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Fred Agnir
04-04-2005, 06:37 AM
I just wanted to pass on a little experience to those that might find it illuminating.

On many of the "7 ft. vs. 9 ft." discussions, I'm always on the side of "neither is easier." I still stand by that and even moreso.

Scott Lee normally will chime in with "the table size doesn't matter, it's the stroke." Well, there's a lot being said there, and IMO, unless you take lessons with a BCA Instructor, I think many people will not completely understand this simple answer. In fact, I've taken BCA instructions and Scott's point didn't really hit home until yesterday.

I took lessons a few summers ago with RandyG as his school traveled up to New England. As many of you will read from the Goettlicher and BCA instructor desciples, the Set Pause Finish concept is a point they drive home.

Anyhoos, I've been playing almost exclusively bar table leagues and tournaments lately. Bar tables take a different discipline and a different focus, IMO (patterns and paths) and as a result, shotmaking can get loose. Switching up to a 9' tight table tournament, without that recognition of the difference can make people simply quit the game, owing it to the difficulty of 9' tables.

So, I started my practice shooting, and quickly jarred every shot. I noticed that the cueball had some spin on it, so I deduced that I wasn't hitting the cueball where I wanted. What to do? Check my mechanics. Check my baseline. Set Pause Finish. Ensure I'm hitting the ball where I intend. Deliver the cue. Transfer that energy. Lather rinse, repeat. Make balls. In the center. Get confidence up. Win tournament. Collect cash.

Fred <~~~ thanks Randy

SplinterHands
04-04-2005, 07:06 AM
A 7 foot table play easier than a 9 footer. There is no argument here and stroke doesn't matter. It's knowledge of the game that separates the cream of the crop. There's been countless times where I've seen a horrible stroking player run out on a bar table, who couldn't run 3 balls on a 9 footer. Playing in a race to 1 bar-box 8-ball tournament is like a nightmare.

Fred Agnir
04-04-2005, 07:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> A 7 foot table play easier than a 9 footer. There is no argument here and stroke doesn't matter. <hr /></blockquote> Stroke doesn't matter??? I think you missed the entire point of the post. I find that once my stroke is in tune, running 8-ball on a 9' table is easier. And these were tight Connelly home tables.

[ QUOTE ]
It's knowledge of the game that separates the cream of the crop. There's been countless times where I've seen a horrible stroking player run out on a bar table, who couldn't run 3 balls on a 9 footer. Playing in a race to 1 bar-box 8-ball tournament is like a nightmare. <hr /></blockquote> You're obviously talking about a different set of players and a different arena of bar pool.

Fred

Barbara
04-04-2005, 07:33 AM
Fred,

That was the best money I ever spent! Adn I'd do it again this summer, but I have an event the weekend he'll be in town.

Barbara

Scott Lee
04-04-2005, 09:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Scott Lee normally will chime in with "the table size doesn't matter, it's the stroke." Well, there's a lot being said there, and IMO, unless you take lessons with a BCA Instructor, I think many people will not completely understand this simple answer. In fact, I've taken BCA instructions and Scott's point didn't really hit home until yesterday.

I took lessons a few summers ago with RandyG as his school traveled up to New England. As many of you will read from the Goettlicher and BCA instructor desciples, the Set Pause Finish concept is a point they drive home.

Fred &lt;~~~ thanks Randy <hr /></blockquote>

Ding Ding Ding /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Fred...It is the "finish" aspect that is the most critical part of the s/p/f process (although all three are necessarily relevant). As you correctly described your own diagnosis (which is one of the goals of the school), one needs to establish (or re-establish) the 'baseline' swing...which is full range of motion along a pinned elbow... before the speed control exercise gains relevance to pocketing balls and securing position on the next shots. By returning to the 'ingrained' spf process you learned from Randy, you were able to 'dial-in' quickly to a repeatable, consistent stroke! Congrats on your win!

Scott Lee

LARRY_BOY
04-04-2005, 11:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I just wanted to pass on a little experience to those that might find it illuminating.

On many of the "7 ft. vs. 9 ft." discussions, I'm always on the side of "neither is easier." I still stand by that and even moreso.

Scott Lee normally will chime in with "the table size doesn't matter, it's the stroke." Well, there's a lot being said there, and IMO, unless you take lessons with a BCA Instructor, I think many people will not completely understand this simple answer. In fact, I've taken BCA instructions and Scott's point didn't really hit home until yesterday.

I took lessons a few summers ago with RandyG as his school traveled up to New England. As many of you will read from the Goettlicher and BCA instructor desciples, the Set Pause Finish concept is a point they drive home.

Anyhoos, I've been playing almost exclusively bar table leagues and tournaments lately. Bar tables take a different discipline and a different focus, IMO (patterns and paths) and as a result, shotmaking can get loose. Switching up to a 9' tight table tournament, without that recognition of the difference can make people simply quit the game, owing it to the difficulty of 9' tables.

So, I started my practice shooting, and quickly jarred every shot. I noticed that the cueball had some spin on it, so I deduced that I wasn't hitting the cueball where I wanted. What to do? Check my mechanics. Check my baseline. Set Pause Finish. Ensure I'm hitting the ball where I intend. Deliver the cue. Transfer that energy. Lather rinse, repeat. Make balls. In the center. Get confidence up. Win tournament. Collect cash.

Fred &lt;~~~ thanks Randy <hr /></blockquote>

After reading your posts latley I think I am going to start calling you "the voice of reason". You seem to bring it all together in one nice neat package.....how long have you been playing pool?

Fred Agnir
04-04-2005, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LARRY_BOY:</font><hr> After reading your posts latley I think I am going to start calling you "the voice of reason". You seem to bring it all together in one nice neat package.....how long have you been playing pool? <hr /></blockquote>Don't you worry, LARRY_BOY. Sooner or later, I'll piss you off, too. It's only a matter of time ;-)

Let's see, I guess I've been playing competitively for a little over 20 years. It might be some pre-cognitive thing, but I started getting into pool just a couple of years before the Color of Money came out.

Fred

randyg
04-04-2005, 04:35 PM
Thanks Fred. Still my hero.....SPF-randyg

randyg
04-04-2005, 05:58 PM
Hi Barbara: Our time will come!.....SPF-randyg

pooltchr
04-04-2005, 06:03 PM
Fred,
I just finished spending 3 days in Dallas with Randy and Jerry. If you think the first time helped, you should think about going back for the expert class! I'm still amazed at some of the things they had me doing that I would have bet good money were impossible.
Last class I worked with Randy made my game jump about 2 or 3 levels...I expect even better results this time!
Thanks Randy and Jerry!

recoveryjones
04-04-2005, 08:57 PM
I agree with you Fred that neither is easier.They are both different and it's like comparing oranges to apples.

In my opinion potting balls to the corner pockets on 7 ft tables is an easier task than on 9 ft tables.The pockets on 7 ft tables seem to be much more forgiving and the 9ft table of course offers up many more longer shots which also can make potting more difficult.Side pockets on the other hand on 7 ft tables can be very difficult and should be avoided if there are corner pocket options available.

The 7ft table is much more congested as far as possible shape routes are concerned and the better players can utilize the non-congested areas on a 9footer to his advantage.

Each table gives and takes as far as difficulty aspects are concerned. RJ

nhp
04-04-2005, 11:01 PM
I used to think playing on barboxes was ALOT easier than 9 footers, until Scott told me something about a year ago that really opened my eyes. On a barbox you are still using normal sized object balls, and usually the pockets are alot bigger, but you have less space to play on. That means you still need very good cueball control so you don't hook yourself. Plus, with the smaller table and bigger pockets, it's easier to scratch. I agree that if you have a good stroke and cueball control it won't matter that much.

jjinfla
04-05-2005, 04:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I find that once my stroke is in tune, running 8-ball on a 9' table is easier. Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred, The 9 footers here use red circle, the cloth and balls are clean. The bar tables (8 foot Valleys) have a different weight CB on each table (rocks), cloth and balls are dirty. So yes, I prefer the 9 footers, even though there are no long shots on a bar table. Jake

catscradle
04-05-2005, 04:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Thanks Fred. Still my hero.....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Fred makes the 2nd person I highly respect to chime in recently about the quality of your instruction. It helps to reinforce a decision I'd already made, see you in July.

catscradle
04-05-2005, 05:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I just wanted to pass on a little experience to those that might find it illuminating.

On many of the "7 ft. vs. 9 ft." discussions, I'm always on the side of "neither is easier." I still stand by that and even moreso.

<hr /></blockquote>

Somebody I was talking to recently said that Grady Matthews had made the statement (on a instructional tape) that he thought today's players were better players because they had to play on a 9 foot more congested table. He claimed that yesterday's players playing on 10 footers had much more room to manuever than on a 9 footer and. Because the ball pocketing skills of a pro are so high the difference in size didn't adversely effect their ball pocketing success.
That would seem to lean credence to your point.

littleCajun
04-05-2005, 06:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Fred,
I just finished spending 3 days in Dallas with Randy and Jerry. If you think the first time helped, you should think about going back for the expert class! I'm still amazed at some of the things they had me doing that I would have bet good money were impossible.
Last class I worked with Randy made my game jump about 2 or 3 levels...I expect even better results this time!
Thanks Randy and Jerry! <hr /></blockquote>

pooltchr,
How do like sam now?

pooltchr
04-05-2005, 08:10 AM
I like SAM now. Give me a couple of weeks to let it become a natural habit, and I suspect I will LOVE it!
Steve

Barbara
04-05-2005, 08:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> I like SAM now. Give me a couple of weeks to let it become a natural habit, and I suspect I will LOVE it!
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

What's SAM?

Barbara

pooltchr
04-05-2005, 09:33 AM
Supplimental Aiming Method.

Time to go back to school. You are going to love it!!!
Steve

Cane
04-05-2005, 02:51 PM
Steve,
Meant to email you, but I'm too tired to look up the address, so I'll do it here. It was great to meet you in Dallas. And ME, Being a grouchy old b@$tard, I don't say that to many people! *S* I enjoyed it so much, that I may tag along with Randy G on the Road Show to Charlotte when you get it set up! You took to SAM like a duck to water! Amazing what you can do with something so simple, isn't it... SAM is all that I use... does it work? Well, last night in an our 8-Ball league, I broke 4 times and three of them were break and runs. Not all of them were clear racks... one of them I had two major clusters that I HAD to move to get the run from break. Using nothing but SAM and a good stroke and the knowledge of how to nail down my tangent lines with SAM. On the first break and run, I made two balls, but the only shot I had was a 3 ball combination... not the hardest of combinations, but no "gimme". Nailed it and ran out... Throughout the night's 8 games, I shot combinations, caroms and bank shots with ease (Steve, do I like to bank, or what? LOL). All using an SPF stroke and SAM. Am I a believer? YOU BETCHA!!!

As for those that think a professional player would be a better choice to learn from than a professional instructor... well, lets just say that if you look on the BCA Masters list and on the UPA Roster, and on the WPBA Roster, you'll find a lot of Randy Goettlicher's Students on there... The professionals apparently think a professional instructor is a very valuable tool... or maybe even an ESSENTIAL tool.

Spetty, I was shocked to see you when Steve and I walked into Clicks. Shocked but pleased, and I'm looking forward to the Chili Cook-Off. Glad I got to see you and meet your friends! I was in Hug Heaven before I got out of there at midnight!

Fred, You said in simple terms exactly what we try to teach the SPF students. SPF isn't only a great way to play, it's the best diagnostic tool that ever came along. A player that is taught a proper SPF stroke can instantly diagnose what is wrong and FIX it. I'm glad you had it at your disposal when you needed it... congratulations.

In any case, I had a great time in Dallas. Went there for my Instructor Upgrade (from Recongnized to Certified) and to assist in teaching the Expert Class. Working for Randy and Jerry was an absolute honor and pleasure. I've been to Cue Tech four times in the past 16 months, and every time I go there, I learn something new and exciting about how to make my game better.

Well, enough for now... I'm going to browse the board and see what everyone was up to while I was in Pool School.

Later,
Bob

pooltchr
04-06-2005, 04:03 AM
Bob,
I sure enjoyed the chance to meet, work and play some pool with you as well. (and, yes...you can bank!!!) Banking the 7,8 and 9 to get out on me was quite impressive!
SAM is a concept that I know is going to be a big part of my game. I started working with it last night. The results were less than I would have liked, but better by the end of the session than at the beginning, so I know it's going to work for me. Also got to show my wife the kicking systems we went over. She was kicking 2 and 3 rails with confidence after about 2 hours.
It would be great if you could come to Charlotte for Randy's Road Show. We are looking at October if I can secure a room to work in. Will let you know. Maybe we can even get Scott to plan a trip down south around that time.

I'm so excited about the new things I picked up from everyone, I'm hitting the pool room every night for the next couple of weeks just to practice. I can't wait to see the reaction in league the first time I use gyroscopic procession to nail that side pocket hanger down in the corner pocket, or cut a SAM2 in the corner and then jump over the blockers to get up table!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Thanks for all your help and advice. The whole weekend was a great experience!
Steve

Barbara
04-06-2005, 04:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> I can't wait to see the reaction in league the first time I use gyroscopic procession to nail that side pocket hanger down in the corner pocket, or cut a SAM2 in the corner and then jump over the blockers to get up table!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Thanks for all your help and advice. The whole weekend was a great experience!
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

You guys are KILLING me!!

Barbara

pooltchr
04-06-2005, 05:52 AM
Barbara,
When you see it in action, you will come right back to life!
BIG TIME!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Steve

Barbara
04-06-2005, 06:36 AM
Okay! Okay! LOL!

So what's Randyg's traveling Pool School Schedule? I went to his site but didn't see it.

Barbara

Rich R.
04-06-2005, 06:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Okay! Okay! LOL!

So what's Randyg's traveling Pool School Schedule? I went to his site but didn't see it. <hr /></blockquote>
Check it out here. http://www.poolschool.info/roadshows.htm

I'm scheduled to go to the session in Rockville, in June. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

theinel
06-16-2005, 04:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>On many of the "7 ft. vs. 9 ft." discussions, I'm always on the side of "neither is easier."<hr /></blockquote>
Not an attack Fred but this statement, while clearly true, it is too vague to hold much meaning and is much too imprecise for your normal standards. A 7 ft. table with 5 in. pockets is clearly easier than a 9 ft. table with 4 in. pockets and a corollary is just as true. Yes the congestion factor on a small table can influence the difficulty but the shorter paths/routes/patterns make it easier to remedy the congestion.

As a real world proof I offer the BCA National 8-Ball tournament. My break and run/runout percentage this year was in the mid 30th percentile. Unfortunatly my opponents were even higher. In my first loss the first four games were all break and runs and in six of nine games one player never got a turn. I am not a great player and am in no way trying to impress, I'm just pointing out that small tables with large, forgiving pockets make for easy runouts by skilled players. At my home pool hall on 9 ft. table with tight pockets my run out percentage is under ten percent.

Sorry to drone on. My point is that table size vs difficulty is highly dependent on pocket size (and forgiveness in the rails near the pockets).

Fred Agnir
06-16-2005, 06:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote theinel:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>On many of the "7 ft. vs. 9 ft." discussions, I'm always on the side of "neither is easier."<hr /></blockquote>
Not an attack Fred but this statement, while clearly true, it is too vague to hold much meaning and is much too imprecise for your normal standards. <hr /></blockquote>

I've probably written too many pages on justifying the statement. Maybe I should have provided a link.



[ QUOTE ]


As a real world proof I offer the BCA National 8-Ball tournament. My break and run/runout percentage this year was in the mid 30th percentile. Unfortunatly my opponents were even higher. <hr /></blockquote> This is anectodal, and far from proof. As a response, my B&amp;R percentage at our New England Best of the Best was about %30, on 9' tables. My normal BCA 8-ball performace is normally less than that. This year, I had all of one B&amp;R at the Nationals, although that's not the norm. However, what can be said is that it took me a long time to "get the tables."


[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to drone on. My point is that table size vs difficulty is highly dependent on pocket size (and forgiveness in the rails near the pockets). <hr /></blockquote> And the condition of the cloth and cushions. None of which is specific to the size of the table.

Fred

HALHOULE
06-18-2005, 09:35 PM
STEVE, DO YOU KNOW WHERE "SAM" CAME FROM?

recoveryjones
06-18-2005, 11:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> STEVE, DO YOU KNOW WHERE "SAM" CAME FROM? <hr /></blockquote>

If it's an aiming method,good chance it came from you Hal. You sure have some great ones. RJ

pooltchr
06-19-2005, 09:35 AM
Randy told me it was the result of time spent with you.
Steve