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chvymsl03
03-23-2005, 11:19 PM
I have been playing for a little while and think i am a decent player. One thing that I have been focussing on here lately is drawing the cue ball. I cannot for the life of me get this to work. I have tried to hit the ball harder and lower but all I can get then is a stop shot. Any pointers would be great. I usually shoot with a flat bridge rather than closed bridge could this be my problem?if so then why? I follow through my shot but it still doesnt work. Most of the time the cue ball follows rather than at least stopping. and as I said I am hitting well below center.
Thanks,
Jason

lord_shar
03-23-2005, 11:59 PM
For me, a closed bridge with a fast level stroke is more than enough to draw the ball half way accross the table.

Red circle cue balls also help since they have more mass along their outside, thereby giving the ball more rotational inertia.

SecaucusFats
03-24-2005, 12:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote chvymsl03:</font><hr> I have been playing for a little while and think i am a decent player. One thing that I have been focussing on here lately is drawing the cue ball. I cannot for the life of me get this to work. I have tried to hit the ball harder and lower but all I can get then is a stop shot. Any pointers would be great. I usually shoot with a flat bridge rather than closed bridge could this be my problem?if so then why? I follow through my shot but it still doesnt work. Most of the time the cue ball follows rather than at least stopping. and as I said I am hitting well below center.
Thanks,
Jason <hr /></blockquote>

Keep the cue as level as possible relative to the bed of the table. Use a nice loose grip ( a "death grip" greatly increases the possibility of imparting stun or stop action on the cueball). Keep your wrist nice and loose. Use a closed bridge. Hit really low on the cueball (you'd be surprised just how low you can stroke the cueball without miscuing or "golfing" the cueball up into the air). Follow through, (the exceptions to using a full follow through are a.)when you are very close to the object ball and will need to get the cue out of the way in a hurry or b.) when executing a "nip draw".

Practice with the cueball no more than 6" to 8" from the object ball. When you can consistently draw the ball back to various predetermined locations begin lengthening the cueball to object ball distances, 12" then 18" then 2', and so on. Be realistic in your expectations, do not attempt heroic draw shots from one end of the table to an object ball at the other end of the table, in such cases look for another way to play the shot and get acceptable position for your next shot.

Lastly, while a well executed draw shot is a beautiful thing to have in your arsenal of shots, do not become a draw addict. Use draw only when there is no other easier, more predictable, way to get position. Remember the old adage: "Draw for show, follow for cash."

nhp
03-24-2005, 02:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Lastly, while a well executed draw shot is a beautiful thing to have in your arsenal of shots, do not become a draw addict. Use draw only when there is no other easier, more predictable, way to get position. Remember the old adage: "Draw for show, follow for cash."
<hr /></blockquote>

Who did you quote that last part from? That's silly if you ask me. It's the people who struggle to draw their rock properly that would say to use it only as a 'last resort'. If you practice it enough, drawing the cueball is not hard to control at all. Watch the pros, none of them are afraid to draw the cueball.

If you are stopping or following the cueball instead of drawing it, it's very simple- you are not striking the cueball low enough. I'm pretty sure that at the last second you are dropping your elbow or doing something that is causing your cuetip to fling upwards. Try not to let any muscles tense up when you make contact, try to stay loose and fluid, and have your tip go thru the cueball like it's not even there.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-24-2005, 07:21 AM
[ QUOTE ]
"Draw for show, follow for cash."
<hr /></blockquote>

I think it's "draw for show, follow for dough" adapted from the old golf axiom "Drive for show, putt for dough"

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr>Who did you quote that last part from? That's silly if you ask me. <hr /></blockquote>

nhp, I tend to agree with you. Considering how often you need to get the cb back to the center of the table a good draw stroke is going to be used more often than follow. I would rather draw straight back 18" than follow 1 or 2 rails to get to the same place.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-24-2005, 07:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote chvymsl03:</font><hr> ...One thing that I have been focussing on here lately is drawing the cue ball. I cannot for the life of me get this to work....
<hr /></blockquote>

If you could find a qualified instructor you could save yourself a lot of time and grief.

A good instructor can have you drawing the ball in about 5 minutes.

Scott Lee
03-24-2005, 07:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote lord_shar:</font><hr>
Red circle cue balls also help since they have more mass along their outside, thereby giving the ball more rotational inertia.
<hr /></blockquote>

Huh? Hahahahahaha! That is REALLY funny! Draw is about the quality of the stroke...it has NOTHING to do with the CB! LOL

Scott Lee

Cane
03-24-2005, 08:38 AM
I agree with Wally... get with an instructor even if it's only an hour or so. He'll get you drawing the ball. It sounds like you have a stroke problem.

As for the red circle ball... well, I've got to go with Scott on this one. I don't care what kind of ball it is, you can draw it, or better be able to! Red Circle, Blue Circle, Measles ball, Aramith Valley, cheap Magnetics, Oversize Ball (still a few floating around), mud balls, whatever... with a good stroke, you can suck any of these balls back.

Later,
Bob

BigRigTom
03-24-2005, 08:48 AM
Picasso was an artist!
Drawing the cue ball is not a hard thing to learn and it is all technique nothing else.
What you need to learn is that draw is a result of the cue ball spining backward at the time it strikes the object ball and it doesn't sound to me like you know that.
The backward spend is a result of striking the cue ball below center and following through with the stroke so the tip stays in contact with the cue ball as long as possible. The friction between the cue tip and the cue ball causes the cue ball to have a backward spin. The more spend you have the longer it will persist giving the cue ball time to reach the object ball while still spinning backward. If the cue stops spining just at the instance of impact you have a stun shot and if it stops spinning before impact you will have a rolling cue ball which will usually result in follow.
Hope this makes sense...I think I am rambling now so I will "Shut up and go shoot pool!" /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Popcorn
03-24-2005, 08:48 AM
quote
"Use draw only when there is no other easier, more predictable, way to get position. Remember the old adage: "Draw for show, follow for cash.""

Could you explain this?

Popcorn
03-24-2005, 09:03 AM
If the ball isn't coming back, your not hitting it where you think you are. On your last stroke you are hitting it more center. Try using a stripped object ball as a cueball and see if there is back rotation. Aslo, if you are on a home table, clean the balls and cue ball it will make it a little easier. If it really intrests you, you may want to take a lesson or ask someone who plays well at the pool room to help you out, but in reality you should be able to teach yourself to draw the ball in just a few minutes with no problem. Just prastice it up close till you get a feel for it.

Cane
03-24-2005, 09:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
"Use draw only when there is no other easier, more predictable, way to get position. Remember the old adage: "Draw for show, follow for cash.""

Could you explain this? <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, I've always heard that, worded a bit differently in this part of the country, "Draw for flash, follow for cash", but never did buy into it. I was taught that any time you can shoot a stop shot to use it along with your knowledge of the tangent lines, to control the cue ball. A stop shot, after all, is just a quarter tip short of a draw shot, and in order to shoot a stop shot table length, then you essentially have to be able to hit a killer draw shot close up. So why would follow be the preferred hit? To me, you'd better master a good stop shot at all distances, but especially at long distances, which will help you master a good draw shot.

One more thing, follow through, doesn't, in my opinion, increase the contact time between the cue tip and the cue ball. "Follow through" is to assure you finish your stroke and that you are accelerating at contact. If you aren't finishing, or following through, then you have different muscles trying to stop the cue, and are therefore decelerating at contact. Example; in some situations, I use what is called a short stop stroke to draw a ball. While there is a finish to the stroke, it certainly would not qualify as what many would call "follow through" yet I can still draw the cue ball just about any distance I want it to go with that stroke.

Later,
Bob

randyg
03-24-2005, 09:39 AM
Hey Scott: Maybe a new cue would help....SPF-randyg

Billy_Bob
03-24-2005, 09:52 AM
Chalk before each and every draw shot, especially around the sides of the tip. Examine the tip under the light after chalking to be sure there are no black shiny spots.

Use a striped ball instead of the cue ball. SLOWLY or medium hit it with draw. Follow through until your tip touches the cloth at least 6 inches past the ball.

Notice that if you shoot just the striped ball down the table, it initially rolls backwards, then begins to slide, then begins a forward roll. Needless to say, if the ball is sliding when it hits the object ball, you will not get draw.

Try draw shots with the striped ball as the cue ball and the object ball 1 diamond away (closer).

Again, you can stroke slowly or medium and get good draw. That is if you chalk well before each shot and follow through until the tip of your cue touches the cloth on the table.

Fred Agnir
03-24-2005, 10:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote chvymsl03:</font><hr> I have been playing for a little while and think i am a decent player. One thing that I have been focussing on here lately is drawing the cue ball. I cannot for the life of me get this to work. I have tried to hit the ball harder and lower but all I can get then is a stop shot. Any pointers would be great. I usually shoot with a flat bridge rather than closed bridge could this be my problem?if so then why? I follow through my shot but it still doesnt work. Most of the time the cue ball follows rather than at least stopping. and as I said I am hitting well below center.
Thanks,
Jason <hr /></blockquote>Sounds like you're dropping your elbow causing your tip to rise.

See an instructor, or at least have someone watch you.

Fred

Deeman2
03-24-2005, 10:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>Sounds like you're dropping your elbow causing your tip to rise.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Good advice, Fred. He could easily check this by practicing the draw with a stripped ball turned sideways with the strip horizontal. The he could hit the draw, trying to strike the bottom of the strip and check the ball for his chalk mark. This would show if he's hitting it too high. </font color>

Deeman
the dot won't lie...

SecaucusFats
03-24-2005, 11:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Lastly, while a well executed draw shot is a beautiful thing to have in your arsenal of shots, do not become a draw addict. Use draw only when there is no other easier, more predictable, way to get position. Remember the old adage: "Draw for show, follow for cash."
<hr /></blockquote>

Who did you quote that last part from? That's silly if you ask me. It's the people who struggle to draw their rock properly that would say to use it only as a 'last resort'. If you practice it enough, drawing the cueball is not hard to control at all. Watch the pros, none of them are afraid to draw the cueball.

<hr /></blockquote>

I am operating under the assumption that the original poster is a beginner. He or she cannot draw at all, much less control the amount of draw imparted with any degree of precision. The only way for this individual to learn to draw and then to learn to draw with precision is thru practice. Until then, IMO, he or she should not be using draw for position in competitive play.

I believe strongly in the value of keeping things as simple as possible, which to me means using the simplest method that will allow me to make the shot and get good position for my next shot. It means that I will use a stop shot, rather than draw or follow, when a stop shot will give me the desired results, that I will elect to use a follow shot rather than draw when a follow shot will give me the desired results with the least amount of possible complications. It means that I will not use english when center ball will suffice. It means that I will go off one rail for position rather than two or three when one rail will work nicely. It means that I will play zone position, rather than line position, when zone position will get the job done.

Draw is more sensitive to factors such as how clean the balls are (have they been polished / waxed or are they dirty and stickier?), humidity, condition of the cloth (clean or dirty, fast or slow, new or old, worsted, or the typical bar box "shag rug" cloth?). Learning to recognize and deal with the above conditions is something that can only be achieved thru experience.

I can draw with a good deal of precision from an inch to the other end of the table or back to the rail with english for a two rail position shot. But again if there is an easier way to get the results I need then that and that alone is the basis for my choice of stroke.

And yes, I know all about the pro's and how they can shoot a draw shot the length of the table and draw back the length of the table, but be honest how many times do you see them doing that? Not too often I bet.

I am not a pro and neither is the original poster, so why should I try to pull off "hero" type shots? Better yet, why should I allow myself to get into a situation where I am forced to even have to contemplate such a shot? I don't know about the rest of you, but I still find some clay beneath my feet every so often, and therefore I like to stay within my limits.

Once the original poster has developed the requisite skills for good, controlled, draw, feels confident in his/her ability to execute the shot properly, and has the experience to correctly assess the situation at hand he/she will know when and when not to use it. Same goes for any and all other strokes.

K.I.S.S. -- Keep It Simple, Stupid (Or as Roy Yamane likes to put it: Keep It Simple, Student).

BigRigTom
03-24-2005, 01:14 PM
Seems like all the instructors suggest you hire an instructor for about any thing.
Take a look at this web site:
Dr. Dave demonstrates the "Power Draw" and it's free:<a href="http://
<a href="http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVA-10.htm" target="_blank">
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVA-10.htm (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVA-10.htm</a>)[/url]
He also narrates the technique and I bet even an instructor could follow his instructions. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

SecaucusFats
03-24-2005, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> quote
"Use draw only when there is no other easier, more predictable, way to get position. Remember the old adage: "Draw for show, follow for cash.""

Could you explain this? <hr /></blockquote>

See my response to NHP.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-24-2005, 02:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Seems like all the instructors suggest you hire an instructor for about any thing.
<hr /></blockquote>

Generally the people who recommend an instructor are the ones who have had instruction and know that it is a good investment.

I know a lady who had been playing pool for 10 years and could not draw the ball despite being "coached" by many of the local APA pool gods. They would tell her stuff like "just hit it low and pop it" and such nonsense.

I watched her first lesson with a local BCA instructor and he had her drawing the cb within 5 minutes.

Fred Agnir
03-24-2005, 02:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Seems like all the instructors suggest you hire an instructor for about any thing.
Take a look at this web site:
Dr. Dave demonstrates the "Power Draw" and it's free

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVA-10.htm]
He also narrates the technique and I bet even an instructor could follow his instructions. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>Do you really think that someone who has a problem drawing the ball can learn from that video?

It's a nice informational video on "what's a draw shot." It's not a good instructional video on drawing or power drawing.

Fred &lt;~~~ will go with "dropping the elbow"

Popcorn
03-24-2005, 02:46 PM
I dissagree a little, draw and the stop shot,also a draw shot, are the most common and usefull shots in the game. I would say most pros hit the cue ball somewhere below center most of the time. Draw does not just mean pulling the ball the length of the table. For a beginner, stop may be the first english they should learn, not avoide, they have to start somewhere. This is just my opinion, I would be interested in what the actual teachers on here would say.

Cane
03-24-2005, 03:08 PM
Popcorn, As an instructor, I agree with you 100%. The stop shot is the most important shot in pocket billiards and is the FIRST thing a beginner interested in getting better at the game should learn. If a player learns to shoot the same stroke speed for a 4 diamond stop shot as they do for a one diamond stop shot, then they can draw the shine off of a cue ball at short and medium distances. From the stop shot, you can move the cue down (or up) on the cue ball and get most any variation from the tangent line you want. Of course, this is just my opinion on the subject, but I have always felt that the stop shot was the most important shot in pool... and like you said, it's just a draw shot at anything more than very close quarters.

Later,
Bob

nhp
03-24-2005, 03:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
nhp, I tend to agree with you. Considering how often you need to get the cb back to the center of the table a good draw stroke is going to be used more often than follow. I would rather draw straight back 18" than follow 1 or 2 rails to get to the same place. <hr /></blockquote>

My thoughts exactly. Draw is used just as commonly, if not moreso than other types of english on a regular basis. I couldn't help but laugh when I heard "Draw for flash follow for cash", because all I could think of, is someone opting to go 3 rails for position juicing up the ball with follow instead of drawing back off one rail. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard of.

BigRigTom
03-24-2005, 03:14 PM
You are probably right Fred, anyone who is having problems drawing the cue ball will not be able to do it simply by watching this video.
Dr. Dave's book goes a lot deeper into the technique and explains it extremely well plus he explains what a draw shot is and how and why the cue ball draws. Most beginners misunderstand the draw shot in more ways than one. Draw on the cue ball is used to do lots of things...some being.... to back off of the object ball after contact, to stop the cue ball after contact, to slow the cue ball before impact so the resulting impact onto the object ball will cause the cue ball to travel a shorter distance, to increase the speed of the object ball with out hitting the cue ball harder...I'm sure there are lots of other uses of draw that I have never even heard of.
Draw is a very useful and necessary weapon to hold in one's arsenal but you don't have to know all the tricks to use the more simple ones and most people will be able to read and follow simple instructions without paying an instructor to demonstrate the technique.
Don't get me wrong...I think it is great to get professional instruction if you can afford it and some instructors are worth their weight in gold. I just don't think it is necessary to run to an instructor for every little thing...unless you have more money than you know what to do with that is.
Bottom line is that you have to practice any shot or technique until you can use it comfortably in a competition situation and until you do that it is all semantics.
I wonder how many instructors Picasso went to before he was known as an artist?

nhp
03-24-2005, 03:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I am operating under the assumption that the original poster is a beginner. He or she cannot draw at all, much less control the amount of draw imparted with any degree of precision. The only way for this individual to learn to draw and then to learn to draw with precision is thru practice. Until then, IMO, he or she should not be using draw for position in competitive play.
<hr /></blockquote>

So do you mean the "draw for flash follow for cash" statement is for beginners? I really hope so, because it's quoted either from a beginner, or someone who can't draw their rock lol.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe strongly in the value of keeping things as simple as possible, which to me means using the simplest method that will allow me to make the shot and get good position for my next shot. It means that I will use a stop shot, rather than draw or follow, when a stop shot will give me the desired results, that I will elect to use a follow shot rather than draw when a follow shot will give me the desired results with the least amount of possible complications. It means that I will not use english when center ball will suffice. It means that I will go off one rail for position rather than two or three when one rail will work nicely. It means that I will play zone position, rather than line position, when zone position will get the job done. <hr /></blockquote>

You're making draw sound like it's so advanced. Of course simplicity is the best way, but alot of times, even most of the time, a draw shot is more simplistic than a follow shot. That's my point.


[ QUOTE ]
Draw is more sensitive to factors such as how clean the balls are (have they been polished / waxed or are they dirty and stickier?), humidity, condition of the cloth (clean or dirty, fast or slow, new or old, worsted, or the typical bar box "shag rug" cloth?). Learning to recognize and deal with the above conditions is something that can only be achieved thru experience. <hr /></blockquote>

S.F., there are a TON of factors in pool that are sensitive to those factors. Hell, even cutting balls can be different in humid conditions. This effects almost all aspects to the game in a minor fashion, not just draw. It's not like if you play in a humid environment that draw suddenly becomes unpredictable and impossible to control.

[ QUOTE ]
And yes, I know all about the pro's and how they can shoot a draw shot the length of the table and draw back the length of the table, but be honest how many times do you see them doing that? Not too often I bet. <hr /></blockquote>

I was talking about them using draw in general.

[ QUOTE ]
I am not a pro and neither is the original poster, so why should I try to pull off "hero" type shots? Better yet, why should I allow myself to get into a situation where I am forced to even have to contemplate such a shot? I don't know about the rest of you, but I still find some clay beneath my feet every so often, and therefore I like to stay within my limits.
<hr /></blockquote>

Please tell me how you got from me advising the poster to practice and use draw as often as possible to learn it, to me telling him/her to pull off hero shots?

[ QUOTE ]
Once the original poster has developed the requisite skills for good, controlled, draw, feels confident in his/her ability to execute the shot properly, and has the experience to correctly assess the situation at hand he/she will know when and when not to use it. Same goes for any and all other strokes.
<hr /></blockquote>

And if the poster takes your advice and shies away from using draw, especially in competition, then he/she will never achieve what you just stated.

lord_shar
03-24-2005, 03:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote lord_shar:</font><hr>
Red circle cue balls also help since they have more mass along their outside, thereby giving the ball more rotational inertia.
<hr /></blockquote>

Huh? Hahahahahaha! That is REALLY funny! Draw is about the quality of the stroke...it has NOTHING to do with the CB! LOL

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Dude, it's all about physics. I have a cheapie normal cueball from an $80 ball set and a red-circle Aramith cue ball. I've done draw tests using both the exact same power + stroke, and the red-circle Aramith always follows and draws noticibly longer than the solid-core cue ball. Since I play on a slow table, the results are much more pronounced.

The same gyroscopic effect balances moving bikes and motorcycles.

Lastly, there's no need to be condescending... I know you're a qualified pool instructor, but what I mentioned above about solid vs hollow cue-balls is easy to quantify.

Nostroke
03-24-2005, 03:24 PM
I haven't tried a BCA Instructor but ive had plenty of help and i still cant draw worth a crap. I think it's for the same reason as half my problems in this game-I can't find center ball. Hard to draw when you are hitting the CB off to begin with.

Still I can beat some of these "draw addicts" and there are plenty of them. They love to see that juice and they cant resist using the big stroke on nearly every shot and that is what kills them.

Bob_Jewett
03-24-2005, 03:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote lord_shar:</font><hr> ...
Red circle cue balls also help since they have more mass along their outside, thereby giving the ball more rotational inertia.
<hr /></blockquote>
Probably the most sensitive test for this is the half-ball follow angle. How much different is that angle for the red circle you have compared to an object ball or another cue ball (all of the same weight)?

So far as I know, Aramith doesn't make layered-density cue balls, but I could be uninformed.

SPetty
03-24-2005, 03:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> So far as I know, Aramith doesn't make layered-density cue balls, but I could be uninformed. <hr /></blockquote>Except for that green logo Aramith ball for the bar box? It's been posted here that what makes this metallic ball more balanced (less off center) is that the metal is not a chunk in the core of the ball, but is in flakes somewhere out from the core. So if you were to take a ball, then wrap it in metal, then add a little more ball, that metal layer would be different.

There have been many people amazed at how well they can draw that green logo Aramith ball compared to others, and I believe it's due to that extra weight nearer the edge.

I believe that because I read it here a few years ago. I'll go hunting and see if I can find that post...

Bob_Jewett
03-24-2005, 03:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote chvymsl03:</font><hr> I have been playing for a little while and think i am a decent player. One thing that I have been focussing on here lately is drawing the cue ball. I cannot for the life of me get this to work.... <hr /></blockquote>
All that's required is to hit the ball low and firmly and not miscue.

Of course, it's nearly impossible for anyone here to try to diagnose your problem without seeing you shoot because you claim to be doing everything that's required. As mentioned before, a competent instructor will see immediately what your problem is and probably be able to get you to put good draw on the ball within a few minutes.

But that's not going to keep me from guessing about the cause of your problem: You don't know how to chalk. For many beginners, that underlying problem also causes them to drop the elbow on draw shots.

Checking for the chalk spot on the cued ball will at least show where you're hitting the ball as a first step in self-diagnosis, once you get the tip well-chalked.

lord_shar
03-24-2005, 03:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>
...&lt;snip&gt;...

So far as I know, Aramith doesn't make layered-density cue balls, but I could be uninformed. <hr /></blockquote>

I purchased the red-circle cue ball only a month ago from my local billiard store. The sales rep did refer to it as an Aramith, but then again, he could have been mistaken.

This particular red circle cue ball has a very glossy chalk resistant surface. My other cheapie cue ball has no gloss and shows many chalk stains.

GeraldG
03-24-2005, 03:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
nhp, I tend to agree with you. Considering how often you need to get the cb back to the center of the table a good draw stroke is going to be used more often than follow. I would rather draw straight back 18" than follow 1 or 2 rails to get to the same place. <hr /></blockquote>

My thoughts exactly. Draw is used just as commonly, if not moreso than other types of english on a regular basis. I couldn't help but laugh when I heard "Draw for flash follow for cash", because all I could think of, is someone opting to go 3 rails for position juicing up the ball with follow instead of drawing back off one rail. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard of. <hr /></blockquote>

If presented with a shot where I can either draw for position or follow for position (without sacrificing economy of cueball movement), I'll usually opt to follow. I think that this idea is where the saying originated. The normal advice is when all things are equal, let the cueball run naturally (forward). Couple that with the fact that most beginners tend to try to draw way too much (because it looks cool) and they haven't yet learned to effectively control draw, and I can see why a pool instructor would use a phrase like that. Draw is not as easy or intuitive to learn to control as follow is.

Once that beginner's game gets to a higher level, then draw is equal in importance to follow.

I think that this is a phrase that probably has it's place at certain developmental levels, but has been taken way too much to heart. A poolplayer without a good draw shot is like a carpenter that doesn't know how to use a saw. As long as all of his lumber is the right size, he's fine....if he has a board that's too long, he can't build the house.

SPetty
03-24-2005, 03:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> I'll go hunting and see if I can find that post...<hr /></blockquote>Trying to help...

A Post (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=79943)

"I had a couple of games where I should have got out, but the cue ball just kept on running too far (compared to the usual Valley cue ball)."

Another Post (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=103454)

"During my first game I noticed the cue ball was drawing easier than normal."
"I couldn't adjust to the draw I was able to put on it. Every position I played involving draw was overshot !"
"I felt the new ball tracked better. The old one starts to wonder when it slows. The new one acted more like a normal ball without the moves at the end."
"I did not think of it at the time but I played a couple of slow-roll safeties sending the CB about 5 or 6 feet last night and the ball did roll straight."
"I think someone on this board mentioned seeing the insides of one of these. It's a regular object ball (must be a second, or aesthetic defect) turned down, wrapped with a layer of metal or metal flake, and then phenolic cast around it."

And Yet Another Post (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=104010)

"Close to the same weight as the object balls. Metal foil/flake layer. Works on magnetic return systems. Rolls straighter. Gets dirty quickly."

GeraldG
03-24-2005, 03:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote chvymsl03:</font><hr> I have been playing for a little while and think i am a decent player. One thing that I have been focussing on here lately is drawing the cue ball. I cannot for the life of me get this to work. I have tried to hit the ball harder and lower but all I can get then is a stop shot. Any pointers would be great. I usually shoot with a flat bridge rather than closed bridge could this be my problem?if so then why? I follow through my shot but it still doesnt work. Most of the time the cue ball follows rather than at least stopping. and as I said I am hitting well below center.
Thanks,
Jason <hr /></blockquote>Sounds like you're dropping your elbow causing your tip to rise.

See an instructor, or at least have someone watch you.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I'd be willing to bet good money that this is exactly the problem.

ras314
03-24-2005, 03:57 PM
The red circle cb's I bought from Muellers came with little Aramith stickers on them. They do have a very glossy finish which stays cleaner and polishes much easier than other cb's I have. Which could explain why the red circle often seems to draw better.

I've even loaned them out in bar tournaments and they still look like new. Nothing like bouncing off concrete walls to check out a ball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
03-24-2005, 05:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
and as I said I am hitting well below center.
Thanks,
<hr /></blockquote>

At least you think you are. LOL If it is struck with low at a reasonable distance, with enough speed it will draw with far less than perfect stroke.

Use a horizontal striped ball or the black line around the numbers. See where you chalk mark hits. It should be close to the circle or the lower line setting it horzontal. Chalk well and observe.

Rod

SecaucusFats
03-24-2005, 05:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I am operating under the assumption that the original poster is a beginner. He or she cannot draw at all, much less control the amount of draw imparted with any degree of precision. The only way for this individual to learn to draw and then to learn to draw with precision is thru practice. Until then, IMO, he or she should not be using draw for position in competitive play.
<hr /></blockquote>

So do you mean the "draw for flash follow for cash" statement is for beginners? I really hope so, because it's quoted either from a beginner, or someone who can't draw their rock lol.

<font color="red">Yes, I meant it for beginner level players.

BTW, I first heard that from Bert Kinister and we all know he's no beginner. If you are implying that I don't know how to draw then rest assured that it's probably one of the things I do best. </font color>

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I believe strongly in the value of keeping things as simple as possible, which to me means using the simplest method that will allow me to make the shot and get good position for my next shot. It means that I will use a stop shot, rather than draw or follow, when a stop shot will give me the desired results, that I will elect to use a follow shot rather than draw when a follow shot will give me the desired results with the least amount of possible complications. It means that I will not use english when center ball will suffice. It means that I will go off one rail for position rather than two or three when one rail will work nicely. It means that I will play zone position, rather than line position, when zone position will get the job done. <hr /></blockquote>

You're making draw sound like it's so advanced. Of course simplicity is the best way, but alot of times, even most of the time, a draw shot is more simplistic than a follow shot. That's my point.

<font color="red">How many times have you seen a novice get out of shape using draw? I don't know about you, but I see it all the time. A guy wants to draw back 6" to 8" and winds up drawing it 1' or more, or barely draws it back and either way winds up snookered or facing a really tough shot. IMO, follow is easier to judge and control. Draw is easy too, when you know what you're doing, and have developed the touch needed for precise control of the rock.

Jeez, you'd think I was uttering blasphemies or something. </font color>


&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Draw is more sensitive to factors such as how clean the balls are (have they been polished / waxed or are they dirty and stickier?), humidity, condition of the cloth (clean or dirty, fast or slow, new or old, worsted, or the typical bar box "shag rug" cloth?). Learning to recognize and deal with the above conditions is something that can only be achieved thru experience. <hr /></blockquote>

S.F., there are a TON of factors in pool that are sensitive to those factors. Hell, even cutting balls can be different in humid conditions. This effects almost all aspects to the game in a minor fashion, not just draw. It's not like if you play in a humid environment that draw suddenly becomes unpredictable and impossible to control.

<font color="red">Here's a couple of question for you: (BTW when I say "draw" I mean just that, I am not talking about stop or stun.)

You are playing on brand new Simonis 760, the balls have just been feshly cleaned and waxed. Which stroke will require greater adjustment, follow, stop, stun, stun run thru, a draw drag, or draw?

You normally play on a nine foot table with 860, and either Brunswick Centennials or Aramith Super Pros which are kept fairly clean. Today you find yourself playing on a bar box, with cheap non-worsted cloth that is filthy and equally grimy balls with a 2 1/4 " (but overweight) plugged cue ball, or worse yet one of those dreaded oversize and overweight "Fat Albert" coin op ball. Again which stroke will require the most adjustment for precise position?


<font color="red"> BTW, regarding the pros, just because Efren or Archer can do something and make it look easy, it doesn't make it easy for a beginner. And let's not forget that the countless hours pros spend practicing and playing.</font color>

<font color="black">&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt; </font color>
<font color="black">I am not a pro and neither is the original poster, so why should I try to pull off "hero" type shots? Better yet, why should I allow myself to get into a situation where I am forced to even have to contemplate such a shot? I don't know about the rest of you, but I still find some clay beneath my feet every so often, and therefore I like to stay within my limits.
<hr /></blockquote>

Please tell me how you got from me advising the poster to practice and use draw as often as possible to learn it, to me telling him/her to pull off hero shots?
</font color>
<font color="red"> OK maybe I misunderstood you, "my bad". </font color>

<font color="black"> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Once the original poster has developed the requisite skills for good, controlled, draw, feels confident in his/her ability to execute the shot properly, and has the experience to correctly assess the situation at hand he/she will know when and when not to use it. Same goes for any and all other strokes.
<hr /></blockquote> </font color>

<font color="black">And if the poster takes your advice and shies away from using draw, especially in competition, then he/she will never achieve what you just stated.
</font color>
<font color="red">What I am saying is that he/she should practice it enough to have developed a basic modicum of ability and the confidence that goes with it, then go use it in competitive play. If he/she just goes off trying to draw in competition when he/she has not developed some basic level of proficiency then the likely result will be a sell out. If our hero or heroine goes out and does that enough times it can demoralize him or her to the point where they may decide to (God forbid!) take up bowling or some such thing (shudder). So why should he/she do that? Why not just look for another alternative like a stop, stun, or follow shot (at least until he or she has at a minimum the ability to actually draw the rock with some reasonable expectation of success)?
</font color>

SecaucusFats
03-24-2005, 05:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
nhp, I tend to agree with you. Considering how often you need to get the cb back to the center of the table a good draw stroke is going to be used more often than follow. I would rather draw straight back 18" than follow 1 or 2 rails to get to the same place. <hr /></blockquote>

My thoughts exactly. Draw is used just as commonly, if not moreso than other types of english on a regular basis. I couldn't help but laugh when I heard "Draw for flash follow for cash", because all I could think of, is someone opting to go 3 rails for position juicing up the ball with follow instead of drawing back off one rail. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard of. <hr /></blockquote>

If presented with a shot where I can either draw for position or follow for position (without sacrificing economy of cueball movement), I'll usually opt to follow. I think that this idea is where the saying originated. The normal advice is when all things are equal, let the cueball run naturally (forward). Couple that with the fact that most beginners tend to try to draw way too much (because it looks cool) and they haven't yet learned to effectively control draw, and I can see why a pool instructor would use a phrase like that. Draw is not as easy or intuitive to learn to control as follow is.

Once that beginner's game gets to a higher level, then draw is equal in importance to follow.

I think that this is a phrase that probably has it's place at certain developmental levels, but has been taken way too much to heart. A poolplayer without a good draw shot is like a carpenter that doesn't know how to use a saw. As long as all of his lumber is the right size, he's fine....if he has a board that's too long, he can't build the house. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">Tap, tap, tap! This is what I was trying to say but you said far more eloquently. Thanks! </font color>

chvymsl03
03-24-2005, 05:47 PM
he or she should not be using draw for position in competitive play.

I believe strongly in the value of keeping things as simple as possible



I agree that draw should be used and things should be as simple as possible. Thats the reason for my post. I have been using follow to obtain player position rather than draw due to the fact that i cant get it to work. and running follow around some rails is not very simple and leaves much room for error. I am going to the hall tonight and I will use you guys advice. I appreciate all posts
Thanks
Jason

Fred Agnir
03-24-2005, 06:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote lord_shar:</font><hr> I've done draw tests using both the exact same power + stroke, and the red-circle Aramith always follows and draws noticibly longer than the solid-core cue ball.


Lastly, there's no need to be condescending... I know you're a qualified pool instructor, but what I mentioned above about solid vs hollow cue-balls is easy to quantify.
<hr /></blockquote>But you're initial assumption is incorrect. The red circle ball is not hollow nor does it have a mass layer at the outer surface. I think you're confusing it with a different ball. The green Aramith logo ball maybe?

That being said, the biggest reason that the red circle cue ball draws more is that it is made of a different material than other pool cue balls. Saluc (Aramith) have confirmed that the red circle is made from one of their carom resins, a resin that has more return of energy.

Fred

chvymsl03
03-24-2005, 06:04 PM
How would I go about getting in contact with an instructor? I am sure what I am doing wrong is in my stroke, because I was shooting with an open bridge rather than a closed and I noticed a change in the c/b's actions, so I think my stroke is off now

lord_shar
03-24-2005, 06:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote lord_shar:</font><hr> I've done draw tests using both the exact same power + stroke, and the red-circle Aramith always follows and draws noticibly longer than the solid-core cue ball.


Lastly, there's no need to be condescending... I know you're a qualified pool instructor, but what I mentioned above about solid vs hollow cue-balls is easy to quantify.
<hr /></blockquote>But you're initial assumption is incorrect. The red circle ball is not hollow nor does it have a mass layer at the outer surface. I think you're confusing it with a different ball. The green Aramith logo ball maybe?

That being said, the biggest reason that the red circle cue ball draws more is that it is made of a different material than other pool cue balls. Saluc (Aramith) have confirmed that the red circle is made from one of their carom resins, a resin that has more return of energy.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

OK, fair enough /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

My main point was that cue ball type DOES affect its roll, draw, english, etc... nothing more.

Yes, the stroke is a vital component, but the cue ball type also matters.

pooltchr
03-24-2005, 09:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nostroke:</font><hr> I haven't tried a BCA Instructor but ive had plenty of help and i still cant draw worth a crap. I think it's for the same reason as half my problems in this game-I can't find center ball. Hard to draw when you are hitting the CB off to begin with.

Still I can beat some of these "draw addicts" and there are plenty of them. They love to see that juice and they cant resist using the big stroke on nearly every shot and that is what kills them. <hr /></blockquote>

A good instructor is going to make sure your stroke, stance, grip, alignment, speed control and making sure you can make contact where you think you are making contact with the cue ball before they start working on your draw shot with you. That's the advantage of a good instructor. They can teach you the things you need to execute the shot rather than just telling you to "hit it low and kinda pop it".

As for the whole issue of draw...yes I agree it is an important part of any good player's game, but it is also way over used by the majority of players once they learn it. The key is finding the simplest way to get cue ball position. In many cases, using the natural roll and just controlling speed will get the job done simply.
Steve

pooltchr
03-24-2005, 09:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote chvymsl03:</font><hr> How would I go about getting in contact with an instructor? I am sure what I am doing wrong is in my stroke, because I was shooting with an open bridge rather than a closed and I noticed a change in the c/b's actions, so I think my stroke is off now <hr /></blockquote>

www.bca-pool.com/play (http://www.bca-pool.com/play)
click on the instruction tab and look for the lists of Active and Reserve instructors. They are listed by the state where they are located. Both list are well qualified instructors...one group just works with more students while others may just work part time.
If you can swing it, a trip to Dallas and Randyg's school would be well worth your time and money.
Steve
(Going back to Cue-Tech next week and looking forward to teaching with and learning from Randy and the gang again!)

Cane
03-25-2005, 12:49 AM
Steve... I'll see you in Dallas. I'm coming down for the same class. Looking forward to meeting you.

Later,
Bob

pooltchr
03-25-2005, 06:20 AM
Bob,
Great...will look forward to seeing you there! Will be arriving sometime Thursday...maybe we can get together for a couple of friendly games of 9-ball while we are there.
Steve

Gayle in MD
03-25-2005, 07:24 AM
Chalk up !
Check and make sure your arm is perpendicular to the floor at point of contact, bridge hand solid, not too far away from the cueball, 5 to 8 inch range.
Make sure your cuestick is level throughout your stroke.
Take atleast five level practice strokes.
Pause before your contact stroke.
Strike the cueball dead center at six thirty, with a level stick, not too hard, and FOLLLOW THROUGH !


The pause is very improtant when you are learning to draw, it helps you determine center hit, at six thirty. Imagine the cueball rolling backwards before the strike. Keep the faith, it'll happen for ya if you make up your mind that you can do it!

good luck!

Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif the poster with no natural ability for this game!

bluey2king
03-25-2005, 09:32 AM
Howdy, Looks like you are getting tons of advice. I had problems also and someone on this site help me with this. You might be "Choking the Chicken". **LOL** Joke aside. I was hitting Harder and lower!! and Harder!! I got a Jim Remphe (sic) target training cue ball. I found that I was not hitting the ball where I thought I was. This happened because I wanted to really get some draw I was Hitting hard!! I would tense up both with my bridge hand and my wrist of my shooting hand. I went to an open bridge and relax. Try shaking out your shooting arm making a point release yout tense muscles. Open bridge hand flat on the table so you can't tense it and raise the tip without knowing it. Start shooting directly into the side pocket you will not need to hit it very hard about lag speed and it should come back to your side pocket.
I hope this helps...been there!!

Voodoo Daddy
03-25-2005, 10:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote lord_shar:</font><hr>Red circle cue balls also help since they have more mass along their outside, thereby giving the ball more rotational inertia. <hr /></blockquote>

So I guess you really draw the snot out of a Black Circle 8oz. bar ball...dont get any "mass-ive" than they do!!

Voodoo&lt;~~~screaming for Calgone, HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

lord_shar
03-25-2005, 10:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote lord_shar:</font><hr>Red circle cue balls also help since they have more mass along their outside, thereby giving the ball more rotational inertia. <hr /></blockquote>

So I guess you really draw the snot out of a Black Circle 8oz. bar ball...dont get any "mass-ive" than they do!!

Voodoo&lt;~~~screaming for Calgone, HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! <hr /></blockquote>

Couldn't tell ya... never tried it /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

SPetty
03-25-2005, 10:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr> I went to an open bridge and relax. <hr /></blockquote>The best draw stroke I ever achieved was with an open bridge.

theinel
03-25-2005, 08:10 PM
Cue stick acceleration at contact is one of the two most important factors in draw (or follow). The other is how far below the center of the ball it is struck. An accelerating cue stick, with a well shaped and well chalked tip, can draw the cue ball whether it is level with the table or nearly vertical (as in a masse shot), whether it has little follow through (as in a nip draw) or a lot, whether it is moving slowly or quickly.

One
03-26-2005, 01:47 AM
Do you drop your elbow too much in your follow through?

Fred Agnir
03-26-2005, 07:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr> Cue stick acceleration at contact is one of the two most important factors in draw (or follow). <hr /></blockquote>It seems like only 8 or 10 years ago when this saying was first disproven.


Fred

Pied Piper
03-26-2005, 09:53 AM
bridge closer to the cue ball, and FOLLOW THROUGH. you do not have to hit the crud out of the ball, or scrape the cloth with the tip. Follow through. Oh yeah don't forget to chalk. I had the same problem, but that is what I found. I new cloth, I can get the cue ball to rebound off the ob and after a momentary pause, take off. But the trick I found was follow through

Bob_Jewett
03-26-2005, 10:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr> Cue stick acceleration at contact is one of the two most important factors in draw (or follow). <hr /></blockquote>It seems like only 8 or 10 years ago when this saying was first disproven.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>
The problem is that most people have no idea of the speed/time profile of their stroke, or what "acceleration" really means. Of course it's technically inaccurate to say that the stick should still be accelerating when it hits the cue ball, but maybe it is an effective but false thing to say to get a beginner to not jerk the stroke to a stop before the stick hits the ball.

One more time: You want, for many reasons already discussed many times, to hit the cue ball at the peak of the cue stick's speed. By definition, that is at the end of the acceleration phase. This gives maximum speed control and maximum power.

GeraldG
03-26-2005, 05:04 PM
The problem with explaining this to someone that is just trying to learn to draw the cueball is that, for some ungodly reason, the word "accelleration" sticks in their minds like that's the only word you used. Then they try to get maximum accelleration and end up trying to hit the cueball 50 times harder than they would on a normal shot (and every beginner hits the cueball WAYYY too hard anyway)...then comes the inevitable elbow-drop and the cue-tip moves up a half inch or so at contact and the result is a way-too-hard center ball or above shot, the cueball rockets around the table 3 or 4 times or hits a cushion at mach-3 and jumps off the table and they say "See? I just can't do it!"

For me it's much easier to explain the concept of draw and demonstrate it using a very small amount of draw and an easy stroke to begin with and as they catch on increase the speed and amount of draw incrementally. Then they understand that they don't have to hit the cueball any harder than any other shot, it's all in the stroke.

Your explanations of the physics behind this game are amazing to me and very, very interesting...extremely cool stuff....for the more advanced student of the game. But trying to explain them to someone that is brand new to the game is like trying to explain Molecular Microbiology to my dog...he's just not going to get it and all he really gives a crap about is if I have a dog biscuit in my pocket for him or not.

Coincidentally, I was just showing a new student to the game how to start using draw last Thursday night. In 10 minutes, he was using draw and controlling it (to some extent, anyway), using just a small amount of draw and an easy stroke (the 3 ball side-pocket draw drill).

theinel
03-26-2005, 05:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr> Cue stick acceleration at contact is one of the two most important factors in draw (or follow). <hr /></blockquote>It seems like only 8 or 10 years ago when this saying was first disproven.

<font color="blue">Fred: Sorry for writing something incorrect. This is the first time that I have ever heard anyone say I was wrong about this. Unfortunatly I've told it to dozens of people over the years. Out of curiosity how was it disproven?</font color>
Fred <hr /></blockquote>
The problem is that most people have no idea of the speed/time profile of their stroke, or what "acceleration" really means. Of course it's technically inaccurate to say that the stick should still be accelerating when it hits the cue ball, but maybe it is an effective but false thing to say to get a beginner to not jerk the stroke to a stop before the stick hits the ball.

One more time: You want, for many reasons already discussed many times, to hit the cue ball at the peak of the cue stick's speed. By definition, that is at the end of the acceleration phase. This gives maximum speed control and maximum power.

<font color="blue">Bob: Thanks for the clarification. I really appreciate your contirbutions to the game.</font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Fred Agnir
03-26-2005, 06:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>It seems like only 8 or 10 years ago when this saying was first disproven.

<font color="blue">Fred: Sorry for writing something incorrect. This is the first time that I have ever heard anyone say I was wrong about this. Unfortunatly I've told it to dozens of people over the years. Out of curiosity how was it disproven?</font color>
<hr /></blockquote>Simple physics model, casual observation, and more recently, high-speed video. Pool players will generally hit the cueball at near constant speed (nearly zero acceleration). In fact, I believe many of us are actually decelarating upon impact. The speed and the tip position at contact is the key, not acceleration.


Fred &lt;~~~ got corrected 8 years ago, and is better for it.

tenacjed
03-26-2005, 07:33 PM
drawing the cueball is all stroke. It needs to be fluid, smooth, relaxed with emphasis on follow through. if the cb is stopping your popping it. I was told 18 yrs ago when I started to hit through the cueball as if it 2 inches in front of where it really is (that may be hard to visualize but try). That was to force to me to stop popping at it and go THROUGH the ball. It takes time

I would never alter my pattern around not drawing a ball that's assinine. you can't win with that mentality. if your scared of shot than thats the shot you have to master.

Bob_Jewett
03-27-2005, 08:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tenacjed:</font><hr> drawing the cueball is all stroke. It needs to be fluid, smooth, relaxed with emphasis on follow through. if the cb is stopping your popping it. I was told 18 yrs ago when I started to hit through the cueball as if it 2 inches in front of where it really is (that may be hard to visualize but try). That was to force to me to stop popping at it and go THROUGH the ball. It takes time
... <hr /></blockquote>
That suggestion -- about imagining the cue ball farther ahead -- is in Byrne's "Standard" book. On the other hand, we have the example of Allen Hopkins, who has been known to draw the ball well (but I would not urge a student to copy his style).

BigRigTom
03-28-2005, 11:17 AM
Draw shots are really not near a complicated as you all are making it sound. Beginners can learn to do it pretty good in 5 minutes of practice then spend the rest of their life learning when to NOT use it.

Quoting The Monk "**.....the draw stroke is the most abused stroke in pool and....many players misuse this stroke and end up with terrible positions.....**"

Drawing the cue ball is simply making sure the cue ball spins backward after hitting the object ball and you will have a draw shot. How much draw is another matter altogether and depends on all those other factors that every one keeps talking about.

Bob_Jewett
03-28-2005, 11:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> ... Quoting The Monk "**.....the draw stroke is the most abused stroke in pool and....many players misuse this stroke and end up with terrible positions.....**" ... <hr /></blockquote>
I think that idea is completely separate from how to get draw on the cue ball (which is simply to chalk well, hit the ball low and with enough force for the purpose).

In what sense is draw abused? Can you give an example position?

Fred Agnir
03-28-2005, 02:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Draw shots are really not near a complicated as you all are making it sound. Beginners can learn to do it pretty good in 5 minutes of practice then spend the rest of their life learning when to NOT use it.<hr /></blockquote> Considering the original poster's dilemma, I'd say this isn't so easy to say.



[ QUOTE ]
Quoting The Monk "**.....the draw stroke is the most abused stroke in pool and....many players misuse this stroke and end up with terrible positions.....**"
<hr /></blockquote>What percentage of players do you think "abuse draw"? Isn't it that only the players who just start learning how to draw the ball well are ones who use draw too much? Don't they have to go through this process to understand the limits of their draw stroke? What is the percentage of players who draw for looks? Isn't it close to zero? Okay, maybe 2%??

Aren't the players who are having trouble with draw the ones who aren't using it enough (because they're having trouble with it)?

Fred

dr_dave
03-28-2005, 05:30 PM
There are many good suggestions in this thread already. Below is my two-cents-worth summary of good draw technique. I apologize in advance if the summary is obvious or repetitive based on other messages in this thread. Here it goes anyway:

1. Make sure the cue tip is well prepared (shaped and textured) and chalked.

2. For more draw action, hit the cue ball further below center, but not so far as to cause a miscue.

3. For more draw action, hit the cue ball harder (i.e., generate more cue stick speed).

4. Make sure your aim is true (concerning the contact point on the cue ball) and your stroke is straight.

Other advice:

a. Concerning 2 and 3, in general, hit the cue ball lower and softer vs. higher and harder (especially for short distances to the object ball). When the object ball is far away, you have no choice but to hit the cue ball low AND hard (to achieve good draw).

b. Things that help many people achieve 3 and 4 above are:
- Keep your grip and wrist relaxed.
- Follow through more than normal.
- TRY TO accelerate through the ball.

c. Practice (with an instructor and/or video camera watching) to make sure you are doing 2, 3, and 4 well. Then practice a lot more.

Bottom line: As Bob and others have pointed out, the only things that really matter are the cue tip contact point on the cue ball and the cue stick speed (assuming you don't miscue).

Dr. Dave
The Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/)

aco76
03-29-2005, 02:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>What is the percentage of players who draw for looks? Isn't it close to zero? Okay, maybe 2%??
Fred <hr /></blockquote>

More than 2% I'd say. I'm one of those draw addicts who is trying to get rid of that nasty habit. I'm doing well, but every once in a while that draw bug gets to me and I just can't resist pulling off an attractive shot just for the sake of it.

BlindPlayer
03-31-2005, 12:06 AM
A good "stroke" is the biggest factor in drawing the cue ball. Beginning with a level stroke - I also...choke up 4" on the cue from my original hand position. What this does is it changes the arc of the shaft just slightly and it works better for me. And remember "chalk is cheap". You must "groom" the cue tip and give it a good coat of chalk before an important draw shot.

pooltchr
03-31-2005, 11:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BlindPlayer:</font><hr> You must "groom" the cue tip and give it a good coat of chalk before an important draw shot. <hr /></blockquote>

As opposed to an "unimportant" shot???????

Steve---thinks all shots are important!

BlindPlayer
03-31-2005, 11:13 AM
In my last reply to the draw shot I had mentioned that I choke up on the cue stick about 4" which slightly changes the arc of my foreman. To clearify, choking up actually facilitates a more fluid straighter stroke. The arc created by the pendulum action of the foreman is straightened out for those that have the "model stroke". I don't, as yet, have the model stroke. Choking up helps more closely achieve this. It works for me anyway.

BlindPlayer
03-31-2005, 11:07 PM
Good point...all shots are important. What I meant was this - when we blow our shape and put ourselves in a position where we have to get lots of draw out of the cue ball this shot now becomes important in order to save face and get the shape one should've gotten in the first place.

The risk of writing - so many connotations to the words and phrases we use based on the filter of the reader. Buzz words can open doors not intented by the writer.