PDA

View Full Version : the stroke takes strength!



Thunderduck
04-17-2005, 12:17 AM
Im practicing my stroke in the mirror and noticing something interesting. Without a cue in my hand, my stroke is fine. Add the weight of the cue and my wrist starts to breakdown... it doesnt keep the same shape on the backswing... to overcome this gravity, my tricep must really work to keep the wrist in one piece... after doing this stroke quite a few times, my tricep feels like its been pumping iron! I have concluded that a good stroke takes a very strong tricep which must be developed... am I right or am I doing something wrong that is making this difficult?

Thunderduck

1Time
04-17-2005, 02:05 AM
You may just be standing in front of the mirror with your arm raised too long. Your stroke will prove itself with results on the table. The best suggestion I have is to find someone who has a stroke you like and imitate it. Or, if you're content with keeping your own stroke, get an instructor to advise you. However, if you're bent on correcting this on your own, I suggest using a camcorder while you play to give you a better look at what's going on.

One
04-17-2005, 02:50 AM
My triceps and rear deltoid are more muscular than the rest of my body. Do you have the same thing?

pooltchr
04-17-2005, 04:59 AM
It sounds like you might be slightly out of alignment. Your forearm and wrist/hand should be hanging comfortably straight down from the elbow. If you are using extra muscles to hold things in place, you may not be in your natural line. Since the bicep is the muscle used to drive the forward motion of the cue, if it is fighting with the tricep, it's really hard to get a smooth stroke. If you can, find an instructor to watch your stroke and help you fine tune it.
Steve

ceebee
04-17-2005, 09:18 AM
Do You know that your grip hand on the cue does change a little during the stroke? Are you incorporating some unwanted wrist action?

Have you tried videoing your stroke from different angles?
That effort might be very useful to you. Seeing your grip change from different angles might be helpful too.

Please understand this... you have built in some muscle memory. That may be good & that may be bad.

There are thousands of great players that have terribly awful stroke fundamentals, however they do manage to give that final, level, through the cue ball, stroke a good go & pocket balls.

Good Luck with your stroke...

Rod
04-17-2005, 11:37 PM
Your trying to steer the cue. Just let the weight swing, it takes NO muscle. Muscle is why your having the problem. If it starts happening on the backswing, your really in trouble. Slow it down and let it flow, no forced moves.

Rod

JimS
04-18-2005, 04:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Your trying to steer the cue. Just let the weight swing, it takes NO muscle. Muscle is why your having the problem. If it starts happening on the backswing, your really in trouble. Slow it down and let it flow, no forced moves.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

Think stroke . Petting a cat. Stroking a womans hair. Cradle the cue in your hand. Breath deeply and slowly, through the nose.

Deeman2
04-18-2005, 05:46 AM
Let the weight of the cue do the work, not your muscles. That's the reason you use a 10 oz. (for instance) cue and not a 0 oz. cue.....

Deeman

Rod
04-18-2005, 09:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]

Think stroke . Petting a cat. Stroking a womans hair. Cradle the cue in your hand. Breath deeply and slowly, through the nose. <hr /></blockquote>

I like that! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod

Thunderduck
04-18-2005, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Your trying to steer the cue. Just let the weight swing, it takes NO muscle. Muscle is why your having the problem. If it starts happening on the backswing, your really in trouble. Slow it down and let it flow, no forced moves.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

Ok, I'll try. The only reason I added more muscle was so my wrist would take the proper form on the backswing... Ive seen the Robert Byrne video and apparently, what he shows is the proper wrist reaction to a swing... the wrist opens slightly, and the pivots.. so I'm trying to achieve it. It would be easier if I was allowed to set up a mirror at the pool hall!

Deeman2
04-18-2005, 12:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> Let the weight of the cue do the work, not your muscles. That's the reason you use a 10 oz. (for instance) cue and not a 0 oz. cue.....

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> Uh,Oh! I notice where I said 10 oz. cue instead of a 20 oz. cue. It was either a mistake on my part or a secret desire to keep the little people happy....

Deeman /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif </font color>

Rod
04-18-2005, 11:20 PM
I think your reading or seeing far to much in your video. Your lower arm and wrist just hang limp from your upper arm.
There isn't any position that is held when it hangs limp. Limp is limp. That allows the cue to go straight, when you add muscle, all that changes. Better known as steering the cue. All most all of the time it is a tight grip and using the wrong muscles.

If you want to try something swing a 1/2 gal milk jug or similar with a pound or slightly less of water. Hold it with your index and middle finger. The object is swing the weight, when your back swing stops, inertia keeps going a little, then it starts forward after it catches up. When it catches up it falls forward. You can increase the speed only to the degree it doesn't splash water.

The pool stroke is basicly the same it falls forward (transition area) then you can accelerate a pool cue but only to the degree it's not a jerky motion. If you jerk, it's the hit instinct and your steering with muscle.

Notice in a mirror when the weight swings freely your wrist cocks back (cue or water) and the wrist always catches up at impact, if it's not forced. Meaning the wrist is vertical (flat and straight) (naturally hanging) at impact. That is what you want. You can keep a more firm wrist, which is fine, just let the cue or water hang the same as above. Timing is near the same but it all varies a little. Learn to feel the weight, after all the game is based on feel. Pool Is Not Violent Motions. That kills a good stroke and more important, accuracy. It will become very accurate and powerful if you let it happen, rather than force a motion.

Rod

Thunderduck
04-18-2005, 11:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>
Notice in a mirror when the weight swings freely your wrist cocks back (cue or water) and the wrist always catches up at impact, if it's not forced. Meaning the wrist is vertical (flat and straight) (naturally hanging) at impact. That is what you want. You can keep a more firm wrist, which is fine, just let the cue or water hang the same as above. Timing is near the same but it all varies a little. Learn to feel the weight, after all the game is based on feel. Pool Is Not Violent Motions. That kills a good stroke and more important, accuracy. It will become very accurate and powerful if you let it happen, rather than force a motion.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, I think I understand now... the weight of the cue takes the wrist with it rather then vice versa ... I tried this in a mirror and got better results. thanks...

Rod
04-19-2005, 12:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I think I understand now... the weight of the cue takes the wrist with it rather then vice versa ... I tried this in a mirror and got better results. thanks <hr /></blockquote>

Your welcome, it really does work. Just trust the swinging weght and of course it is, or will be your stroke (delivery).

Rod

Scott Lee
04-19-2005, 02:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> Let the weight of the cue do the work, not your muscles.

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

Golly Dee...If you're gonna plagerize me, at LEAST send me the royalties! LMAO...I'll be watching the mailbox! LOL

Scott ~ says this line til he's blue in the face!

KGeeED
04-20-2005, 06:36 AM
Maybe you need to watch Karate Kid. Wash and wax you car, wash windows, polish floors etc. After doing this you will become a pro billiard player. If nothing else you will have clean a clean car, windows and floor. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Scott Lee
04-20-2005, 11:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KGeeED:</font><hr> Maybe you need to watch Karate Kid. Wash and wax you car, wash windows, polish floors etc. After doing this you will become a pro billiard player. If nothing else you will have clean a clean car, windows and floor. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

KGeeED...Not sure what you mean? I've seen the movie, but I was making a private joke with my friend and student, Deeman!

Scott

Stretch
04-20-2005, 03:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> Let the weight of the cue do the work, not your muscles.

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

Golly Dee...If you're gonna plagerize me, at LEAST send me the royalties! LMAO...I'll be watching the mailbox! LOL

Scott ~ says this line til he's blue in the face! <hr /></blockquote>

Let the wieght of the cue do the work eh? Boy that ones been around forever. Just wondering though, does the pressure of your grip change the effective weight of the cue on contact? My gut feeling says yes. When the cue is anchored to your hand there is a lot more resistance to impact. Therefore the force of the impact causes the shaft to buckle which is where cueball throw comes from. With a light grip or even slip stroke the shock wave is transmited more easily through the entire length of the cue resulting in a more accurate impact, with less throw. Those are your long straight shots, or regular shot makeing where a premium is on aim. But i think a firmer grip is required for shots that need a lot of cueball "action". You get the most out of your tip and spring in your shaft that way. I can see a lot of miscues happening with force for any kind hit other than centre ball with a feather grip. St.~~just some of my own feelings on grip~~

Rod
04-20-2005, 04:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Just wondering though, does the pressure of your grip change the effective weight of the cue on contact? <hr /></blockquote>

Not actually pressure, but lack of pressure. For instance a throwing action of the cue (letting it slip through your back hand) done before contact is a way of deadening/killing a shot. The effective weight with a light or heavy grip I'd imagine is nill.

[ QUOTE ]
But i think a firmer grip is required for shots that need a lot of cueball "action". <hr /></blockquote>

St, I have to disagree. You get plenty of action with a light grip. If I want such I try to be as light as possible. Remember it's tight muscles that hinder cue speed.

Rod

Bob_Jewett
04-20-2005, 06:13 PM
&gt; Just wondering though, does the pressure of your grip change the
&gt; effective weight of the cue on contact?

Nope. That's because the tip is much harder than the flesh of your hand.

&gt; Therefore the force of the impact causes the shaft to buckle which
&gt; is where cueball throw comes from.

In the US, we call it "squirt" or "deflection" and it is not really due to the shaft buckling. Ron Shepard has done an excellent analysis of the current state of knowledge of squirt (or "throw" as UKers call it).

&gt; With a light grip or even slip stroke the shock wave is
&gt; transmited more easily through the entire length of the
&gt; cue resulting in a more accurate impact, with less throw [by which St means "squirt".

Certainly this theory would be plausible if the grip could actually be made firm enough to matter.

KGeeED
04-20-2005, 08:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote KGeeED:</font><hr> Maybe you need to watch Karate Kid. Wash and wax you car, wash windows, polish floors etc. After doing this you will become a pro billiard player. If nothing else you will have clean a clean car, windows and floor. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

KGeeED...Not sure what you mean? I've seen the movie, but I was making a private joke with my friend and student, Deeman!

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

I am just making a joke. In Karate Kid the kid became a expert by washing and waxing cars. There is no way this could happen. All I am saying is by doing this you may develop the arm strength and if nothing else your car and house will be clean.