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Sid_Vicious
04-12-2005, 04:21 AM
I have noticed that in getting ready for Reno, playing box tournaments and also at SPetty's, that the Cougar CB seems to have, IMO, it's own personality differing from red and blue dot/circle cueballs. I don't get much time to work with this ball since I play out of houses with nines and oversized eights(Brunswicks), and I thought I'd get opinions and advice here as to the methodology, if any, they y'all jumpers use with this type cueball. My observation is that I need to punch more directly into the bed of the table with this ball instead of the liberties I've been used to with the regular reds and blues. Is this real? Is there a difference in the Cougar slate to add to this? Comments appreciated.

Sid

randyg
04-12-2005, 05:24 AM
SID: Heavier cueball and lighter (thinner) slate?.....SPF-randyg

Cane
04-12-2005, 07:25 AM
Sid, very good question, and one for which I'd like a definitive answer. With the "regular" cue balls (red circle, blue circle, black circle, measles, etc.), I can jump with draw, follow or masse'. BUT... on the Cougars, with the magnetic balls, I'm pretty much restricted to draw or centerball jumps. Also, I tend to increase the elevation of my cue for the magnetic balls. I can still jump a CB that's inside a ball's width from a blocker, but the increased elevation does decrease my accuracy a little. Maybe Randy is right and it's the heavier ball and thinner slate, but I just can't control the heavy ball when I try to jump with follow or masse on a Valley Table. Is it me, or is it the equipment???

Bob

Sid_Vicious
04-12-2005, 07:56 AM
Randy...Thanks, I did not know that the Valey ball was heavier than say, a blue dot or not equally matched to the to a set of factory balls. I would have assumed that the Cougar ball was simply impregneted with metals to allow the return, but intended to maintain an equal weight to the rest of the balls(15) in the process. I learned something.

Sounds like the only two ways to learn to jump with theser is to either buy a Cougar table with balls, or spend some time at a bar and practice there. This brings up another question Randy, "What is the slate thickness of a Cougar?

Thanks,
Sid

SpiderMan
04-12-2005, 08:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> SID: Heavier cueball and lighter (thinner) slate?.....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Not sure about the effect of thinner slate, but I seem to notice that heavier cueballs are easier to jump. I believe that it's because the important factor in ease of jumping is the relative mass of the stick to the ball. Making the stick lighter helps, and you get somewhat of the same effect by making the ball heavier.

Another variable on many, but not all, bar tables is the cloth. They seem to use a thicker cloth, probably for longevity in the company of bar drunks. When you have this thick nappy cloth, several things become easier. One is jumping, another is the classic shot where you follow your object ball into the pocket after a blocking ball. I attribute this to the fact that the object ball reverts more quickly from slide to natural forward roll because of the increased friction with the cloth.

SpiderMan

randyg
04-13-2005, 05:11 AM
SID: Valley slate is 3/4" thick. Valley green logo cue ball is right about 6 ounces.

When a lighter object hits a heavier mass (or vice versa)Elastic Energy reacts different.

In this case, the thinner slate absorbs more of the collisions energy.

SID: I'm a little out of my league on this subject. Maybe Jewett will chime in and help. Have a great day.....SPF-randyg

Sid_Vicious
04-13-2005, 05:43 AM
My goal Randy, is to have one of these for my home table, 3/4" slated Brunswick, and to finesse the movement on my own simonas cloth, just to get the reaction down pat, masse and hoppability and such going into Reno. Thanks...sid

Rod
04-13-2005, 06:29 AM
Sid,

Most of the problem is the 3/4" slate. It's real obvious, if you listen you can even hear the slate viberate (if you will)(hollow type sound). Ever try jumping on a connley ultimate with 2" slate? It's so easy you hardly need a jump cue. Of course cloth and c/b is a small factor but it is a factor.

Thought I'd add the slate support is not near as sturdy as a big table. If you want the c/b to jump well it can't have the cushion (or give that a bar box has). Not to mention most bar tables have cloth over the supports.


Rod

Scott Lee
04-13-2005, 11:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Ever try jumping on a connley ultimate with 2" slate? It's so easy you hardly need a jump cue. Of course cloth and c/b is a small factor but it is a factor.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

Rod...I was gonna post that, but you beat me to it! It is SO easy to jump the CB with 2" slate. I could be wrong, but as far as I know, Connelly is the only American company to even offer 2" slate!

Scott

Rod
04-13-2005, 02:24 PM
I think they are the only ones with 2", with 1 1/8" comming in second. If you can't jump a ball on 2" slate, you can't jump. LOL

Rod

stickman
04-13-2005, 07:33 PM
Just my personal observation, and I play almost exclusively on Cougars, the green Aramith logo tournament balls are going to be a little more difficult to control than what you're used to. This is what I believe you'll see in Vegas. It requires a little more elevation and a little more stroke. The balls are heavier, and a little harder to control. Here, during tournaments, they open the tables and use Super Aramith Pro cueballs. These are considerably easier to jump with, and control, in my opinion. Also, in the time tables here, they use these balls, and that is what I primarily play with, and prefer.

Jim

Bob_Jewett
04-13-2005, 07:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr>... My observation is that I need to punch more directly into the bed of the table with this ball instead of the liberties I've been used to with the regular reds and blues. Is this real? Is there a difference in the Cougar slate to add to this?... <hr /></blockquote>
Theory says that a heavier cue ball will be easier to jump because the stick stops more and lets the ball escape from the cloth. A hard tip helps for the same reason -- the ball leaves a hard tip quickly, while a soft tip smushes the ball (that's a technical term) along the cloth, turning your fine jump into a masse shot. A light jump cue helps for the same reason.

I think the thinner slate is also an issue, and the thicker slate keeps more energy in the ball, but I don't know of any measurements for this. I'm a lot more comfortable jumping on 60mm slate than on a PoS bar table.

One thing that's probably more important than all the rest is the kind of cloth that's on the table. I used to play in a room that used rubber-backed cloth (it's still used some places) and with that cloth, I could get over a whole rack from a diamond away with my regular cue, and a shot soft enough to make a ball in the side pocket and keep the cue ball on the table. And I don't jump particularly well.

If the cloth is thin and dirty, I expect jumps to be much harder. Simonis 860 is thin, and relatively hard to jump on.

onepocketchump
04-14-2005, 11:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> Sid, very good question, and one for which I'd like a definitive answer. With the "regular" cue balls (red circle, blue circle, black circle, measles, etc.), I can jump with draw, follow or masse'. BUT... on the Cougars, with the magnetic balls, I'm pretty much restricted to draw or centerball jumps. Also, I tend to increase the elevation of my cue for the magnetic balls. I can still jump a CB that's inside a ball's width from a blocker, but the increased elevation does decrease my accuracy a little. Maybe Randy is right and it's the heavier ball and thinner slate, but I just can't control the heavy ball when I try to jump with follow or masse on a Valley Table. Is it me, or is it the equipment???

Bob <hr /></blockquote>


It's both. You need to adjust to the equipment. On most bar boxes jumping will be harder because of the thinner slate. The ball is usually not a problem as the magnetic balls are the same weight (within a 10th of an ounce) of non-magnetic balls.

I might have more experience jumping on bar boxes and big tables than anyone here (might) because of my affiliation with Bunjee. During my tenure there I weighed and tested many different balls and practiced jumping with all balls on all tables until I was comfortable with the nuances of each.

Basically it is just a slightly different touch for barboxes. Just a little more stroke to compensate for the thinner slate. Work on the stroke and you will be able to spin the cueball as well as with any other ball. Look at www.bunjeebilliards.com (http://www.bunjeebilliards.com) for some videos that show various jump shots done with spin on a bar table using a magnetic ball. I did all these shots.

John

Sid_Vicious
04-14-2005, 02:13 PM
"Just a little more stroke to compensate for the thinner slate."

OPC...This is the wicked edge of the issue as you probably know. With my Lucasi jumper, I am finding that I really have to bridle myself down or else I jump way farther than needed, and the boxes seem to need punch in comparison. The movement from one table to the other, be it a 7, an 8 or a nine,,,they all pop up differently, EVEN with the same exact cloth. The word nuance has more meaning that it's general definition, IMO. As far as the CB from say a Cougar being insignificant for the most part,,,I really wonder. The magnetic particles inside makes a masse difference as I understand it, so wouldn't it make sense that the airing ability and especially the action after the CB lands on the cloth, would be marginally different. I am not being argumentative, just that it didn't take long for me to find that the jumps on the Valleys were something to re-learn.

To test this theory out, I'll see if SPetty will let me take her Cougar CB over to her Diamond and hit one or two jumps. You could be right, but I'll have to see it to know for sure...sid