PDA

View Full Version : someone explain this



06-05-2002, 01:40 AM
how is it that a C player, a male C player is able to beat the number 4 ranked player on the womens tour (helena) and yet has trouble cashing in any Joss tour event, yet the women make thousands of dollars and they might have two women on that tour that can play (karen and allison)

Cueless Joey
06-05-2002, 01:58 AM
Because the women got their act together. The men did not.

06-05-2002, 02:34 AM
because to the general public, pool is a boring game to watch. therefore, they'd rather watch the women than the men.....and is why jeanette is pool's most recognizable celebrity....and is why allison is AT LEAST recognized as "that blond chick"......whereas the general public couldn't recognize a single male player if their life depended on it.

Doctor_D
06-05-2002, 06:18 AM
Good morning:

Unfortunately, I have NO logical explanation for the situation you referenced. However, to take the issue a step further, at a local tournament here in NYC a WPBA Touring Professional was given Two (2) games on the wire against a "B" rated player. Go figure?

Dr. D.

06-05-2002, 06:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Doctor_D:</font><hr> Good morning:

Unfortunately, I have NO logical explanation for the situation you referenced. However, to take the issue a step further, at a local tournament here in NYC a WPBA Touring Professional was given Two (2) games on the wire against a "B" rated player. Go figure?

Dr. D.


<hr></blockquote>

I would have to presume that the 'B' rated player was a male?BS

jjinfla
06-05-2002, 06:42 AM
1) It was a one time occurrence
2) The Joss tour has a lot of high quality players
3) He is an A player masquerading as a C player
4) Helena wasn't really trying to win
5) Men and women shouldn't be compared

Take your pick Jake

BLACKHEART
06-05-2002, 07:03 AM
I suspect thie was a single game &amp; not a race to 4 or 5 or whatever. Anybody can beat anybody else ONE GAME. I feel a woman bashing coming on here...JER

06-05-2002, 11:30 AM
Killer Break,

Although the WPBA talent pool is not incredibly deep, the top 8 or so play very, very well. Helena losing to a C player is a fluke and nothing more. I'd bet on her all day against most A players (but not necessarily against low Open players, with whom she probably plays even.)

- Steve

phil in sofla
06-05-2002, 04:22 PM
Shoot happens, or some phrase like that.

If I have a bag containing 90 white marbles, and 10 black ones, sometimes a blind draw will pull out a black one, although the odds are 9-1 against it. Despite the odds, I wouldn't be all that surprised if that happened.

But if you replace that one, and re-do the draw 100 times, you'll find the results getting closer to what the odds say they should be.

While the better player is 'supposed' to win any given game, and any given set of games, against a worse player, still, that's a probabilistic thing that is only true to 'real' talent differences in the longer run-- longer sets for the match, or multiple matches. In a short race (and even to 7 is a short race), the underdog can still win.

Even a dominating team in baseball, in a 100 game plus winning season, loses 60 games plus, including possibly some to cellar dwelling opponents. Doesn't mean they aren't the better team, or that they wouldn't thoroughly thrash that same opponent over a given stretch of play/

Now, if this C player CONSISTENTLY beat Thornfeldt, we'd have something to discuss. Losing a game or a limited match situation can occur without it meaning much.

Vagabond
06-05-2002, 10:51 PM
Howdy,
It is called 9 ball and any thing can happen.This is the reason why pros are very cautious even when they are playing inferior players.Helena can and will beat men A players most of the times,let alone Bs and Cs.The thing u have described( loosing to a C player is an anomaly.
By the way I am a C player and I can beat every men B player and majority of the men A players.How do u explain this!!!!Cheers
vagabond

TomBrooklyn
06-06-2002, 12:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Vagabond:</font><hr> By the way I am a C player and I can beat every male B player and majority of the male A players. How do u explain this!!!!<hr></blockquote> I have no idea, how do you explain it?

06-06-2002, 12:20 AM
this was not 1 game it was two races to 9 for 200 each and it wasnt even close,that is was bothers me

06-06-2002, 12:30 AM
It has been ENIGMA's experience that 9ball is TONS of luck.
ENIGMA watched a match the other day in which the "better" player couldn't get a roll to save his life.
His opponent missed 14 times in a race to 11. The favorite missed 2 times. Of those 14 times...he left an open shot twice. Every other time....the favorite was kicking. When the favorite broke...and made a ball....he was hooked....when he didn't....the other guy was straight in. When the lesser player broke....it was the exact opposite.
The final score was 11 to 5...in favor of the idiot!

ENIGMA believes that regardless of how strong a player is, they must have luck on their side. Sometimes the luck is like a dark cloud haunting certain people while with others...it's like a sun shining on them.
ENIGMA isn't talking about some of the time...ENIGMA is talking about the majority of the time.

ENIGMA is sure you know people that are consistently "LUCKY" and "UNLUCKY".

Everyone is a victim to both sides of luck. In pool...ESPECIALLY 9ball...there are no guarantees.

That is why the c player can be a world beater for a match.
9ball is a garbage game anyway.


ENIGMA

06-06-2002, 12:49 AM
Hi vagabond, i will play u sum when you come to sincinnatti. i am 12min from Michaels(best action24-7) and 15 from Snookers. 30 from Beechmontbill. If wallett get tired, lodging with private table possible.

No teethjoe no teeth joe

06-06-2002, 01:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Vagabond:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; By the way I am a C player and I can beat every male B player and majority of the male A players. How do u explain this!!!!&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt; I have no idea, how do you explain it? <hr></blockquote>

fair question.

vag???

dan

06-06-2002, 01:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: ENIGMA:</font><hr> It has been ENIGMA's experience that 9ball is TONS of luck.
ENIGMA is sure you know people that are consistently "LUCKY" and "UNLUCKY".



ENIGMA


<hr></blockquote>

well, actually, i don't. i know people who claim luck but, day in and day out, skill wins. even in 9-ball. most really good 9-ballers want longer sets cause they know they can beat luck, if given enough time.

it all works out.

dan

06-06-2002, 01:27 AM
Well regardless how good you all seem to think the women on the tour play, compared to a good male player they dont play that great. I would say that besides Fisher, Corr, and Lee lots of the women on tour are about the same as "A" player in your local room, if that. First off i have played in some pretty tough "C" tournaments where you have guys putting 2 and 3 racks together all night long. So this guy probably was one of these sand baggers that play in "C" tournaments and are really closer to an "A" player and he was just on for the night. A couple buddies of mine have played women that have played and been ranked on the tour and stomped them, one is a "b" player and one is an "A" player. The rankings A&lt;B&lt;C&lt;PRO&lt;open dont tell a whole lot about a players ability. I am a "b" player and i bet if i played Jenette Lee for a week straight we would be dead even at the end of the week, and she is one of the best women on tour. The women players dont move the cueball around the table as agressively as the men do, and i think that is why they are, with the exception of a few, not as good as the men. Helena shoots ok in my opinion but i think i could take her if i played her everyday. I know some of you women will find this insulting, but i dont mean it that way, its just the truth. IMO of course. I know everybody has one and some people's stink, sorry i have played for 15 years and thats my belief. Honestly though i think women are more fun to watch, and are probably better for the sport itself, because they all have good attitudes, and thats very comendable.

Vagabond
06-06-2002, 11:52 AM
Hi Joe,
Thanks for the offer.I do not normally gamble.I mentioned this on CCB nearly 9 to 12 months ago and at that time many did not appear to have believed me.In connection with Helena ,I am making a point on the possibilities of surprizes in 9 ball.I am also making a point that these ratings are not specific and are only crude guidelines( I mentioned about this on CCB in the past).The current rating system lack the objectivity and cannot with stand the scientific scrutiny.Yes, I am a C-player according to a rating system posted by a poster from cincinatti.Thanks once again for your kind and gentlemanly offer.
vagabond

Nostroke
06-06-2002, 02:48 PM
i have seen Jeanette give a top A player the seven and he didnt win a game. She can play and so can Allison, Karen, Gerda,and Vivian. If you are a true B player, im bettin against you.

cheesemouse
06-06-2002, 03:23 PM
Enigma,
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>It has been Enigma's experience that 9ball is TONS of luck.<hr></blockquote>
This brings to mind the phrases "the more you practise the luckier you get" or "you make your own luck". I can't think of a sport where the element of luck can be eliminated. Luck is just part of the game, it is either good or bad depending on where you sit. When compared to other pool games 9-ball maybe said to have more luck involved then say 14.1, 1-hole or 8-ball but it is a matter of degrees. By the nature of the beast, 9-ball played at a high skill level is proformed on the edge of the physical paramiters of the pool. Witness the power break, the all or nothing breakouts to continue runs, the use of extreme english to gain shape, the use of multi-rail positioning, going air born with some regularity, forcing your opponent into low % shots, the frequent use of the two way shot where a good miss is figured in, when all else fails you can hang one out there and hope for luck because the circumstances dicate that as your best shot but finally the use of devasting safety play that even early in the game normally results in a win for the player who first had the clarity to see it and second the skill to pull it off. All these things add up to one fun and exciting game of pool. I love all the games of pool but when I want to fully engage my body and mind in a game of pool its 9-ball; it's fun and it's played on the edge, a rather nice place to live. I have a friend who when he appears to get lucky says "That must have been the right shot" then he giggles /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>9-ball is a garbage game anyhow<hr></blockquote>
Witnessing 9-ball played by low skill level players can look like garbage pool and luck is the dominate factor in the outcome but have you ever noticed how much fun they are having? The fact remains that as you climb the rungs too higher skill levels the luck factor diminishes with each stage; it's your choice to take those steps or not. Played by the best 9-ball is beautiful and full of 'moments of clarity and strokes of genious'. Give me 9-ball.

06-06-2002, 09:07 PM
Luck is the residue of hard work. I'm with Cheese, Give me nine ball, or give me death!! (Or give me one pocket, but never, ever straight pool!)

cueball1950
06-06-2002, 09:22 PM
i think what KILLER BREAK is trying to say is that he Played the Lady in question. Gambled with her. Beats her and yet HE cannot cash in a Joss Tour Event...Just thought i would clear it up in case there was any confusion....just a few random thoughts......................mike

Chris Cass
06-06-2002, 10:35 PM
Well, some players regardless of what sex, can't gamble. There are a lot of players that can't play tourney pool well. The difference is the out of the gate deal and the endurance of waiting 2 hrs between matches then have to be right on.

Who knows? Who cares? I guess though in any sence, it is a question. Gambling is another story. Even pros have bad days too. JMHO

Regards,

C.C.

06-07-2002, 01:35 AM
ok ok...you got ENIGMA. Garbage players are more likely to crap out and get lucky than high caliber players. This is because...the majority of the time when a Pro misses. The ball is in close proximity to the hole. When a CHUMP misses...they are likely to 3 rail the ball and crash into 3 or 4 balls along the way. Much more opportunity to get lucky or luck a safe.

9 ball at a HIGH level can be a beautiful thing to watch. BUT...it is STILL the luckiest game of all as far as ENIGMA is concerned.
If your feeling LUCKY...or you like to GAMBLE..ENIGMA guess' 9 ball is ok. But if your into SKILL or are a MONEY player. 1 hole and straight pool..even BANKS are much better games. The cream rises to the top MUCH more.

ENIGMA stands firm to his opinion. 9 ball stinks.

06-07-2002, 03:24 AM
Enigma, you speak da truth.

- Steve

Jay M
06-07-2002, 08:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris Cass:</font><hr> Well, some players regardless of what sex, can't gamble. There are a lot of players that can't play tourney pool well. The difference is the out of the gate deal and the endurance of waiting 2 hrs between matches then have to be right on.

Who knows? Who cares? I guess though in any sence, it is a question. Gambling is another story. Even pros have bad days too. JMHO

Regards,

C.C. <hr></blockquote>

Absolutely true Chris.

On a personal level, I've been told about a zillion times that I am 1 maybe 2 balls better in tourney/Free play than I am gambling. People that want to match up with me always want weight based on my tournament play or what they see when I am playing for free and so I either don't gamble or I lose a lot (occasionally I can step up, but I'm NOT a good gambler). The only reason I gamble at all is to keep my nerves in check when tournament time rolls around. That's the reason that all of these guys that want to match up get my stock answer... I'll play cheap ones, but you're better off playing someone else if you want to make any real money.

Note that I also tell them that I will NOT raise the bet under any circumstances so trying to play down on me doesn't work. If they don't take the warning then, well, it's their money...for the moment

Jay M

06-07-2002, 08:42 AM
"In every generation, the must be some fool who speaks the truth as he see's it" -Boris Pasternak

Well.....ENIGMA is definitely no fool....but ENIGMA ALWAYS speaks the truth...offensive or not, but definitely with a callous attitude. (ENIGMA wouldn't have it any other way)

Till the ENIGMA is forced out of CCB retirement again.
(god help the CCB if that happens)

THE ENIGMA

Oh yeah ..ENIGMA almost forgot. Cheeserodent...i hope some chump craps the 9 in on you hill hill!
(would love to see the expression of the rodent's face as it is humbled by the power of "LUCK")

9ball....you have to be kidding.

cheesemouse
06-07-2002, 09:47 AM
THE ENIGMA

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;Oh yeah ..ENIGMA almost forgot. Cheeserodent...i hope some chump craps the 9 in on you hill hill!
(would love to see the expression of the rodent's face as it is humbled by the power of "LUCK")&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I can tell you exactly how I would react and what the expression on my face would be as it has been my fortune to have experienced your exact scene. I would gently tap the butt of my cue on the floor in a sign of respect for my opponents ability to be on the hill with me in the first place, after he celebrated his well earned victory I would then rise from my chair and with a smile on my face shake his hand. I will be forever gratefully that I have also experienced the same joy as him in the Valley Masters 9-ball in Vegas in 1988.
Whoever coined the phrase "Quiet as a mouse" has never stepped on one.

Conventional wisdom says to know your limits. To know your limits you need to find them first. Finding you limits generally involves getting in over your head and hoping you live long enough to benefit from the experience. That's the fun part.
.....the cheese doesn't have a rocking chair. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

06-07-2002, 07:50 PM
Lorri worries about people who refer to themselves in the third person.....

heater451
06-07-2002, 10:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Lorri:</font><hr> Lorri worries about people who refer to themselves in the third person..... <hr></blockquote>
Makes me think of "Me, Tarzan". . . .Even more, "HULK SMASH!"

/ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif