PDA

View Full Version : Rating System?



mickeymouse
04-11-2005, 03:49 PM
The last time I played serious pool was in the late 80's and back then the rating system was 10-20 for beginners; 40 or so for average; 45-55 for intermediate; 60 - 70 accomplished; 80 -119 semi-pro; 120 and above 'pro'.

Checking the various posts there seems to be another (newer?) systm in place today?

BigRigTom
04-11-2005, 04:48 PM
We've talked about the APA which is a "BIG SECRET" and no one knows exactly how that works.

How about the TAP, BCA, UPA or any other rating systems.
Does anyone know how they work?

Scott Lee
04-11-2005, 08:54 PM
Tom...There is no secret to the APA handicap system. But that is not what mickeymouse is talking about. He's asking about Allen Hopkins Q-Skill Rating Test, which grades runout attempts on a scale, keeping track of 10 racks!

Scott Lee

Bob_Jewett
04-11-2005, 10:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mickeymouse:</font><hr> The last time I played serious pool was in the late 80's and back then the rating system was 10-20 for beginners; 40 or so for average; 45-55 for intermediate; 60 - 70 accomplished; 80 -119 semi-pro; 120 and above 'pro'. <hr /></blockquote>
These sound like USPPA numbers. The USPPA is a handicapped 9-ball league with weekly tournaments mostly on the West Coast that is presently promoted by Tony Annigoni. They have a big tournament every six months at the Sands in Reno the same week as the big Sands Open pro tournament. There is another rating system called the NPL that has about the same range of numbers but adjusts ratings by a different method.

Probably the most common system used today is the APA system, which is intended for players up to about the 100 level. Ratings go from 2 to 7 (maybe to 8 for nine ball?) for beginner to accomplished. You could roughly multiply by 10 to get USPPA equivalents.

CJ_ATX
04-12-2005, 06:15 AM
8-Ball

1. HOW HANDICAPS ARE DETERMINED – Your Local League Office calculates and reports skill levels to the teams on a regular basis. Your skill level determines how many games you have to earn to win your match. Skill levels are maintained, calculated and updated by the Local League Office. The process includes a number of factors including the application of specific mathematical formulas to the data on the weekly scoresheets, win/loss records, Higher Level Tournament performance, qualitative judgment by Handicap Advisory Committees, and other considerations. You are asked to refrain from attempting to keep your own records as it is generally a disruptive practice. The APA appreciates your cooperation with this policy.

2. HOW TO GET STARTED – New players do not have a skill level established, so a standard starting method has been devised for new players. Statistics show that 69% of male players are SL4s and higher while 78% of ladies are SL3s and below. Gentleman will play their first match as a skill level 4 (SL4) and ladies will begin as a SL3. A League Operator is authorized to assign special skill levels and lowest attainables to new players who are known to be highly skilled players or to players who have previously established a skill level in another format.

As a result of your first match, a skill level is established and reported for you. It is against the rules for a player who has an established skill level to attempt to reestablish his skill level at a later time. For example, you can’t quit for awhile and then rejoin the League or transfer to another League area as a nonrated player. You are obligated to disclose the fact that you are a former or current member in another League area with an established skill level.

3. ONCE SKILL LEVELS ARE ESTABLISHED – Now you can look at how your skill level and the skill levels of the other players interact to create the highly competitive atmosphere that has made this League so successful. Remember you are going to give or get games in 8-Ball. During regular weekly League play, simply refer to the “Games Must Win” chart shown below. This chart is printed on the scoresheets for your convenience

4. HOW TO USE THE CHART – To read the chart, find your skill level along the left side. Then find your opponent’s skill level along the top of the chart. Now, track to the right from your skill level and down from your opponent’s until the two tracks meet. In that block the first number is the number you will race to, and the second is the number your opponent will race to. The two numbers involved should have the same differential as your skill levels do. For example, a SL6 playing a SL4 tracks to the block with 5/3 (circled) in it. The SL6 races to 5 games, while the SL4 races to 3. 5 to 3 is a differential of 2, just as 6 to 4 is a differential of 2.

Example 1: Bill is scheduled to play Frank. Frank is a SL5. Bill just joined the League and is a nonrated player, meaning that he does not have a skill level yet. Therefore, Bill plays as a SL4 and Frank plays at his skill level, which is 5. Referring to the “Games Must Win” chart, you can see that in a match between a SL5 and a SL4 the SL5 player races to 4 and the nonrated player races to 3. That is the difference of 1 game, which is also the difference in the Skill Levels. Frank is going to have to win 4 games of 8-Ball before Bill wins 3. That is Bill’s advantage or equalizer.

Example 2: In the fifth week of play, John, who is a SL6, and Mary, who is a SL3, are scheduled to play each other. Referring to the “Games Must Win” chart, you can see that a match between a SL6 and a SL3 has the SL6 player racing to 5 and the SL3 player racing to 2. That is the difference of 3 games, which is the difference in their skill levels. John is going to have to win 5 games of 8-Ball before Mary wins 2. That is Mary’s advantage or equalizer.

This is for the APA

catscradle
04-12-2005, 07:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> ... Ratings go from 2 to 7 (maybe to 8 for nine ball?) ... <hr /></blockquote>
FYI, 9 is the max in the APA 9-ball ratings.

SpiderMan
04-12-2005, 08:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> We've talked about the APA which is a "BIG SECRET" and no one knows exactly how that works.

How about the TAP, BCA, UPA or any other rating systems.
Does anyone know how they work? <hr /></blockquote>

I'm not aware of a BCA rating system. All "BCA" ratings I'm familiar with are products of the local operators' systems, not handed down from BCA.

I've heard that TAP is pretty much an APA knockoff. There was someone who posted a while back on the APA 8-ball rating system. I believe the gist of the formula was based on the number of innings per win, where 0-2 makes you a 7 handicap, 2-3 makes you a 6, 3-4 makes you a 5, etc. Innings are actual innings minus defensive shots.

I believe there were also a few special rules such as a minimum number of innings per win, based on your current handicap. This was to keep you from being able to drop your rating while still winning the match, particularly if your defensive shots were sneaky enough not to get recorded. Also, I think that a 2 always moves up to a 3 when his winning percentage exceeds 50%, regardless of innings. And it seems like the calculations are based on 10 matches, maybe best 10 out of last 20, unless I'm confusing that with a different league. You might try doing a google search on "APA handicap", I'm sure this has been discussed to death.

SpiderMan

BigRigTom
04-12-2005, 08:35 AM
Uh Yeah Scott.... The APA handicap system is a "Big Secret".
Ask anyone who has tried to figure out why they have been raised in skill level after losing a match or in some cases several matches to lower skill level players.

Also read the previous post of the actual rule book explanation of the handicap system. It basically says to leave it to the local league office and don't try to figure it out yourself because that would be disruptive.

ceebee
04-12-2005, 08:42 AM
Joe Tucker has used this drill in practice and successfully to rate players, for about fourteen years. There are variations to this drill, but this one is usually very accurate and in the long run, very reliable.

NOTE: If you Scratch on the Break, spot any balls you may have made and continue. Be sure to try the 10 Ball racks you have read about in this book, while you are doing this drill.

Rack all 10 Balls, break the rack, take “ball in hand” and pocket as many balls in numerical order, as you can. When you miss or scratch, start over. Record the number of pocketed balls in each attempt. Play 10 racks for a good comparison, add your score up and divide by 10, that number will be your rating. Repeat your drills with the emphasis on raising that number.

Example shown below

# 1 Rack 5
# 2 Rack 7
# 3 Rack 6
# 4 Rack 7
# 5 Rack 7
# 6 Rack 4
# 7 Rack 7
# 8 Rack 7
# 9 Rack 6
# 10 Rack 7
Score 63 or 6.3 Look at your rating below.

Pro 70 or above
AAA – 10 65 – 70
AA – 9 60 – 65
A – 8 55 – 60
BB – 7 50 – 55
B – 6 45 – 50
CC – 5 40 – 45
C – 4 35 – 40
DD – 3 30 – 35

This is a great drill to track your scores with. One score does not set a player’s rating in concrete.

You should have a good idea of your true rating, after completing this drill 10 times. Do yourself justice and do not fudge when recording your ball count. Do not start over.

This drill is also a good way to compete against another player. This activity will allow you to handicap your matches accurately, once you have completed several drills. This drill is so accurate, better players will not like it and I cannot blame them. If you record a bad score, that is okay. You can improve as you do these drills. If you only record your high scores, you will not be able to continually play to your rating.

Do not cheat yourself. Correctly record the ball count, see how you really play. 10 Ball is a much more difficult game than 9 Ball. Because fewer balls are made on the break, there are more balls left on the table. There are more clusters; this requires you to have better playing skills and more knowledge.

10 Ball is not just another ball on the pool table; it is another level of skill that requires, better position, better safety play and consistent pocketing of balls in order to maintain a high level of competition.

BigRigTom
04-12-2005, 09:28 AM
Thanks CeeBee, I printed out your post and will try this. It makes a lot of sense to me and I can hardly wait to see how it ranks me. I am currently a 6 in APA 8 ball and a 7 in APA 9 ball.
Very often I play others who are rated the same and I see a gigantic difference in the skill levels even though we are ranked the same.....unfortunately the flutuations go both ways and some of those players have the same disenchantment in the APA ranking system as I do. It would be nice to have a system that is consistent and be able to depend on its reliability.

catscradle
04-12-2005, 10:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ceebee:</font><hr> Joe Tucker has used this drill in practice and successfully to rate players, ...
<hr /></blockquote>

The 10-ball drill comes from Joe's booklet "Guaranteed Improvement". It has a bunch of drills in it, every one of them has a similar rating system attached to it. The 10-ball drill is pretty accurate, but I think if you combine a number of the drills from the booklet you really start to home in on what your true rating might be. However, like his "Racking Secrets" before you incorporated it in your book, it is hard to come by.

Scott Lee
04-12-2005, 04:15 PM
Tom...I was an APA League Operator for 4 years. I think I KNOW how the handicap system works. It is NOT a secret. It is simply a calculation exactly like Spiderman described. Since you play APA, you are aware of the complex scorekeeping system (which really isn't, but many people think so). Your rating from week to week is based on your best match play for the best 10 matches out of the last 20 played. So, with each successive session, old scores (good and bad) drop off, and new ones take their place in the software mix. What Spiderman said about automatically going up if your win percentage is above 50% is not neccessarily true. I've seen folks with 70 and 80% wins that were not raised. NOTHING is always or never.
While it is true that the local league operator CAN override the computer software, the national office frowns on that, without specific reasons. Every week, ALL of the data from every APA league and tournament match, from all over the U.S. &amp; Canada, is entered into the main data bank at APA HQ, outside of St. Louis. They keep pretty tight control over the whole thing. Sure, some sandbaggers get through to the nationals, but many are caught, busted out of the league, and 86'd for TWO YEARS. Truthfully, the biggest complaint about the APA, which is sandbagging, can only happen if both teams, AND the L.O. let it happen. There was NO sandbagging in my league, but I had less than 100 teams, and knew every player (being an instructor didn't hurt either, in being able to tell if people were sandbagging). If you were caught sandbagging in my league, you were kicked out...permanently. However, I can see that when an L.O. has several hundred teams, that becomes harder to oversee, and you have to rely on your subordinants (which is why the APA has a local Board of Governors, in each league area, who meet regularly to deal with these kinds of problems). Sorry you are confused with the ratings system, but it really is no big secret!

Scott Lee

BigRigTom
04-12-2005, 10:47 PM
Quote .....
"Tom...I was an APA League Operator for 4 years. I think I KNOW how the handicap system works. It is NOT a secret"
.......End Quote
OK Scott,
As a League Operator it may not have been a secret to you but to the vast majority of the members of the APA it was and remains a secret. Only the League Operators know how the handicap is arrived at and what actually effects it. Read to rule book again if you still don't see my point.

Regardless....
I just would like a dependable self analysis system that I can use to gage my own skill level and monitor for possible improvements or back slides.
In that pursuit...
Thanks again CeeBee for the info.

BigRigTom
04-12-2005, 10:51 PM
CeeBee,
Another question for you...maybe a dumb one but here goes....
If you break the rack of 10 balls and make a ball and not scratch, do you then shoot from the lay of the cue ball at the smallest ball remaining on the table, counting the pocketed balls or do you still take Ball in Hand to begin shooting the remaining balls?

catscradle
04-13-2005, 04:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> CeeBee,
Another question for you...maybe a dumb one but here goes....
If you break the rack of 10 balls and make a ball and not scratch, do you then shoot from the lay of the cue ball at the smallest ball remaining on the table, counting the pocketed balls or do you still take Ball in Hand to begin shooting the remaining balls?
<hr /></blockquote>

I think I can answer that one for you. For the purposes of this training exercise and rating system use of 10-ball, yes you still take ball-in-hand.
I played in a kind of weird league that Joe Tucker was trying to promote in the Northeast where you never played head-to-head, but each person played 10-ball as described by CeeBee and your standing and handicap was somehow determined by a formula I forget. I found that for the best run, rack the 2 and 3 on the back corners and hit a soft break from the middle of the table bringing the 2 and 3 off the bottom and side rails up to the same relative area at the head end of the table.
Of course, normal head-to-head 10-ball is played like 9-ball.

SpiderMan
04-13-2005, 08:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> What Spiderman said about automatically going up if your win percentage is above 50% is not neccessarily true. I've seen folks with 70 and 80% wins that were not raised. NOTHING is always or never.Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>
Scott,

I said that a "2" will go up if his win percentage exceeds 50%. I did not apply that statement to all skill levels. Is that not correct?

The algorithm as related to me did not allow for over 50% winning by a "2". Once you exceeded 50%, even if your innings count was astronomical, you became a "3". This was a special case applied only to the 2-3 transition.

SpiderMan

catscradle
04-13-2005, 11:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> What Spiderman said about automatically going up if your win percentage is above 50% is not neccessarily true. I've seen folks with 70 and 80% wins that were not raised. NOTHING is always or never.Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>
Scott,

I said that a "2" will go up if his win percentage exceeds 50%. I did not apply that statement to all skill levels. Is that not correct?

The algorithm as related to me did not allow for over 50% winning by a "2". Once you exceeded 50%, even if your innings count was astronomical, you became a "3". This was a special case applied only to the 2-3 transition.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

That happened to a new person on our team. She was brand new and a legit 2, but she happened to immediately play in succession 2 people who could barely hold a cue. She won both matches with very high innings, but went up to a 2 anyway because of the special case 50% rule.

Scott Lee
04-13-2005, 11:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr>
OK Scott,
As a League Operator it may not have been a secret to you but to the vast majority of the members of the APA it was and remains a secret. Only the League Operators know how the handicap is arrived at and what actually effects it. <hr /></blockquote>

Tom...I agree with you that SOME league operators, AND the national office, in general, would like to leave the "cloud of confusion" around the Equalizer handicap formula. The basic underlying reasoning for this is simple...Play your best game ALWAYS, and keep score correctly. However, with ANY handicap system, there are those individuals who will try to figure out how to 'cheat the system'. That's why most L.O.'s don't say much about how it works. I have been telling anyone that wanted to know, even here on the internet, since I was orginally involved with APA in 1992.

Scott Lee