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dmgwalsh
03-25-2005, 08:03 AM
My straight pool game is coming along somewhat. Lately, I've been closing racks out ok and getting what I think is good shapes on a break shot, but I am having problems getting going into the second rack. I'll splatter the balls and have no shot. Or have one shot and not enough to get going again.

Related to that I've been finding myself hooked after taking secondary break shots. Soetimes I've got 3 or 4 balls open around the center or uptable, but it looks like I've got a good opportunity to break the rest up. I take it and end up frozen to a ball or behind what was the rack with no shots.

I imagine exquisite cue ball control or a very precise idea of how the balls will break is what is needed. True? Any ideas on how I can help myself get to that point. Last night I was just hitting and trying to see if i knew where the balls would break to. Is that waht I need?

Tahanks for any input. Dennis

mworkman
03-25-2005, 09:45 AM
What kink of a table do you play on? How fast is the cloth? When I put new cloth on my table it made a big difference because the balls didn't stick together as much and it takes less force to break them up. Other then the obvious of giving yourself more of an angle if you aren't going into the pack hard enough, you should know what part of the ball you are hitting as you go into them if possible depending on how far away you are. The key ball is important so you can be where you need to be on the break shot. I like to be about 45 Degrees or more, allthogh I shoot on a 7' table so making the ball is not as difficult. Good luck

BigRigTom
03-25-2005, 10:21 AM
I would like to hear more advise on this subject also.
I often clear the 1st rack, get position for break but have yet to clear the 2nd rack for similar reasons you are describing.

In the goal to run 100 balls do you start counting from the initial break?
The way I understand the rules for 14:1, you have to call a ball and pocket even on the initial break. To start a run you have to clear the 1st hurdle of making the correct ball in the correct pocket on the initial break...it that correct?

Deeman2
03-25-2005, 11:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> I would like to hear more advise on this subject also.
I often clear the 1st rack, get position for break but have yet to clear the 2nd rack for similar reasons you are describing.

In the goal to run 100 balls do you start counting from the initial break? <font color="blue">You start counting from the first ball you pocket. You could, of course, count a called break shot but this would be very rare and hard to do. </font color>
The way I understand the rules for 14:1, you have to call a ball and pocket even on the initial break. <font color="blue"> Yes, but most play a safety break as the opening shot is very hard to make a called ball. You can bank the corner ball but if you miss, you are toast. </font color> To start a run you have to clear the 1st hurdle of making the correct ball in the correct pocket on the initial break...it that correct? <font color="blue"> No, A run starts as mentioned abov e and continues until you miss or the game is over. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman

SPetty
03-25-2005, 11:38 AM
But he brings up a good point - how do you start playing straight by yourself? If I were going for a higher run, I'd have my pretend opponent blast the pack and then it would be my turn to start. Have some of these high runs in practice started like that?

BigRigTom
03-25-2005, 11:45 AM
Thanks for clarifying that stuff. What happens if you scratch, is that ball in hand? Also when you call a ball and pocket are you allowed to use any combination of balls and rails to pocket the designated ball and is it a foul in cases where you do not make contact with the designated ball. I know these may be sort of stupid questions but I am a 9 ball and 8 ball player and am used to having to hit the object ball 1st. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Rich R.
03-25-2005, 11:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> But he brings up a good point - how do you start playing straight by yourself? If I were going for a higher run, I'd have my pretend opponent blast the pack and then it would be my turn to start. Have some of these high runs in practice started like that? <hr /></blockquote>
In a real game of straight pool, your opponent would never blast the pack. Although in practice, you can make up your own scenario.

For practice purposes, many players rack the balls, then remove the head ball and set up a break shot. This would reflect a game situation, as close as possible.

BTW, don't try to blast the rack apart. In straight pool, you kind of slowly pick the rack apart. Compared to 8-ball and 9-ball, it is a very delicate game.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-25-2005, 12:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> But he brings up a good point - how do you start playing straight by yourself? If I were going for a higher run, I'd have my pretend opponent blast the pack and then it would be my turn to start. Have some of these high runs in practice started like that? <hr /></blockquote>

Possibly. But it is the simplest way to get started.

Personally I don't practice it like that. I do a standard safety break and go from there.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-25-2005, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Thanks for clarifying that stuff. What happens if you scratch, is that ball in hand?

<font color="blue">BIH in the kitchen (behind the head string) </font color>

Also when you call a ball and pocket are you allowed to use any combination of balls and rails to pocket the designated ball

<font color="blue">Yes. </font color>

and is it a foul in cases where you do not make contact with the designated ball.

<font color="blue">No. </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

DickLeonard
03-25-2005, 12:41 PM
DmgWalsh the secret after making the breakshot and your playing open balls, trying to break the rack further is to hit the balls and play position for the open balls up table. Most players play themselves safe while the great players always had an out shot or would billiard the balls so they had another shot.

There are maybe 8 or 10 standard breakshots and keyballs to land on the breakshot. Billiarding balls into that position always gives you a break shot. Leaving the cuebball in the rack always gives you at least cueball in hand.

If you have any questions I will be glad to help you, my grandmother was a Walsh.####

daviddjmp
03-25-2005, 01:01 PM
Hi, Dennis-

I know you have a big collection of 14.1 tapes, but if you don't have Jim Rempe's "How to Run a Rack in Straight Pool", get it because he shows how to play position on most break shots. Rempe tends to never hit the rack too hard, but other players have a different approach, such as Zuglan, Mizerak and Sigel who tend to hit the break shots with enough speed to scatter the balls all over the table. It is always possible to be without a shot after a break shot no matter how well you hit it, though-

theinel
03-25-2005, 05:10 PM
One important technique when making break shots or secondary breaks is to not send the cue on a path directly into the first ball in the stack that it will contact so that the inital contact ball doesn't absorb all of the momentum of the cue ball and leave you stuck on or near an object ball.

If you glance off of the initial contact ball with an angle toward an open area of the table you increase your chances of having another shot. If you have to make a fullish hit on the initial ball in the stack you can use english in the direction you want the object ball to go which will allow the english to accelerate the cue away from the stack.

I am not a great 14.1 player (high run of 52) so take this for what it's worth.

roscoe
03-26-2005, 05:47 AM
Fact is, you can always get into a jam. However, this should not be often if you play it right. There is nothing new in this game, it's a matter of how you play it.

Try this: Set up a break shot and play it with center ball. Then try it with different types of english, different speeds, etc. You will see a totally different break, spread of balls and cue ball travel with each break.

For instance, the classic break with a ball below the rack and the cue ball positioned to pocket the ball into the corner and then hit the back end of the rack. Now, the classic shot is to hit the cue with high inside (toward the foot rail) so it will hit the bottom of the rack and go three rails to the center of the table. Try this different ways and see how screwed up you can be if you use a different hit on the cue.

dmgwalsh
03-26-2005, 06:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> What kink of a table do you play on? Brunswick vip pro 8

How fast is the cloth?
Simonis 860

When I put new cloth on my table it made a big difference because the balls didn't stick together as much and it takes less force to break them up. Other then the obvious of giving yourself more of an angle if you aren't going into the pack hard enough, you should know what part of the ball you are hitting as you go into them if possible depending on how far away you are. The key ball is important so you can be where you need to be on the break shot. I like to be about 45 Degrees or more, allthogh I shoot on a 7' table so making the ball is not as difficult. Good luck <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> </font color> <font color="blue"> </font color> <font color="blue"> </font color>

dmgwalsh
03-26-2005, 06:31 AM
David: yes I have it, and play a lot of the breaks as suggested.draw on some high breaks where cue ball and break ball are even, follow on more angled shot, high right or high left on behind the rack breaks depending upon wher i will impact the rack.

It seems like after the break, I don't have too much to shoot at and run out of options after a few balls.

Also, secondary break shots, sometimes I get stuck with no shapes.

dmgwalsh
03-26-2005, 06:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> DmgWalsh the secret after making the breakshot and your playing open balls, trying to break the rack further is to hit the balls and play position for the open balls up table. Most players play themselves safe while the great players always had an out shot or would billiard the balls so they had another shot.

sometimes I'm using follow going deep into the rack, or from above or straight from the side. sometims I'm using middle on a secondary side of the rail shot and find my cue burrowing into the balls that are left there. No real idea what I will shoot next. and sometimes I get burnt by that.
Are you saying that If i can't billiard a ball open that I perhaps hit the rack in such a way that the cue ball escapes uptable after contact? Maybe at the cost of less scatter?

There are maybe 8 or 10 standard breakshots and keyballs to land on the breakshot. Billiarding balls into that position always gives you a break shot.

Can you show me?

Leaving the cuebball in the rack always gives you at least cueball in hand.

If you have any questions I will be glad to help you, my grandmother was a Walsh.#### <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for the info. Dennis

dmgwalsh
03-26-2005, 06:44 AM
thanks roscoe. I'll trry it.

dmgwalsh
03-26-2005, 06:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr> One important technique when making break shots or secondary breaks is to not send the cue on a path directly into the first ball in the stack that it will contact so that the inital contact ball doesn't absorb all of the momentum of the cue ball and leave you stuck on or near an object ball.

If you glance off of the initial contact ball with an angle toward an open area of the table you increase your chances of having another shot. If you have to make a fullish hit on the initial ball in the stack you can use english in the direction you want the object ball to go which will allow the english to accelerate the cue away from the stack.

I am not a great 14.1 player (high run of 52) so take this for what it's worth. <hr /></blockquote>

Sounds like very good advice on secondary break shots.

Steve Lipsky
03-26-2005, 11:54 AM
Roscoe, I agree with you for many behind-the-rack shots, but one thing to keep in mind is the placement of the object ball. When it is fairly centered behind the rack, inside english is definitely the way to go.

But when the break ball is towards the opposite end of the rack (such that you'll mostly hit either the last ball or even the last two), outside english is preferred. A lot of it, lol. You'll hit the side rail much more parallel, and the outside english will bring you to center table. Using inside from this position - with the cueball travelling more parallel to the rail - will not give you the desired 3-rail-and-out effect. You'll often scratch in the corner pocket closest to where you shot from, and if you don't, you'll get a much flatter 3-rail path that will often lead to an awkward collision at the bottom of the table.

As pretty as the inside-english shot is, I usually like to first look for a behind-the-rack shot closer to the end ball. In my opinion at least, it's a bit more predictable.

- Steve

roscoe
03-26-2005, 03:17 PM
Steve,
While you are right about your scenario I was merely providing an example to the original question; that the cue ball and rack will react differently when you hit it with different english, no english, draw, follow, hard and soft.

The thing to do is try different break shots and remember which works best in a given situation.

Roscoe

tenacjed
03-26-2005, 07:51 PM
straight pool is A to B pool as little cueball movement as possible, for me. I try to never blast the pack completly open to many lose balls make for brutal clusters. I try to play around picking at the pack. I almost always use draw or follow to some extent to make sure I move the cueball away from the pack upon breaking something out. And rarely ever hit anything hard it ain't 9 ball.

HallofFame
03-27-2005, 12:41 PM
Hi,

DeadAim here,

We never discussed this at AZ but getting snookered is just a fact of playing pool; however, you can limit your liability.

This is why many great 14.1 players like to break into the top of the pack, the cue ball stays at middle table.

Going into the side of the pack breaks the balls AWAY from you, sort of like one pocket; just something else that can go wrong.

Conditions mean a lot when going into the pack; what's the weather like, what about the table, are the balls breaking apart easy or hard.

Watch Rempe's "How to run a rack" video, pay attention to his breaking of clusters; he's a master at this. If you break into a cluster and do not get a shot you had BAD cue ball control and didn't hit the object ball correctely.

Sometimes you cannot always have an insurance ball so you take the best PERCENTAGE chance of getting a shot.

Generally speaking, always try to get back to the middle of the table.

If you follow the basic principles of 14.1 you should have a shot; of course, the balls DO NOT always cooperate with you.

Try for high cue ball breaks where you go into the side of the pack and actually chew through the rack; or, double kisses the rack. I found these type of break shots have better results than drawing the ball up towards the head rail.

For a "Player", most runs will end with a snooker of some sort; a few will end on a missed shot, usually this is a difficult shot. Of course, some runs will end with a safe; this is the way a run should end; you do not want to miss easy shots, if you get a bad roll that's just the way it goes.

The most important thing is to stay CALM, RELAX, and do not let a bad roll bother you; remember what Irving Crane said: "there is always a shot in the rack if you look hard enough".

HOF aka DeadAim

Bob_Jewett
03-27-2005, 08:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmgwalsh:</font><hr> ...I am having problems getting going into the second rack. I'll splatter the balls and have no shot. Or have one shot and not enough to get going again.
... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, for a change of pace, you could break "European Style." I first saw this at the New Jersey State Championships, which Thorsten Hohmann won. He ran 404 balls when he was 22, so maybe his technique can work. When breaking the top of the rack (standard break shot, but the break ball is a little high), play with draw. Usually the problem with that is that the cue ball will draw up to the head rail and stop. Hohmann avoids that by hitting hard enough that the cue ball comes off the head rail back to the center of the table. His goal seems to be to leave no two balls within six inches of each other. When it works, the rack is easy.

On the other hand, I saw him scratch twice when he broke on the bottom two balls -- the cue ball went straight into the corner just after the object ball.

dmgwalsh
03-28-2005, 08:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HallofFame:</font><hr> Hi,

DeadAim here,

We never discussed this at AZ but getting snookered is just a fact of playing pool; however, you can limit your liability.

This is why many great 14.1 players like to break into the top of the pack, the cue ball stays at middle table.

Going into the side of the pack breaks the balls AWAY from you, sort of like one pocket; just something else that can go wrong.

Conditions mean a lot when going into the pack; what's the weather like, what about the table, are the balls breaking apart easy or hard.

Watch Rempe's "How to run a rack" video, pay attention to his breaking of clusters; he's a master at this. If you break into a cluster and do not get a shot you had BAD cue ball control and didn't hit the object ball correctely.

Sometimes you cannot always have an insurance ball so you take the best PERCENTAGE chance of getting a shot.

Generally speaking, always try to get back to the middle of the table.

If you follow the basic principles of 14.1 you should have a shot; of course, the balls DO NOT always cooperate with you.

Try for high cue ball breaks where you go into the side of the pack and actually chew through the rack; or, double kisses the rack. I found these type of break shots have better results than drawing the ball up towards the head rail.

For a "Player", most runs will end with a snooker of some sort; a few will end on a missed shot, usually this is a difficult shot. Of course, some runs will end with a safe; this is the way a run should end; you do not want to miss easy shots, if you get a bad roll that's just the way it goes.

The most important thing is to stay CALM, RELAX, and do not let a bad roll bother you; remember what Irving Crane said: "there is always a shot in the rack if you look hard enough".

HOF aka DeadAim <hr /></blockquote>

DeadAim: Nice to hear from you again. Are you still raining 100s with Rempe?

I rewatched the Rempe How to run a rack tape this weekend and tried his not hit the rail drill several times, amongst other things. He almost always has a key ball when breaking up clusters. only once, did I notice that he did not, and that's when he explained that when you don't have one, you have your best chance by getting the cue in the middle of the table.

my high this weekend, 19 on Saturday, 19 and 25 on Sunday.

What exactly do you mean by these high cue rack breaks where cue ball chews through? I thought if you are in a straight line with object ball, force draw to middle of the table, and if you have an angle, follow.

Thanks for the help. Dennis

dmgwalsh
03-28-2005, 08:09 AM
When breaking the top of the rack (standard break shot, but the break ball is a little high), play with draw. Usually the problem with that is that the cue ball will draw up to the head rail and stop. Hohmann avoids that by hitting hard enough that the cue ball comes off the head rail back to the center of the table. His goal seems to be to leave no two balls within six inches of each other. When it works, the rack is easy.

does that mean even if you have an angle, don't follow because you may lose the cue ball? draw hard all the way back and then some?

Thanks. Dennis

HallofFame
03-28-2005, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmgwalsh:</font><hr> When breaking the top of the rack (standard break shot, but the break ball is a little high), play with draw. Usually the problem with that is that the cue ball will draw up to the head rail and stop. Hohmann avoids that by hitting hard enough that the cue ball comes off the head rail back to the center of the table. His goal seems to be to leave no two balls within six inches of each other. When it works, the rack is easy.

does that mean even if you have an angle, don't follow because you may lose the cue ball? draw hard all the way back and then some?

Thanks. Dennis <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Dennis,

Okay, Jimmy's first break shot on his tape is what I mean by "high cue ball hit". This is the break where the cue ball is closer to the long rail then the break ball.

I believe what Bob is talking about is shown on Sigel's "Perfect Pool" tape where you slide off the top two balls of the pack and return to the middle of the table.

Do you have Mike's tape? Jimmy spends time running racks where Mike shows more styles of break shots. I'll PM you at AZ, if you don't have Mike's tape I'll send you a copy.

JR

PQQLK9
03-28-2005, 10:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HallofFame:</font><hr>
Do you have Mike's tape? Jimmy spends time running racks where Mike shows more styles of break shots. I'll PM you at AZ, if you don't have Mike's tape I'll send you a copy.

JR <hr /></blockquote>

That is true for Mike's "Perfect Straight Pool Tape" but in his "Run Out Straight Pool" tape he runs over a hundred balls. (105) IIRC .

If you would like a copy I will send you one.

Bob_Jewett
03-28-2005, 11:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HallofFame:</font><hr>...
I believe what Bob is talking about is shown on Sigel's "Perfect Pool" tape where you slide off the top two balls of the pack and return to the middle of the table.

...<hr /></blockquote>

No, Hohmann hits the break shot in ways the top US players would never, ever try. I don't mean to thud the cue ball will a little draw off the top two balls of the rack to get it to the center spot. I really do mean draw it WITH POWER!!! clear back to the head rail and then bounce four diamonds back to between the side pockets.

Of course, if your pocketing accuracy breaks down when you hit the ball hard, your opponent is going to be delighted when you use this strategy. Hohmann, when asked about the accuracy issue, basically said, "I'm not going to miss that shot." And I never saw him miss one.

HallofFame
03-28-2005, 01:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote HallofFame:</font><hr>...
I believe what Bob is talking about is shown on Sigel's "Perfect Pool" tape where you slide off the top two balls of the pack and return to the middle of the table.

...<hr /></blockquote>

No, Hohmann hits the break shot in ways the top US players would never, ever try. I don't mean to thud the cue ball will a little draw off the top two balls of the rack to get it to the center spot. I really do mean draw it WITH POWER!!! clear back to the head rail and then bounce four diamonds back to between the side pockets.

Of course, if your pocketing accuracy breaks down when you hit the ball hard, your opponent is going to be delighted when you use this strategy. Hohmann, when asked about the accuracy issue, basically said, "I'm not going to miss that shot." And I never saw him miss one. <hr /></blockquote>

Yes Bob,

That is a good shot. Sometimes I prefer to really force the issue if I'm in dead stroke and hit the "draw break" with lots of power to come back down table after hitting the head rail. But only on certain shots, I REALLY want to make sure I'm hitting the "round of the ball" on the top side so I don't rip the cue into the corner pocket.

JR

Rod
03-28-2005, 05:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, I saw him scratch twice when he broke on the bottom two balls -- the cue ball went straight into the corner just after the object ball. <hr /></blockquote>

It's hard to percive that one who can run so many balls would scratch on the last two. I mean if he drew the ball, which seems obvious, thats the only way you could scratch. Maybe I missed something, it's not a draw shot maybe a tip of follow max.

Rod

Williebetmore
03-28-2005, 07:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
Personally I don't practice it like that. I do a standard safety break and go from there. <hr /></blockquote>

Wally,
BRAVO!! I also practice like that; though I have given up counting runs except during competition - practice and competition are just totally different games for me. A high run during competition is much more meaningful to me than a practice run started with "blasting" a rack apart (isn't that really just a "free 14 ball headstart"?).

Williebetmore
03-28-2005, 07:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> play with draw. Usually the problem with that is that the cue ball will draw up to the head rail and stop. Hohmann avoids that by hitting hard enough that the cue ball comes off the head rail back to the center of the table. <hr /></blockquote>

Bob,
On an Accu-Stats tape this type of break is described, and the commentator reported that Gene Nagy favored this strategy. I have tried it many times with fairly good success. In a lesson with Danny DiLiberto, Danny mentioned to "never" draw back past center table. I asked if there was ever a situation where you would want to draw strongly back to the head rail and back towards center table. He replied, "Sure there's a time - whenever you quit liking money." Old traditions die hard. Just a funny story; I have no idea what's "best."

Bob_Jewett
03-28-2005, 08:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
On the other hand, I saw him scratch twice when he broke on the bottom two balls -- the cue ball went straight into the corner just after the object ball. <hr /></blockquote>

It's hard to percive that one who can run so many balls would scratch on the last two. I mean if he drew the ball, which seems obvious, thats the only way you could scratch. Maybe I missed something, it's not a draw shot maybe a tip of follow max.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>
I was startled by the scratches as well, but the cue ball was going fast enough that the draw or follow (especially on the new cloth of that tournament) had not much chance to take. Remember: "no two balls within six inches of each other."

Bob_Jewett
03-28-2005, 08:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Williebetmore:</font><hr>... Old traditions die hard. Just a funny story; I have no idea what's "best." <hr /></blockquote>
All I know is when I crank up the speed that high, the object ball either remains on the table or leaps onto the floor. Well, more often than with the orthodox break shot, anyway.