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02-21-2002, 01:07 AM
Recently, a few friends and I bought jump/break sticks. I bought the two-purpose stick just in case I ever make the effort to learn how to jump balls. Every time I try, though, I fail miserably. On the other hand, I tell myself that the shot is a tool like any other. Sometimes, even The Magician needs to jump a ball or two.

Naturally, it would be great to master both techniques. Still, what would be the best method to learn?

Rod
02-21-2002, 01:40 AM
Steve, as a reply, it's not very hard to jump balls.
Many times all you have to do is clear the edge of a
ball that has you blocked. Set up a shot where you are hooked by 1\8 of a ball. That ball is about 1 1\2 feet in
front of the c/b. It takes very little elevation with a
center ball hit to clear the side of that ball.
Thats a starting point and you don't need a jump cue.
Practice that a little and build a little confidence.
Most of all though, you need to practice your kick shots.

Rod

02-21-2002, 02:56 AM
A re-post:

You know how to jump the cueball (the dart-style)?
The light short stick is excellent for that. I can jump that way, useless in the traditional way.

See: http://www.bunjeejump.com/2k_changes/bunjee_instructions_2k.htm#Using%20the%20Dart%20St roke (you don't need the bunjee jumper for jumping, your shortened stick with a hard tip should do)

02-21-2002, 01:03 PM
Rod and Weelie:

I didn't think jumping was too hard. On the other hand, the pathetic results I've gotten so far are more amusing than instructive. I'd give up on it but, every so often, a need to jump a ball (rather than kick to it) appears and I quickly become aware that this is something I can't do. So, it's off to the practice table I go.

Thanks for the info

Steve

02-24-2002, 10:10 AM
The one choice you left out is 'both'. You should learn to kick and jump. Mastering all skills will lead to success in pool. The good player knows when to kick and when to jump and when either are equal options.

John Collins
www.instroke.com (http://www.instroke.com)
www.bunjeejump.com (http://www.bunjeejump.com)

02-26-2002, 09:17 PM
I haven't read any of the posts in reply to your message but... my opinion is to learn to kick first. A good friend once told me that he had to master jumping because he gets out of line too much. In all seriousness though. Kicking is more fundamentally sound than jumping. Some people never learn how to jump. It is a technique to master and a lot of pool halls prohibit this due to the possiblity of damage to the table or cloth. Very rarely is your only option to jump a ball. More often than not you can find a way to kick the object ball you are hidden from. If you do choose to master jumping be weary of the pool hall operators that are watching and maybe even ask if there is table due for re-clothing that maybe you can practice on before it is reclothed. kicking is still the number one choice.

CarolNYC
02-27-2002, 05:00 AM
Hi,
Playing billiards helps in kicking, so it is said-I do not have much of a chance to play billiards, so what I do is roll one ball out on the table and just kick at it with my cueball-all rails and see how many times out of ten I can hit it!I jump when all possibilites of kicking are blocked!
Carol~hopes that helped!

Chris Cass
02-27-2002, 06:55 AM
Hi Stephen,
The kick is what you should know first. The jump is what I do if I think I can make it and have a pocket to put it in. Sometimes I'll jump bank or if I'm 3 fingers width away from the blocking ball I'll jump if the kick isn't there.

I have a Bunjee and I'll do a dart stroke unless it's further away then just jump it. I like to jump and like my Bunjee too. I had a AirTime and it was equally as easy but I seem to do better with the Bunjee. I don't know why. I can also jump with my playing cue but would only kick if I hadn't an option.
Regards,
C.C.

02-27-2002, 10:00 AM
Chris:

Thanks for the detailed explanation of your methods and thinking. Mostly, I tend to work on kicking -- learning how to do it and perfecting the technique. Kicking gets me out of many jams and tends to demoralize some opponents, namely, weaker players like myself but players who haven't taken the time to learn the skill. The way I look at is this: The better I become using this technique the more of an advantage I have over most of my opponents.

On the other hand, there are times when jumping is the only real option available. And, I can't jump. Fortunately, many, like you, have provided advice on the how-to of this technique.

Steve

02-27-2002, 10:10 AM
Carol:

It certainly helped. I tend to overly structure my practice routines. But kicking requires one to 'see the angles' and to 'feel the force' (unfortunate pun intended) needed to hit the object ball. Thus, throwing an object ball out on to the table and whacking away until one gets it is probably the best practice one can do.

Thanks

Steve

02-27-2002, 10:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Shane_in_VB:</font><hr> I haven't read any of the posts in reply to your message but... my opinion is to learn to kick first. A good friend once told me that he had to master jumping because he gets out of line too much. <hr></blockquote>

Shane:

Yep, that's it, isn't it? If my position play were as good as required, I wouldn't have to worry very much about acquiring as many techniques as available for getting out of jams! Nor would I have to worry about annoying the hall owners and managers with my jump practice. Perhaps, the third option in my poll should have been 'work on position skills'!

Thanks

Steve

02-27-2002, 10:22 AM
John:

Your point became obvious to me after I had made my original post.

Thanks

Steve

cheesemouse
02-27-2002, 10:57 AM
StevenZ,
IMO another qualifying factor in taking the jump is does it come with shape(sorry, position)? If no, I will find a kick or queer the run in nine ball/eightball. Earlier in the poll I selected kick as the jump, in my game, normally comes second.

02-27-2002, 11:21 AM
Think of jumping a a ball in the same manner as you would if you were picking it up and bouncing it off of the slate. That is, in effect what jumping it is, shooting downward hard enough to bounce it. Hard tip helps.

02-27-2002, 11:47 AM
I agree that jumping breeds position/shape problems as a matter of course. With respect to position/shape on jump shots, even the professionals seem to trust luck more than skill. However, given the very high quality of their play, giving up table control to their opponent is usually a major mistake, even a fatal mistake. As for most of my opponents, I do not expect them to run out and they don't the majority of the time. That's why I spend more time working on position play than my jump technique.

'Queering' the run is therefore an option in most instances. I'm slowly learning not to think twice when I realize this is my best choice!

Regards

Steve

02-27-2002, 11:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Lem the Barber:</font><hr> Think of jumping a a ball in the same manner as you would if you were picking it up and bouncing it off of the slate. That is, in effect what jumping it is, shooting downward hard enough to bounce it. Hard tip helps. <hr></blockquote>

I hadn't thought of jumping like that. It makes sense, though. I do have a Talisman Water Buffalo tip (H) that I intend to use on my jump/break cue. Eventually, I'll get around to having it put on.

Thanks

Steve

heater451
02-27-2002, 11:58 AM
StephenZ,

A couple of things to keep in mind, when working on kicks:
<ul type="square"> When lining up a single-rail to kick, see if it's easier (that is, the %'s are favorable) towards using a second rail--this is more evident when having to kick at a ball near a rail/corner.
Learn some 'technical' multirail shots: 2-rail--from corner back to the same corner, 3-rail--this uses the "magic" area, about 3/4 to the second diamond on the far side of the side pocket.[/list]

There is also a 5-rail that is a little complicated to explain succinctly, but it is rarely ever needed--it's more of a 'trickshot'.

I have shot to four rails, but I don't know of any specific 4-rail shots.

The 3-rail is probably the most useful, and the easiest to use (I'm not sure I have the right spot at "B", the important thing is to figure "A" correctly):

START(
%Aq1E1%Bm7Z4%Dm3Q3%ET7L3%Fi4D3%Hn9S0%ID1S4%K[7D3%LM3P8%MV8Q0
%Nb7H2%OK3D2%Pk3V5%RP7X8%WS1D2%Xj2U7%YD1L3%ZR0C4%[P5Z4%\C2M1
%]o3F5%^Q4[2%eA7`4
)END

I have the most problem with the 2-rail, corner-to-corner:

START(
%Ao7Z7%BU5E0%CE9Q2%Em7W9%Ho9V6%MO8T0%NO3X6%Pq1T5%R P7X8%WH9D0
%Xp0T3%YC9E5%ZG6C2%[m7Z4%\C4E9%eB9`2
)END

I have tried the "parallel lines" method, but haven't practiced it enough to adjust it. I'd rather go on feel, especially since the english is a little tricky.

The 3-rail kick is a somewhat forgiving shot, and works well as a 3-rail bank. You would try to drive the object ball into the "magic" area, instead of the cueball.

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.dcr

cheesemouse
02-27-2002, 01:31 PM
heater451,
Gotta love that 'wei tool'.
On the two rail kick you have to kill the cueball on the first rail to compensate for the cueball's tendency to pick-up running enlish off the first and second rail. Boy, the posters who don't have this wei download will think we're nuts, huh?????

02-28-2002, 02:22 AM
Hi
You might try cutting your tip to about 1/8" (on your jump cue). I had trouble with my jump cue after getting a new tip, so I called Robin Dodson(I have a Frog) she suggested this and it worked for me. I used to use a metal jump rod (short) and it did'nt have a tip. I could jump anything I tried with that. Of course now they're illegal for play.
Good luck and try not to burn too many holes in the cloth.:)
Colleen

02-28-2002, 02:48 AM
Heater,
That 3 rail setup on the WEI is a good example of when I'd break out my jump cue. I finally figured out the whole jump thing, and now it's pretty easy. With the jumper, I'd pocket that 1-ball 80% of the time. I'd have a harder time pocketing it going 3-rails, although simply going for a legal shot is no biggie.
BTW, my jumper is simply a cheap 2-piece house cue that I cut down. It already had a super hard water buffalo tip.

Tim ~~ cured that fear of flying for good... it's all in the wrist for me

Chris Cass
02-28-2002, 07:26 AM
Oh Steve,
I forgot to mention how I learned how to jump. I made a jump cue out of a 14 yr old Meucci cue. I cut it 41" the size from the width of a bar box rail to rail. Cut it with a hack saw. LOL True..

I set the cb 3" off the head rail and put a full ball block at the second diamond. I set a ball in the jaws of the end rail corner so the shot was straight-in and jumped it till I made it 2 or three times in a row. Then I set the ob, one diamond up table and still straight-in till, I made it about 3 out of 5 times. This took about 1 hr and my arm was sore for 2 days. LOL I was good for about 2 weeks.

The most important thing about jumping is to jump straight. I line up the shot with my jump cue as if it was my playing cue, low and down on the cue then slowly elevate it into the position at the desired 45 degree angle. I'll stroke it till the stroke is straight with a loose grip then let it go.

Most players who miss the jump, tend not to take much time on the shot. You have to shoot the shot as if your shooting a center table cut shot, take your time. Works for me and I do think it'll work for you.
Bye Steve,
C.C.

heater451
02-28-2002, 11:17 AM
I included the link to the WEI table, just in case people didn't know what it was (hopefully, they could figure it out).

Plus, anyone who knows what it is, doesn't have to 'dig' for their link.

I wish I could see the source file for the thing though. . . .

02-28-2002, 12:33 PM
Colleen:

I had thought of altering the tip a bit before I put a new one on. However, I have not done so yet. It's also my break cue and I'm breaking better than I ever have. I'm not too keen to change it much.

Speaking of special cues, Mike Gulyassy makes a jump/break cue with a special tip, presumably one made of phenolic resin, although I do not know what the tip is made of. I've heard people rave about it, though, especially when using it to break racks, so.... I had thought of buying one, but feared that this cue or type of cue would be banned. Still, if I were fighting to finish in the money every weekend, I could easily justify the price of this cue ($350.00). You may wish to check it out.

The link: <a target="_blank" href=http://www.babysproshop.com/>http://www.babysproshop.com/</a>

Thanks

Steve

02-28-2002, 12:35 PM
Chris:

Thanks a lot!

Steve

02-28-2002, 12:38 PM
I would like to view these shots but, for whatever reason, Shockwave refuses to download and install on my machine.

If anyone else has this problem and has solved it, let me know.

Steve

02-28-2002, 10:26 PM
Position is very important. However if you are not on the table shooting position doesn't really mean anything does it? My point is that in the decision of "to jump or kick" position is a nice bonus but if you are still at the table then you have a chance to win. That is the most important thing at the professional level imo. Especially with the caliber of play these pro's posses. So to make the decision process easier you should consider if position is not an option then the easier of the 2 shots(jump/kick) is the right choice. Position practice is helpful too. Cuts down on the dreaded decision making process.

02-28-2002, 11:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Shane_in_VB:</font><hr> Position is very important. However if you are not on the table shooting position doesn't really mean anything does it? <hr></blockquote>

I thought Cheesemouse's point was a good one: If you can't run out even when you happen to execute a successful jump shot, then 'queer the run.' That is, play a safety and force your opponent to take the risks required to restart the run and win the game.

It is clear that pro players possess the skills necessary to overcome most problems. Nevertheless, even the best pros can't overcome every problem they confront. They, like their lesser skilled counterparts, may not have an opportunity to win the game while in the chair, but their good defensive play can force an opponent to loose the game while at the table. Good defense does involve sitting a bit while your opponent confronts the problems you made for him or her. These points about defensive play hold true for players at each skill level. Obviously, when the skill level of the player is high, the problems they can overcome are greater in number and difficulty. But, they are not all powerful. Thus, the usefulness of defensive play.

Winning requires control of the table when it is not wholly dependent upon luck, I would think.

Thanks

Steve

CarolNYC
03-01-2002, 05:35 AM
Way to go Steve, another way is throw out 2 balls and kick one into another-just like billiards-good luck-glad to have helped!
peace!
Carol

Fred Agnir
03-01-2002, 02:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: heater451:</font><hr> I included the link to the WEI table, ...
I wish I could see the source file for the thing though. . . . <hr></blockquote>

<a target="_blank" href=http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2_help.html>http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2_help.html</a>

Fred

03-03-2002, 01:20 AM
I thought Cheesemouse's point was a good one: If you can't run out even when you happen to execute a successful jump shot, then 'queer the run.' That is, play a safety and force your opponent to take the risks required to restart the run and win the game.

It is clear that pro players possess the skills necessary to overcome most problems. Nevertheless, even the best pros can't overcome every problem they confront. They, like their lesser skilled counterparts, may not have an opportunity to win the game while in the chair, but their good defensive play can force an opponent to loose the game while at the table. Good defense does involve sitting a bit while your opponent confronts the problems you made for him or her. These points about defensive play hold true for players at each skill level. Obviously, when the skill level of the player is high, the problems they can overcome are greater in number and difficulty. But, they are not all powerful. Thus, the usefulness of defensive play.

Winning requires control of the table when it is not wholly dependent upon luck, I would think.



I agree that defense is a must in maintaining any kind of forward progress on the scorecard. My point was not to blow off defense in a means to kick or jump and make balls to run out or stay at the table longer. I was saying that if confronted with a decision and position is not an option pick the easier shot. You can't tell me that you have the ball control or knowledge of your opponents abilities to foul up a run in a high percentage amount of times to be successful. Which means that kicking and jumping can be done with some sort of accuracy and played just like another shot. Fouling the run and giving your opponent ball in hand is the ultimate last resort. If you Tried to foul the run I am pretty sure I could figure a way to make the shot or play you back a safety. At least if you try to make a legal hit or possibly making the ball then you take that advantage of ball in hand away from your opponent. Crucial!!! I like my odds if you foul the run and give me ball in hand.


Reguards

03-03-2002, 07:12 AM
Hello again,
You're right, for a cue to be legal(including a jump cue)for BCA, NEWT or anything I've ever played in, the tip "must be composed of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material"...
I would'nt cut my break cue tip either. You're either looking at a separate jump cue or how about an extra shaft with a modified tip? I have a cue the kids used to use, a short one, cut the tip on that, it gets the job done. Might have a joint installed and use it.
Thanks for the info on Mike G.
Peace, Colleen

heater451
03-04-2002, 12:04 AM
Fred,

That's just the HTML page(s) and the .DCR file.

I'm talking about the Director *working* file (I think it's a .DIR), not the exported movie.

Thanks, though.

(I manually pulled down the HTML pages and the .DCRs a long time ago, but It's good to see that Wei doesn't mind sharing it.)