PDA

View Full Version : What are the origins of the term "english"



ras314
03-24-2005, 08:22 PM
I'm curious why spin on a cb is called english. And why do most claim english is the side spin component only? Is this a British term similar to potting a ball instead of simply making the bloody thing?

SecaucusFats
03-24-2005, 09:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> I'm curious why spin on a cb is called english. And why do most claim english is the side spin component only? Is this a British term similar to potting a ball instead of simply making the bloody thing?
<hr /></blockquote>

The precise origin of the term will probably never be known, but it is believed to have originated when English players visiting the US first demonstrated side spin in the early 19th century. Americans started refering to side spin as the "English" technique and eventually it was simply called "english". In England it is called "side".

In Spain and Latin America it is called "efecto" or effect.

BTW here's an interesting little tidbit; in Spanish speaking countries the cue ball is called "el mingo" (mean-goh) a corruption of "Mingaud" (Mingaud a Frenchman was the creator of the very first leather cue tip.)

Cane
03-25-2005, 12:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SecaucusFats:</font><hr> In Spain and Latin America it is called "efecto" or effect.

BTW here's an interesting little tidbit; in Spanish speaking countries the cue ball is called "el mingo" (mean-goh) a corruption of "Mingaud" (Mingaud a Frenchman was the creator of the very first leather cue tip.)

<hr /></blockquote>

SF, If I recall, Mingaud was in prison for quite some time and in his time there came up with the idea of the leather tip. My understanding was that he toured Europe after his release putting on demonstrations, so to speak, of spinning the cue ball with his leather tip. I also understand that he never made any appreciable money at it and died a pauper. Do you know if this is true?

Later,
Bob

GeraldG
03-25-2005, 05:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SecaucusFats:</font><hr> In Spain and Latin America it is called "efecto" or effect.

BTW here's an interesting little tidbit; in Spanish speaking countries the cue ball is called "el mingo" (mean-goh) a corruption of "Mingaud" (Mingaud a Frenchman was the creator of the very first leather cue tip.)

<hr /></blockquote>

SF, If I recall, Mingaud was in prison for quite some time and in his time there came up with the idea of the leather tip. My understanding was that he toured Europe after his release putting on demonstrations, so to speak, of spinning the cue ball with his leather tip. I also understand that he never made any appreciable money at it and died a pauper. Do you know if this is true?

Later,
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

That's what I've read. I also heard that he didn't want to leave prison because he didn't have a pool table.

ras314
03-25-2005, 08:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SecaucusFats:</font><hr>
In Spain and Latin America it is called "efecto" or effect.

BTW here's an interesting little tidbit; in Spanish speaking countries the cue ball is called "el mingo" (mean-goh) a corruption of "Mingaud" (Mingaud a Frenchman was the creator of the very first leather cue tip.)
<hr /></blockquote>
Interesting, I'll have to see what the Mexican players here have to say.

~~~always willing to learn ~~~

Scott Lee
03-25-2005, 10:03 AM
Roy...I explained this to you, when we spent the day together in El Paso, a couple years ago. We instructors want to help our students understand the fundamental difference between directional spin (topspin or draw, with NO sidespin), and rotational spin (striking the CB right or left of the vertical axis). For example, I cannot believe the number of students, of all abilities, that I run into, that do NOT know that sidespin has NO effect on the tangent line of the CB (until the CB hits a rail). ONLY topspin and draw make the CB curve.

You can intentionally or accidentally stroke the CB with BOTH directional and rotational spin (shooting with high right spin, for example). It is extremely important, imo, to understand the subtle differences in using sidespin vs. follow or draw only. Far too many players add sidespin to top or bottom directional spin, without realizing that they can move the CB easily without the sidespin. It is interesting to note that up-and-coming pro player Shawn Putnam recently revamped his own game, by intentionally playing much less sidespin, and more vertical axis position play. He has won the last two pro events...might be something to this! LOL

Centuries ago, when Englishmen visited the colonies, they called "english" SIDE (and still do today), and draw is called "SCREW". So they had different terms for both kinds of spin too! Many players use the verbage "english" when they are describing ANY kind of spin on the CB. To me, it is much easier to understand, by differentiating verbally, between sidespin (rotational spin) and verical axis spin (directional spin). FYI, rotational spin stays on the CB 10x longer than directional spin.

Scott Lee

SecaucusFats
03-25-2005, 11:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr>
SF, If I recall, Mingaud was in prison for quite some time and in his time there came up with the idea of the leather tip. My understanding was that he toured Europe after his release putting on demonstrations, so to speak, of spinning the cue ball with his leather tip. I also understand that he never made any appreciable money at it and died a pauper. Do you know if this is true?

Later,
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Bob,

While he was in jail (on political charges) he had access to a billiard table which he played on daily. It was during this time that he came up with the idea of using a bit of shoe sole leather as a tip. His sentence expired before he had perfected his new invention, so he petitioned to be allowed to stay in jail a bit longer! Upon his release he amazed the public with never before seen shots, that were only possible using a leather tip.

I'm not sure about his having ended up a pauper but I will look into my books and see what Mike Shamos, and Stein &amp; Rubino have on the subject. I'll get back to you with the answer.

ras314
03-25-2005, 02:33 PM
Hey Scott,

I've no problem with what happens when a rotating or non rotating cb contacts an ob. Just that the terminology seems somewhat arbitrary and is different in different parts of the country. Also seems to me a moving cb is rotating around an axis if it isn't sliding. Just more difference in how to describe the same thing.

Best demonstration of side spin (ok...english) not effecting the path of the cb I've seen was your trick shot with Blackjack in El Paso where the ob is spun at a high rate, then shot into the end rail coming off at an angle into the side pocket. As far as I could tell both the cb and ob paths were the same as if there was no spin. Until the ob hit the rail of course. That would make a good high speed video.

I do have to wonder if there is such a thing as spin induced throw that the cb path must also be changed slightly. Wouldn't seem of much use even if the path is changed by such a slight amount.

Englishmen still like to call us "the colonies" /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Didn't know they called draw "screw" though.

theinel
03-25-2005, 04:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>...I cannot believe the number of students, of all abilities, that I run into, that do NOT know that sidespin has NO effect on the tangent line of the CB (until the CB hits a rail). ONLY topspin and draw make the CB curve.<hr /></blockquote>

Scott, I see this in print all of the time and generally agree with it for most medium to fast shots and cut shots but on low speed shots with fullish contact with the object ball I often see the cue ball sort of cling to the object ball and change direction from the tangent line.

Would you say this due to the balls being dirty or am I missing something or just plain hallucinating?

An example would be an object ball hanging centered on the lip of the side pocket with the cue ball about a foot away (parallel with the end rail i.e. a straight shot into the side pocket). If you shoot this as a soft shot with half to three quarter ball hit on the right-hand side of the object ball with lots of left english you can make the cue ball scratch even thought the tanget line leads to the side rail. You wouldnt normally shoot this shot this way but it makes for an easy to see example of a phenomenon I see quite often that contradicts the quote above.

Bob_Jewett
03-25-2005, 05:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr>... An example would be an object ball hanging centered on the lip of the side pocket with the cue ball about a foot away (parallel with the end rail i.e. a straight shot into the side pocket). If you shoot this as a soft shot with half to three quarter ball hit on the right-hand side of the object ball with lots of left english you can make the cue ball scratch even thought the tanget line leads to the side rail. You wouldnt normally shoot this shot this way but it makes for an easy to see example of a phenomenon I see quite often that contradicts the quote above. <hr /></blockquote>
It's not clear from your description whether a soft no-english follow shot would also scratch -- some side pockets are very big. If you put the object ball and cue ball back a diamond from the pocket, can you still hit the object ball 3/4 full and get the cue ball to go straight ahead? My very strong suspicion is that you're not seeing the shot correctly.

theinel
03-25-2005, 09:27 PM
I can't get to a table right now to play with the shot but from what I can remember I can put the object ball on the right side of the pocket where a 3/4 hit with no english would go immediately to the rail and still cause the scratch with just the left. I've got a bad habit of using back hand english and moving my stick at times so maybe I actually end up shooting the ball to the left and not to the right like I think I am. I'll try your suggestion the next time I get to a table. Thanks.