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recoveryjones
04-04-2005, 08:38 PM
I noticed that the BCA instructors and instructors from the Billiard Sanctuary all put great emphasis on Set-Pause-Finish-Freeze on their teaching to their students.Are their any instructors,or any students of the BCA or Billiard Sanctuary who can explain each of the four concepts more clearly and the reason for each.

I've never taken a lesson from either place,however,if I were to give my opinion on it here's what I've come up with:

Set:
Align your body (legs,cueing arm,eyes,shoulders,) as well as your cue, cue ball desired contact posistion,bridge hand and object ball contact point in a straight line in relation to the attempted shot.

Pause:
A definite brief COMPLETE STOP after your practice strokes that takes place on the completion of your final back swing.This gives your tricep a chance to stop being active and gives way to your bicep to complete the forward stroke.
This STOP as I understand give the bicep and tricep muscles a chance to stop working against one another during the final stroke.Another purpose of the pause is to give the eyes sufficent time to fully focus on the contact point of the object ball as the eyes have earlier been shifting back and forth between the cue ball and object ball during the practice strokes.

Finish:

To totally complete the stroke,follow through and not to stop it prematurely with a jabb.Nothing should move up to this point including the head and other body parts with exception of the cueing arm from the elbow down.

Freeze:

To stay down for a period of time AFTER the the shot has been completed.Some pros recommend staying down until the cue ball has made contact with the object ball.Others say until the ball goes in and some instructors actually say stay down for a two count.For whatever duration is chosen, a freeze in my opinion is staying motionless for a period of time after contact with the cue on the object ball.Another purpose of the freeze is to analyze the shot.

My question to the instructors is, is a pause completed when there is no stopping in the rythmn of the practice strokes and there is no noticable difference in one's practice strokes and ones final stroke?Some say that everyone pauses automatically because it's impossible not to. Is this true?

Also is a freeze accomplished when one jumps up immediatly after finishing the shot while staying down for the set-pause-finish aspects of the shot.Is that considered a freeze and is that what the freeze is all about as taught by BCA instructors?

Just kinda curious as to some instructors answers on these questions because there seems to be a few pros who don't complete the four step process. RJ

Rod
04-04-2005, 09:15 PM
RJ, I won't answer for them but here is what I teach related to the topic. There is actually two pause's if you will. Set is a pause at the c/b before the backswing, a pause is change in directions obviously. Finish is going thru the c/b, while freeze is as stated, you stay down well after the ball goes in to observe.

That is the short of it, I think most instructors teach the same principals we just use different words.

Rod

Gayle in MD
04-04-2005, 11:37 PM
It's interesting, isn't it, how, when one studies the methods used by pro shooters, one notices so many different stroking styles.

Some pause on the back swing, others pause at the end of the last practice stroke, still others seem to have just a slower, stroking pattern, with a smooth, slow follow through, and still others seem to stop or set at the end of each of many practice strokes, with little or no actual pause at all.

Kind of makes you think that maybe some folks need to find their own particular style, that works best for them?

Gayle in Md.

Scott Lee
04-05-2005, 01:23 AM
RJ...You don't quite have it, but you're fairly close! Rod hit it on the head. The "set" position occurs at the CB, after your warmup cycle is finished. It's the last conscious thought about, "Well? Are you ready or not?" With the tip at the CB, the "set" position is used to verify earlier decisions on angle, speed and spin. If it is a go, there are no more warmups, and the final backswing begins. The "pause" happens as we come to the end of the natural backward motion of the cue, so we can make a smooth transition to the forward swing. All strokes start from zero, and accelerate to whatever speed you're hitting the shot with. The "finish" is exactly how you described it. The grip hand ends up in the armpit area, close to the chest; and the tip is on or close to the cloth, some distance past where the CB was sitting. The "freeze" is an opportunity for self-evaluation, that happens after the stroke is over, and you have remained motionless, except for your forearm. The freeze allows you to check components of your stroke, including the grip finish, tip finish, and speed control.

Scott Lee

randyg
04-05-2005, 05:06 AM
SET-PAUSE-FINISH-FREEZE is a Trade Mark of CUE-TECH Pool School in Dallas Texas. Instructors and Students alike are welcome to utilize the value of SPFF. While SPF is just a small portion of our school's phylosophy, it is certainly the most recognizable.

REMEMBER THIS: All pool players have to "Pause" at the back of their back stroke. Great players do it on purpose....SPF-randyg

SpiderMan
04-05-2005, 07:49 AM
I don't think it's just a BCA thing, as Rod Elliot (not a "BCA" instructor, to my knowlege) was explaining it to me several years ago.

The "pause" part, as referenced by Scott and Randy, is the difficult for me to do deliberately (at least for a measureable time). On the other hand, I take comfort in the knowlege that, mathematically, a true pendulum only "pauses" for an infinitesimal time, even though it may appear to hang motionless. So, rather than stretch the moment at the expense of my natural timing, I just remain closer to the "ideal" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Sorry, Rod.

SpiderMan

Rod
04-05-2005, 08:16 AM
No need to be sorry Marty. Rather than pause, I prefer to use, "Finish Your Backswing". If you do that, there is a slight pause built in. The word pause, although I've used it, just sounds a bit to mechanical to me.

I think any of those terms are to be used lightly. If you take them literally, it may put you in static frozen positions. Although that may be closer to the truth, I wouldn't want to make someone tense and rigid. Can you be moving while standing still? I think so. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod

ceebee
04-05-2005, 11:07 AM
..as far as different styles in our professional players is concerned, please remember most are self-taught over years & years. However, they all have in common one very important facet of the stroke, they have a good level & straight delivery through the cue ball.

As someone once said "if it's a matter of style, let it go. If it's a matter of principal, stick to the facts".

Myself, I like the "set-pause-finish-freeze" concept, one thing this philosophy gives me is concious thought about the stroke through the ball. This thought process prohibits me from guiding the cue & cue ball through the shot & this process prohibits me from concentrating on the moment of impact. That moment becomes an incident, rather than a purpose.

recoveryjones
04-05-2005, 07:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>



REMEMBER THIS: All pool players have to "Pause" at the back of their back stroke. Great players do it on purpose....SPF-randyg

<hr /></blockquote>

Hi Randy, Are you saying(above quote) that everyone pauses when going from back stroke to forward stroke because it's impossible not to?

I see a few players with no noticable stop in between back and forward motions.
I remember (as a PUNK/DRUNK 16 year old)doing a lot of damage to my dads (automatic transmission) Chrysler.I backed it up rather fastly in reverse and then slammed it into drive without coming to a pause before doing so.
Result-Transmission damage.Doing the same thing with a cue, undoubtingly would cause stroke damage I would think.Is the pause you are teaching a definte stop before going forward?If so how long minimial should this pause be 1 second or fractions of a second?

I also see that some of the pros seem to totally ignore the freeze faze of the S.P.F.F cycle.

Having said this, thanks to everyone for their comments and also for clarifying the set procedure of the cycle. RJ

randyg
04-05-2005, 09:11 PM
(Hi Randy, Are you saying(above quote) that everyone pauses when going from back stroke to forward stroke because it's impossible not to?)

YES. The back stroke should have no bearing on the forward stroke. There are 3 reasons why all players have to "Pause".

How long should one "Pause"? That would be up to each individual. How they control the "Pause" is the important factor, not how long.

In Pool School we help them by using the 2-second rule. This is a practice tool only. Proper use of the 2-second rule could not only shorten but magnify your practice routines.

Hope this helps.....Good luck...SPF-randyg

The one thing to always remember: Practice and Play are two different mind sets.

christopheradams
04-06-2005, 04:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> (Hi Randy, Are you saying(above quote) that everyone pauses when going from back stroke to forward stroke because it's impossible not to?)

YES. The back stroke should have no bearing on the forward stroke. There are 3 reasons why all players have to "Pause".

How long should one "Pause"? That would be up to each individual. How they control the "Pause" is the important factor, not how long.

In Pool School we help them by using the 2-second rule. This is a practice tool only. Proper use of the 2-second rule could not only shorten but magnify your practice routines.

Hope this helps.....Good luck...SPF-randyg

The one thing to always remember: Practice and Play are two different mind sets.
<hr /></blockquote>

When watching "Play pool right" Jerry Breiseth(is that his name) talks about "back slow, accellerate." I think this would more helpful advice for some people. Taking the cue back and stopping dead can cause more of a push stroke or a mechanical robotic stroke . A stroke should be more fluid and flowing. Allison Fisher and Karen corr have noticeable pauses in their strokes and it works for them but I don't think it can work for everyone. I think it has something to do with your natural pace as a person as well. Fast and hyper type people might prefer the back forward motion while a more deliberate and slow person may like the back, pause, shoot motion. I've experimented with them all. I've also done experimenting with the no pause stroke(no pause front or back of stroke).
Sometimes I read things and cannot recall what book it was in. It was either in Capelle's "play pool right", or a book by an author by the name or "kanov" or something similair to that name. In that book they described how 3 of the different strokes can all be useful to different people(the pause, pause at front only, and no pause).

I know its been said that it's impossible not to pause on the backstroke. Even though this may be so, there definately is a difference between taking the cue back then coming right forward, and taking the cue back stopping on purpose and then coming forward.

The action seems very similair to taking a golf swing. If you took the club back and at the top said "stop" and then came forward it would be an awkward motion.

randyg
04-06-2005, 05:06 AM
CHRISTOPHERADAMS: Would you mind sharing with us the "no pause" stroke. I for one am very interested, maybe some of our chat members and certainly Mr. Newton will be paying very close attention to your explanation.....Thank you in advance....SPF-randyg

christopheradams
04-06-2005, 05:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> CHRISTOPHERADAMS: Would you mind sharing with us the "no pause" stroke. I for one am very interested, maybe some of our chat members and certainly Mr. Newton will be paying very close attention to your explanation.....Thank you in advance....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Going right into the shot from the practice strokes. No "noticeable" pause at the front or the back. Hope Mr. Newton was paying attention /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif. I would say most people have a noticable pause at the front and I can remember seeing a pro player that has no noticable pause but cannot recall the name. Possibly Vivian V. Not gonna even try to spell the last name. "Texas Tornado"

pooltchr
04-06-2005, 05:56 AM
I believe Randy put it best when he said "All poolplayers have a pause at the back of their stroke. The great ones do it on purpose."
Steve

Gayle in MD
04-06-2005, 10:05 AM
Hi,
I'm a great believer in lessons from a good instructor. I have had instructions with Scott Lee, and found them to be invaluable, and as a student of the game, I also spend a great deal of time studying videos of the pro matches, men and women players. One of my problems....if it is a problem, I can't seem to get myself to follow through to the degree that Scott advises. My natural follow through ends with my back hand about evenly alligned to the side of my... Excuse me, breast. To follow through beyond that, until my hand actually extends to the front of my chest, just does not feel natural.

In studying Allison and Karen, when the camera angles are from the side, it looks to me like they are ending about where I naturally want to end my stroke, even with the side of my breast, but not beyond it.

I think one's anatomy figures into their stroke to some degree, and also into their stance. Those issues seem to me to be somewhat individual, while others would seem to be universal, such as being balanced, having a level, straight, smooth stroke,... pausing before the last forward stroke, for me at the back of the stroke. I once heard Allison say that the most important advice she had ever received was to "Pause". I totally agree with that.

When you are struggling to learn and improve it can be a bit confusing at times, analyzing what you have been taught, and comparing it to what you see when you study the physical charateristics of pro players. Although many issues seem to be universally agreed upon by instructors, some are controversial, such as which ball to look at last, CB or OB, for example.

Also, in working with my game, I have experimented with the tempo or rhythm of my stroke, and how that affects my aim. I have found recently that I need to take more strokes than is usually advised, before I "Set" a Point of aim, like five to seven or so. I seem to need these extra aiming strokes in advance of the... set, pause. This has slowed down the whole process, and made my shots more accurate.

Thanks, BTW, for the quote, I like that...

Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dr_dave
04-06-2005, 10:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> CHRISTOPHERADAMS: Would you mind sharing with us the "no pause" stroke. I for one am very interested, maybe some of our chat members and certainly Mr. Newton will be paying very close attention to your explanation.....Thank you in advance....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>
I think some definitions might help the discussion/confusion. At a transition from a back stroke to a forward stroke, the motion reverses direction; so at some point, the speed must be zero. However, it is possible for the speed to be zero for only an "instant" (e.g., as with a naturally swinging pendulum). A "pause" would involve staying at zero speed for a finite (i.e., non zero) amount of time (i.e., more than an "instant"). It is possible, and easy, to transition from back stroke to forward stroke without a "pause," but the cue stick does need to officially come to a "stop" (if only for an "instant"). Again, for a naturally swinging pendulum, the hanging mass has zero speed only for an "instant" and there is no "pause."

I think Newton would have been in full agreement with this description.

Bottom line: It IS possible to transition without a "pause."

Regards,
Dr. Dave

PS: I don't think any of this discussion really matters. People need to do what is comfortable for them, regardless of the terminology and physics.

Rich R.
04-06-2005, 10:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Again, for a naturally swinging pendulum, the hanging mass has zero speed only for an "instant" and there is no "pause." <hr /></blockquote>
Dr. Dave, aren't you contradicting yourself with this statement? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

First you say that the "mass has zero speed only for an instant."
Then you say, "there is no pause."

Isn't the instant that the mass remains at zero speed considered a pause, however short it may be?

dr_dave
04-06-2005, 11:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Again, for a naturally swinging pendulum, the hanging mass has zero speed only for an "instant" and there is no "pause." <hr /></blockquote>
Dr. Dave, aren't you contradicting yourself with this statement? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

First you say that the "mass has zero speed only for an instant."
Then you say, "there is no pause."

Isn't the instant that the mass remains at zero speed considered a pause, however short it may be?<hr /></blockquote>

There is no contradiction. It is possible for the speed to hit zero without staying at zero. An "instant" involves no passage of time. I know this might sound ridiculous, but it is what happens with a naturally swinging pendulum (and with a smooth, continuous pool stroke). The speed goes to zero only for an "instant." The speed gradually decreases going into the transition, gradually goes through zero at the transition, and gradually increases after the transition.

Again, I don't think understanding all of this is important (unless you do work with calculus and physics), but it is valid and real.

Regards,
Dr. Dave

SpiderMan
04-06-2005, 11:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Again, for a naturally swinging pendulum, the hanging mass has zero speed only for an "instant" and there is no "pause." <hr /></blockquote>
Dr. Dave, aren't you contradicting yourself with this statement? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

First you say that the "mass has zero speed only for an instant."
Then you say, "there is no pause."

Isn't the instant that the mass remains at zero speed considered a pause, however short it may be? <hr /></blockquote>

No, Dave is correct. If you were to graph position as a function of time for a partial cycle of this pendulum, you would see something approaching a half-sinusoid. The center of the "hump" on this curve represents the furthest point on the backswing. Now imagine a tangent line to this curve - the slope of that line represents the speed at that point. Clearly, at the center of the hump, the line is horizontal so the speed is zero. So, there is a point at the rear of the backswing where speed is zero.

While it is true that this zero speed (flat tangent line) occurs for only one point in time (infinitesimal duration), it is also true that the slope is &lt;nearly&gt; zero on both sides of that point. So, from a practical perspective, the "pause" does extend an arbitrary amount of time on both sides of the rearmost backswing, even if there is no intentional "forced" pause.

SpiderMan

Gayle in MD
04-06-2005, 11:27 AM
Hi,
You might be thinking of Julie Kelly, very fast and short back stroke. I can't see ANY pause at the rear of her stroke, LOL.

Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dr_dave
04-06-2005, 01:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>While it is true that this zero speed (flat tangent line) occurs for only one point in time (infinitesimal duration), it is also true that the slope is &lt;nearly&gt; zero on both sides of that point. So, from a practical perspective, the "pause" does extend an arbitrary amount of time on both sides of the rearmost backswing, even if there is no intentional "forced" pause.<hr /></blockquote>
Well stated!

Dr. Dave

Gayle in MD
04-06-2005, 01:45 PM
That is an absolutely fabulous description of what my teacher told me, LOL. No, seriously, communication is your forte my friend. Now just pahleze tell me how to get this hand around this boob into this chest, LMAO!
How's it going friend?

Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

randyg
04-06-2005, 04:25 PM
Dr_Dave:

If an "instant" is no passage of time. What is a pause?....SPF-randyg

dr_dave
04-06-2005, 04:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Dr_Dave:

If an "instant" is no passage of time. What is a pause?....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>
A "pause" is a finite (i.e., non zero) amount of time when the speed is 0 (i.e., the cue stick is not moving). For example, Allison Fisher "pauses" for about 1-2 seconds. With a continous motion (e.g., as with a free swinging pendulum), there is no pause; although, because the stick is moving so slowly just before and after the transistion, it seems like there is a "pause."

recoveryjones
04-06-2005, 06:02 PM
OK, from what I gather everyone pauses because it's impossible not to, I can totally agree and accept this analysis.

That split second- superfast- in an instant pause, however, is definitly not the one that the BCA and other teaching academys are trying to teach to their students.

Am I correct in saying this and if so why would you instructors want to make the pause a little more definite?
Same goes for the freeze. Split second or more definite, what are the advantages and what do you teach or reccomend.
Thanks, RJ

Fred Agnir
04-06-2005, 08:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Dr_Dave:

If an "instant" is no passage of time. What is a pause?....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>
A "pause" is a finite (i.e., non zero) amount of time when the speed is 0 (i.e., the cue stick is not moving). For example, Allison Fisher "pauses" for about 1-2 seconds. With a continous motion (e.g., as with a free swinging pendulum), there is no pause; although, because the stick is moving so slowly just before and after the transistion, it seems like there is a "pause." <hr /></blockquote>Considering that a human arm could never duplicate a free swinging pendulum, would you contend that a human would indeed pause?

Are we splitting hairs based on physics that really doesn't apply to the human body?

Fred

pooltchr
04-07-2005, 04:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> why would you instructors want to make the pause a little more definite?
Same goes for the freeze. Split second or more definite, what are the advantages and what do you teach or reccomend.
Thanks, RJ <hr /></blockquote>

RJ,
The reason for the pause is to allow a smooth transition of muscle control from the triceps (delivering the back swing) and the biceps (for the forward motion)

Holding the freeze allows your brain time to read and evaluate your final stroke position to see if you delivered the cue as you intended. (Did I do everything correctly?)
Steve

CJ_ATX
04-07-2005, 05:03 AM
I just started taking lessons last month from a BCA instructor, and of course I was told about the S.P.F.F. The pause is taught with a 2 second pause to exaggerate the motion to reprogram the mind. Once you get used to your new pre shot routine your pause would be slightly quicker.

recoveryjones
04-07-2005, 06:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CJ_ATX:</font><hr> I just started taking lessons last month from a BCA instructor, and of course I was told about the S.P.F.F. The pause is taught with a 2 second pause to exaggerate the motion to reprogram the mind. Once you get used to your new pre shot routine your pause would be slightly quicker. <hr /></blockquote>

Are you used to it yet?How long did it take for you to incorporate the transistion. I imagine your game will take a step backwards before it takes a few steps forward. Your body will probably have to get out of the mechinical phase ,before it starts to feel more natural...best of luck.RJ

randyg
04-07-2005, 06:18 AM
The SPF&amp;F CHECK-LIST is a PRACTICE tool only.

Once this system (proper practice) is integrated into your subconscious motor function routines, the words go away. What you have left is a body movement(Stroke)just like you practice, but in real time. No conscious thought at all.

While pool styles may change; Physics, Physiology, Kinesthesia and Mental Rythums generally are the same for every person.

At CUE-TECH we don't teach a student to stop at their backstroke, we show them how to make a smoooooooth transition from back to forward. This allows a student to move their cue backwards allowing them to start at Zero and accelerate forward in a straight line to their proper Finish position. The cue-ball just happens to get in the way of a perfect stroke!!!!!!!!

If Dr. Dave wants to split atoms between an "instant" &amp; a "pause", come to Pool School.

Recoverjones, I hope this helps you to understand why we are the #1 Pool School in the WORLD.....Thanks and SPF-randyg

dr_dave
04-07-2005, 06:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>Considering that a human arm could never duplicate a free swinging pendulum, would you contend that a human would indeed pause?<hr /></blockquote>
Fred,

I think it is entirely possible for a human to fairly closely duplicate the motion of a free-swinging pendulum. In fact, the motion shown in TP A.9 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-9.pdf) is very similar to pendulum motion (which is sinusoidal). The curves show actual acceleration measurements of a continuous ("pause-less") stroke of a pro three-cushion player. If there were a pause, the acceleration curves would have a flat-line horizontal segment at zero. The curves don't exhibit any flatness because this person's stroke is totally smooth and continuous (i.e., uninterrupted by any pause). By the way, I think (but I'm not sure) that the extra bumps in the acceleration curves are due to subtle changes in the grip hand (e.g., subtle pressure point changes and/or skin/flesh flexing). Otherwise, the curves are fairly close to sinusoidal (i.e., pendulum-like motion). There certainly isn't anything close to a "pause" in the curves. I'm not saying this is a recommended practice, to not have a distinct "pause," but it is possible and in fact quite common. Soon, I will post some plots that will show speed and acceleration profiles for strokes with and without a "pauses" to help make all of this clearer.

dr_dave
04-07-2005, 06:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>If Dr. Dave wants to split atoms between an "instant" &amp; a "pause", come to Pool School.<hr /></blockquote>
I don't want to split atoms (... that's actually quite dangerous /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif). I just wanted to make sure the terminology is clear and not misleading. I think my latest post concerning the definition of a "pause" (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=187178&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=&amp;PHPSESSID=) is clear, and backed up by experimental evidence.

As I have written many times, the most important thing is that someone be comfortable, accurate, and repeatable with his or her stroke. Nothing else (especially terminology) really matters. Some people pause before the final forward stroke (e.g., Allison Fisher) and most don't.

Respectfully,
Dr. Dave

By the way, if you are offering me free lessons at your Pool School, I would love to attend.

CJ_ATX
04-07-2005, 07:01 AM
Am I use to it...? Yes and No. During practice sessions I really slow down and break down the steps in my stroke. It still feels really akward stopping in the back stroke and waiting, and waiting and to actually be able to hit accuratly is still tough. Then again I am working on the stroke and not really making the ball. However my true game has jumped up alot. My game stroke is smooth as ever and the pause is not so much on my mind, just trying to make that clean smooth stroke and it is happening right before my eyes. My instructor also moved my right hand "but hand" back several inches. So my arm is perpendicular to the cue at the moment of impact. That too has helped out tremendously. Good luck...

littleCajun
04-07-2005, 07:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Dr_Dave:

If an "instant" is no passage of time. What is a pause?....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>
A "pause" is a finite (i.e., non zero) amount of time when the speed is 0 (i.e., the cue stick is not moving). For example, Allison Fisher "pauses" for about 1-2 seconds. With a continous motion (e.g., as with a free swinging pendulum), there is no pause; although, because the stick is moving so slowly just before and after the transistion, it seems like there is a "pause." <hr /></blockquote>

Dr Dave,
I am an Engineer and have taken all the physics and Math course to complete my degree. I just wanted to touch upon the term "Finite". I was taught you can not stop time. So if a pendulum must stop going backwards before going forwards the time it takes to transition can be measured no matter how small of time it is. This is where the math comes in when we graph slopes and derivitives (spelling is wrong) To see how infinately close to zero we can come without hitting zero. So I would say that a pendulum does pause. Let me know /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

dr_dave
04-07-2005, 07:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote littleCajun:</font><hr>Dr Dave,
I am an Engineer and have taken all the physics and Math course to complete my degree. I just wanted to touch upon the term "Finite". I was taught you can not stop time. So if a pendulum must stop going backwards before going forwards the time it takes to transition can be measured no matter how small of time it is. This is where the math comes in when we graph slopes and derivitives (spelling is wrong) To see how infinately close to zero we can come without hitting zero. So I would say that a pendulum does pause. Let me know /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>

A pendulum's motion is sinusoidal. The speed is zero only for an "instant" (per Webster's AND Newton's definitions) at the distinct "points" at the very top or bottom of the sin wave. The speed is negative (but close to zero) just to the left of the bottom point (at the end of the reverse stroke), and is positive (but close to zero) just to the right of the bottom point (at the beginning of forward stroke). There is no "pause" during the transition (i.e., at the bottom point). If there were a "pause," the bottom "point" would be a horizontal line segment instead, interrupting the sinusoidal motion. I hope this makes sense.

For more information and experimental proof, see my other message concerning the "pause." (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=187189&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

Regards,
Dr. Dave

SpiderMan
04-07-2005, 09:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Now just pahleze tell me how to get this hand around this boob into this chest, LMAO!
Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

At times, the written word is inadequate to illustrate that which must be demonstrated /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

Gayle in MD
04-07-2005, 09:36 AM
Hmm, LOL, I'm looking forward to that, LOL. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Jeeze, I sure hope I don't get deleted for advertizing my, ah hem, wares, LOL.
Gayle in Md.

Scott Lee
04-07-2005, 09:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Now just pahleze tell me how to get this hand around this boob into this chest, LMAO!
Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle...As long as you are coming to YOUR natural finish position with your grip hand, how far you followthrough past the CB is fairly irrelevant. It can be as little as an inch or as much as several inches (based on your natural body style, and other factors). Finish the swing to it's natural conclusion, and that's all that matters. Can't wait to work with you again soon!
Scott

Voodoo Daddy
04-07-2005, 10:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote littleCajun:</font><hr> Dr Dave,
I am an Engineer and have taken all the physics and Math course to complete my degree. I just wanted to touch upon the term "Finite". I was taught you can not stop time. So if a pendulum must stop going backwards before going forwards the time it takes to transition can be measured no matter how small of time it is. This is where the math comes in when we graph slopes and derivitives (spelling is wrong) To see how infinately close to zero we can come without hitting zero. So I would say that a pendulum does pause. Let me know /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Great post...I also say the pendulum does pause, which is the comparison I use to teach. The "pause" is natural, Bob Murphy the Senior Tour golfer has a dramatic pause...as does Buddy Hall. Its kinda like what goes up must come down but not without what appears to be a "suspension" which is a pause as well. Thanks for your isnsight on this subject..

caedos
04-07-2005, 02:20 PM
As long as it is smooth and under control, I'm happy with my student's stroke. Whether zero speed is definable, measurable or observable in the human mechanism is not relevant to its application in training the stroke. Theory is fun to think about, but at some point I want to play the game or teach the reality that we deal with at the table. Anyone even remotely receptive will understand the need for a smooth transition after seeing other versions on video analysis. The Pause has always drawn more fire on this board than Set, Finish, or Freeze. Mostly I see the timing of the Pause as a result of what the shooter is or isn't doing with their eyes in the firing order of the shot.

"Must make ball!"

Carl

SPetty
04-07-2005, 02:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote caedos:</font><hr> Mostly I see the timing of the Pause as a result of what the shooter is or isn't doing with their eyes in the firing order of the shot<hr /></blockquote>To clarify: (For the clarification to work, please assume that the shooter desires to rest their vision on the object ball last...)

So you would expect it's O.K. for the duration of the pause to be shorter if the shooter is one that makes the visual transition from the cue ball to the object ball prior to their final backswing?

So you would expect the duration of the pause to be longer if the shooter is one that makes the visual transition from the cue ball to the object ball while paused at the end of the backswing?

SpiderMan
04-07-2005, 03:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote littleCajun:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Dr_Dave:

If an "instant" is no passage of time. What is a pause?....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>
A "pause" is a finite (i.e., non zero) amount of time when the speed is 0 (i.e., the cue stick is not moving). For example, Allison Fisher "pauses" for about 1-2 seconds. With a continous motion (e.g., as with a free swinging pendulum), there is no pause; although, because the stick is moving so slowly just before and after the transistion, it seems like there is a "pause." <hr /></blockquote>

Dr Dave,
I am an Engineer and have taken all the physics and Math course to complete my degree. I just wanted to touch upon the term "Finite". I was taught you can not stop time. So if a pendulum must stop going backwards before going forwards the time it takes to transition can be measured no matter how small of time it is. This is where the math comes in when we graph slopes and derivitives (spelling is wrong) To see how infinately close to zero we can come without hitting zero. So I would say that a pendulum does pause. Let me know /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>

littleCajun,

The position, velocity, and acceleration of an ideal pendulum are all described by sinusoidal functions.

First derivative of sine is cosine. At the point where the sine (position) peaks (pi/2, plus or minus any integer multiple of pi), it's derivative (velocity) crosses zero. I say "crosses" zero because it does not remain at that point for any non-zero interval. I am intrigued that an engineer would not acknowlege this.

An ideal pendulum's total energy is in constant transition between gravitational potential and kinetic, the sum being always constant. For the benefit of Patrick, note that I am considering Newtonian (non-relativistic) physics only.

No one is saying that the ideal pendulum mimics the ideal pool stroke, but I believe many of us can show mathematically that an ideal pendulum does not "pause".

SpiderMan

Cane
04-07-2005, 06:07 PM
Gentlemen, I am an engineer too, and I never thought I'd see the day when other engineers made me go "Geez!!!!!". I think we got way off of the point and, for once (oh, it pains me to say this) too deep into definitions of physics and terminology.

The plain simple fact is this... IN A STROKE, a pause, no matter how small, how insignigicant, or if you want to graph it, how close to zero the curve is, or how little or long a duration it stays on the zero line, is an absolute in playing pool. You cannot make the cue go forward without first STOPPING it's rearward motion (the backstroke)... let's not think in terms of a pendulum, let's think in terms of this straight stick, going back, then forth. The term "PAUSE" is that time when it changes direction and in order to change direction it must stop at the transition. NOW, we're not taking about something travelling in an arc, we're taking about linear motion.

If I were teaching a Physics class, I probably wouldn't use the word pause, but I'm not... I'm teaching pool. Pause is a ubiquitous term for the transition between the backstroke and forward stroke. Can we agree on that, at least, and drop the banter about terminology? Let's just pretend for a second that we can do this... now then, why is a pause necessary? Well, because our arm is NOT a pendulum that depends on strictly gravity for it's motion, it's a machine driven by two very very VERY terribly tuned machines called the bicep and tricep. If we don't stop our rearward motion before we begin our forward motion, then we don't have the same situation we do in a MODEL pendulum, we have two distinct and relatively hard to control groups of muscles fighting each other. Take the cue back with the tricep, relax, take it forward with the bicep. If you don't have that "relax" part in there, hmmm...let's call it a pause, then the bicep and tricep are working at the same time... I feel trouble brewing here... two sets of muscles working against each other. Sounds kind of like a tug of war, doesn't it... do you want a tug of war happening in the middle of your stroke? I don't know, maybe some do want that, but I don't... so I'll go back, relax and call that moment of muscle relaxation, however long OR brief in duration, a PAUSE. Hell, I could call it a Three-Eared JackRabbit if I wanted to, as long as it is there and preventing me from trying to make the tricep and bicep work at the same time. You can argue back and forth for days whether a "pendulum" reaches zero for more than an instant or NOT, but we are NOT talking about a mechanical pendulum, which is a very simple machine, we are taking about a STROKE made by a human body, probably the most complex machines that ever existed. For that machine to work properly and most efficiently, it CANNOT fight itself... no pause (or instantaneous moment of zero accelleration) and you have physical conflict between two muscle groups. Hey, as long as we're going to have our bodies fighting themselves, let's grip the cue so tight that it turns the butt of the wood blue, so now we have a half a dozen other muscle groups working at the same time. Nah... if we did that, we'd quit this game for frustration and take up something that's less frustrating, like, oh, I don't know... computers...

Gotta run... tournament in an hour!

Later,
Bob

recoveryjones
04-07-2005, 09:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CJ_ATX:</font><hr> Am I use to it...? Yes and No. During practice sessions I really slow down and break down the steps in my stroke. It still feels really akward stopping in the back stroke and waiting, and waiting and to actually be able to hit accuratly is still tough. Then again I am working on the stroke and not really making the ball. However my true game has jumped up alot. My game stroke is smooth as ever and the pause is not so much on my mind, just trying to make that clean smooth stroke and it is happening right before my eyes. My instructor also moved my right hand "but hand" back several inches. So my arm is perpendicular to the cue at the moment of impact. That too has helped out tremendously. Good luck... <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for your answer.

You've moved your hand back on the butt. Do you have your chin down on the cue, or close to it.The reason I ask is that I've heard that the lower down you go on the cue, the further back your back hand should go on the cue. I have heard also that having your arm at a 90 degree angle on cue ball contact is a good thing. It sounds like you are getting some good instuction. Best of luck, RJ

catscradle
04-08-2005, 04:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Dr_Dave:

If an "instant" is no passage of time. What is a pause?....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>
A "pause" is a finite (i.e., non zero) amount of time when the speed is 0 (i.e., the cue stick is not moving). For example, Allison Fisher "pauses" for about 1-2 seconds. With a continous motion (e.g., as with a free swinging pendulum), there is no pause; although, because the stick is moving so slowly just before and after the transistion, it seems like there is a "pause." <hr /></blockquote>

I'll take your statement on it's face about free swinging pendulums and assume it is true. The rub is that the arm going through a stroke is not by any stretch a free swinging pendulum. There is a lot of physiology interferring with the pure physics. In the case of a free swing pendulum the force of gravity is continuous and uni-directional and the pendulum is just reacting to it. In the case of moving a cue through it's motion the force imposed upon the cue by the arm has to be reversed, this cannot possibly be done in an "instant" no matter how well coordinated the stroker is. I think Randy is still right there must be a pause, however short it may be, due to physiology not physics.
Now as to whether or not I agree that an extended pause is a good thing, I will find that out in July at Randy's travelling pool school. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

CJ_ATX
04-08-2005, 04:31 AM
Yes my chin is right on the cue. I have always had my chin down, lower is better....right? Yes having a 90 degree angle with your forearm and cue at the moment of impact is a great thing. The cue is "level" or as best as can be.

Good luck

pooltchr
04-08-2005, 04:46 AM
Bob,
Thanks for a realistic point of view.
I think the term pendulum is used more to describe the direction of the stroking arm rather than the actual motion. Whether or not a clock pendulum stops (pauses) has nothing to do with what we do when stroking a cue.
It's the describes the path we follow, not the exact physical motion.
Arguing this point doesn't make sense. You and I both know that a pause is necessary for a smooth stroke. I think I would rather have a better stroke than win an arguement on a small technicality. That's why I have a pause. If the clock doesn't have one, so what? The clock isn't trying to make the 9-ball.
Steve

Scott Lee
04-08-2005, 05:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CJ_ATX:</font><hr> Yes my chin is right on the cue. I have always had my chin down, lower is better....right?
Good luck
<hr /></blockquote>

CJ_ATX...This is absolutely not true! It makes NO difference how high or low you get over the cuestick. The important factor, is that the swing is natural, and, as you mentioned, the cuestick is as level as reasonable. The only time you'll see with my chin on the cue, is if I am stretched out over the table. Usually I shoot standing nearly straight up...my cue, however, is level with the table. Just wanted to make sure you understand that the chin on the cue is not necessary, although it works well for some players...notably snooker players.

Scott Lee

catscradle
04-08-2005, 05:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote CJ_ATX:</font><hr> Yes my chin is right on the cue. I have always had my chin down, lower is better....right?
Good luck
<hr /></blockquote>

CJ_ATX...This is absolutely not true! It makes NO difference how high or low you get over the cuestick. The important factor, is that the swing is natural, and, as you mentioned, the cuestick is as level as reasonable. The only time you'll see with my chin on the cue, is if I am stretched out over the table. Usually I shoot standing nearly straight up...my cue, however, is level with the table. Just wanted to make sure you understand that the chin on the cue is not necessary, although it works well for some players...notably snooker players.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Will you please come tell my APA captain that so he'll leave me alone. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan
04-08-2005, 07:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Bob,
Thanks for a realistic point of view.
I think the term pendulum is used more to describe the direction of the stroking arm rather than the actual motion. Whether or not a clock pendulum stops (pauses) has nothing to do with what we do when stroking a cue.
It's the describes the path we follow, not the exact physical motion.
Arguing this point doesn't make sense. You and I both know that a pause is necessary for a smooth stroke. I think I would rather have a better stroke than win an arguement on a small technicality. That's why I have a pause. If the clock doesn't have one, so what? The clock isn't trying to make the 9-ball.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

That's correct. I think Cane missed my statement that "No one is saying that the ideal pendulum mimics the ideal pool stroke".

SpiderMan

dr_dave
04-08-2005, 08:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
A "pause" is a finite (i.e., non zero) amount of time when the speed is 0 (i.e., the cue stick is not moving). For example, Allison Fisher "pauses" for about 1-2 seconds. With a continous motion (e.g., as with a free swinging pendulum), there is no pause; although, because the stick is moving so slowly just before and after the transistion, it seems like there is a "pause."<hr /></blockquote>
I'll take your statement on it's face about free swinging pendulums and assume it is true. The rub is that the arm going through a stroke is not by any stretch a free swinging pendulum. There is a lot of physiology interferring with the pure physics. In the case of a free swing pendulum the force of gravity is continuous and uni-directional and the pendulum is just reacting to it. In the case of moving a cue through it's motion the force imposed upon the cue by the arm has to be reversed, this cannot possibly be done in an "instant" no matter how well coordinated the stroker is. I think Randy is still right there must be a pause, however short it may be, due to physiology not physics.<hr /></blockquote>
Let's forget about a free-swinging pendulum for now. I brought this up only because it is easy to visualize and understand, and the physics is well understood. There is no "pause" in pendulum motion; although, as you know, it can be very difficult to convince people otherwise.

I still claim that if a real person has a smooth and continuous stroke, with no deliberate "pause," then it is possible (even likely) that the cue stick accelerates gradually through the transition point, with the cue stick speed passing through zero only for an "instant" (i.e., with no "pause"). In fact, TP A.9 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/index.html) provides experimental proof! The plots show actual acceleration measurements of a continuous ("pause-less") stroke of a pro three-cushion player. If there were a pause, the acceleration curves would have a flat-line horizontal segment at zero. The curves don't exhibit any flatness because this person's stroke is totally smooth and continuous (i.e., uninterrupted by any pause). For more information see my previous post on this topic (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=187178&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=&amp;PHPSESSID=).

Concerning physiology, I think the role of the biceps and triceps is much more complicated than people think. I think the biceps and triceps have antagonistic interaction during most a the stroke (even during a deliberate "pause"). The biceps contributes more during cue stick acceleration (during the forward stroke), and the triceps contributes more during deceleration (during the back stroke), but I suspect both muscles have significant activity during the entire stroke (especially at the beginning of motion after a deliberate "pause"). I have some buddies in a Lab on campus with EMG equipment for monitoring muscle activity. Maybe I'll bring a cue stick to their Lab one day and take some biceps and triceps measurements to show each muscle's activity during different types of strokes. I'll post an update message if and when I get this data.

Regards,
Dr. Dave

dr_dave
04-08-2005, 08:47 AM
Bob,

Excellent summary! I agree that it is pointless to continue to debate the terminology. What's important is having an accurate and repeatable stroke; and if people can improve their stroke with a certain type of coaching, then that coaching is good.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> Gentlemen, I am an engineer too, and I never thought I'd see the day when other engineers made me go "Geez!!!!!". I think we got way off of the point and, for once (oh, it pains me to say this) too deep into definitions of physics and terminology.

The plain simple fact is this... IN A STROKE, a pause, no matter how small, how insignigicant, or if you want to graph it, how close to zero the curve is, or how little or long a duration it stays on the zero line, is an absolute in playing pool. You cannot make the cue go forward without first STOPPING it's rearward motion (the backstroke)... let's not think in terms of a pendulum, let's think in terms of this straight stick, going back, then forth. The term "PAUSE" is that time when it changes direction and in order to change direction it must stop at the transition. NOW, we're not taking about something travelling in an arc, we're taking about linear motion.

If I were teaching a Physics class, I probably wouldn't use the word pause, but I'm not... I'm teaching pool. Pause is a ubiquitous term for the transition between the backstroke and forward stroke. Can we agree on that, at least, and drop the banter about terminology? Let's just pretend for a second that we can do this... now then, why is a pause necessary? Well, because our arm is NOT a pendulum that depends on strictly gravity for it's motion, it's a machine driven by two very very VERY terribly tuned machines called the bicep and tricep. If we don't stop our rearward motion before we begin our forward motion, then we don't have the same situation we do in a MODEL pendulum, we have two distinct and relatively hard to control groups of muscles fighting each other. Take the cue back with the tricep, relax, take it forward with the bicep. If you don't have that "relax" part in there, hmmm...let's call it a pause, then the bicep and tricep are working at the same time... I feel trouble brewing here... two sets of muscles working against each other. Sounds kind of like a tug of war, doesn't it... do you want a tug of war happening in the middle of your stroke? I don't know, maybe some do want that, but I don't... so I'll go back, relax and call that moment of muscle relaxation, however long OR brief in duration, a PAUSE. Hell, I could call it a Three-Eared JackRabbit if I wanted to, as long as it is there and preventing me from trying to make the tricep and bicep work at the same time. You can argue back and forth for days whether a "pendulum" reaches zero for more than an instant or NOT, but we are NOT talking about a mechanical pendulum, which is a very simple machine, we are taking about a STROKE made by a human body, probably the most complex machines that ever existed. For that machine to work properly and most efficiently, it CANNOT fight itself... no pause (or instantaneous moment of zero accelleration) and you have physical conflict between two muscle groups. Hey, as long as we're going to have our bodies fighting themselves, let's grip the cue so tight that it turns the butt of the wood blue, so now we have a half a dozen other muscle groups working at the same time. Nah... if we did that, we'd quit this game for frustration and take up something that's less frustrating, like, oh, I don't know... computers...

Gotta run... tournament in an hour!

Later,
Bob
<hr /></blockquote>

CJ_ATX
04-08-2005, 09:23 AM
Your right its not necessary to have your chin on the cue, then again its not necessary to keep your eyes open while you shoot if your that good. Most of us are not that good. So while being down low, promotes good fundamentals...
1) staying down on your shot
2) aiming the cue like a rifle
3) good follow through

standing almost strait up is, in my opinion not the best thing to do for pocketing balls. I think that opens up alot of bad habits. Keep in mind my opinion doesn't me squat...

Good luck...!!!

recoveryjones
04-08-2005, 10:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote CJ_ATX:</font><hr> Yes my chin is right on the cue. I have always had my chin down, lower is better....right?
Good luck
<hr /></blockquote>



CJ_ATX...This is absolutely not true! It makes NO difference how high or low you get over the cuestick. The important factor, is that the swing is natural, and, as you mentioned, the cuestick is as level as reasonable. The only time you'll see with my chin on the cue, is if I am stretched out over the table. Usually I shoot standing nearly straight up...my cue, however, is level with the table. Just wanted to make sure you understand that the chin on the cue is not necessary, although it works well for some players...notably snooker players.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

I agree with you on the height over the stick thing.Succesful pool and good strokes can be accomplished at various heights.Nine ball is a game that requires more power shots than snooker and it seems a lot of the men are a few inches at least above the cue stick.Apparently being a little more upright allows the arm a little more free movement and therefore power can be more easily generated.

With your more upright stance Scott , do you grip the cue more towards the middle as opposed to nearer the end of the butt which is recommended for chin on the stick players?

Just kinda of wondering about your thoughts on grip location when it comes to upright stances as compared to chin on the stick style.I'm sure I read(pool book) somewhere that the hand location should change depending on the height of ones chin over the cue. Thanks,RJ

pooltchr
04-08-2005, 11:09 AM
I believe Scott grips the cue at the point where his forearm is at a 90 degree angle to the floor when he is in the set position. That allows for the straightest linier movement when the tip ends up contacting the cue ball.
Last time I spent any time with him, that's what he was doing.
Steve

catscradle
04-08-2005, 12:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
I still claim that if a real person has a smooth and continuous stroke, with no deliberate "pause," then it is possible (even likely) that the cue stick accelerates gradually through the transition point, with the cue stick speed passing through zero only for an "instant" (i.e., with no "pause"). In fact, TP A.9 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/index.html) provides experimental proof! The plots show actual acceleration measurements of a continuous ("pause-less") stroke of a pro three-cushion player. If there were a pause, the acceleration curves would have a flat-line horizontal segment at zero. The curves don't exhibit any flatness because this person's stroke is totally smooth and continuous (i.e., uninterrupted by any pause).
<hr /></blockquote>

I still don't accept (or dispute) this evidence without some better explaination of how the accelerometer works, and how the test was done. What is the mechanism to measure the acceleration? How sensitive is it? Does it actually meassure the acceleration of the mechanism which may be at the transieion point be operating under influences the cue isn't. It would be more interesting if it were the result of an experiment conducted to measure this effect, not a conclusion draw from the data associated with an experiment designed to measure something else.
Still and all it is nice to see some hard data or I guess more correctly a graph extrapolated from hard data.

[ QUOTE ]

Concerning physiology, I think the role of the biceps and triceps is much more complicated than people think. ...<hr /></blockquote>
... not to mention the interaction with other muscles, sinews (sp?), tendons, and other physiological entities.
I agree it even something as seemingly simple as a pool stroke on the neuro-muscular level is extraordinarily complex. That is one of the reasons I agree with Randy's opinion that everybody pauses somewhat.
However, as several people have noted the real question is whether or not a purposeful, noticable pause helps with the stroke or not and our pedantics aren't really contributing to that questions so I'll cease now.

Fred Agnir
04-08-2005, 12:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> our pedantics aren't really contributing to that questions <hr /></blockquote>I'm sure I can show you a graph that will prove that no pendants were injured during the filming of this thread.

HTH,

Fred &lt;~~~ mental masturbation?

bluey2king
04-08-2005, 01:33 PM
I know a Engineer..*L* around here somewhere!! But if we want a definitive answer...we will have to wait for "One" to tell us the Truth!!....*LOL********
(ducking for cover)

SPetty
04-08-2005, 01:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Fred &lt;~~~ mental masturbation? <hr /></blockquote>If that were true, it would feel better than this... /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

bsmutz
04-08-2005, 03:08 PM
Height over the cue does seem to be a factor for me. I am more consistent the farther down I get on my shots. You will notice that a lot of older players start playing more upright as they get on in years, simply because it is harder/more painful to bend over as far. I think also that once you have mastered the game (as much as anyone can), that you have a better "feel" for shots so that you don't have to be quite as precise in aiming. I know that for "serious" pool you must try to shoot every shot the same, but I think most everyone would take less time and stand more upright on a "gimme" kind of shot where the last ball is in the jaws of the pocket or close to it and getting shape isn't a concern. It would seem reasonable to postulate that whatever it takes to be more consistent is what each individual should do. I don't move my grip hand when I am standing more upright. I think my elbow position may move up or down in relation to my torso, but it seems like my grip stays in pretty much the same place. Of course, it takes time to evaluate the effectiveness of a change in height. Same thing with a pause during the final stroke. I see improvement sometimes with a deliberate pause between the final backstroke and the forward stroke. I still miss sometimes when I do this, though, so it is hard to say how much it helps. It does seem like when I am on a roll or in stroke, that all of the steps of set, pause, freeze, finish are being applied. This is very difficult to be really definitive about, though, as it becomes more of a subconscious process and it gets really hard to look back and see if everything was done correctly. It's easier to remember what I forgot to do, like find the aim point on the object ball or not follow through or feel my elbow drop. Sometimes I just want to forget it all and run around the table pocketing balls as fast as I can. Fortunately those urges get nipped in the bud after the second missed shot or so.

Scott Lee
04-08-2005, 03:11 PM
RC...I grip the cue just the way Pooltcher described. My forearm is at 90 degrees, where my tip would be touching the CB. This varies for most people by height, not by shot.
I change grip positions only for certain extremely soft strokes. I do NOT change grip positions simply because I bend down lower over the cue for some shots.

Also, standing more erect does not contribute to poor fundamentals, like CJ_ATX thinks. Smooth movements, loose grips, and perfect timing are what create a beautiful, repeatable, sustainable stroke. It has nothing to do with how high or low you are over the cue.

Scott Lee

pooltchr
04-08-2005, 07:34 PM
Scott...a bit off topic here, but what are the chances of you being in the Carolinas in October?
Steve

caedos
04-09-2005, 04:22 AM
That certainly seems to be the case, Susan. If the shooter isn't doing something productive with their eyes, the pause tends to be very fast or jerked. With proper visual focus and smooth execution, the timing of the pause seems to vary solely based on what is being done with the eyes. This is only my opinion based on many observations. I'm sure the timing can be trained deliberately without incorporating the eye patterns, but why if the shooter doesn't need to? Even when I keep eyes on the cue ball for a jump or masse, my pause timing is based on whether I look at the whole cue ball or the tip contact patch on the cue ball (instead of the object ball).


c

catscradle
04-09-2005, 06:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> ...
Also, standing more erect does not contribute to poor fundamentals, like CJ_ATX thinks...

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

In some respects I think bending lower can hurt your fundamentals. I know when I'm bent low, my body or the structure of my shoulders or something makes me tend to swerve my grip hand inward as I follow through.

catscradle
04-09-2005, 06:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> our pedantics aren't really contributing to that questions <hr /></blockquote>I'm sure I can show you a graph that will prove that no pendants were injured during the filming of this thread.

HTH,

Fred &lt;~~~ mental masturbation? <hr /></blockquote>

Hell Fred I can hardly speak, leave alone spell. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Actually when I did the post I checked the spelling in dictionary.com and still misspelled it, make that "pedantic" which I know is right because I did a cut and paste this time.

recoveryjones
04-09-2005, 10:03 AM
Yesterday during my practice session,I made it a goal to practice SPFF on every shot.For practice purposes I exagerated the pause to a complete stop for at least a second (perhaps longer) and also exagereated the freeze to a four count.I don't plan on doing this long of pauses in real games,however, I've heard that during practice sessions that it's good to exagerate fundamentals when learning something new and grooving them into your subconscious.Tim White (billiard Sanctuary)reccomends this method of learning.

I also found some very good examples of SPFF while watching some of the snooker stars shoot with online video clips at this link:
http://www.doom2.net/~adamh/snooker/

John Higgins, Steve Davis,Steven hendry and others really incorporate this method of shooting in their games as witnessed by their perfect games (147 pt runs)in snooker.
Iwas watching an old accustats match last night Jeff Carter vs. Mike Massey and noticed that Jeff carter really incorporates SPFF into his game.He even at times does double sets after his warmup strokes. On that particuliar match (1995 Sands Regency) he wins the lag and proceeds to break and run 5 racks in a row.

I think watching guys like him,the snooker stars, and the likes of Allison Fisher will be really helpful to my game and incorporating SPFF.

Imade some nice really smooth strokes with SPFF yesterday (along with some bad ones..LOL) and I can really see the value of it and how potentially settling it might be in pressure situations.I think a healthy balance of good mechanics and feel are the keys to success in this game. RJ

BigRigTom
04-09-2005, 02:39 PM
RJ, I too have been trying this SPFF technique and found pretty much exactly what you describe.
I can honestly say that the positive effects seem to outweight the few times when I totally was off line with a shot.
I also realize that had I not been trying the SPFF I could have still been way off line but not really have any idea why I missed the shot.
Back to studying and more practice for me....

Scott Lee
04-09-2005, 05:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>I think a healthy balance of good mechanics and feel are the keys to success in this game. RJ <hr /></blockquote>

RJ...You now have the "secret" formula! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gifLOL

Scott Lee~ there really is no secret...

One
04-09-2005, 05:09 PM
Pause:
You will always have a pause at the end of the backstroke because something has to stop before it changes to the opposite direction.
What they mean with pause is more than 1/4th second or so.

The best for accuracy is a long enough pause so that the muscles in your biceps and triceps are relaxed with just enough triceps activity to keep the cue at the same position.

The best for speed control is no pause, but accuracy is not as good.

Read more in The optimal pre-strokes (http://poollogics.port5.com/articles/mrx/optimalprestrokes.htm) article.


Finish:
Read The optimal follow through (http://poollogics.port5.com/articles/mrx/optimalfollowthrough.htm) article.


Freeze:
The instructors tell you to freeze after the shot so that you won't start to jump up before you have hit the cueball. After you have hit the cueball you can jump up, but if you concentrate on jumping up after the shot you will have "planned" that and could jump up too early. So it is best to focus on keeping your body still when shooting.

recoveryjones
04-09-2005, 09:59 PM
I just practised again today (6 hrs) using SPFF. After practice I got into a 3 set match winning the first and then losing two in a row.Should have never played the last two sets, much too tired.

Anyways , while I was able to use SPFF in practice, it abandoned me in the money match (or should I say I abandoned it)due to nerves and being too tired.I can see that this SPFF is going to take a little time to groove (especially under pressure)however, I'm determined to stick with it.I might have to take a few beatings...LOL, before it's grooved and starts to pay off. RJ

Qtec
04-09-2005, 10:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote CJ_ATX:</font><hr> Yes my chin is right on the cue. I have always had my chin down, lower is better....right?
Good luck
<hr /></blockquote>

CJ_ATX...This is absolutely not true! It makes NO difference how high or low you get over the cuestick. The important factor, is that the swing is natural, and, as you mentioned, the cuestick is as level as reasonable. The only time you'll see with my chin on the cue, is if I am stretched out over the table. Usually I shoot standing nearly straight up...my cue, however, is level with the table. Just wanted to make sure you understand that the chin on the cue is not necessary, although it works well for some players...notably snooker players.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Scott, have you ever asked yourself the question,
"why do snooker players get down low on the shot?"

Q

Qtec
04-09-2005, 10:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> our pedantics aren't really contributing to that questions <hr /></blockquote>I'm sure I can show you a graph that will prove that no pendants were injured during the filming of this thread.

HTH,

Fred &lt;~~~ mental masturbation? <hr /></blockquote>


"Is there a graph of spin-induced throw based on cut angle somewhere?

Better yet, what cut angle has the most SIT? What has the least? How does a half-ball cut compare based on spin alone?
"Fred &lt;~~~ mental masturbation?"

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q

...whats good for the goose................

randyg
04-10-2005, 04:54 AM
FRED hurts my brain......SPF-randyg

randyg
04-10-2005, 04:56 AM
RJ: A small step back prepares one for a gigantic leap forward.......SPF-randyg

pooltchr
04-10-2005, 05:19 AM
RJ,
One of the most difficult things to do is separate practice from play. Practice time is when you consciously work on things like SPFF...but in a match, you have to just PLAY!..The more you practice this type of thing, the more it will work it's way into your natural game. If you are too focused on your stroke, you aren't thinking about the shot at hand.
The day I returned home from my first class with randyg, I had a league match. My head was full of so much great new information that I just KNEW I was going to win big. As you can imagine, I got waxed!!!! It took a few weeks of practice before SPFF became a natural part of my game. That is where you will see the results.
Don't give up, and know the results may not happen overnight!
Steve

Fred Agnir
04-10-2005, 07:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> our pedantics aren't really contributing to that questions <hr /></blockquote>I'm sure I can show you a graph that will prove that no pendants were injured during the filming of this thread.

HTH,

Fred &lt;~~~ mental masturbation? <hr /></blockquote>


"Is there a graph of spin-induced throw based on cut angle somewhere?

Better yet, what cut angle has the most SIT? What has the least? How does a half-ball cut compare based on spin alone?
"Fred &lt;~~~ mental masturbation?"

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q

...whats good for the goose................
<hr /></blockquote>I'll chalk it up to English as a Second Language. But I'll explain it to you cuz you obviously need it. The word "pedantics" can be defined as "mental masturbation." Some would call it "mental penis swinging."

Asking a physics-related question on pool is not pedantic. Continuously answering based on unrelated field-specific terminology is.

Fred &lt;~~~ wasn't funny the first time, so maybe 'splainin' will help (which could be construed as being pedantic)

recoveryjones
04-10-2005, 12:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> RJ,
One of the most difficult things to do is separate practice from play. Practice time is when you consciously work on things like SPFF...but in a match, you have to just PLAY!..The more you practice this type of thing, the more it will work it's way into your natural game. If you are too focused on your stroke, you aren't thinking about the shot at hand.
The day I returned home from my first class with randyg, I had a league match. My head was full of so much great new information that I just KNEW I was going to win big. As you can imagine, I got waxed!!!! It took a few weeks of practice before SPFF became a natural part of my game. That is where you will see the results.
Don't give up, and know the results may not happen overnight!
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for the encouragment.

Jack Nicklaus used to say about learning new things in golf..."Give the medicine some time to work."

For the most part I used SPFF really well in practice. While attempting to use it in a money match...up came the head...where's the freeze it that..lol. Also in practice my transistions after the pause were smooth and effective.Under pressure they were jerky and at times forgotten.

I'm determined to let the medicine work,however, and I'm off to my first lesson tonight with a BCA instructor. RJ

recoveryjones
04-10-2005, 05:07 PM
I see Tiger Woods finally won another major after making some swing changes. Kinda gives me some incentitive to make some changes with my stroke.

two steps backwards to go one forward......looks like a great deal to me.RJ

One
04-10-2005, 05:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> I see Tiger Woods finally won another major after making some swing changes. Kinda gives me some incentitive to make some changes with my stroke.

two steps backwards to go one forward......looks like a great deal to me.RJ <hr /></blockquote>

It's not good to try to find the optimal stroke if you are not good enough for finding it yet. You constantly need to improve all parts of the game so nothing lags behind. It is stupid and a waste of time to focus only on 1 thing and not improve the rest. Pool is like audio gear, you constantly keep upgrading to better stuff, all the parts need to match for the best sound. The source (CD player) is like the stroke, it is no use having $100000 worth of equipment with a $10 CD player. And it is also a waste to have a $100000 CD player with $10 speakers.

Once all parts of your game matches each other you are ready to "upgrade" your game. So first you have to sell your old audio gear to afford new and better one. This is the period when you take steps back, but then you are buying the new gear and eventually you have all pieces put together. Then you take time to get used to it and start to fine tune it.

I do this the opposite way, I go for the highest level immediately, because I know what the highest level is and what stroke is the best, it is physics and understanding. I start from the highest level and move down until it "matches" the possibility of reaching that level in an acceptable amount of time.

If my stroke is the weakness I improve on it, if my cueball control is the weakness I practice it. I haven't finished my first giant step yet where I can practice the routine and get used to it, because I am not happy with my current skill level, I am just a beginner.

As I said on this forum 6 years ago, I go around the building instead of go through the doors inside.

Rod
04-10-2005, 06:56 PM
RJ, It takes some time. These moves have been taught by competent instructors and used by good players for over a century. It's nothing new, just different ways of verbal communication. Moving ones head is common but as you know, not desirable.

Once it all starts happening naturally, you really don't have to think about it. It just happens as you've been trained and learned by yourself. Not all BCA instructors use the phrase but hopefully they communicate near the same, I do.

A number of years ago (more than 20) I needed to improve my break and accuracy. What I did then was to delay my forward stroke (pause if you will) I just called it "finish my backswing". I was to caught up in hitting the balls hard and rushed the forward swing, big mistake if your timing is off. When your in dead stroke, no problem. LOL

I wasn't sure why I rushed at the time, although now I have a much better picture why it happened. It wasn't like me because I had a very smooth slip stroke. I felt like I could balance a drinking glass on the cue and still draw the ball without spilling a drop. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Well to sum it up the "finish my backswing" carried over to my regular game, not just the break. I must say I've made changes, (more recent about 5 years) including a drastic reduction of my slip stroke. However when I play well my slip stroke comes back like it was always there.

FYI, slip stroke is holding the cue with your bridge hand while sliding your shooting hand back on the cue. That may be short 1", to as much as 6" inches. The cue doesn't move back during this time. It's odd I know but some of us old timers learned a little different. LOL What I teach and what is taught today, I think is a better and simplified method. Give it some time, if your like me when I played a lot, it will happen, guaranteed. Your gonna like it but don't get to caught up and over exaggerate these moves. Try to put it together and keep it a simple "flowing motion". The object obviously is go straight through the c/b and hit it exactly where intended. Only then can you count on the c/b going where intended and make balls. Your gonna love it! Read my tag line.

Rod

Stretch
04-10-2005, 06:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote One:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> I see Tiger Woods finally won another major after making some swing changes. Kinda gives me some incentitive to make some changes with my stroke.

two steps backwards to go one forward......looks like a great deal to me.RJ <hr /></blockquote>

It's not good to try to find the optimal stroke if you are not good enough for finding it yet. You constantly need to improve all parts of the game so nothing lags behind. It is stupid and a waste of time to focus only on 1 thing and not improve the rest. Pool is like audio gear, you constantly keep upgrading to better stuff, all the parts need to match for the best sound. The source (CD player) is like the stroke, it is no use having $100000 worth of equipment with a $10 CD player. And it is also a waste to have a $100000 CD player with $10 speakers.

Once all parts of your game matches each other you are ready to "upgrade" your game. So first you have to sell your old audio gear to afford new and better one. This is the period when you take steps back, but then you are buying the new gear and eventually you have all pieces put together. Then you take time to get used to it and start to fine tune it.

I do this the opposite way, I go for the highest level immediately, because I know what the highest level is and what stroke is the best, it is physics and understanding. I start from the highest level and move down until it "matches" the possibility of reaching that level in an acceptable amount of time.

If my stroke is the weakness I improve on it, if my cueball control is the weakness I practice it. I haven't finished my first giant step yet where I can practice the routine and get used to it, because I am not happy with my current skill level, I am just a beginner.

As I said on this forum 6 years ago, I go around the building instead of go through the doors inside.

<hr /></blockquote>

I don't know, sometimes i think that after a time you have to decide wheather you are an artist? or a scientist.

An artist, while keeping to a relative form is more apt to create by feel and imagination which holds to no rigid set of mechanics. You do whatever it takes in short, whether it's dropping the elbow, snapping the wrist (or holding it riggid), long follow through, short follow through, basicaly millions of tiny adjustments which are useless to restrict to the clasic SPFF. In many cases a feel player can ruin his game with "any" stroke thoughts. The minute an artist thinks mechanicaly it's over.

Scientist can more readily incorperate stroke changes and fundamentls in thier game because of thier disciplined approach, but are more prone to suffer from paralasis by analasis.

When you're just starting out it's way better i think to just keep your stroke simple and your confidence high. Also just let prooven results be your guide. Everyone is different. Despite the best intensions of well meaning experts you will invariably bring your own manourisms to your exicusion anyway.......wait a minuit, that didn't sound right lol. Can't think straight after 4 day's of driveing back from Florida /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.

randyg
04-11-2005, 05:48 AM
ROD: What a great post. Personal insight, thanks....SPF-randyg

Rod
04-11-2005, 07:18 AM
Randy as you know,

Sometimes we use what we have but add other ingredients to compliment the mixture. I dare say it happens to all of us to a certain degree. Problem for many is, sorting and balancing those ingredients. A teaspoon here, a dash there, a pinch for mild seasoning. It needs to be good because, someone has to digest it. LOL

Rod

recoveryjones
04-11-2005, 12:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> RJ, It takes some time. These moves have been taught by competent instructors and used by good players for over a century. It's nothing new, just different ways of verbal communication. Moving ones head is common but as you know, not desirable.

Once it all starts happening naturally, you really don't have to think about it. It just happens as you've been trained and learned by yourself. Not all BCA instructors use the phrase but hopefully they communicate near the same, I do.

A number of years ago (more than 20) I needed to improve my break and accuracy. What I did then was to delay my forward stroke (pause if you will) I just called it "finish my backswing". I was to caught up in hitting the balls hard and rushed the forward swing, big mistake if your timing is off. When your in dead stroke, no problem. LOL

I wasn't sure why I rushed at the time, although now I have a much better picture why it happened. It wasn't like me because I had a very smooth slip stroke. I felt like I could balance a drinking glass on the cue and still draw the ball without spilling a drop. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Well to sum it up the "finish my backswing" carried over to my regular game, not just the break. I must say I've made changes, (more recent about 5 years) including a drastic reduction of my slip stroke. However when I play well my slip stroke comes back like it was always there.

FYI, slip stroke is holding the cue with your bridge hand while sliding your shooting hand back on the cue. That may be short 1", to as much as 6" inches. The cue doesn't move back during this time. It's odd I know but some of us old timers learned a little different. LOL What I teach and what is taught today, I think is a better and simplified method. Give it some time, if your like me when I played a lot, it will happen, guaranteed. Your gonna like it but don't get to caught up and over exaggerate these moves. Try to put it together and keep it a simple "flowing motion". The object obviously is go straight through the c/b and hit it exactly where intended. Only then can you count on the c/b going where intended and make balls. Your gonna love it! Read my tag line.

Rod


<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Rod, I also(sometimes) have a slip stroke when I shoot.Tim White from the Billiard Sanctuary actually teaches it on his dvd's and says it's a good thing.Although it's not for everyone, I will say that if you are using it that you are definitly not gripping the cue too tightly.

Last night I had my first lesson from a BCA instructor.To say the least I was very,very pleased.I had allways been told by others that I had a real nice looking,solid stance.I ,however, thought that I was crowding myself as my right hand would hit my right tit on the following through limiting my follow through to about 4 inches.I allways thought that more follow was better and would end up doing an elbow drop to obtain it.I'd also do slight head lifts at times as I thought I needed to clear my body to get more follow.Even with these flaws I've allways been a good potter.

My instructor set me straight and told me my stance was great and that four inches of follow was more than plenty.
It was really pyschologically rewarding to know that my stance was good, because I was all set to drastically change it.

Later on he had me hitting straight ins using SPFF, stopping my follow where it natuarally stops (right tit) and I was hitting many many crisp shots.I still have a slight elbow drop and slight little head movements, however, before my elbow was flying out to the right on the follow through.Now as I concentrate on finishing at my right nip, my elbow stays much straighter on the following through and the elbow drop is greatly reduced,or eliminated alltogether.

I'm really glad I FINALLY went to see an instructor because my stroke wasn't far off to being a good one and I just needed a little direction and some slight tweeking to get it looking much better.People on these forums have said over and over get an instructor,however, I was much too stubborn to listen.Now I've joined in with the instructor groupies....Get an Instructor...LOL.


I know it's going to take some time to get this SPFF grooved, and to TRUST that my natural finishing point is just fine, however, I'm determined to work on it.

Later on I played some racks against my instructor and shot really,really well commenting him to say your playing like A+.I won't be that bold as to say that, however,I feel that with a concerted effort on my part to ingrain what I've been taught that getting to that status is not an impossibility and is definitley an obtainable goal.As for now I've still got a long-long way to go. Let the journey begin. RJ

SpiderMan
04-11-2005, 12:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> A number of years ago (more than 20) I needed to improve my break and accuracy. What I did then was to delay my forward stroke (pause if you will) I just called it "finish my backswing". I was to caught up in hitting the balls hard and rushed the forward swing, big mistake if your timing is off. When your in dead stroke, no problem. LOL

I wasn't sure why I rushed at the time, although now I have a much better picture why it happened. It wasn't like me because I had a very smooth slip stroke. I felt like I could balance a drinking glass on the cue and still draw the ball without spilling a drop. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Well to sum it up the "finish my backswing" carried over to my regular game, not just the break. I must say I've made changes, (more recent about 5 years) including a drastic reduction of my slip stroke. However when I play well my slip stroke comes back like it was always there.
Rod<hr /></blockquote>
Rod,

Just this year I also have started incorporating a small amount of deliberate "hang time" on my break. It was some sort of progression, ie I naturally fell into it without trying. Previously, when hitting break speed, I tended to have too much variation in tip placement upon contact with the ball. Now there are very few instances of draw-back or run-through on the break. On the break, tip placement and accuracy seem more critical than speed control, provided you have "enough" speed.

Curiously, at normal "play" speeds of stroke, I don't seem to benefit from deliberate additional hang time. I actually get better speed control when I don't break the rhythm of the warm-up strokes, and my tip placement remains accurate also.

SpiderMan

dr_dave
04-11-2005, 01:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
I still claim that if a real person has a smooth and continuous stroke, with no deliberate "pause," then it is possible (even likely) that the cue stick accelerates gradually through the transition point, with the cue stick speed passing through zero only for an "instant" (i.e., with no "pause"). In fact, TP A.9 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/index.html) provides experimental proof! The plots show actual acceleration measurements of a continuous ("pause-less") stroke of a pro three-cushion player. If there were a pause, the acceleration curves would have a flat-line horizontal segment at zero. The curves don't exhibit any flatness because this person's stroke is totally smooth and continuous (i.e., uninterrupted by any pause).
<hr /></blockquote>
I still don't accept (or dispute) this evidence without some better explaination of how the accelerometer works, and how the test was done. What is the mechanism to measure the acceleration? How sensitive is it? Does it actually meassure the acceleration of the mechanism which may be at the transieion point be operating under influences the cue isn't.<hr /></blockquote>
I think all of your questions are answered in the discussion thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=183377&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=) dealing with this topic. If not, maybe you can post some follow-on questions there. The experimenters have participated in the discussion in the past and can answer your questions directly. If you want to see technical details about the sensor used, see the technical data part of the thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=183786&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1). The acceleration readings are very good during the pre-impact strokes and during the post-impact vibrations. The only data missing concerns the interesting dynamics that occur during cue ball impact (which lasts only about 0.001 second). The sensor electronics is not fast enough to capture accurate data during the extremely short contact period.

Happy reading,
Dr. Dave

Bob_Jewett
04-11-2005, 10:23 PM
&gt; I noticed that the BCA instructors and instructors from the
&gt; Billiard Sanctuary all put great emphasis on Set-Pause-Finish-Freeze
&gt; on their teaching to their students.

I think that "all" is too inclusive here.

&gt; Pause:
&gt; A definite brief COMPLETE STOP after your practice strokes that takes
&gt; place on the completion of your final back swing.This gives your
&gt; tricep a chance to stop being active and gives way to your bicep
&gt; to complete the forward stroke.

Contrary to what some have said here, to bring the motion of the stick to a complete stop for any length of time -- say even 0.01 second -- requires a very, very different set of muscle motions than a continuous stroke in which the stick is at zero velocity for zero time. Let me try with an example: Jump up in the air and pause at the top. Can you do it? Not unless you are a very special person or you grab onto a chandelier. Sure, at some point in time your vertical speed goes to zero, but it cannot be prolonged unless something very complicated happens.

A pause on the backswing is not the same as reversing direction. Physically the motion and the operation of the muscles are very different. In order to stop at the end of the backswing, you must accelerate the stick back from the cue ball, and then apply some forward force to decellerate the cue to a stop. While it is stopped in position, you must actually apply some force backwards because otherwise the pendulum action would start the stick forward. When you end the pause, forward force is applied right up until impact (on a good stroke).

Compare this to a continuous stroke: the stick is accelerated back from the ball, and then the relatively small backward force is changed to a large forward force, which decellerates the stick to a stop. But the forward force is not reduced for the pause, but instead is increased to bring the stick forward for the power stroke.

With a pause, the stroke is: pull back, push forward a little to stop, pull back slightly to keep the stick paused, change to forward force for the final stroke. With a continuous stroke, there is a backward force, which is reversed to a forward force which stops the backward motion and continues to drive the stick forward. These two types of stroke are fundamentally different.

There are champions who play much better than you and I ever will who do not pause, ever. And there are champions who do pause.

Rod
04-11-2005, 11:43 PM
Marty,

It will probably carry over into your normal game, you'll see if it already hasen't. No matter how small or insugnificant it may seem it helps to slow down. Usually where it's noticed first (at least I do by watching) is the backswing. I'll watch someone quick to bring the cue back in the begining, then when I see them playing better it always comes back slower.

I use to have an old Golf mag from the 70's. An instructor/Pro stated bring it back low and slow for the first 18". Most amatures snach the club back way to fast, including me at the time. By starting slower and coiling up my body my game greatly improved. Just one benefit, aside from keeping the club on plane (read cue) was better balance and starting the club back on plane. The same applies in a pool stroke, any quick moves (cue back to fast) may hinder a smooth forward progression.

I'm glad to hear you've incorporated this move, because it can't help but lead you in the right direction. I know you, you engineers think way to much. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Slice it or dice it anyway you choose but you'll see it leads you in the right direction. It will be you in the end, not because I said so or anyone else. You'll just use what works for you.

Rod, BTW my email addy has changed, you or anyone else interested pm me for a new one.

recoveryjones
04-11-2005, 11:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> &gt; I noticed that the BCA instructors and instructors from the
&gt; Billiard Sanctuary all put great emphasis on Set-Pause-Finish-Freeze
&gt; on their teaching to their students.

I think that "all" is too inclusive here.

&gt; Pause:
&gt; A definite brief COMPLETE STOP after your practice strokes that takes
&gt; place on the completion of your final back swing.This gives your
&gt; tricep a chance to stop being active and gives way to your bicep
&gt; to complete the forward stroke.

Contrary to what some have said here, to bring the motion of the stick to a complete stop for any length of time -- say even 0.01 second -- requires a very, very different set of muscle motions than a continuous stroke in which the stick is at zero velocity for zero time. Let me try with an example: Jump up in the air and pause at the top. Can you do it? Not unless you are a very special person or you grab onto a chandelier. Sure, at some point in time your vertical speed goes to zero, but it cannot be prolonged unless something very complicated happens.

A pause on the backswing is not the same as reversing direction. Physically the motion and the operation of the muscles are very different. In order to stop at the end of the backswing, you must accelerate the stick back from the cue ball, and then apply some forward force to decellerate the cue to a stop. While it is stopped in position, you must actually apply some force backwards because otherwise the pendulum action would start the stick forward. When you end the pause, forward force is applied right up until impact (on a good stroke).

Compare this to a continuous stroke: the stick is accelerated back from the ball, and then the relatively small backward force is changed to a large forward force, which decellerates the stick to a stop. But the forward force is not reduced for the pause, but instead is increased to bring the stick forward for the power stroke.

With a pause, the stroke is: pull back, push forward a little to stop, pull back slightly to keep the stick paused, change to forward force for the final stroke. With a continuous stroke, there is a backward force, which is reversed to a forward force which stops the backward motion and continues to drive the stick forward. These two types of stroke are fundamentally different.

There are champions who play much better than you and I ever will who do not pause, ever. And there are champions who do pause. <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Bob, When you say ALL is much too inclusive regarding SPFF as far as Billiards Sanctuary and BCA instructors go,I'm pretty sure they're ALL schooled to teach those methods by the master instructors.Are they not?Who are these teachers within those two factions that don't teach SPFF?

Having said that, I'm sure that if a student came up to anyone of them flashing some $$$$ and said "I want some instruction, but by no means I'm not going to stop my continious back and forth motion and implement any sort of pause." Iimagine some(or all) instructors will work with the student within the parameters of his preferred stroke style.

As far as the "All pool players pause." theory"Because it's impossible not too." I can see the argument (or their view point) in that, as they bring up some valid points. That defintion of a pause,however ,is not a pause to me, at least as taught by the Billiard sanctuary and BCA. That type of pause won't produce the same kind of results (as you mentioned)and fullfill the purposes that they want a student to benifit from that a more definite pause would offer.I agree with your assement that the muscle movements definitly have to be somewhat different.

It's great to see all the different view points on this subject that have ben posted so far. I also agree with you that there are great champions with slight,( or as you think,None?) or distinctive pauses in this sport.

I just watched (today) an old accu-stats match of Buddy Hall and Keith McCready and that video validates your points on pause and no-pause(or next to nothing?) champions.That particuliar match went 11-10 to the eventual (KM) winner.RJ

Rod
04-12-2005, 12:10 AM
RJ,

When you get it dialed in, it's heaven. When you need it most, you deliver. A strong mental attitude certainly helps and practicing fundamentals (basic I know but there isn't a short cut). Keep at it, it is what you want.

Glad to here your session went well, it sounds like you and your instructor communicate well together. I just throw in my two bits and try to help. Go back slow, it makes forward progression much easier.

Rod

catscradle
04-12-2005, 04:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
Happy reading,
Dr. Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks, now I've got something to do with all that spare time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

catscradle
04-12-2005, 04:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>
... I'm pretty sure they're ALL schooled to teach those methods by the master instructors...

<hr /></blockquote>

Hmmmmm, sounds like a conspiracy to me. Think maybe the Knights Templar are behind this SPF thing? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

catscradle
04-12-2005, 04:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> &gt; ...
Contrary to what some have said here, to bring the motion of the stick to a complete stop for any length of time -- say even 0.01 second -- requires a very, very different set of muscle motions than a continuous stroke in which the stick is at zero velocity for zero time. Let me try with an example: Jump up in the air and pause at the top. Can you do it? Not unless you are a very special person or you grab onto a chandelier. Sure, at some point in time your vertical speed goes to zero, but it cannot be prolonged unless something very complicated happens.
<hr /></blockquote>

Bob,
You and Dr. Dave are definitely better educated than me and quite possibly more intelligent, but I just don't buy what your selling on this point. It doesn't require the action of muscles to stop the backstroke, all it requires is the cessation of action by the muscles causing the backward motion. Other forces (gravity, friction) will cause the cue to stop moving, until the forward motion commences no positive action is required by the muscles other than keeping the hand curled. It is not at all comparable with jumping in the air, jumping in the air is done in the same plane as and opposed to gravity as soon as the upward force imposed by the leg muscles diminishes gravity takes over immediately. It really is comparing apples and oranges.
I don't know if Randy is correct when he says everybody must stop on the backstroke, but it seems intuitively likely to me. The comparisons to a pendulum and jumping in the air just aren't adequate to support your position that a pauseless reversal of direction can occur. It may for all practical purposes be pauseless, but I really can't say that any evidence presented thus far convinces me Randy's statement is correct or wrong.
Now whether or not a purposeful pause is a good thing, I don't know but I'm willing to check it out.

pooltchr
04-12-2005, 05:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> &gt; A pause on the backswing is not the same as reversing direction. Physically the motion and the operation of the muscles are very different. In order to stop at the end of the backswing, you must accelerate the stick back from the cue ball, and then apply some forward force to decellerate the cue to a stop. While it is stopped in position, you must actually apply some force backwards because otherwise the pendulum action would start the stick forward. When you end the pause, forward force is applied right up until impact (on a good stroke).

<hr /></blockquote>
Bob,
You state you must accelerate through the back swing. While some acceleration is required to start the back swing, to you think constant acceleration on the back swing is important? What difference does the speed of the backswing have on the forward stroke? Regardless of the amount of pause, would you agree that the forward stroke must start from "zero speed"?

You also stated that the forward force stops upon impact. I must disagree. If the forward force stops at impact, the cue would not travel beyond the impact point. The forward force must continue until the stroke comes to a natural stop. Likewise for the back stroke. back force continues until the backward motion ends.

Since there are two separate motions and forces involved, and one has nothing to do with the other, doesn't it make sense to have that small pause between two opposing motions? I believe the only purpose of a back stroke is to get your grip hand into position to begin the forward stroke. Do you have a different theory?
Steve

recoveryjones
04-12-2005, 06:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> RJ,

When you get it dialed in, it's heaven. When you need it most, you deliver. A strong mental attitude certainly helps and practicing fundamentals (basic I know but there isn't a short cut). Keep at it, it is what you want.

Glad to here your session went well, it sounds like you and your instructor communicate well together. I just throw in my two bits and try to help. Go back slow, it makes forward progression much easier.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Rod, The guy is only a mediocre player himself ,so I was sceptical. We do have two teaching professionals in town here Paul Potier and John Horsfall.

This guy is fairly fresh out of school and trained by Billiard Digests Randy G. When I noticed a reguliar Billiards Digest name, I thought I'd keep things in the family /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm mainly there to fine tune my stroke with video analysis as I've got so much information (books, videos) on the rest of the game.Were practising in a Billiard store after hours on a brand new Black Crown and we play a few racks after the lesson. It's total isolation as compared to a pool hall and its a perfect situation for the student.I'm committed to at least 6 more lessons and yes he is a good communicator. I'll keep ya posted. RJ

dr_dave
04-12-2005, 07:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Is there a graph of spin-induced throw based on cut angle somewhere?<hr /></blockquote>
See my message to Fred (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=186596&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=&amp;PHPSESSID=) on the "Spin Throw Graph" thread. Also, I hope to do an accurate analysis soon and post the results.

Regards,
Dave

Qtec
04-12-2005, 08:30 AM
Dave, if you are going to make a reply, at least read the post!

Q.............needs a 'graph of spin-induced throw based on cut angle 'like a hole in the head..................

dr_dave
04-12-2005, 08:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Dave, if you are going to make a reply, at least read the post!

Q.............needs a 'graph of spin-induced throw based on cut angle 'like a hole in the head.................. <hr /></blockquote>
I'm sorry. Did I miss something? Were you just joking and I was too dense to get it?

Regards,
Dave

christopheradams
04-12-2005, 10:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> &gt; I noticed that the BCA instructors and instructors from the
&gt; Billiard Sanctuary all put great emphasis on Set-Pause-Finish-Freeze
&gt; on their teaching to their students.

I think that "all" is too inclusive here.

&gt; Pause:
&gt; A definite brief COMPLETE STOP after your practice strokes that takes
&gt; place on the completion of your final back swing.This gives your
&gt; tricep a chance to stop being active and gives way to your bicep
&gt; to complete the forward stroke.

Contrary to what some have said here, to bring the motion of the stick to a complete stop for any length of time -- say even 0.01 second -- requires a very, very different set of muscle motions than a continuous stroke in which the stick is at zero velocity for zero time. Let me try with an example: Jump up in the air and pause at the top. Can you do it? Not unless you are a very special person or you grab onto a chandelier. Sure, at some point in time your vertical speed goes to zero, but it cannot be prolonged unless something very complicated happens.

A pause on the backswing is not the same as reversing direction. Physically the motion and the operation of the muscles are very different. In order to stop at the end of the backswing, you must accelerate the stick back from the cue ball, and then apply some forward force to decellerate the cue to a stop. While it is stopped in position, you must actually apply some force backwards because otherwise the pendulum action would start the stick forward. When you end the pause, forward force is applied right up until impact (on a good stroke).

<hr /></blockquote>

Great explaination of similairity of jumping in the air and the pause in the stroke.

pooltchr
04-12-2005, 12:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote christopheradams:</font><hr>

Great explaination of similairity of jumping in the air and the pause in the stroke. <hr /></blockquote>

How do you see a similarity? I can easily have a pause at the end of my backstroke, but I've been trying all day, and just can't seem to get any hang time when I jump in the air. (The people I work with are starting to look at me kinda funny!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif)
Steve

Bob_Jewett
04-12-2005, 02:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>...
Hi Bob, When you say ALL is much too inclusive regarding SPFF as far as Billiards Sanctuary and BCA instructors go,I'm pretty sure they're ALL schooled to teach those methods by the master instructors.Are they not?... <hr /></blockquote>
There are now a few hundred BCA-certified instructors. There are individual teaching styles and curricula. Some Master Instructors don't even use the BCA Instructor's Manual for training.

Scott Lee
04-12-2005, 02:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> [There are now a few hundred BCA-certified instructors. There are individual teaching styles and curricula. Some Master Instructors don't even use the BCA Instructor's Manual for training. <hr /></blockquote>

Bob...IMO, that's because some of us have come up with a BETTER "manual" than what's available from the BCA! Communcation skills and permanent results are the cornerstones for good teaching, regardless of what "sourcebook" one uses.

Scott

Bob_Jewett
04-12-2005, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>... You also stated that the forward force stops upon impact. I must disagree. If the forward force stops at impact, the cue would not travel beyond the impact point. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, actually Newton pointed out a long time ago that an object in motion stays in motion unless a force is applied that stops that motion. What you say implies that when someone takes their foot off the gas pedal, the car stops instantaneously. That's not what happens to my car.

You need to think on this some more. Force, velocity and acceleration are all very different things, and it seems to me that you are confusing the three of them. You might try drawing out the three of them along with the position of the cue stick during a stroke -- plot how each of them vary with time. I think that will make my point clearer.

Bob_Jewett
04-12-2005, 02:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>... Bob...IMO, that's because some of us have come up with a BETTER "manual" than what's available from the BCA! <hr /></blockquote>
If in fact there is something better, I'm disappointed that the BCA has failed to adopt it. Why hasn't the Instructor's Committee adopted it?

Scott Lee
04-12-2005, 02:49 PM
Bob...If and when you figure out how to cut through all the political B.S. within the BCA, you will have really accomplished something! Best wishes...

Scott

Bob_Jewett
04-12-2005, 03:34 PM
&gt; ... It doesn't require the action of muscles to stop the backstroke,
&gt; all it requires is the cessation of action by the muscles causing
&gt; the backward motion. Other forces (gravity, friction) will cause
&gt; the cue to stop moving, until the forward motion commences no
&gt; positive action is required by the muscles ...

Whether this is true or not depends on the speed of the backstroke, and the amount of friction in the arm. Forward force may or may not be required to come to a pause, and will be required if the backstroke is above a certain speed. Some players have swift backstrokes.

&gt; I don't know if Randy is correct when he says everybody must stop
&gt; on the backstroke, but it seems intuitively likely to me.

I think ten minutes of observation will show otherwise. On many strokes, the speed of the stick is zero only for a zero length of time.

&gt; The comparisons to a pendulum and jumping in the air just aren't
&gt; adequate to support your position that a pauseless reversal of
&gt; direction can occur.

Well, maybe. But draw out the plots of acceleration, speed and position of the stroke as you imagine it -- with and without a pause -- and see if there are major differences. I think there are.

randyg
04-12-2005, 03:36 PM
Hi Bob Jewett: The BCA Instructors Committee has not seen any thing new. When will we have it?.....SPF-randyg

randyg
04-12-2005, 03:39 PM
Hi Bob Jewett: "I think ten minutes of observation will show otherwise. On many strokes, the speed of the stick is zero only for a zero length of time."

So when is Zero a speed?....SPF-randyg

Bob_Jewett
04-12-2005, 03:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>... Since there are two separate motions and forces involved, and one has nothing to do with the other, doesn't it make sense to have that small pause between two opposing motions? I believe the only purpose of a back stroke is to get your grip hand into position to begin the forward stroke. Do you have a different theory?
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
I'm not a sports kinesiologist, and I suspect that no one here is either.

There is a good argument for a rapid backswing and no pause. But like the other arguments I've heard on this topic, it's all handwaving.

Does a pitcher stop his motion when his hand is all the way back? Is the stroke a smooth, throwing motion? When walking, putting your left foot down and picking your right foot up are separate motions. Would it be good to pause between them? In the 1800's, people thought horses could never have all four feet off the ground or they would fall down. Muybridge and Leland Stanford Sr. proved them wrong. There is much that is intuitively obvious that is pitifully false.

tateuts
04-12-2005, 03:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Dave, if you are going to make a reply, at least read the post!

Q.............needs a 'graph of spin-induced throw based on cut angle 'like a hole in the head.................. <hr /></blockquote>

If I ever ask for a spin induced cut throw graph, please, please give me a hole in the head.

Chris

Bob_Jewett
04-12-2005, 03:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> ... So when is Zero a speed? <hr /></blockquote>
I guess you treat stop signs much as we do here in California.

But seriously, when something isn't moving it has zero speed. This is pretty basic to analysis of mechanics. It's an important concept, especially in situations that involve static and sliding friction.

Bob_Jewett
04-12-2005, 04:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Hi Bob Jewett: The BCA Instructors Committee has not seen any thing new. When will we have it?.....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>
Well, Scott was saying above that some instructor trainers use something better than the present BCA Manual. As for the SFBA, I think we sent in quite a bit of stuff on various things to add/change, but there has been no response from the Committee. I thought a new edtion of the Manual was in progress, and the current version is no longer in print. Of course this last point makes it hard to use the current manual in instructor training.

Scott Lee
04-12-2005, 04:22 PM
Bob...I was talking about the manual you use in your school, as well as the manual that Cue Tech has developed (and continues to improve several times a year). I haven't seen what Bob Radford uses. I like your stuff, but for my methods, I prefer the Cue Tech book (until my OWN comes out! LMAO). JMO

Scott Lee

dr_dave
04-12-2005, 05:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>... You also stated that the forward force stops upon impact. I must disagree. If the forward force stops at impact, the cue would not travel beyond the impact point. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, actually Newton pointed out a long time ago that an object in motion stays in motion unless a force is applied that stops that motion. What you say implies that when someone takes their foot off the gas pedal, the car stops instantaneously. That's not what happens to my car.

You need to think on this some more. Force, velocity and acceleration are all very different things, and it seems to me that you are confusing the three of them. You might try drawing out the three of them along with the position of the cue stick during a stroke -- plot how each of them vary with time. I think that will make my point clearer. <hr /></blockquote>

Another concept that might help with this point is:

When a heavier object (e.g., the cue stick or a large SUV) hits a lighter object (e.g., the cue ball or a sub-compact import), the heavier object still retains some of its speed after impact.

Dr. Dave

Qtec
04-13-2005, 08:58 AM
I,ve been biting my lip so much that the blood is running down my chin and is now dripping onto my new denims. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Ok, a bit of an exaggeration on my part, but reasonably close to the truth.

<font color="red"> "Hi Bob, When you say ALL is much too inclusive regarding SPFF as far as Billiards Sanctuary and BCA instructors go,I'm pretty sure they're ALL schooled to teach those methods by the master instructors.Are they not?Who are these teachers within those two factions that don't teach SPFF?"</font color>

SPFF, as I,m sure RG has already said, is a guideline. It provides a mental picture to the student about what should be hapening on the stroke. You might as well call it PPSP, ie Pause, Pause, Shoot, Pause. I think that would be also an accurate description. Its called a training aid. Obviously you have never taught, so you dont realise how difficult it is to get a student to do exactly what you say.
Although I hope], most instructors adhere to the same basic principals, there are many different methods being used to bring this info to the student. You do what you have to do to make contact.

<font color="red"> "Having said that, I'm sure that if a student came up to anyone of them flashing some $$$$ and said "I want some instruction, but by no means I'm not going to stop my continious back and forth motion and implement any sort of pause." Iimagine some(or all) instructors will work with the student within the parameters of his preferred stroke style."</font color>


As an instructor, I take that as an insult! I,ll bet there is not one instructor on this board that does it for the money. I personally do it for one reason, the satisfaction that I get from seeing a student improve and knowing that I did a good job. I,ll bet that all instructors would give free lessons all the time if they could, but we all have to make a living.

BTW, You can only teach someone if they are open and willing to learn.

....the artist formerly know as Q..................

Stretch
04-13-2005, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> I,ve been biting my lip so much that the blood is running down my chin and is now dripping onto my new denims. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Ok, a bit of an exaggeration on my part, but reasonably close to the truth.

<font color="red"> "Hi Bob, When you say ALL is much too inclusive regarding SPFF as far as Billiards Sanctuary and BCA instructors go,I'm pretty sure they're ALL schooled to teach those methods by the master instructors.Are they not?Who are these teachers within those two factions that don't teach SPFF?"</font color>

SPFF, as I,m sure RG has already said, is a guideline. It provides a mental picture to the student about what should be hapening on the stroke. You might as well call it PPSP, ie Pause, Pause, Shoot, Pause. I think that would be also an accurate description. Its called a training aid. Obviously you have never taught, so you dont realise how difficult it is to get a student to do exactly what you say.
Although I hope], most instructors adhere to the same basic principals, there are many different methods being used to bring this info to the student. You do what you have to do to make contact.

<font color="red"> "Having said that, I'm sure that if a student came up to anyone of them flashing some $$$$ and said "I want some instruction, but by no means I'm not going to stop my continious back and forth motion and implement any sort of pause." Iimagine some(or all) instructors will work with the student within the parameters of his preferred stroke style."</font color>


As an instructor, I take that as an insult! I,ll bet there is not one instructor on this board that does it for the money. I personally do it for one reason, the satisfaction that I get from seeing a student improve and knowing that I did a good job. I,ll bet that all instructors would give free lessons all the time if they could, but we all have to make a living.

BTW, You can only teach someone if they are open and willing to learn.

....the artist formerly know as Q..................


<hr /></blockquote>

"guideline" Thankyou Q. Good teachers also happen to be good students. I've given great advice, and i mean true nuggets to players in desperate need of said advice lol. and they just don't want to take the lifeline. Such is life, i don't even bother anymore. Instead i've been pretty successful in recognizeing a good student, but in all seriousness they are rare. It takes commitment and a great additude and not just a little discipline thrown in. That dosn't sound like the normal milue of Pool Hall patrons i'm seeing out there. I'd love to have a protege. What good is it to play this game your whole life and collect a mountain of books, tapes, cues, knowledge, the works, if you can't pass it down. Giveing it away to the unworthy only cheapens what i chose for my passion. Selling it is not much better IMO unless your a teacher by proffession or calling. It just makes me happy when i see a good student and i see the good results with a happy player. So i'm down with just showing up doing my best and let the cue do what it will. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.~~lots of great students on here of ALL levels!~~

woody_968
04-13-2005, 06:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> As an instructor, I take that as an insult! I,ll bet there is not one instructor on this board that does it for the money. <hr /></blockquote>

Tap Tap Tap. I have spent a considerable amount of money over the last few years learning how to teach this game and improve my own. I am just now starting to take students and I know it will be a long time before I make my money back, let alone make a proffit. So I sure am NOT in it for the money LOL. I am doing it for the same reasons the artist formerly known as Q has mentioned. But also because I see so many people in my area that have played for years at the same level. I hear them say "I have been playing for X number of years and still dont play any better". I figure the more people that can learn to play at a decent level, and the faster they can learn to see improvement, the more people we will have wanting to play pool.

Lets face it, its a tough game, and if we want people that try it to stick with it there better be instructors around that know how to teach the game.

Woody - does it for the love of the game and not for the money /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

recoveryjones
04-13-2005, 10:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> I,ve been biting my lip so much that the blood is running down my chin and is now dripping onto my new denims. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Ok, a bit of an exaggeration on my part, but reasonably close to the truth.

<font color="red"> "Hi Bob, When you say ALL is much too inclusive regarding SPFF as far as Billiards Sanctuary and BCA instructors go,I'm pretty sure they're ALL schooled to teach those methods by the master instructors.Are they not?Who are these teachers within those two factions that don't teach SPFF?"</font color>

SPFF, as I,m sure RG has already said, is a guideline. It provides a mental picture to the student about what should be hapening on the stroke. You might as well call it PPSP, ie Pause, Pause, Shoot, Pause. I think that would be also an accurate description. Its called a training aid. Obviously you have never taught, so you dont realise how difficult it is to get a student to do exactly what you say.
Although I hope], most instructors adhere to the same basic principals, there are many different methods being used to bring this info to the student. You do what you have to do to make contact.

<font color="red"> "Having said that, I'm sure that if a student came up to anyone of them flashing some $$$$ and said "I want some instruction, but by no means I'm not going to stop my continious back and forth motion and implement any sort of pause." Iimagine some(or all) instructors will work with the student within the parameters of his preferred stroke style."</font color>


As an instructor, I take that as an insult! I,ll bet there is not one instructor on this board that does it for the money. I personally do it for one reason, the satisfaction that I get from seeing a student improve and knowing that I did a good job. I,ll bet that all instructors would give free lessons all the time if they could, but we all have to make a living.

BTW, You can only teach someone if they are open and willing to learn.

....the artist formerly know as Q..................


<hr /></blockquote>

"guideline" Thankyou Q. Good teachers also happen to be good students. I've given great advice, and i mean true nuggets to players in desperate need of said advice lol. and they just don't want to take the lifeline. Such is life, i don't even bother anymore. Instead i've been pretty successful in recognizeing a good student, but in all seriousness they are rare. It takes commitment and a great additude and not just a little discipline thrown in. That dosn't sound like the normal milue of Pool Hall patrons i'm seeing out there. I'd love to have a protege. What good is it to play this game your whole life and collect a mountain of books, tapes, cues, knowledge, the works, if you can't pass it down. Giveing it away to the unworthy only cheapens what i chose for my passion. Selling it is not much better IMO unless your a teacher by proffession or calling. It just makes me happy when i see a good student and i see the good results with a happy player. So i'm down with just showing up doing my best and let the cue do what it will. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.~~lots of great students on here of ALL levels!~~

<hr /></blockquote>

Hi Stretch,

Sorry if I offended you. I wasn't by any means trying to paint a picture that instructors are money hungry
people.The reality of the matter is that it costs $$$ to take lessons,henceforth the $$$ signs.Having said that, there are a few(I know one locally who won't even look at you unless you flash some $$$) that are hungry for dollars, however, probably a great majority(I agree with you) that aren't.I was trying to basically point out that most teachers probably take most students on despite the many contrasting styles.On the other hand there is probably the odd instructor out there that is a my way or the highway sort of guy.Having said all of that I can see that I could have worded things a little better and maybe I wouldn't of been misunderstood in what I was really trying to convey.

Conversing on the internet (via a forum) is an impersonal thing and the true meaning of the message someones trying to convey can be interpeted 5 different ways from 5 different people.I was by no means trying to slam instructors.

Truthfully I agree with you that SPFF is only a guidline and was mearly trying to state that point.I won't argue with you that different teachers present SPFF in different styles.I mearly stated that in my opinion that they all teach it(as far as I know in some shape or form) and you apparently seem to agree with me by your reply.If we basically agree, then your blood is boiling on this matter because quite simply, you've misunderstood me.

Generally speaking lessons do in fact cost money and I don't begrudge people like yourself for charging it for services provided. My instructor paid $2000 to learn from a master instuctor when you factor in hotels ,food,traveling expenses and lesson fees for several long hr days of training. He also spent some good cash on a video recorder and labtop,elephant balls and other training aids to be more effective at what he does.Once again when I used the $$$ signs to convey a point I was trying to make, I could have worded things much better.My sincerest apologies.

Hopefully this clears things up and there's no hard feelings between you,I and other instructors. Personally I just committed to $350 worth of lessons to a BCA instructor and I don't see him as money hungry /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gifRJ

ps.And for the love of the game(after my lesson) I also taught my instructor a few things that I know,free of charge /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Stretch
04-14-2005, 07:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> I,ve been biting my lip so much that the blood is running down my chin and is now dripping onto my new denims. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Ok, a bit of an exaggeration on my part, but reasonably close to the truth.

<font color="red"> "Hi Bob, When you say ALL is much too inclusive regarding SPFF as far as Billiards Sanctuary and BCA instructors go,I'm pretty sure they're ALL schooled to teach those methods by the master instructors.Are they not?Who are these teachers within those two factions that don't teach SPFF?"</font color>

SPFF, as I,m sure RG has already said, is a guideline. It provides a mental picture to the student about what should be hapening on the stroke. You might as well call it PPSP, ie Pause, Pause, Shoot, Pause. I think that would be also an accurate description. Its called a training aid. Obviously you have never taught, so you dont realise how difficult it is to get a student to do exactly what you say.
Although I hope], most instructors adhere to the same basic principals, there are many different methods being used to bring this info to the student. You do what you have to do to make contact.

<font color="red"> "Having said that, I'm sure that if a student came up to anyone of them flashing some $$$$ and said "I want some instruction, but by no means I'm not going to stop my continious back and forth motion and implement any sort of pause." Iimagine some(or all) instructors will work with the student within the parameters of his preferred stroke style."</font color>


As an instructor, I take that as an insult! I,ll bet there is not one instructor on this board that does it for the money. I personally do it for one reason, the satisfaction that I get from seeing a student improve and knowing that I did a good job. I,ll bet that all instructors would give free lessons all the time if they could, but we all have to make a living.

BTW, You can only teach someone if they are open and willing to learn.

....the artist formerly know as Q..................


<hr /></blockquote>

"guideline" Thankyou Q. Good teachers also happen to be good students. I've given great advice, and i mean true nuggets to players in desperate need of said advice lol. and they just don't want to take the lifeline. Such is life, i don't even bother anymore. Instead i've been pretty successful in recognizeing a good student, but in all seriousness they are rare. It takes commitment and a great additude and not just a little discipline thrown in. That dosn't sound like the normal milue of Pool Hall patrons i'm seeing out there. I'd love to have a protege. What good is it to play this game your whole life and collect a mountain of books, tapes, cues, knowledge, the works, if you can't pass it down. Giveing it away to the unworthy only cheapens what i chose for my passion. Selling it is not much better IMO unless your a teacher by proffession or calling. It just makes me happy when i see a good student and i see the good results with a happy player. So i'm down with just showing up doing my best and let the cue do what it will. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.~~lots of great students on here of ALL levels!~~

<hr /></blockquote>

Hi Stretch,

Sorry if I offended you. I wasn't by any means trying to paint a picture that instructors are money hungry
people.The reality of the matter is that it costs $$$ to take lessons,henceforth the $$$ signs.Having said that, there are a few(I know one locally who won't even look at you unless you flash some $$$) that are hungry for dollars, however, probably a great majority(I agree with you) that aren't.I was trying to basically point out that most teachers probably take most students on despite the many contrasting styles.On the other hand there is probably the odd instructor out there that is a my way or the highway sort of guy.Having said all of that I can see that I could have worded things a little better and maybe I wouldn't of been misunderstood in what I was really trying to convey.

Conversing on the internet (via a forum) is an impersonal thing and the true meaning of the message someones trying to convey can be interpeted 5 different ways from 5 different people.I was by no means trying to slam instructors.

Truthfully I agree with you that SPFF is only a guidline and was mearly trying to state that point.I won't argue with you that different teachers present SPFF in different styles.I mearly stated that in my opinion that they all teach it(as far as I know in some shape or form) and you apparently seem to agree with me by your reply.If we basically agree, then your blood is boiling on this matter because quite simply, you've misunderstood me.

Generally speaking lessons do in fact cost money and I don't begrudge people like yourself for charging it for services provided. My instructor paid $2000 to learn from a master instuctor when you factor in hotels ,food,traveling expenses and lesson fees for several long hr days of training. He also spent some good cash on a video recorder and labtop,elephant balls and other training aids to be more effective at what he does.Once again when I used the $$$ signs to convey a point I was trying to make, I could have worded things much better.My sincerest apologies.

Hopefully this clears things up and there's no hard feelings between you,I and other instructors. Personally I just committed to $350 worth of lessons to a BCA instructor and I don't see him as money hungry /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gifRJ

ps.And for the love of the game(after my lesson) I also taught my instructor a few things that I know,free of charge /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Hi RJ. Who! me offended?? Not at all. I think you may have got me confused with Qguy who had spliced up another reply to make some points. Was it yours? Anyway's I'm inocent

recoveryjones
04-14-2005, 06:01 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Sorry Stretch. My reply was in fact made to Qtec.RJ