my house and give him ten to one odds that I could rack 15 balls on a good condition table with decent cloth with them all touching. Hell, if he'll give me five minutes to do it, I'll do it without the aid of a rack, just "by hand".

06-04-2002, 02:32 PM
haha i think you all realy need to look from up close so you know.

Patrick
06-04-2002, 03:15 PM
The humans don't see a difference. Same with strokes, they say pros have perfect strokes because they don't see a difference from better strokes.

Patrick

06-07-2002, 09:08 PM
From what I understand about the rack order the 4ball has a weight deflect or 1 side of the 4ball is off. I was told this by Tommy-Davidson ,He said that u could only tell by using a micrometer ,although the balls are made of pheonolic resn a very hard plastic it is said that u have to roll the 4ball against the rack when racking the balls .enough said JASON THA TWISTER LAURIA