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Thunderduck
04-12-2005, 03:03 AM
I am interested in becoming a pool professional, but I have a major problem, I get pain whenever I form my stance and bend down to shoot. The pain runs from my right lower back into my right leg and hip. My doctor says there is nothing wrong with me physically, so I assume my technique is wrong or I'm just too tall maybe. I tried to email Jeanette Lee for advice but her Q+A forum doesnt seem to be working. Does anyone know if I can do anything specific to form a stance that is more ergonomic?

Thanks,

Thunderduck

pooltchr
04-12-2005, 04:54 AM
Try reducing the amount of bending at the waist that you do. You can get lower on the shot by moving your back foot farther away from the table than your normal stance. When you put your bridge hand on the table, kick your foot back 8 or 10 inches before you get all the way down on your shot. It will put much less strain on your lower back.
Steve

randyg
04-12-2005, 05:21 AM
THUNDERDUCK: How tall are you? Can we assume that you shoot left handed?.....SPF-randyg

MrLucky
04-12-2005, 05:40 AM
This is nothing a good chiropractor can't fix! I started having lower back and right shoulder issues years ago and a lot of it came from the stress on the joints from power breaks while bent over the table ! if you think about it there are few natural movements that we would normally do that mimic this action ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

MrLucky
04-12-2005, 05:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MrLucky:</font><hr> This is nothing a good chiropractor can't fix! I started having lower back and right shoulder issues years ago and a lot of it came from the stress on the joints from power breaks while bent over the table ! if you think about it there are few natural movements that we would normally do that mimic this action ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote> <font color="red"> I might add that now I break with less power and got two benifits !!! more accuracy in controlling the cue ball and much less pressure on my lower back </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <font color="red">I see a chiro about once every other month or so for and alignment and everything is fine ! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

catscradle
04-12-2005, 05:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> I am interested in becoming a pool professional, but I have a major problem, I get pain whenever I form my stance and bend down to shoot. The pain runs from my right lower back into my right leg and hip. My doctor says there is nothing wrong with me physically, so I assume my technique is wrong or I'm just too tall maybe. I tried to email Jeanette Lee for advice but her Q+A forum doesnt seem to be working. Does anyone know if I can do anything specific to form a stance that is more ergonomic?

Thanks,

Thunderduck <hr /></blockquote>

To me it sounds like sciatica, which can be cause by a disc (sp?) problem in the lower back or (a condition in runners) muscle imbalance. I'm somebody who runs abour 30-40 minutes a day and used to run a lot. This occurs in runners because running causes the muscle in the back to get disproportionally strong relative to the adominal muscles and the classic fix is to start doing exercises (situps) to build up the opposing muscles. You might try that or try visiting a sports medicine clinic. I'd definitely seek the advice of a good sports medicine clinic before going the chiro route.

MrLucky
04-12-2005, 06:30 AM
<font color="red">Some facts about Sciatica ! if this is indeed your problem you need to see a orphopedic surgeon! sciatica is a debillatating problem that comes from a herniated disc which would give you problems all the time! </font color>

Overview of sciatica causes and symptoms
Sciatica—pain along the large sciatic nerve that runs from the lower back down the back of each leg—is a relatively common form of low back pain and leg pain.

Sciatica is usually caused by pressure on the sciatic nerve from a herniated disc (also referred to as a ruptured disc, pinched nerve, slipped disk, etc.). The problem is often diagnosed as a "radiculopathy", meaning that a disc has protruded from its normal position in the vertebral column and is putting pressure on the radicular nerve (nerve root), which connects with the sciatic nerve.

Understanding sciatica pain
For some people, the pain from sciatica can be severe and debilitating. For others, the pain from sciatica might be infrequent and irritating, but has the potential to get worse. Usually, sciatica only affects one side of the lower body, and the pain often radiates from the lower back all the way through the back of the thigh and down through the leg. Depending on where the sciatic nerve is affected, the pain may also radiate to the foot or toes.

One or more of the following sensations may occur as a result of sciatica:

*

Pain in the rear or leg that is worse when sitting
*

Burning or tingling down the leg
*

Weakness, numbness or difficulty moving the leg or foot
*

A constant pain on one side of the rear
*

A shooting pain that makes it difficult to stand up

While sciatica can be very painful, it is rare that permanent nerve damage (tissue damage) will result. Most sciatica pain syndromes result from inflammation and will get better within two weeks to a few months. Also, because the spinal cord is not present in the lower (lumbar) spine, a herniated disc in this area of the anatomy does not present a danger of paralysis.

Symptoms that may constitute a medical emergency include progressive weakness in the legs or bladder/bowel incontinence. Patients with these symptoms may have cauda equina syndrome and should seek immediate medical attention.

Any condition that causes irritation or impingement on the sciatic nerve can cause the pain associated with sciatica. The most common cause is lumbar herniated disc. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif <font color="green">Whatever your problem is it is one for a real doctor to diagnose whether you choose a qualified chiro or a orthopedic get it checked ! I did with mine and I am so much better off for it! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cane
04-12-2005, 07:08 AM
If your physician says that everything is fine, then maybe your stance isn't as comfortable as it should be for you. My opinion, there is no "right" stance (although, I've seen a lot of wrong ones), so try to find one that is comfortable for you that doesn't put stress on your lower back. I had to change mine. Quit playing for 14 years and when I started back, the stance I used before was hurting me... it was OK for a few games, but on a marathon, I'd get so sore it would take a couple of days to recover. I just experimented with foot and leg positions until I found one that was both comfortable and balanced and that did NOT hurt my back and knees. I'm a little more off of my cue than I used to be, feet are a little closer together, my back foot points outward from my body more than it used to and now, on most days, I can play 6 to 8 hours non-stop and I do have some slight physical problems... had my back broke in '77 and have degenerative bone disease. What I'm saying is do a little experimenting and find what works for you.

Good luck,
Bob

Ives
04-12-2005, 07:53 AM
How many doctor opinions did you get? I have severe back problems ( 2 ruptured discs ) but the pain does not go down my leg. I was told that if the pain shoots down your leg it's a nerve problem. My wife had the same symptoms ( back and leg pain )and a little therapy fixed her right up. Also, work on strengthening your stomach muscles, they help support the back alot more than people realize. Hope this helps.

Thunderduck
04-12-2005, 12:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> THUNDERDUCK: How tall are you? Can we assume that you shoot left handed?.....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

I'm right handed... and about 6 ft 3...

Thunderduck
04-12-2005, 12:22 PM
Thank you to all who responded. I think Sciatica might be a bit of an extreme diagnosis... at this early stage of the condition I would describe it as pain and discomfort, and I have a chance to prevent an injury from occuring by correcting my stance or stretching/strengthening my muscles. But youre right, I could develop a condition like Sciatica if I continue to abuse my body this way daily.

If you have any other stance tips, please post them! Or if you have Jeanette Lee's email address, even better. I'm sure she found a good stance to help with her scoliosis...

cheers,

Thunderduck

tateuts
04-12-2005, 01:05 PM
Here's my stance suggestion and it differs from the others I've heard here.

I use this position and I'm very comfortable with it. I suspect you are too tall to use a stiff legged stance, and I suspect trying to use a conventional stance is putting too much pressure on your spine.

I would recommend a more square stance with your weight centered equally between your feet. I'm 6'1", 220 with long legs and long arms (35" shirts). Here's how I do it and I can play all day and night with no strain problems on my back.

I stand pretty far back on my shot line before setting up, with my hips betwen 45 degrees to about 60 degrees square to the shot. I step forward into shot position, and squat down slightly at the same time (like sitting on the edge of a bar stool), both knees bent a little with most of my weight centered between my feet. There should be very little weight on your bridge hand (having very little weight on your bridge hand makes you more solid anyway)and this is the test of your balance. You can test this by getting into shooting position and lifting your bridge hand up - you should be able to lift it easily and feel your weight centered on your feet.

This shot position is the same idea as lifting a heavy object with your legs instead of your back.

Doing sit ups and leg lifts help strenghten your abdominal muscles, which should also help take some of the strain off your back.

Chris

cueball1950
04-12-2005, 05:40 PM
Take 2 10mg lortab with a side of flexeril 10mg. that is what it takes for me most times....lol... i have 4 herniated discs in my back and get the same type of pain. like they all said on here. change your stance a little and see if it works........................................mike

griffith_d
04-12-2005, 06:31 PM
I have the exact same problem down the left side mostly and do back exercises. It is like a reverse situp...lay on your stomach and then try to touch your heels with the top of your head. Just raise up your torso and your legs. It will strengthen you lower back without hurting it.

Everytime I quit do the exercises is when I can hurt it when bending over.

Griff

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> I am interested in becoming a pool professional, but I have a major problem, I get pain whenever I form my stance and bend down to shoot. The pain runs from my right lower back into my right leg and hip. My doctor says there is nothing wrong with me physically, so I assume my technique is wrong or I'm just too tall maybe. I tried to email Jeanette Lee for advice but her Q+A forum doesnt seem to be working. Does anyone know if I can do anything specific to form a stance that is more ergonomic?

Thanks,

Thunderduck <hr /></blockquote>

Fran Crimi
04-12-2005, 06:45 PM
Just a guess here, but it sounds like you may be standing too far to the left of the line of the shot. That would force your body to lean all the way right to get your head over the cue. That puts lots of pressure on your right side. Try putting your right heel directly in the line of the shot. Then positon your left foot, as tateuts posted, at about a 60 degree angle to the cue. See if that helps. Good luck!

Fran

Barbara
04-12-2005, 07:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Just a guess here, but it sounds like you may be standing too far to the left of the line of the shot. That would force your body to lean all the way right to get your head over the cue. That puts lots of pressure on your right side. Try putting your right heel directly in the line of the shot. See if that helps. Good luck!

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Bingo!! But I'm still sending you a teammie of mine that doesn't have a cross-dominant eye-hand problem! You'll recognize her by the pinned note on her shirt! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Barbara~~~absolutely, cannot, without a doubt, diagnose a problem like Fran can! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thunderduck
04-12-2005, 09:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Just a guess here, but it sounds like you may be standing too far to the left of the line of the shot. That would force your body to lean all the way right to get your head over the cue. That puts lots of pressure on your right side. Try putting your right heel directly in the line of the shot. Then positon your left foot, as tateuts posted, at about a 60 degree angle to the cue. See if that helps. Good luck!

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Well yes, I firmly believe that there is a reason its my right side... if it was just from bending, both sides would hurt... you might be onto something... I can hit a golf ball with no pain, so my back has no inherit defect I believe. I will try out your advice and post my results, thanks.

tateuts
04-12-2005, 09:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Just a guess here, but it sounds like you may be standing too far to the left of the line of the shot. That would force your body to lean all the way right to get your head over the cue. That puts lots of pressure on your right side. Try putting your right heel directly in the line of the shot. Then positon your left foot, as tateuts posted, at about a 60 degree angle to the cue. See if that helps. Good luck!

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Fran! It's nice to see you "back"again! (no pun intended). You didn't miss much - sorry folks but it's been pretty boring.

Chris

Rod
04-13-2005, 07:22 AM
My one peice of advice is stretch your hamstrings. It may not be the problem but it sure won't hurt. I use to have near the same problem, my leg and foot would burn. It got so bad it was hard to walk. A few simple stretches every day cured the problem. When they get tight, it tightens up your lower back area.

Rod

MrLucky
04-13-2005, 08:52 AM
<font color="purple">LOL! Well thunderduck if you follow just half of the advice / exercises and general remedies provided here we will have to start calling you Thunder Bolt ! You will have legs and back muscles like THOR !!! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SteveFromNY
04-13-2005, 11:28 AM
It's definitely sciatica and it sounds like you have a herniation in the L4 L5 disc. You should have a D.O check that out as soon as possible before it develops further. I had been living with the pain for nearly 5 years before I decided to have surgery to remove the herniation last november. I'm still in recovery now but am feeling tons better.

Thunderduck
04-13-2005, 01:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SteveFromNY:</font><hr> It's definitely sciatica and it sounds like you have a herniation in the L4 L5 disc. You should have a D.O check that out as soon as possible before it develops further. I had been living with the pain for nearly 5 years before I decided to have surgery to remove the herniation last november. I'm still in recovery now but am feeling tons better. <hr /></blockquote>

JESUS!! I hope not!!!!!

Wally_in_Cincy
04-14-2005, 05:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr>

...Doing sit ups ...help strenghten your abdominal muscles, ... <hr /></blockquote>

I would recommend crunches, not sit-ups.

JMO

Thunderduck
04-15-2005, 08:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Just a guess here, but it sounds like you may be standing too far to the left of the line of the shot. That would force your body to lean all the way right to get your head over the cue. That puts lots of pressure on your right side. Try putting your right heel directly in the line of the shot. Then positon your left foot, as tateuts posted, at about a 60 degree angle to the cue. See if that helps. Good luck!

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I experimented with this new stance today... I noticed that by putting my right heel in line with the line of aim, the cue came closer to my body. This forced me to move my left foot much more to the left and outwards in order to get into the shot. Otherwise if I just move my left foot forward, my cue is stuck and cant move. I flexed my back knee... I agree, it reduces some stress on my back... cool! Lining up the cue with the right heel has centered my shot very nicely, thanks. Im just having trouble keeping the left foot from being too wide and unstable.. I'll keep you posted.

Fran Crimi
04-15-2005, 09:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr>
I experimented with this new stance today... I noticed that by putting my right heel in line with the line of aim, the cue came closer to my body. This forced me to move my left foot much more to the left and outwards in order to get into the shot. Otherwise if I just move my left foot forward, my cue is stuck and cant move. I flexed my back knee... I agree, it reduces some stress on my back... cool! Lining up the cue with the right heel has centered my shot very nicely, thanks. Im just having trouble keeping the left foot from being too wide and unstable.. I'll keep you posted. <hr /></blockquote>

Good. Sounds like you're making all the right moves. It's hard to visually extend the line of the shot all the way to the floor, so you should experiment a little by moving your right heel slightly right or left. 'Slightly' is the key word here. Also, experiment a little with your distance from the table. But look for a slight lean to the right when you're in shooting position. Nothing like the lean you probably had before. If you find yourself leaning left, you probably moved too far right.

Also, now you should be facing the shot and not looking over your shoulder like you probably were before.

Can you imagine going through life looking at everything over your left shoulder? So why should we shoot pool that way?

Thunderduck
04-16-2005, 01:12 AM
Thanks Fran, you might have just saved me years of agony!!! God Bless...

Tduck

Thunderduck
04-19-2005, 05:14 PM
They say there is no "correct" stance... but Im starting to disagree... I made a new discovery today. Not only is there a correct alignment you have to achieve so your head is naturally in line with the cue.. I think i discovered that you must bend properly too! In other words, you must bend straight down so that no angle occurs between your back and legs. It is as if you are just bending down to touch your toes from a neutral position, even though you body is pointed somewhere. On the other hand, if you lean forward while your body is at 45% angle, you are creating a torque between your back and legs which pressures your lower back. You must bend straight down, no twisting or bending forward! I think this eliminates torque and will be less painful. Try it and tell me what you think...

tduck

Thunderduck
04-19-2005, 05:17 PM
To clarify, I mean it is better not to bend in the direction of the cue and object ball, but to bend down in line with your body...

wolfdancer
04-19-2005, 05:46 PM
It's downright amazing that in only one week, to the day...you have found an answer to your own question.....if only life were that simple....i think i'm getting a pain in my back, but much lower then your pain, probably

wolfdancer
04-19-2005, 07:59 PM
1. Stand with your feet shoulder length apart.
2. Punch forward with your right fist, then your left.
3. Turn your upper body towards the right, bend your knees twice and bring your elbows out to the side, away from your body.
4. Bring your arms and elbows together in front of you, circle your right and left arms in opposite directions and cross your arms in front of you (making an X), fists pointing down.
5. Bring your feet together, and keeping your arms locked in the X position, move your arms up so the X is now across your chest with fists pointing up and move your head back as you look up.
Don't know if this'll help your pool game, but you'll be slamming with the kids, doing the X move

Thunderduck
04-19-2005, 08:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> 1. Stand with your feet shoulder length apart.
2. Punch forward with your right fist, then your left.
3. Turn your upper body towards the right, bend your knees twice and bring your elbows out to the side, away from your body.
4. Bring your arms and elbows together in front of you, circle your right and left arms in opposite directions and cross your arms in front of you (making an X), fists pointing down.
5. Bring your feet together, and keeping your arms locked in the X position, move your arms up so the X is now across your chest with fists pointing up and move your head back as you look up.
Don't know if this'll help your pool game, but you'll be slamming with the kids, doing the X move <hr /></blockquote>

Are you a choreographer? Sorry about your back pain... did you try my suggestions?

Thunderduck
04-19-2005, 08:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> It's downright amazing that in only one week, to the day...you have found an answer to your own question.....if only life were that simple....i think i'm getting a pain in my back, but much lower then your pain, probably <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, amazing! Now I just have to figure out aim, stroke, speed, bridges, position play, jump shots, swerve, draw, follow, stop, safety, breaking, etc... a simple game really..

wolfdancer
04-19-2005, 09:02 PM
Nah, I copied that off the net
fortunately, no back pain yet, so I'll just stick with my stance, which might cause a good instructor to wince in pain.

caedos
04-19-2005, 09:54 PM
I am a candidate for sciatica, and have additional back issues from car wreck, martial arts, an emergency heavy lift with bad form, a degenerated disk (since healed), bone spur (c2), and I'm sure I'll get something else before I die. I have had no surgeries. It is often possible to improve a back issue with physical therapy. This is not new to this thread, I just want emphasize that surgery should be a last resort and not a quick fix. While it may be low risk, there can be complications with scar tissue. My degenerated disk and low back pain took over four years to rehab, and I still do the stretches and excercises to maintain my health. Barnes &amp; Noble has been a place for me to sit and read about non-surgical rehabilitation of spinal conditions and soft-tissue injuries, for free... unless I just 'had to' have the book /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Good luck!

C