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kenz54
04-03-2005, 06:53 PM
Hi guys...
I just wondered what is the principle behind a squirtless shaft. I just started experimenting with a schuler squirtless shaft (second generation squirtles) and I was pretty impressed with it. I have several schuler shafts but, so far, I am pretty impressed with the squirtless one. Stay turned for more testing! lol

Cueless Joey
04-03-2005, 10:20 PM
Squirtless?
Impossible I think.

Bob_Jewett
04-03-2005, 11:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Squirtless?
Impossible I think. <hr /></blockquote>
It is not impossible if the cue stick has moving parts.

When I first used a relatively low-squirt cue after having used the other kind for a while, I thought the cue actually made the cue ball cross over the line of the stick, which would have been negative squirt, if I had known what squirt was at the time. In fact, I was so used to the squirty stick that my perception of the line of aim was completely off. So, I'm not surprised that someone might think that a stick was squirtless.

JimS
04-04-2005, 03:43 AM
Has anybody tried the Universal shaft, The one with the interchangable joint? Perhaps needs a dedicated thread.

Fred Agnir
04-04-2005, 06:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> Has anybody tried the Universal shaft, The one with the interchangable joint? Perhaps needs a dedicated thread. <hr /></blockquote>The Universal Shaft has two flavors: regular and low squirt.

They claim to use piezo-electric technology to reduce vibration. I personally would need a little more information on where they are using it. They've done other things that reduce the vibration, but I can't believe that it's the piezo crystal. I'm no expert in piezo-electric vibration, but I do have a working knowledge.

That being said, they're low squirt shaft works as advertised, and it feels like a normal hitting shaft as opposed to some of the other low squirt shafts.

The regular shaft is also a big winner, as I tried it screwed onto a low end Far East cue, and it felt very low in the vibration.

Fred

SPetty
04-04-2005, 06:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> Has anybody tried the Universal shaft, The one with the interchangable joint?<hr /></blockquote>Sounds interesting. Does anyone have a link?

kenz54
04-04-2005, 07:11 AM
I was not meaning to mislead anyone. Schuler has an "sq" code on the shaft for squirtless but I am aware there is no such thing. Rather, I realize it signifies a "low squirt" shaft. What I wondered is....how does a low squirt shaft differ technically from a regular shaft...and what is the advantage and disadvantage of it. Sorry about the confusion.

dr_dave
04-04-2005, 08:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> Has anybody tried the Universal shaft, The one with the interchangable joint? Perhaps needs a dedicated thread. <hr /></blockquote>The Universal Shaft has two flavors: regular and low squirt.

They claim to use piezo-electric technology to reduce vibration. I personally would need a little more information on where they are using it. They've done other things that reduce the vibration, but I can't believe that it's the piezo crystal. I'm no expert in piezo-electric vibration, but I do have a working knowledge.<hr /></blockquote>
Being from Colorado, I have also seen snow skis that use this principle. The demo I saw showed two identical skis, one with two piezoelectric patterns strategically placed on the ski. When the skis were flexed and released, one vibrated as you would expect ("boing"), but the other exhibited practically no vibration ("thud").

The way it works is that one piezo unit outputs a voltage when it starts to extend, and this voltage is tied to the other piezo unit causing it to contract (if applied with the opposite polarity). The net result is damped vibration. No batteries required ... its all passive. Pretty amazing.

Dr. Dave

Scott Lee
04-04-2005, 09:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
Being from Colorado, I have also seen snow skis that use this principle. The demo I saw showed two identical skis, one with two piezoelectric patterns strategically placed on the ski. When the skis were flexed and released, one vibrated as you would expect ("boing"), but the other exhibited practically no vibration ("thud").

The way it works is that one piezo unit outputs a voltage when it starts to extend, and this voltage is tied to the other piezo unit causing it to contract (if applied with the opposite polarity). The net result is damped vibration. No batteries required ... its all passive. Pretty amazing.

Dr. Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Dr. Dave...As a skier myself, I am interested in this technology. Can you give me some brand names, and perhaps models that utilize this construction process? Did you see this in a ski show, a ski shop, or read about it in one of the ski mags?

As far as a cue shaft, this sounds much more interesting than the 'standard' "low-squirt/less deflection" shafts being made by Predator, et al. I wonder what you get if you combine this new shaft with the vibration-dampening device you screw on the butt end of the cue?

Scott Lee

Billy_Bob
04-04-2005, 09:12 AM
Oregon cue maker Sheldon Lebow made a no (or very low) squirt cue. I tried it and the cue ball, when using english, went to the far rail to the same exact place as a center hit. The way he made the cue was to make a very small tip size (and thus low mass at the tip.)

I am no robot, so my testing was not very scientific.

Also due to the small size of the shaft, it would not be very good to play with such a cue. Any hard shot would probably break the shaft. But it was fun to play around with.

FYI - Here is his web site...
(Don't know if this cue is mentioned on his site...)
http://www.sheldoncue.com

dr_dave
04-04-2005, 09:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Dr. Dave...As a skier myself, I am interested in this technology. Can you give me some brand names, and perhaps models that utilize this construction process? Did you see this in a ski show, a ski shop, or read about it in one of the ski mags?<hr /></blockquote>
I actually saw the ski piezo technology at an engineering design show about 10 years ago. Unfortunately, I don't remember the name of the company, and I haven't seen it since. Sometimes gimmicky things like this take and sometimes they don't. There might have been problems with reliability with the piezos with all of the abuse that skis take.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>As far as a cue shaft, this sounds much more interesting than the 'standard' "low-squirt/less deflection" shafts being made by Predator, et al. I wonder what you get if you combine this new shaft with the vibration-dampening device you screw on the butt end of the cue?<hr /></blockquote>
I don't have experience with the Universal shaft, but I look forward to hearing from others that do.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
04-04-2005, 09:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote kenz54:</font><hr>I just wondered what is the principle behind a squirtless shaft.<hr /></blockquote>
There have been several threads discussing squirt effects. You can find links to some of them under "English deflection (squirt)" in the threads summary area (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html) of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/).

Regards,
Dr. Dave

ras314
04-04-2005, 09:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>
It is not impossible if the cue stick has moving parts.
<hr /></blockquote>
That gives me the image of a hinged cue tip. No squirt because the tip flips away. And no cb movement either. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I wouldn't expect vibration damping to have much effect on squirt. If the spring mass system represented by the tip mass and the "stiffness" of the shaft was underdamped then the tip would move further sideways than if it was overdamped. The under damped tip would also vibrate. Probably feel like a "buzz". I suspect the vibration or natural frequency of the shaft/tip is low enough that the cb usually has time to move away from the tip. Decreasing that frequency would allow a more "flexible" and/or less mass tip to move away from the cb without the double hit foul.

I think I need more sleep, I'm getting myself confused. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

BlindPlayer
04-04-2005, 10:51 AM
One writer said the cue ball hit the target spot on the rail and assumed there was no squirt. That's not scientific enough because if the ball squirted undetected by the human eye, the english could correct the CB back to it's original line of sight path and hit the target spot on the rail. It may have appeared to have gone "squirtless" but not necessarily so.

Gotta see Dr. Dave on this one and maybe some slow-mo photography.

Pizza Bob
04-04-2005, 03:38 PM
I don't believe that this shaft works the same way as the skis do. Here is a quote from Bill Stroud:

&lt;&lt;The material I use in my design consists of graphite fibers aligned in a longitudinal manner. They are then bonded in a viscous elastic medium. No additional power is required. The material will generate electricity from
mechanical energy itself. When this happens the material stiffens at a sub atomic level momentarily.&gt;&gt;

I believe that this works the way the state-of-the-art active suspensions on automobiles do. The "viscous elastic medium" to which he refers is magneto-rheological. It changes viscosity when an electrical current is passed through it - in both instances, providing a damping effect. The electric current is generated by the piezo effect when the tip contacts the ball.

As pointed out, this fancy technology is aimed at dampening felt vibration, not lessening squirt. Other technologies are used to lessen that effect, and as Fred said, there is a regular and a low-squirt (laminated - wedge, I believe) version, both employing the dampening feature.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

N8ball
04-04-2005, 04:21 PM
Although no shaft is truely squirtless, the one i play with is squirtless enough that the squirt it does have is not enough for me to miss a table length shot with. www.yakcues.com (http://www.yakcues.com) (its under the XD shaft) I started playing with this shaft about......4 months ago and it is just incredible to me. I had played with traditional shafts up untill maybe 7 months ago, when i got a schon/314. I loved that and it helped my game and then I found this thing. Its the spruce XD shaft and is very delicate, and VERY light. I bought my cue as a 19.5 and it is now down to 18.16 with that shaft. Lots of people arent into the whole low deflection thing, but for those who are...this shaft really raised my eyebrows. I guess the way it works is something with harmonics? in all honesty i have no clue HOW it works, just that it is based on vibrations and balance. Its over my head but I shoot well with it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Nate

JimS
04-05-2005, 04:05 AM
Does less vibration read less "feel"?

It seems to me that the "feel" I experience when I stroke and strike the cue ball tells me, via vibrations, how I hit the cb. So it follows that reduced vibrations would be reduced information that I would have to process how I hit the shot.

Am I wrong here? How? Need help understanding how less vibration is necessairly a good thing.

Rich R.
04-05-2005, 06:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> Does less vibration read less "feel"?

It seems to me that the "feel" I experience when I stroke and strike the cue ball tells me, via vibrations, how I hit the cb. So it follows that reduced vibrations would be reduced information that I would have to process how I hit the shot.

Am I wrong here? How? Need help understanding how less vibration is necessairly a good thing. <hr /></blockquote>
Jim, I feel the same as you, in regard to the vibration.
As a non-tech person, I believe that all vibrations are not created equal and there are good vibrations and bad vibrations, but, IMHO, to cut out all vibrations would certainly reduce the feel (feedback) you get from the cue.

Fred Agnir
04-05-2005, 06:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> Does less vibration read less "feel"?

It seems to me that the "feel" I experience when I stroke and strike the cue ball tells me, via vibrations, how I hit the cb. So it follows that reduced vibrations would be reduced information that I would have to process how I hit the shot.

Am I wrong here? How? Need help understanding how less vibration is necessairly a good thing. <hr /></blockquote>It's definitely personal taste. Some people want less feedback from their cue. Some want more. I only want to hear the cue tip hitting the cue ball.


For me, I don't want to feel the cue. I.e., I don't want it to be a distraction. I get enough feedback from the shot based on the cue ball, object ball, and pocket sound. Those are what matter to me as they change from table to table. The cue, IMO, should be as constant as possible over the range of hit. That's what many cue manufacturers are after (Schuler, Lambros, Layani, Stroud)in their joint/shaft design.

Fred

JimS
04-05-2005, 07:34 AM
I have to admit I'm really surprised to hear that Fred. No judgement...just surprised as I'd always taken the existance of cue vibration as a given and then went for a cue whose particular vibration fitted my likes.

My South West, Sailor and Blackheart cues all provide this "feel" and the more the better....imo.

I guess that's also why I like hard tips. I like the feel and the sound. These factors confrim what I see. The feel, and the sound, will tell me what happened when I have a problem with a shot and have trouble isloating the genesis of that problem.

So....my question regarding; do I want to check out the Universal shaft?" is answered. Since it reduces vibration it wouldn't increase my skill or enjoyment of the game.

But....maybe it would be handy/fun to have a Universal shaft with adaptors for each of the cues I like to use. It would be interesting to see how each butt played/felt using the same shaft throughout.

SPetty
04-05-2005, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Pizza Bob:</font><hr> I don't believe that this shaft works the same way as the skis do. Here is a quote from Bill Stroud:<hr /></blockquote>So is Bill Stroud making the Universal shaft? Where can I get more information on the Universal shaft?

Rich R.
04-05-2005, 10:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> Where can I get more information on the Universal shaft? <hr /></blockquote>
Go to page 23 of the March InsidePool, if you received your copy.

JimS
04-05-2005, 10:56 AM
No web site shown in their ad. 800-835-7665

Features:

Vibration dampening shaft materials.

Dyna-flex ferrule to help absorb shock at impact.

Adpaptor that screws into the joint so any type joint screw can be used in the shaft.

Billy_Bob
04-05-2005, 11:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BlindPlayer:</font><hr> One writer said the cue ball hit the target spot on the rail and assumed there was no squirt. That's not scientific enough because if the ball squirted undetected by the human eye, the english could correct the CB back to it's original line of sight path and hit the target spot on the rail. It may have appeared to have gone "squirtless" but not necessarily so.<hr /></blockquote>

Well so far as I am concerned, if the cue ball goes where I am aiming, that is good enough for me.

I have a Predator 314 shaft and I can get the cue ball to go to the same spot on the far rail using english as with a center hit. [by moving just my front hand for english.]

I can't do this with my other cues. The ball will hit anywhere from 1 to 3 inches off target.

So I aim and shoot using english and the ball goes where I want - to a predictable location. I'm happy with that. Actually more than happy! I now have accurate "cue ball steering"...

SPetty
04-05-2005, 11:03 AM
Thanks, Rich.

SPetty
04-05-2005, 11:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> So is Bill Stroud making the Universal shaft? <hr /></blockquote>Answer from Pizza Bob via Barbara:

Bill Stroud designed it and is helping in the marketing. Not sure where it is being produced, but it is being distributed through Atlas Billiard Supply, I think.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

Voodoo Daddy
04-06-2005, 02:10 PM
I'm not trying to be the dick most of you think I am but when is it enough? When does the technology stuff end? What happened to picking a cue off the wall and running out? I wonder if Lassiter, Crane, Balsis or countless others thought their shafts where squirting too much? Or did they compensate for the shortcomings of a man-made substance and just play? Just wondering...

Barbara
04-06-2005, 03:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> I'm not trying to be the dick most of you think I am but when is it enough? When does the technology stuff end? What happened to picking a cue off the wall and running out? I wonder if Lassiter, Crane, Balsis or countless others thought their shafts where squirting too much? Or did they compensate for the shortcomings of a man-made substance and just play? Just wondering... <hr /></blockquote>

Tap!! Tap!! Tap!!

Barbara

Bob_Jewett
04-06-2005, 05:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> ... When does the technology stuff end? ... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, I'd agree with you on jump cues. Lassiter, Crane, Balsis, ... never pulled out a dinky little rod with a tip made of diamond. I think they would have been ashamed to. And with the technology "improvement," people who worked to have a good jump shot with a full cue lost their advantage. Any fool can jump now.

JimS
04-07-2005, 05:49 AM
Let's bring back rag padded cushions, the curved end mace, smoothed rocks for balls and while we're at it hickory shafts for golf clubs. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif What a bunch of old farts we've become. Why back in MY day..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Scott Lee
04-07-2005, 11:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BlindPlayer:</font><hr> One writer said the cue ball hit the target spot on the rail and assumed there was no squirt. That's not scientific enough because if the ball squirted undetected by the human eye, the english could correct the CB back to it's original line of sight path and hit the target spot on the rail. It may have appeared to have gone "squirtless" but not necessarily so.

Gotta see Dr. Dave on this one and maybe some slow-mo photography. <hr /></blockquote>

BlindPlayer...That is not true. With just sidespin, the CB will NOT curve back across that straight line. The only way that could happen, is if you added topspin or draw, or elevated the cuestick to some kind of full or partial masse.
If the poster thought that the CB did not deflect off the line (because of this particular design shaft), they were likely either, 1)not shooting with even a half tip of english, or 2)they shot so soft (lag speed for example) that there was minimal deflection off of the line the CB was shot on.

Part of the confusion in this argument, is that most people do not understand the difference between CB deflection and cuestick deflection (which is the underlying concept of Predator, etc.)! This type of shaft technology is designed to deal with cuestick defection (even though that's not the way they market it). JMO, as many folks love this kind of technology!

Scott Lee