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thepoolnerd
03-19-2005, 11:11 PM
I've become a bit obsessed with running 100 balls the last few months. I took up playing 3C biliards about a year ago and I could quit pool forever if I there was one 3C table anywhere near me. The only reason that I still have a pool table in my basement is that I know if I ever got rid of my pool table for a 3C table,I'd never run 100 balls. Kind of a lifetime goal for me. I had a run of 84 two years ago and since then I've only cracked 60 three times. Should I buy a 3C table and just forget about it or keep trying to get a 100 ball run on tape?

christopheradams
03-20-2005, 12:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote thepoolnerd:</font><hr> I've become a bit obsessed with running 100 balls the last few months. I took up playing 3C biliards about a year ago and I could quit pool forever if I there was one 3C table anywhere near me. The only reason that I still have a pool table in my basement is that I know if I ever got rid of my pool table for a 3C table,I'd never run 100 balls. Kind of a lifetime goal for me. I had a run of 84 two years ago and since then I've only cracked 60 three times. Should I buy a 3C table and just forget about it or keep trying to get a 100 ball run on tape? <hr /></blockquote>

I've never had the pleasure of playing 3 cusion billiards. I watched some videos of it and know the basics of it and even played around on a pocket table with the concepts. Theres a 3 cushion table at a pool hall within an hour from me and will check it out sometime and also a snooker table within an hour and would like to play that someday too. I know I'll play horribly though, kicks and banks are the worst part of my game.
Good luck in your quest for the 100 ball run, I am on the journey of putting together a 3-pack break and run for 9 ball, got 2 and 1/2 once and 2 racks and then dry on the break one other time.
Can't you buy some kind of insert for the pockets to have the best of both worlds? It doesn't seem like it would be too tough. YOu just need to extend the rail and make it so its removable with like velcro or similar. Or is there a lot more to a 3c table than that. Like I said, I only seen it played, never played it myself.
Since your obviously a competent straight pool player, I got a straight pool question for you. Is it most common do you think to map out your entire run in straight pool? I try to get the balls open and leave insurance balls when possible and once they are all open I generally plan 3 balls ahead with trouble spots in my mind and a key ball to get to the break ball. I have limited experience with straight pool since I only play by myself since no one I know plays the game. I never just break the balls open though when I play. I "play the ghost" safety break, play safeties when needed, ect. Also, do you think pocket size has a lot to do with run #'s. I know the pros play on larger than average pockets "larger than 9 ball table pockets" when they play in straight pool tournaments. How are your tables pockets? Did you hit 84 on your home table? and your 60's on home table?

recoveryjones
03-20-2005, 12:49 AM
I've got all kinds of 9 ball, straight pool, and the odd one cushion and 8 ball videos.Recently someone sent me 10 three cushion dvds.One of them had Sam Sayinger doing trick shots(incredible masse shots) on a three cushion table.Other than Ronnie O'Sullivan running a perfect 147 point snooker run in a mere 5 minutes and change, that trick shot exibition sayinger did was one of the most thrilling, entertaining things I've ever seen done with a pool cue, balls and table.

Watching the other tapes of guys making 3 cushion caroms was pretty impressive as well.Have fun trying to hook a three cushion player (if they played 9 ball) and be prepared to get out of a lot of hooks and give your jump stick a workout.

Those 3 cushion tables are heated so I don't think by somehow blocking your pockets(as thoughtfully suggested by Chris) will suffice. Run the 100 and then buy a heated table...LOL.Take care, RJ

christopheradams
03-20-2005, 01:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> I've got all kinds of 9 ball, straight pool, and the odd one cushion and 8 ball videos.Recently someone sent me 10 three cushion dvds.One of them had Sam Sayinger doing trick shots(incredible masse shots) on a three cushion table.Other than Ronnie O'Sullivan running a perfect 147 point snooker run in a mere 5 minutes and change, that trick shot exibition sayinger did was one of the most thrilling, entertaining things I've ever seen done with a pool cue, balls and table.

Watching the other tapes of guys making 3 cushion caroms was pretty impressive as well.Have fun trying to hook a three cushion player (if they played 9 ball) and be prepared to get out of a lot of hooks and give your jump stick a workout.

Those 3 cushion tables are heated so I don't think by somehow blocking your pockets(as thoughtfully suggested by Chris) will suffice. Run the 100 and then buy a heated table...LOL.Take care, RJ <hr /></blockquote>

Hey I should be in bed now. I just got off chatting on the new az billiards chat program " which is great!" by the way. But had to post a reply here before I go to bed.

What does the heating of the table do? speed up the table? Couldn't you get simonis 760 or faster cloth? I say block the pockets /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif but since I know practically nothing about 3c billiards I will say that, knowing full well I am probably wrong.

ryushen21
03-20-2005, 10:47 AM
A couple of differences mainly between 3C and a regular pool table aside from the pocket thing. Like it was said, 3C tables are heated and they also generally use special cloth which is, i believe, Simonis 300. Unless i am mistaken, it is to help get the speed up on the table and help with the english taking when it needs to.

As to the question at hand. I just set my high run in straight at 53 the other day. It was a thrill because my previous high run was only 26 or so. Getting to 100 is undoubtedly difficult but i would keep going for it just for my own personal satisfaction.

thepoolnerd
03-20-2005, 01:32 PM
Billiard balls dont work on pool tables because they are larger and will jump when they hit the rail. Pocket inserts invariably leave a seam to where you will get untue or dead bounces. Also playing 3c on a slow 8 foot table defeats the purpose of the game. 3c tables are heated which makes the balls roll forever.

SplinterHands
03-20-2005, 05:51 PM
If I were you, I'd get a 3-cushion table. Think of the advantages...no pockets to put balls in, no more broken cues, and you'll save on energy when your not running the camcorder battery dead. Or, there's always the bowling ball option. Good luck. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
03-21-2005, 07:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote christopheradams:</font><hr>

...Is it most common do you think to map out your entire run in straight pool? I try to get the balls open and leave insurance balls when possible and once they are all open I generally plan 3 balls ahead with trouble spots in my mind and a key ball to get to the break ball...

<hr /></blockquote>

I think it is extremely rare for a player to map out his entire run. If you watch any videos of matches, these guys are changing their minds all the time. But they are also, like you said, leaving insurance balls.

Steve Lipsky
03-21-2005, 09:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> I think it is extremely rare for a player to map out his entire run. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree, Wally. I think one of the most fascinating progressions in pool belongs to 14.1. As beginners, the goal is to just try to make as many of the open balls as possible. There's no real plan; you take what you can get.

The intermediate to advanced players have a definite plan and are usually looking three balls ahead or so.

The expert players pretty much throw the carefully-architected plan out the window, as well as looking three balls ahead. I've heard sculptors say things like, "I look at a block of stone, I think of what I want to make, and I take off what doesn't belong." It's funny - I've always found that sentiment kind of pretentious. And then one day I was playing straight pool, and I was running some balls but my mind was elsewhere. I remember seeing the last 5 or 6 balls on the table, and thinking "I have no memory of how I got to this position, but I've had almost exactly the same position the last three racks." Without consciously planning my runs, I had somehow "sculpted" each full rack into similar ending positions.

These ending positions just feel "right":

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

START(
%DP2G6%EP0S4%JW6U8%KJ0P3%MW9I6%NL7J1%PQ8L9
)END

START(
%DN6F5%EI2U7%JT6S2%KL6K3%MV5M4%NF7N1%PQ8L9
)END

START(
%DL4I6%EO3V9%JL6Q2%KK6O2%MV7Q5%NN1F9%PQ8L9
)END



Then you look at similar layouts, but can immediately tell they're not nearly as good:

START(
%DH4J4%EO3Y7%JH6R7%KL3N8%MX1J4%NN0I9%PQ8L9
)END

As a strong player runs a rack, he's not going to leave a situation like that 10-11-4 triangle. The 11 has no pocket until either the 10 or 4 are moved. Mathematically, the available patterns have been drastically reduced.

If you watch a player like Danny Barouty, who when in gear runs a rack in about 2 minutes... he is not consciously thinking to avoid the situation I just described. He just naturally takes the balls off to make the resulting end-rack position one of the "good" familiar ones, without even thinking about it.

Once he gets the familiar end-rack, he knows there will always be a pattern to get on a good break ball. So some degree of thought is usually warranted at the beginning and end of each rack, but with the balls open, the middle-rack should almost play itself. If that makes any sense.

- Steve

Deeman2
03-21-2005, 10:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> I've heard sculptors say things like, "I look at a block of stone, I think of what I want to make, and I take off what doesn't belong." <hr /></blockquote>

Steve, This is the best description of the architecture of a long run that I have ever heard. I never thought of it like that but now always will....

Deeman

BigRigTom
03-21-2005, 04:27 PM
A 100 ball run sounds like a GREAT goal! I have never played serious straight pool and was wondering if one of you has a link to some basics to get me started?

DickLeonard
03-22-2005, 07:47 AM
Steve when playing with Joe Canton it soon became evident that he had a 5 or 6 ball pattern that he would end up 40% of the time. I will learn the wei table one of these days but for now it was a spot ball and a break shot on both sides of the table and one or two sidepocket balls. Depending on which break ball he landed on to shoot the spot shot then the side shots that was how he played the layout.

The one thing the old players had going for them was they had the opportunity to see Straight Rail and Balkline Billiards being played. They had learned to control the outcome of collisions by the English they used shooting the shot. He would hit into balls after pocketing a ball and instead of the ball ending on the rail it would take the applied English and it became a bunny in the side.

He would always play for an out shot even if he had to draw to the other end of the table. Most of the time all the shots were played in the rack area. ####

Deeman2
03-22-2005, 08:09 AM
Dick,

Do you think breaks using a side pocket are less common now? I rememebr many players using the side pocket much more for a break shot back in the day, myself included. It seems they are almost never used now unless someone makes a big position error. It may be a lost art. Also, it does seem that players now are not as concerned about the detail of exactly where to hit the rack and how hard. I remember much better separations in the past and players actually moving the key balls and break balls around more skillfully. Is this just my poor memory of were they better at managing this in the past? I think I see much more blasting now, depending on a lucky roll.

Deeman

SpiderMan
03-22-2005, 09:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> Dick,

Do you think breaks using a side pocket are less common now? I rememebr many players using the side pocket much more for a break shot back in the day, myself included. It seems they are almost never used now unless someone makes a big position error. It may be a lost art. Also, it does seem that players now are not as concerned about the detail of exactly where to hit the rack and how hard. I remember much better separations in the past and players actually moving the key balls and break balls around more skillfully. Is this just my poor memory of were they better at managing this in the past? I think I see much more blasting now, depending on a lucky roll.

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

Dee,

I haven't played much straight pool, but having the break ball go in the side seems like a disadvantage. If I have anything like the "textbook" break shot, I can usually study closely enough to determine exactly where on the "target" ball in the rack my cueball will strike. Then I can decide whether I need to draw out or run to the rail.

Using a side-pocket break, I'm more likely to get stuck on the rack or wind up somewhere bad, because the distance makes it harder to figure exactly where I'll strike the embedded target ball.

SpiderMan

Deeman2
03-22-2005, 09:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
I haven't played much straight pool, but having the break ball go in the side seems like a disadvantage. If I have anything like the "textbook" break shot, I can usually study closely enough to determine exactly where on the "target" ball in the rack my cueball will strike. Then I can decide whether I need to draw out or run to the rail. <font color="blue"> Yes, Good point. </font color>

Using a side-pocket break, I'm more likely to get stuck on the rack or wind up somewhere bad, because the distance makes it harder to figure exactly where I'll strike the embedded target ball. <font color="blue"> While it is more difficult to determine exactly where the ball will strike, I find exactly the opposite in the risk of getting stuck in the rack. One of the major problems has always been that you strike the side of the rack fairly flat on the standard corner break. The salvation of the side pocket break seemed to be that you strike the rack at a glance and, therefore, are at much less risk of getting stuck in the rack. I have not played serious straight pool since Germany (10 years ago) but even there was surprised at the few side pocket breaks.

I was just curious if the game had evolved, my memory wa dim (a possibility) or that players use less options now. As less is played, the latter could be the case but I know Mr. Leonard will have a good feel for this. As well, below the rack breaks can be quite good too, but good skill mcut be used to get the cue ball back out in the open if no insurance ball is available. </font color>

Deeman
<hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
03-22-2005, 10:28 AM
In Babe Cranfield's book "The Straight Pool Bible" he seems to be an advocate of side pocket break shots when necessary.

I have used them. The nice thing is you can whack em pretty hard and still make the shot since the pocket is so big.

DickLeonard
03-22-2005, 01:21 PM
Deeman I am sorry the sidepocket shots were the key ball before the break ball. Sidepocket break shots are when the ball is almost in the pocket and you end up table so the cueball flys into the rack then draws to the siderail and out. This can also be accomplished by landing in the rack on the key ball, then getting ball in hand behind the line.

The other sidepocket breakshot where you hit the long rail short rail takes practice to hit the end ball of the rack. Then the cueball goes into the long rail then out to play a ball knocked out of the front of the rack. Hitting that shot hard, the cueball hits in the middle of the rack and gets stuck.####

141and3c
03-26-2005, 06:28 PM
You &amp; I are very similar in ability and vision. I haven't got to 100 yet either. 2 years ago I took up 3C seriously and wished I started years ago. 3C gives me greater satisfaction because it's so difficult, but doesn't seem to require the stamina that top level pool does. The possibilities available on each turn are so many, it makes me wonder if I'll ever see all of them. Also, 3C players are gentlemen, not Axx Holes like many pool players.

You MUST get the accustats 2003 vegas world cup finals dvd 3c03-10. Even pool players will learn from it. Blomdhal describes what the players are going to play and why on each shot. He tells Bob Burns why his ideas are slighly wrong on several shots.

I have a 9 ft Diamond prof table and am going to have billiard rails made so I can play 3C at home. You might be able to do the same and keep your pool table, to switch back and forth. Put on very fast cloth.

theinel
03-28-2005, 06:17 AM
You should buy a bigger house that can hold a pool table, a 3c table and a 6x12 snooker table.

A hundred ball 14.1 run is an admirable goal but even after you make it the record of 526 still leaves you lots of room to improve.

Watching Blomdahl make six and seven plus rail kicks, right and left handed, never fails to amaze me.

The number of pro snooker players that produce 147s is mind boggling to me but as the money they earn dwarfs the money the American pool geniuses make it is understandable that they keep at it.

I'm not trying to favor any of the discipines, rather to support them all, but after spending some time on a 6x12 with proper cloth and pockets the 147 (accomplishable in less than 5 minutes) seems to be the most tantalizingly yet impossibile for me. My mind rebels at the dream and time required of the 25+ 3c runs and 400+ straigt pool runs. I guess talent is as talent does epecially when combined with massive amounts of determination. Ever hear of the Lindrums from Austrailia? The younger ones records in english billiards may be the most impressive of all.

One
03-28-2005, 06:46 AM
You can do both, get a 3 Cushion table and try for 100 run on it.

3 Cushion is easier than pool after you reach a certain level as explained in this article (http://poollogics.port5.com/articles/one/3cushion.vs.pool.htm).
It just depends on what skill level you are in and how good you want to become.

One
03-28-2005, 06:49 AM
You get too easily impressed by numbers. Seems like you don't understand what pool is all about. I rather make 1 perfect shot than run 10000 bad shots.

BigRigTom
03-28-2005, 10:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote One:</font><hr> You get too easily impressed by numbers. Seems like you don't understand what pool is all about. I rather make 1 perfect shot than run 10000 bad shots. <hr /></blockquote>

As "ONE" I suppose numbers have no real meaning but as pool players numbers mean a LOT! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

thepoolnerd
03-28-2005, 08:30 PM
I read your article and you wrote:

"You don't even need good speed control (or skill) to run unlimited in 3 Cushion"
What do you consider unlimited? 5? There are many world 3C champs that would love to see someone without skill or speed control run unlimited balls in 3C. Guess what: it's never been done. 32 is the most I've heard. 25 in competition. Hardly unlimited
Also, when trying to prove your point by referring to written articles pick an author other than yourself. Much more convincing that way. Both games are difficult, but I'm not foolish enough to say that you don't need skill or speed control to run "unlimited balls" in any cue game, unlike yourself. "The player with the highest understanding of physics will be the better player?" Higher level physics??? A college prep physics course will teach you all you need to know about pool or 3c. No disrespect to them, but I can't see Efren cracking the atom, Archer commenting on the intriguing but inconclusive experimental results of cold fusion or Steven Hawking miraculously standing up and running 20 racks of 9 ball. Your article was uninformed and laughable.

One
03-28-2005, 09:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote thepoolnerd:</font><hr> What do you consider unlimited? 5? There are many world 3C champs that would love to see someone without skill or speed control run unlimited balls in 3C. Guess what: it's never been done. 32 is the most I've heard. 25 in competition. Hardly unlimited <hr /></blockquote>
Why don't you forget about the pros for a while, you seem obcessed with them, I bet you are a fan, if that is the case, you wouldn't understand what I am talking about.

theinel
03-29-2005, 03:43 AM
I'm not one for censorship or the denial of free speech but "One" is either off his/her rocker or he/she is a troll in the Usenet sense and is just looking for amuesment at others expense. It would be nice if the board had a customizable plonk filter for each user.

SplinterHands
03-29-2005, 05:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote thepoolnerd:</font><hr> No disrespect to them, but I can't see Efren cracking the atom, Archer commenting on the intriguing but inconclusive experimental results of cold fusion or Steven Hawking miraculously standing up and running 20 racks of 9 ball. Your article was uninformed and laughable. <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Steve Lipsky
03-29-2005, 08:34 AM
theinel and thepoolnerd,

"One" is a good kid from this board who is most definitely a bit off his rocker. But he's harmless and has a unique point of view, to say the least. I think he thinks he's a space alien, if that helps. Whether or not this is true, english is not his first language, so he may come off more abrasive in some of his posts than he means to be.

Do a search on a past user named "Patrick" and you'll see from his other posts that it's only about 50-50 whether he takes himself seriously or not.

- Steve

BigRigTom
03-29-2005, 09:01 AM
Steve, are you saying that "One" used to be "Patrick"?
If that is true he should now be "Two" shouldn't he?

Either way, his views are truly unique and thank goodness that is "True". /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

SpiderMan
03-29-2005, 09:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr> I'm not one for censorship or the denial of free speech but "One" is either off his/her rocker or he/she is a troll in the Usenet sense and is just looking for amuesment at others expense. It would be nice if the board had a customizable plonk filter for each user. <hr /></blockquote>

He used to post as "Patrick". While he's got a few crackpot notions and made his share of mistakes, some of his ideas are fundamentally sound and logically-derived from out-of-the-box thinking.

For example, I thought Patrick's idea of a pool-playing "suit" which limited body motion (similar to the stiff shooting jackets used by riflemen) was a reasonably-practical idea. Sort of like a permanently-worn "stroke trainer", but which also supported most of the body weight and removed motion variables. Unfortunately, I don't believe he ever pursued that idea to completion. I think Patrick mostly plays pool in his mind and on the internet (virtual pool). Possibly he has ADD.

SpiderMan