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SnakebyteXX
03-22-2005, 07:31 AM
Washington -- The extraordinary intervention of Congress and the president into the Terri Schiavo case Monday served as an inkblot test for a nation conflicted over the ethics of death and the role of religion and morality in policy-making.

Across America, conservative talk radio hosts and other supporters saw turning the brain-damaged woman's fate over to the federal courts as a righteous stand against the Florida court system, Schiavo's husband and her doctors, and a culture that puts too small a premium on human life.

Critics interpreted the all-night session as a crass political gesture, an abandonment of long-held principles on states' rights, and a craven effort to use one family's agony for political advantage.

In a nation already divided along party lines over matters of war, taxes and even the origins of human life, people saw either their fears or their hopes confirmed by a congressional action that surprised even longtime capital observers.

"We are witnessing a fundamental sea change in American politics,'' said Allan Lichtman, a professor of political history at American University in Washington.

"The divide used to be primarily economics -- between the haves and the have-nots. That's changed now,'' Lichtman said. "The divide in America today is religious and racial.''

The depth of that divide was evident through the early morning hours on the House floor, where elected officials spoke passionately about the sanctity of life and the dignity of death, and talked of dying loved ones and of holding babies in their arms. It was a remarkable showing from a body that has previously held almost no hearings on the topic, and that had just embarked on a two-week recess.

President Bush interrupted a vacation in Crawford, Texas, to fly back to the White House -- the first time in his presidency he has returned to Washington mid-vacation -- so he could sign the legislation as soon as it was passed.

"This is a complex case with serious issues, but in extraordinary circumstances like this, it is wise to always err on the side of life,'' Bush said later in the day.

Some analysts said the political motives were particularly transparent for Republicans who -- until Monday -- had traditionally championed states' rights.

"They are totally trampling on the state's authority in a way the Republicans historically have been opposed to,'' said Melanie Leslie, a professor of family law at Cardozo School of Law at Yeshiva University in New York. "During the Civil Rights era, that was their whole diatribe. They've gotten awfully creative to come up with this.''

Republicans said their fealty to states' rights was trumped by their devotion to preserving Schiavo's life.

In a capital typically consumed by complex matters that affect hundreds of millions of constituents, there was a "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington'' aspect to a congressional debate involving a brain-damaged woman and her husband's right to disconnect her feeding tube.

"The legal and political issues may be complicated, but the moral ones are not,'' said House Republican leader Tom DeLay of Texas as the clock passed midnight. "A young woman in Florida is being dehydrated and starved to death. For 58 long hours, her mouth has been parched and her hunger pangs have been throbbing. If we do not act, she will die of thirst.''

Opponents, far fewer of whom ventured back to Washington for the all- night affair, displayed a similar intensity as they castigated those who sought to bring federal action into the Schiavo family's affairs.

"We are playing with a young woman's life for the sake of politics,'' said Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga.

Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., said "The caption tonight ought to be: We're not doctors, we just play them on C-SPAN.''

"The base of the Republican party is not necessarily the 'haves' anymore -- it's the white evangelicals, white devout Catholics, white churchgoers,'' Lichtman said. "The base of the Democratic party is not necessary the 'nots.' It's African Americans, Jewish Americans, those without any religious affiliations.''

No members of the Bay Area congressional delegation were present for the vote. House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi issued a statement from the Middle East, where she is traveling, saying: "Congressional leaders have no business substituting their judgment for that of multiple state courts that have extensively considered the issues in this intensely personal family matter.

"The actions of the majority in attempting to pass constitutionally dubious legislation are highly irregular and an improper use of legislative authority,'' Pelosi said.

It is rare, though not unheard of, for Congress to intervene in individual cases, though most of the personal bills involve immigration and naturalization matters. Many observers were quick to point out the political motives for Republicans in delving into the issue, but few were willing to predict the political consequences.

Polls conducted over the past 48 hours show that a majority of Americans believe that Congress and the president are overstepping their bounds by getting involved in a matter that had already been reviewed by 19 judges in Florida.

In a poll released by ABC News Monday, 70 percent said it is inappropriate for Congress to get involved, and two-thirds of the respondents said they believe elected officials trying to keep Schiavo alive are doing so more for political advantage than out of concern for her.

A divide is evident among Democrats and Republicans, though it is much stronger among those people who identify themselves as evangelicals. Recent polls have also shown divides on matters such as evolution. An NBC News poll conducted in February asked adults what is the more likely explanation for the origin of human life. Less than 1 in 5 Republicans chose "evolution,'' as compared with 43 percent of Democrats.

"Our politics revolve around a new cultural polarization. We see that reflected in the Schiavo case,'' Lichtman said.

While there may be a backlash if voters believe Congress is overreaching, many analysts believe the religiously conservative minority that supports the legislation is far more passionate on the issue.

"It's a way to throw them a bone without any real consequences,'' said Leslie.

"I don't think Congress is going to get out of this without some damage, '' said Jack Pitney, a professor of political science at Claremont McKenna College outside Los Angeles.

"If they didn't act, supporters of this action would have accused members of letting (Schiavo) die. As it is, a lot of people think Congress has intervened improperly. One characteristic of these issues is there is no way to make everyone happy.''

Another possible outcome is a torrent of requests for legislation by constituents who hope Congress will intervene on their behalf as they did in the Schiavo case.

"They've really opened the floodgates for these deeply personal decisions, '' Lichtman said. "Once you politicize these issues ... and put them in the venue of Congress, you open the door to other people unhappy with results in other venues.''


link (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/03/22/MNGDGBSVVS1.DTL)

Wally_in_Cincy
03-22-2005, 08:15 AM
I just posted this on another forum...

Since I am a right-winger I often agree with most of the conservative talk hosts, but in the Terri Schiavo case I am quite frankly embarassed by them.

Let the poor woman die with whatever shred of dignity she has left. People are allowed to die like this thousands of times a year. The only reason this is news is because the parents managed to get 5 seconds of footage that appeared to show her responding to stimulus.

Oh well, my 2 cents.

I submit this question to the forum. Would you want to live like that?

Deeman2
03-22-2005, 08:19 AM
I think this is a great tragedy but probably happens much more than we are aware. I wish we would stop making a circus out of this. As a Republican, I am ashamed of how we have made this a morals case and how after her husband spent all the settlement for years trying expensive experimental therapy, we vilify him for wanting his wife's suffering to end. I can't blame her parents for wanting to keep her alive but sometimes you just gotta let go. Certainly there is a more humane way than to let her starve to death. I pray for them and hope it ends soon for them all.

I don't think this should ever have become a partisan issue. It is just a very sad thing for a family and a young woman who was unfortunate and a husband who did all he could, even after the doctors all told him it was useless.

There but by the grace of God, go I...


Deeman

Wally_in_Cincy
03-22-2005, 09:25 AM
Geez I'm going nuts listening to the good Christains calling talk radio spreading falsehoods about this case that they have read on the internet. Stupid, gullible, well-intentioned but misguided fools.

Use your brains and logic people, not your emotions.

cheesemouse
03-22-2005, 09:34 AM
Wally,

I can't remember ever having been more pissed off with the actions of our politicians. Taking advantage of this tragic case for political gain is nothing short of shameful. I don't care which side of the fence you fall on...It really doesn't give one much hope that we are being lead by people with a brain in their heads...no pun intented... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

SecaucusFats
03-22-2005, 10:38 AM
Deeman, I agree with you, and Wally. This should never have been allowed to turn into such a disgraceful situation.

Terry Schiavo was given therapy for 6 years to see if she could regain any higher brain function, she never did recover.The case was reviewed 19 times by FL courts during which testimony was given by competent medical experts. The neurologists were all in agreement--Ms. Schiavo would never recover. It was just reviewed by a federal judge who ordered that the feeding tube not be reconnected.

She is being given morphine to prevent any pain or discomfort as nature takes its course and death approaches.

Republicans should be ashamed for kowtowing to the religious extreme and getting the federal government involved in what should always have been a matter for the state courts to decide.

Terry's husband has been vilified and portrayed as some diabolical fiend for ensuring that his wife's wishes were complied with. Terry's parents are consumed with love for their child and certainly I can understand their feelings, but there comes a time when one has to be willing to let go, no matter how much it hurts. My heart goes out to both her husband and to Terry's parents and siblings.

The biggest lesson to be learned from all this is just how important it is to have a living will in order to make sure one's wishes are followed. If only to prevent hurt feelings, family squabbles, and legal problems in these types of situations.

hondo
03-22-2005, 11:35 AM
Wally, Dee, SF, I'm proud of you guys for your stand
on this issue.

Deeman2
03-22-2005, 11:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Wally, Dee, SF, I'm proud of you guys for your stand
on this issue. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Hondo,

Thanks, we can all agree on some things! The most valuable thing I came out of this is that SF is dead on. I'm going to get a living will now. I won't put my wife through this horror. </font color>

Deeman

Wally_in_Cincy
03-22-2005, 12:02 PM
<font color="blue">This is a late response. I got cut off earlier. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> Wally,

I can't remember ever having been more pissed off with the actions of our politicians. Taking advantage of this tragic case for political gain is nothing short of shameful. I don't care which side of the fence you fall on...It really doesn't give one much hope that we are being lead by people with a brain in their heads...no pun intented... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>

cheesemouse I agree 100%. I thought the baseball-steroid hearings were a comical but basically harmless farce in a 3 Stooges/Keystone Cops tradition, but this grandstanding balderdash and falderol involves a tragic, gut-wrenching, private family matter they have no business sticking their Pinocchio-ish noses into.

I just get sick when I keep seeing that clip of that poor woman. I'm sure someday she will thank her parents for plastering her tragic private moments all over the world for all to see. Yeah. I'm sure that's what she would have wanted.

dg-in-centralpa
03-22-2005, 02:51 PM
My grandmother was faced with this decision several years ago. Her second husband fell a couple years before and broke his neck. He had no feeling from the neck down. He was confined to a wheelchair and couldn't move anywhere. He wished for death. As he was in the hospital for one of his many infections he was getting, he started going downhill. My grandmother and my mother had the chance to try to make him live longer, but they both decided he suffered anough and let him die. Hard? Damn right. It's what he wanted for years because his quality of life was pathetic. If this would ever happen to me, I would hope that my wife would let me die. I know my parents would do it for me. I feel for the parents, but she's never coming back. Why not remember her as a healthy vibrant person, rather than a body unable to respond to anything.

DG - sad day to be a republican

Wally_in_Cincy
03-22-2005, 03:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dg-in-centralpa:</font><hr> ...sad day to be a republican <hr /></blockquote>

got that right

Apparently "FOX News fair and balanced" had some nurse on this morning who tended Schiavo in 1995 and was saying that she was eating Jell-O and pudding and talking in single words and then she said she caught the husband trying to kill Schiavo with insulin.

Sorry I don't buy it.

Limbaugh was playing the clips on his show today. Now I remember why I don't listen to him

Barbara
03-22-2005, 07:36 PM
Wally,

This is what is crucial to this situation. The husband wouldn't divorce her and essentially turn over her life to her parents who are hoping for some kind of therapy to bring her out of this coma to implicate her husband to be accountable for her present physical state.

Insulin injected into one's scalp is deadly and very hard to prove in an autopsy.

Barbara

Gayle in MD
03-23-2005, 07:45 AM
Ditto!

Whatever happens, I hope the truth will be revealed regarding the rumors. I have heard everything from...

Husband turned down the million dollar offer to step out and give parents legal rights, but will stand to gain more money if she dies...

Husband was caught giving deadly insulin infections by a nurse, who immediately called the police and reported it, and was then fired by the facility.

Husband has not allowed any therapy.


Therapy could improve her condition, therapy could never improve her condition.

She is brain dead, she isn't brain dead.

One would think that Doctors could agree on this case, one way or the other.

I feel so bad for her, and, brace yourselves, I agree with Wally, she would probably be so humiliated by all these news clips, and the invasion of her dignity.

Tragic situation any way you look at it.

Gayle in Md.

Troy
03-23-2005, 07:56 AM
The most difficult decision I have ever had to make was when my 14 year old daughter was in a bicycle accident and landed on her head. This happened in 1984. She was in the hospital on a vent for a week when the doctors told us she was terminal.

We finally made the decision to pull the vent and donate organs. One life lost, but many lives saved.

Don't bother asking me what I think about the Schiavo case.
The above scenario should tell you.

Troy

Barbara
03-23-2005, 08:08 AM
Wow Troy,

I cannot imagine how difficult that must have been for you. But like you said, your decision saved lives.

I'm sorry for your loss.

Barbara

Deeman2
03-23-2005, 09:10 AM
It's very strange that most of us with completely different political/life views seem to have a lot of agreement here. It sort of makes you wonder how so many are apparently feeling the opposite way on this.

I think people like Troy, who have had to make such a tough decision are the only ones who really know what it is like. All we can do is pray that this is over as quickly as possible for the family. As I stated in my ealrier post, I wonder how many untold families are facing this without the glare of publicity and how hard these decisions must be when you really have to make them yourself. I'm sure it takes more strength to let them go than to hang on to hope that will never be rewarded.

God bless them all.

eg8r
03-23-2005, 10:25 AM
Deeman, I don't really find this strange at all. This is not a political issue and I am ashamed it has become one. I believe the only reason Congress ever decided to do anything about this is because of the national recognition this story was gaining. They see it as a chance to win more constituents.

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy
03-23-2005, 10:44 AM
This is an exchange I had on another forum

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sleuth :</font><hr>


Wally - being a right-winger, maybe you'd like to explain why Bush signed the recent legislation (at 1 a.m., no less) aimed at keeping Terry Schiavo alive, but as governor of Texas signed a law that allowed hospitals and medical professionals to make the decision to pull the plug in similar cases?

Pure hypocrisy and political pandering, in my opinion...
<hr /></blockquote>


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally-Cincinnati :</font><hr>


Absolutely. He's pandering to the religious Right in this high-profile case even though he probly does not believe it is the right thing to do.

I didn't know about the Texas thing. I thought you were going to bring up the state of capital punishment in the Lone Star State ;D

You will never hear me say Bush is perfect. Far from it. He spends too much. He signed the Campaign Finance Reform thereby stifling the 1st Amendment just because he assumed the Supreme Court would overturn it. Surprise !!

He's done a lot of things I don't agree with.
<hr /></blockquote>

SecaucusFats
03-23-2005, 12:59 PM
I ran across this article today. The writer doesn't pull any punches, and some may find it offensive, but I believe she is dead on right in her assesment of the situation. :

Dance, Meat Puppet
The Misanthropic B*tch ^ | March 20, 2005 | The Misanthropic B*tch

When Terri Schiavo's life effectively ended 15 years ago, her career as a political and personal football began.

The facts of this case are obscured each time Terri Schiavo's family and political crusaders hint at Michael Schiavo's possible involvement in his wife's current state or his possible financial motives for wanting to see her life ended.

Let's ignore that Bob and Mary Schindler moved in with Michael Schiavo. Let's ignore that Bob Schindler encouraged his son-in-law to date, saying in testimony in 1993, "I think I said he deserved to start a new life." Let's ignore that Michael Schiavo did seek treatment for his wife, and let's ignore that the Schindlers returned their daughter to a rehabilitation facility after only three weeks because they couldn't deal with her overwhelming needs.

Let's ignore that not long after Terri Schiavo lapsed into a living purgatory, Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers sued the doctors who treated her. At the malpractice trial in 1992, Mary Schindler said of her son-in-law, "He is loving, caring. I don't know of any young boy that would be as attentive. ... He's just been unbelievable. And I know without him there is no way I could have survived all this."

And while we're busy ignoring those aspects of the case, let's continue to bury our heads by pretending Pinellas-Pasco Judge George Greer never concluded in a 2000 ruling ordering Mrs. Schiavo's feeding tube removed that the argument was about money.

"It is clear to this court that (the argument) was predicated upon money and the fact that Mr. Schiavo was unwilling to equally divide his ... award with Mr. and Mrs. Schindler," Greer wrote.

Michael Schiavo might be a jerk. He might kick kittens and flip off little old ladies driving Buicks. He might wear white after Labor Day and drink cappuccino with his steak dinner.

He might even give thanks nightly for the heart attack that allowed him to live like a single man -- such are the high-flying, single-life good times of someone with a live-in girlfriend, two children and a mortgage.

But what he isn't, is responsible for whether his wife lives or dies. He handed over that decision to the court system years ago, and his in-laws' beef is with a judicial process that has repeatedly declared their daughter to be in a persistent vegetative state.

This is Florida we're talking about, not some blue state reveling in the wholesale slaughter of fetuses and the severely brain damaged. This is a state with "Choose Life" license plates -- a state that plays host to the Holy land Experience without a hint of hipster irony.

If Terri Schiavo can't live there, she can't live anywhere.

Much is made of the supposed goldmine Terri Schiavo's bed-sore-covered ass spasms upon, but after 15 years of care -- quality or not -- and a prolonged legal battle that goldmine has become little more than a windfall the size of her cerebral cortex.

Michael Schiavo is not going to drive away from the hospice in a tricked-out Hummer to his sprawling beachfront mansion, where he and his family will pack their Louis Vuitton bags for a jaunt aboard their private jet to a month-long stay at their Grenada villa.

Save for 20-somethings who want to spend the next decade appearing on MTV's "The Gauntlet" and "The Inferno," very few people open up their lives for that many years of public scrutiny for such a paltry amount of money.

While Terri Schiavo's family thinks little of bad-mouthing Michael Schiavo in the press -- alluding to an unhappy, abusive marriage that might or might not have ended in attempted strangulation -- few have questioned their relationship with Terri Schiavo.

According to court documents, Terri Schiavo's family would keep her alive if she became diabetic and needed a quadruple amputation. They don't sound like particularly loving, sane people. Loving, sane people don't want their family members to live out their days as a torso with a dead-brain container attached to it.

When Terri Schiavo's parents look at her, do they see their daughter -- the mobile, sentient being she once was -- or do they see a barely living, breathing "screw you" to the son-in-law they don't appear to have much love for after he didn't split the malpractice settlement with them?

When Tom DeLay -- that paragon of ethics from a state that allows PVS patients to have their life support switched off if they're too poor, unphotogenic and politically unconnected -- looks at Terri Schiavo, does he see a middle finger in the face of Democrats who can't win in an emotionally charged case? Does he see money from the dedicated party fringe pouring in?

Because when I look at Terri Schiavo, I see a woman whose gasping existence has been stolen for personal and political gain, to further personal and political agendas, and to settle personal and political vendettas.

I see a woman who likely led a mediocre, uneventful -- save for being turned into a martyr -- life.

I see a woman who, had she not regularly vomited to the point of causing serious medical issues, would have died in her 70s with the highlight of her obituary being that "she had a really great sense of humor."

She is not a martyr. She was not destined for great things. She is not a symbol of the Death Is Too Scary to Ponder movement. She is not going to ascend to heaven in a beam of white light sent directly from God when he determines it's "her" time.

But what she could do is set a precedent for Congress and the president turning our personal lives -- against our wishes -- into a cynical ploy to pander to an influential voting bloc.

While my machine-assisted body can be used as decoration for a middle-aged German artist always on the hunt for the latest fad or as a human tic-tac-toe board at a carnival, I wouldn't look good as a political volleyball.

END

SnakebyteXX
03-23-2005, 01:06 PM
I must admit to being biased in this case due to my own life experience.

Several years ago, my beautiful 48 year old sister and the mother of five children had a heart attack. Blood flow was cut off from her brain for nearly twenty minutes before paramedics arrived. They managed to get her heart going again but by then it was too late her brain was dead.

We rallied around her bedside in intensive care while doctors administered every test known to medical science to determine if she had any higher brain function - she did not.

During this awful time of hope and hopelessness her husband kept vacillating between acceptance and denial. He would listen carefully as the negative test results were discussed and appear to resign himself to the inevitable conclusion that she wasn't coming back. Then he would 'see some sign of recognition' in her eyes - or feel that she had squeezed his hand in a meaningful way. This was followed by his gathering his children around him and telling them that in spite of everything that had happened - 'Mom is going to be okay...'

This process went on for three or four days - him being told that there was no chance of her recovery followed by his overwhelming need to believe that there was - followed by his 'seeing signs' followed by giving his children false hope.

They were a very religious family so we also had high ranking members from the church gathering around her bedside and praying for a miracle. They also gathered in his home with the children and prayed for a miracle with them. There would be no miracle.

The church folks were a huge help during this time bringing food, offering emotional support and shuttling the children back and forth to their normal activities.

By the forth day we knew that the doctors were right - there would be no recovery. They carefully explained to us that she could be kept alive by medical means - but that the sister, and daughter and wife and mother that we all knew and loved as Patricia wasn't ever coming back again.

Then, as a family we came together and as a family we decided that she had no chance for any kind of quality of life and that to keep her alive just to keep her alive would be cruel to her and everyone around her. In the end we chose to let her die.

The problem with that part of the process was how long it took and how horrible it was to watch. Current medical laws in this country do not allow for any intervention to bring life to a quick and painless end. Human beings are given less consideration than family pets when it comes to such matters. When the time comes that there is no more hope there isn't anyone there to step up to the plate - if you decide to take a loved one off of life support the only legal way that they are allowed to die is by starvation and dehydration. Let me tell you from personal experience there are few things in this world more painful than watching someone you love die slowly minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day from lack of water and food. From the time she was removed from life support it took my beloved sister two weeks to die. Those were two of the longest weeks of my life.

It was then and remains to this day the most painful ordeal that I have ever experienced. For my parents it was gut wrenching and horrifying. I am both saddened and sickened when I read a quote like the one from Tom DeLay above: ""The legal and political issues may be complicated, but the moral ones are not,'' said House Republican leader Tom DeLay of Texas as the clock passed midnight. "A young woman in Florida is being dehydrated and starved to death. For 58 long hours, her mouth has been parched and her hunger pangs have been throbbing. If we do not act, she will die of thirst.'' because I know that the only reason that this is true is because we do not have a legally approved humane means to end life. Many of the very politicians who are screaming the loudest about the horribly painful way that Schiavo is dying are the same ones who have staunchly resisted passing laws that would allow medical professionals the option to painlessly end human life when the situation calls for it. This, in my opinion, is truly barbaric, immoral and ultimately utterly inhumane.

My two cents and worth what you paid for it.

Snake

Ps. Following her death, my wife and I adopted my sister's then eleven year old son and have raised him as our own. He is now twenty-two and will be graduating with a degree in economics from UC Davis this Spring. Good kid - love him to bits.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-23-2005, 01:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
When Tom DeLay -- ...-- looks at Terri Schiavo, does he see a middle finger in the face of Democrats who can't win in an emotionally charged case? Does he see money from the dedicated party fringe pouring in?
<hr /></blockquote>

I believe this to be true.

thanks for the article o rotund one.

JPB
03-23-2005, 01:41 PM
Not commenting on the specifics of the Schiavo case because that is getting kicked around enough. But the article dealing with the split in America brings up some interesting points. I think the fundamental problem that appears as a left/right split is the probelm that the sides choose to abandon rationality on some issues. The left has use for science and rationality when it comes to certain things, but not economics. The right can be slightly more rational than the left on economics, but favors mysticism over rationality in the "cultural" or "moral" sphere. Neither side really wants policy decided on objective, rational principles. So they compromise on some things and get into impossible debates on other things. Impossible because one side will be irrational - either the right because of mystical belief or the left because of collectivist or post modernist anti rational goo. In the mean time, innocent victims pay the price. People have all their money stolen because of socialist thinking, people spend years in prison because of misguided morality from extremists, etc...

I am saying this as a disgruntled republican. I just can't be a democrat because I am a believer in capitalism and economic freedom. But I am also in favor of individual liberties. I suppose I am really a libertarian, or at least am closes to them on many issues, but because of the lack of a viable alternative tend to align more with republicans.

In the end though, the battle is rationality vs. irrationality. Reason vs. mysticism. Whether it is domestic policy regarding stem cell research or stealing money to pay for immoral social programs, or foreign policy deciding how to deal w/ irrational thugs like Al Qaeda, the future of our country depends on looking at things rationally. But that is as it has always been because the survival of the human race has always depended on the degree to which people could use their minds to survive. And neither the right or left in the current debate appear able to put their minds to very good use.

Troy
03-23-2005, 05:33 PM
Let them all GO TO HELL !!!!!

Until it hits them right between the eyes, they will never understand what a family goes through.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Deeman, I don't really find this strange at all. This is not a political issue and I am ashamed it has become one. I believe the only reason Congress ever decided to do anything about this is because of the national recognition this story was gaining. They see it as a chance to win more constituents.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn
03-24-2005, 12:48 PM
The real problem is with the familles inability to face reality. There is a term for it I don't recall but it's people clinging to something beyond reason. The simple fact is, them clinging to the daughter and not letting her go has ruined their lives, it is an obsession and something I am sure their daughter would have never wanted for them. They have needed real honest counseling for a long time. People even do it with graves. My sisters husband was killed in Viet Nam in 1966. She never got over it and never married again. She visits the grave regularly and has never moved on in her life. I have told my wife I want to be cremated and gone, no graves or memorials. Remember me, but move on with the rest of your life, you can't live with ghosts. You know what is the worst part of this Schiavo thing may be? If she may somehow be aware, and if she is, she has been tortured by them all these years. The family is being selfish beyond all reason, let her go.

DickLeonard
03-25-2005, 08:35 AM
Cheesemouse, they do have a brain in their head, the only thing it's in the head of their penus.####

DickLeonard
03-25-2005, 08:47 AM
Wally The hospital could have drawn a blood sample and proved that there was insulin in her blood. What nurse would n't have insisted that blood be drawn or report to the hospital what had happened. I don't buy it either.####

DickLeonard
03-25-2005, 09:02 AM
JPB I know a Vice President of a Major Wall Street Firm. I gave him this bet, Who would you bet your life on that their
Corporate Report is totally accurate. His silence was deafening.####

JPB
03-25-2005, 11:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> JPB I know a Vice President of a Major Wall Street Firm. I gave him this bet, Who would you bet your life on that their
Corporate Report is totally accurate. His silence was deafening.#### <hr /></blockquote>

Not sure what you are getting at here. Although it brings up an article I recently read that argued the Enron mess was a result of postmodernist philosophy, which tends to be left wing irrationality. I don't know if I agree w/ the article or not, but it made some good points as to the problems with faking or making up reality. Lying. Irrational people of all persuasions are guilty of this.

JPB
03-25-2005, 11:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Wally The hospital could have drawn a blood sample and proved that there was insulin in her blood. What nurse would n't have insisted that blood be drawn or report to the hospital what had happened. I don't buy it either.####


Not necessarily. I think the difficulty of detecting a homicide w/ insulin is that the insulin is metabolized and often not checked for. I have not paid any attention to the allegations in the Schiavo case regarding this, but am aware of w/ one murder case where insulin was used. I don't know all the details of the metabolism and detection ofinsulin, but I am reasonably sure it is sneakier than other drugs/chemicals etc....
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theinel
03-26-2005, 03:02 AM
I'm sure that my politics wont match those of many others (I'm a registered Republican that hasen't voted for one since they sold out to the religious right) but I have to say that this case is a wakeup call to to the real "moral values" people that I know are everywhere in both the red and blue states accross the country. The Republican party has everything going for it right now except that those in power have no values at all and will do everything and anything they can to keep the rich and powerful donors they have in their pockets keep on giving.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-31-2005, 08:02 AM
Finally she is free of the prison she was living in.

Rest in peace.

I hope the truth will come out now. Now that the emotions can subside.

I actually heard this on a national talk show this morning. Some lady said Jeb Bush should have the National Guard go in there and get her like they did in Little Rock when the schools were integrated. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Deeman2
03-31-2005, 08:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> Finally she is free of the prison she was living in. <font color="blue"> Amen </font color>

Rest in peace.

I hope the truth will come out now. Now that the emotions can subside. <font color="blue"> This sad incident has made me rethink the whole ethical and political system in our country. It was shameful and heartbreaking at the same time. </font color>

I actually heard this on a national talk show this morning. Some lady said Jeb Bush should have the National Guard go in there and get her like they did in Little Rock when the schools were integrated. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <font color="blue"> On the right we had self-rightous political opportunists and quacks and the left had buzzards waiting for the end. At the same time, thousands who are suffering and need real attention are still ignored by both sides. Where are the advocates for the others in this same situation? Wait, there's no TV cameras there, are there?

It sad that you really don't want politicians or priests any more involved in your death than in your life....

God bless the ones they don't splash on the screen...Thye are the lucky ones. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman

DickLeonard
04-01-2005, 09:05 AM
Wally I believe in the Bible in its time. If this happened to Terry when Jesus walked the earth she would have died. To keep someone alive by artifical means is counter to death with dignity.

Now Tom Delay is going to solve the problem. As a Christian I believe Praise the Lord that raises up the poor[not the rich] In turning the other cheek[not bombing the hell out of Iraq. The Innocent that died there what chance did they have. Just Hypocrites.####

eg8r
04-01-2005, 09:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
As a Christian I believe Praise the Lord that raises up the poor[not the rich] In turning the other cheek[not bombing the hell out of Iraq. The Innocent that died there what chance did they have. Just Hypocrites.#### <hr /></blockquote> You might want to go dust that Bible off and give it a thorough reading. Given the definitions being used today, there were many, many innocent casualties in the battles fought in the Bible. Many of those deaths happened, because the Israelites were instructed by God to take the city. Those were not given much chance either. Did this make God a hypocrite also?

This is not intended to be a bible study, however, if you are going to use the Bible to explain your position, it would be nice to at least use it correctly.

Now that you have finally given your position on how you would have dealt with Iraq (turn the other cheek) I am confident in saying that would not have changed anything.

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy
04-01-2005, 10:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Wally I believe in the Bible in its time. If this happened to Terry when Jesus walked the earth she would have died. To keep someone alive by artifical means is counter to death with dignity.

<font color="blue">Amen brother </font color>

Now Tom Delay is going to solve the problem. As a Christian I believe Praise the Lord that raises up the poor[not the rich] In turning the other cheek[not bombing the hell out of Iraq. The Innocent that died there what chance did they have. Just Hypocrites.####

<font color="blue">No comment /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font color> <hr /></blockquote>