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View Full Version : Elbow Drop: yes,no or maybe so?



recoveryjones
04-18-2005, 10:31 PM
In an effort to have my stroke analyised(visual and video) and fine tuned, I've sought out some help from a BCA instuctor.He had me line up long straight in pots and then informed me what he saw wrong with my stroke.

I made several straight in stun shots and the cue ball stopped dead in it's tracks, with no spin on the cueball as it stopped.I allways thought that if the cue ball stopped dead in its tracks and wasn't spinning that, that was a good shot if you also made the pot.To me what the cue ball does after contact on a straight in is a good indicator of whether a stroke was a good one or not.

My instructor told me that my elbow was dropping a few inches(other times even more, even on my good shots) and that we need to eliminate elbow drop altogether.He suggested a shorter bridge 8-9" and a shorter 4inch follow through.At times I hit some great fluid shots with no elbow drop and other times in feels really mechanical as I try to incorporate his teaching into my game.I have allways heard that the only thing that should move in the stroke is your forearm from the elbow joint down.Does this apply to pool?

I observed some of the strokes of the great snooker stars such as Hendry,Higgins,Davis and O'Sullivan and it seems in snooker that they really follow the no elbow drop things religiously, although I see Ronnie O use it on some power shots.They(hendry,Higgins,Davis) also seem to accentuate the pause-set-finish freeze thing that my instructor is trying to teach and when thet do it,it's quite deliberate and very noticable.

Right now I'm watching some old tapes of the 2000 WPC and the first two matches included Efren Reyes and Corey Deule, equally as good in their sport as the above afformentioned snooker stars in their sport.I payed particuliar attention to see if they dropped their elbows during the follow through.Although they had no elbow drop on several shots, on many others they did employ elbow drop.Sometinmes it seemed like 50-50 on the shots the TV showed, however, the TV usually focuses in on the cue ball-object-ball-pocket, rather than a more arial view where you can see what the players cueing arm is doing.My point being is that elbow drop is sometime times (I don't know the percentage) seen in pool,however, rarely ever seen in snooker.

Furthermore (as I mentioned on an earlier post PSFF) the pool players don't seem to accentuate the PSFF as much as the snooker players,however, many do seem to use it, although the freeze portion of the cycle is somewhat brief and in many cases the set and pause a lot more abreviated as compared to snooker.

This all brings me back to my instructor:

He says that many great pool players have overcome stroke flaws with great talent and many,many,many hours on the pool table in the abscense of instruction.
He says if they would have learned the proper way there wouldn't have been a lot less elbow drop.

He's trying to help me become more consistent( mechanical??) with SPFF and eliminate elbow drop as much as possible.I'm just wondering if being that mechanical is the way to go for 9 ball.It seems(eg.TO ME) that a lot of the instructors are trying to teach a snooker style and employ it for 9 ball.Tim White of the Billiard Sanctuary advises using a snooker bridge and snooker stance and trys to model himself after Allison Fisher.(I've seen his dvd's)He even uses this sling that hangs down from the ceiling and hooks up under your arm pit that makes it impossible to drop your elbow during the stroke. He calls this practice device, "The Stroke Perfector."(Has anyone used it. Did it help your stroke?)

http://www.billiardsanctuary.com/

Fisher and Corr have used their snooker styles with great success on the womens tour,however, although Steve Davis has had some success, pool style players (Philipino's etc) seem to dominate.

Which brings me back to my instructor:

I wanted to be more structered(disciplined) in my preshot routine and stroke and I'm very open to SPFF.Basically I want to be more consistent.

Has anyone out there employed this teaching (SPFF,no elbow drop) and seen their game improve dramatically over time?

Is my teacher right by saying that many of these pool players have learned to compensate with swing flaws (elbow drop etc) and would have been better than they are now, had they got proper instruction from the very begginning?

Is there a fine line between getting good mechanics and blending feel and can you get too mechanical and run everything pertaining to 9 ball?

With all the varities and power shots required in nine ball,can it be played successfully if you eliminate elbow drop?

Any answers to the above questions or other observations or comments, much appreciated.I'm totally open-minded and willing to learn what he want's to teach,however,I want to move on with my lessons in confidence. RJ

Rod
04-18-2005, 11:34 PM
My abreviated answer is yes. Elbow drop is fine after the c/b is struck. It doesn't matter then, the c/b is gone and it is a natural motion. It's just letting the weight go forward which pulls your arm into a follow thru.

Problem is many don't do this very well and it drops before the c/b. Teaching a fixed arm is way to rigid IMO but it may be necessary for those that tend to push the cue. That's my short answer. LOL

Rod

Fran Crimi
04-18-2005, 11:51 PM
OK Rod, I get the hint. LOL

I deleted the long-winded diplomatic crapola I posted. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think it's unnecessary to drop your elbow on certain shots and helpful to drop it on certain shots.

There...short and sweet.

Fran

Rod
04-19-2005, 12:12 AM
Aw jeez Fran, I didn't even get to read your post so I haven't a clue. Good to see you back. I missed you and I'm sure many others as well.

Rod

Fran Crimi
04-19-2005, 12:20 AM
LOL! You didn't miss much with my post, but I did learn from your short and concise post. Thanks.

Fran

Rich R.
04-19-2005, 03:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I think it's unnecessary to drop your elbow on certain shots and helpful to drop it on certain shots. <hr /></blockquote>
Could you please filter through some of the crapola you deleted, which I didn't get to read, and expound just a little.

On which shots is the elbow drop helpful and which shots isn't it helpful? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I ask, because I have an elbow drop too, as diagnosed by Scott Lee. I have been trying to overcome it, with limited success. My 30+ years of bad habits just don't want to leave a good home. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Should I continue to attempt to eliminate the elbow drop or
just accept it and work on other things? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

JimS
04-19-2005, 03:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Aw jeez Fran, I didn't even get to read your post so I haven't a clue. Good to see you back. I missed you and I'm sure many others as well.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

Several ditto's here!! How could we not have missed one of the most knowledgeable and articulate posters we've ever had? I've been going to az more lately but having Fran around will bring me back here.

randyg
04-19-2005, 04:25 AM
So Fran &amp; Rod: You're telling us that there are shots that can't be performed unless a person "drops" their elbow?????

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think that's what you both implied. If so, this would be a very nice debate.

We probably should clear up for all the readers: What and when are the three different types of "elbow drops"?????

Respectfully.....SPF-randyg

pooltchr
04-19-2005, 05:12 AM
RJ,
I responded to this same post over at AZB
Steve

Gayle in MD
04-19-2005, 05:31 AM
Ditto Jim,
I, too, am glad to see Fran posting.
I hope we get a good debate right here on this subject. I am very interested myself in hearing it.

Gayle /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rich R.
04-19-2005, 06:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> We probably should clear up for all the readers: What and when are the three different types of "elbow drops"????? <hr /></blockquote>
THREE TYPES OF ELBOW DROP?????
And here, I thought I only had to work on one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Please explain. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Fred Agnir
04-19-2005, 07:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Teaching a fixed arm is way to rigid IMO but it may be necessary for those that tend to push the cue. That's my short answer. LOL<hr /></blockquote>Good answer.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I think it's unnecessary to drop your elbow on certain shots and helpful to drop it on certain shots.
<hr /></blockquote>Again, good answer (actually, both are great answers).

Fred

Fred Agnir
04-19-2005, 07:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> So Fran &amp; Rod: You're telling us that there are shots that can't be performed unless a person "drops" their elbow?????

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think that's what you both implied. If so, this would be a very nice debate.<hr /></blockquote>I think you are putting words into their mouths. I think that although an elbow drop isn't necessary, there is a large faction of players that would benefit with an elbow drop on certain shots.

The same with the loose wrist. It isn't necessary to have a loose wrist. Afterall, most instuctors always tout the "less moving parts is better" theory. But, I don't think there's an instructor that would deny that a loose wrist helps the majority of players.

It's a good point (wrist) to think about when contemplating the validity of the elbow drop. Physiology suggests that dropping the elbow helps to add power with less effort than using the forearm alone. Same holds true with the loose wrist. You achieve higher speed with less effort compared to using the forearm alone. With that in mind, that's where it helps. The cost may be less accuracy. I think depending on the shot, the player should be free to decide which is more important. Most shots don't require much power, so the rigid elbow is fine for 80-90% of the shots. It's those other shots that might be in question.

Fred

GreenLion
04-19-2005, 07:52 AM
I had a lesson awhile back with Scott Lee and he also advised me not to drop the elbow and i think its good not to drop the elbow.Scott Lee sayed that you can mussel shots by droping your elbow and play perfectly well but when you do that your using way to much effort to get the cueball to do what you wanting it to do.Plus i think Scott Lee also said that the more movement you use the greater the chance for error.When you drop your elbow your entire arm must move together(To be in sinc)That means that your upper and lower arm must be moving at the same time.When droping the elbow it easy to accidently move the lower arm alittle bit before moving the Upper part of your arm which causes the stick to sway offline thru the followthru which cuases you to put english on the cueball.At least that was the way it was for me.When you DONT drop the elbow then your making the mechanics simpler cuase your not moving so many things which develops more consistency.The less you have to be concerned about the better.Plus like Scott Lee sayed you use way to much effort with the elbow drop but when you dont drop your elbow then it so effortless to get the cueball to do what you want it to do and you have less to worry about mechanicly.As far as the sling um yes i have used that but i felt like it temperarily made my elbow not drop but after the anertia of keeping my elbow from dropping weared off then the trouble started agian.Scott Lee talked about baraly gripping the stick i mean basicaly just letting it lay in your grip hand.If you use a light grip like that then it really helps if not stop outright the dropping of the elbow.Of course you maintain that light grip thru out the entire stroke from start to finish.Also Scott Lee advised me to have a slow backstroke then a very short puase then fire!The slow backstroke and pause eliminates the jerky stroke and i feel it further helpes the elbow from dropping.I hope this helps.Your instructor is taking you down the right path.

SpiderMan
04-19-2005, 08:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> So Fran &amp; Rod: You're telling us that there are shots that can't be performed unless a person "drops" their elbow?????

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think that's what you both implied. If so, this would be a very nice debate.

We probably should clear up for all the readers: What and when are the three different types of "elbow drops"?????

Respectfully.....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Randy,

I don't think that Rod or Fran implied an elbow drop was a necessary/intentional part of execution, only that it can occur naturally and harmlessly as a consequence of other motions.

Perhaps, as some are fond of saying about the follow-through in general, there is no reason to expend effort resisting the small amount of upper-arm (not shoulder) movement that results in a natural displacement of the elbow.

SpiderMan

Fred Agnir
04-19-2005, 08:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GreenLion:</font><hr> ...also said that the more movement you use the greater the chance for error. <hr /></blockquote>This may be the most often used and most misleading instructional saying there is. There isn't a single physical sport that agrees with this statement. Even darts.

The reason why sports and athletics are what they are is specifically because the athlete is attempting to sync many body parts in an effort to get the maximum. It's the ones who can coordinate all the movements that become proficient.

I think teaching the rigid elbow has its place. But those that teach it must acknowledge the benefits of dropping the elbow or else it's simple denial, IMO. There are entirely too many good players who drop the elbow to discount its use.

Fred &lt;~~~ it's physical; treat it as such

Cane
04-19-2005, 08:30 AM
RJ,

I just said this on another thread, but consistency is the name of the game. When I first sought professional instruction, I had a pretty well pinned elbow on stop and draw shots, but had a pretty significant elbow drop on follow shots. Now, what did this hurt. Well, IF my elbow drop came after the cue contacted the cue ball, it really didn't hurt anything, but the plain simple truth is that it didn't always happen that way. Once in awhile, I would drop just an instant before contact. Man, when I did that, everything that could go wrong did. Unwanted spin, the occasional miscue, lack of speed control. The unwanted spin sometimes was enough to cause a little suirt and the increased or decreased speed definitely made cue ball control more difficult. The elbow drop, on the occasions that I did it before CB contact, was making me lose control of all three things I must control on every shot. Angle, Speed and Spin.

Now, I've been "training" my stroke for quite some time now. It took me a LONG time to replace a bad habit I'd had since I was 8 years old. When I get tired (and at my age, I get tired after a few hours of pool), I still drop my elbow from time to time, and when I do, my game falls off.

Conversely, when I'm fresh and I'm not tired, I keep my elbow pinned, even on my break shots, and I don't break too shabby, and my game is worlds better and MORE CONSISTENT than it was before I eliminated the elbow drop.

Not trying to be contrary, but I really would like to hear from Fran, Rod and Fred why an elbow drop can help on some shots. I'm not saying it can't or doesn't, I'm just saying that since I stopped the drop, my game has become much more consistent. I have ONE stroke that I use for 95% of my shots... there are a couple of specialty strokes that I use, for finesse speed shots and for shots where I'm very close to the OB with the CB (thanks for those, Randy, they've won me MANY a match), but other than that, it's Perpendicular, Set Pause Finish &amp; Freeze, and an elbow that acts like it's nailed to a wall. Before I lost the elbow drop, I'd have never dreamed of striking a cue ball with the outside of the tip outside the edge of the CB, but have no fear of it now. As a matter of fact, there are a LOT more things about my game that have become more consistent after ingraining perpendicular, SPFF and a pinned elbow in my stroke.

Just my 2Cents.

Bob "Consistent stroke = Consistent Game"

Fran Crimi
04-19-2005, 08:55 AM
Hi Jim!

Great to see you! You're too kind. Well, the first thing I wrote in my longer winded post was that this is the stuff that leads to major arguments. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The second thing I wrote was that there are facts and there is methodology. Physics are the facts. Human anatomy is a fact. Everything else is methodology.

The third thing I wrote was that BCA instructors support their methodologies with logic. They don't just say things off the tops of their heads which is why I'm proud to be a BCA Instructor. Not all BCA instructors agree on the logic that leads them to a particular methodology. Nothing wrong with that. It's what gives us all diversity.

Lastly, which I didn't write before...I think the only way to properly debate this issue is around a pool table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

wolfdancer
04-19-2005, 09:04 AM
"....as diagnosed by Scott Lee"
How can you take anybody seriously,that wears them Hawaiian shirts?
You could become like Tiger Woods, and keep searching for that perfect stroke....or just accept a minor deviation from the "norm", kick back and enjoy the game.
If the stroke is so simple...just swing the lower arm only, with the elbow as the pivot point.....why is it so complicated to teach, or in my case, understand?
I don't know if my elbow drops, but as long as the balls drop...I don't care.
Next time you are at the pub try this...lift your beer using only your lower arm....you'll find you can't reach the intended target.....seems like this restricted arm movement, restricts a free follow-through.
Ok, so he dresses funny, but is a pretty good instr.

Cane
04-19-2005, 09:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> &lt;snip&gt; Lastly, which I didn't write before...I think the only way to properly debate this issue is around a pool table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

You're probably right. If Billie doesn't kill me with our move into the new house and shop, I'm going to fire up the Southwind and do some travelling this coming fall. Maybe we can get a few of the BCA crew together and have an Instructor Hash Session. I know this, I'll never quit learning, and will take ANY oppurtunity to be in the same room at the same table with another instructor. Besides, I'm tired of getting beat up by the Tulsa Boys, and need to get out east and get beat up there for awhile! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>Next time you are at the pub try this...lift your beer using only your lower arm....you'll find you can't reach the intended target.....seems like this restricted arm movement, restricts a free follow-through.
<hr /></blockquote>

WD, True, but pool stroke and drinking stroke are two different things. Man, if I played pool as bad as I drink, I'd quit tomorrow. I spill, I slop, I've even hit myself in the front teeth with a 22oz mug of Guiness... probably was a couple of those mugs into the night when I did that, but nevertheless, I blamed it on too many moving parts! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Seriously, why do you need to or would you want to move anything that's not necessary to move the cue on a line with your target? JMO, more moving parts, more chance of error.

Later,
Bob

Stretch
04-19-2005, 10:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> "....as diagnosed by Scott Lee"
How can you take anybody seriously,that wears them Hawaiian shirts?
You could become like Tiger Woods, and keep searching for that perfect stroke....or just accept a minor deviation from the "norm", kick back and enjoy the game.
If the stroke is so simple...just swing the lower arm only, with the elbow as the pivot point.....why is it so complicated to teach, or in my case, understand?
I don't know if my elbow drops, but as long as the balls drop...I don't care.
Next time you are at the pub try this...lift your beer using only your lower arm....you'll find you can't reach the intended target.....seems like this restricted arm movement, restricts a free follow-through.
Ok, so he dresses funny, but is a pretty good instr. <hr /></blockquote>

......Oh damn! I was playing just great and now everyone's got me thinking about my elbow and i'll start playing like crap again. LOL St.~~out of sight out of mind~~

PS incidently i do (with some awareness) drop my elbow cause that's the way i learned how to make the shot. One of them (don't worry there's only a few...but i aint tell'n) is a slight angle into the cushion when the cue ball and object ball are along the same rail. I hate getting stuck on the rail for my next shot so i'll add a little umf by droping the elbow and following through all the way. Every time i do this the cue ball has enough in it to come off the rail nicely even when you think there's not enough angle for movement. Of course you gotta be accurate and know that the pockets will take a firm stroke. Some don't, in that case....you roll it down and take your medicine. lol

Rich R.
04-19-2005, 11:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> How can you take anybody seriously,that wears them Hawaiian shirts?<hr /></blockquote>
When I had my lesson with Scott, oh so long ago, he wasn't wearing one of those "Hawaiian shirts", and it was early enough in the day, so I felt confident in the information he was giving me.
Was I wrong in this assumption? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SPetty
04-19-2005, 11:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> When I had my lesson with Scott, oh so long ago, he wasn't wearing one of those "Hawaiian shirts", and <font color="blue">it was early enough in the day</font color>, so I felt confident in the information he was giving me. <hr /></blockquote>Yeah, but when it gets <font color="blue">later in the day</font color>...

http://members.aol.com/iheart8ball/pics/cueguitar.jpg

/ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Deeman2
04-19-2005, 12:00 PM
Isn't Scott sort of dropping his elbo a little during the air guitar? I did see him bend his elbo on occasion... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Deeman

Cueless Joey
04-19-2005, 12:26 PM
Hmmmmmmmmm. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://joeyincali.mypicgallery.com/samsara/post-shot_large.jpg

DickLeonard
04-19-2005, 12:29 PM
Fred I had the opportunity around 1962/3 to witness a dart match between "TheLord of the Board" from Conn and Danny Tironi from Watervliet,NY. at the P@M Grill on a Sunday Afternoon. No other sport is played like Darts. Everytime a player got to the line everyone would start screaming.

The Lord Turkeyed the first 6 games of Baseball he played while Tironi could only manage 51 or 52. Tironi would play Corks and he shot 27 for each of his 6 games while the King could only score 23/24.

Once Tironi hit 56 in baseball it was all over and he won 10 games at 500+. Golfers and poolplayers would be driven crazy with the yelling and screaming.####

DickLeonard
04-19-2005, 12:32 PM
Wolfdancer you can you just need a tall Pilsner Glass.####

wolfdancer
04-19-2005, 12:47 PM
Dick, we used to call them Schupers, as in this www.keysfleamarket.com/ (http://www.keysfleamarket.com/) ad:
"I have a "schuper" from Tommy's Schuper House in Buffalo, New York, it is in perfect shape, no knicks, etc., and I am looking to sell it. I understand the bar is not there any more, it used to be on Niagara St in Buffalo, NY. Please reply "
Nothing like a cold one, in a chilled Schuper, on a hot summer day.....pool ain't too big there...the game was rubber horseshoes, and if you couldn't throw 80% ringers, at $.35 for beer...you were going to go broke

Fred Agnir
04-19-2005, 12:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> Not trying to be contrary, but I really would like to hear from Fran, Rod and Fred why an elbow drop can help on some shots. I'm not saying it can't or doesn't, I'm just saying that since I stopped the drop, my game has become much more consistent.<hr /></blockquote> I think it's been said many times, but maybe it's just not getting through. Power. You can get more power with less effort by dropping your elbow. It allows you center of gravity to be more involved. Now, before Scott Lee and his disciples jump on those words, I'm not saying that you can't have power without dropping the elbow. Of course you can. But the simple truth is that if you can coordinate the elbow drop with the stroke, you can get more power with less effort. And sometimes, less effort is exactly what some people need in their game.

Is it doom and gloom if you drop your elbow? Of course not, especially in the more power stroking games like pool and 3C. If accuracy and potting skills are more of the focus, then the more mechanical rigid elbow may be more applicable.

It should be no surprise that every pro drops their elbow. And pleeeeeeze no more red herrings about "with enough will you can overcome any fault." That's a copout. Did the instructors ever consider that dropping the elbow is simply more natural and that's why you see so many greats with the dropped elbow? It's not a fault, but rather the result of mastering potting skills along with dropping the elbow. It's natural, and therefore doing things to keep the elbow up during a power stroke might be construed as unnatural.

That being all said, for those that have trouble drawing or hitting the cueball where you intend, try to not drop your elbow.


Fred

Fran Crimi
04-19-2005, 01:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I think it's been said many times, but maybe it's just not getting through. Power. You can get more power with less effort by dropping your elbow. It allows you center of gravity to be more involved. Now, before Scott Lee and his disciples jump on those words, I'm not saying that you can't have power without dropping the elbow. Of course you can. But the simple truth is that if you can coordinate the elbow drop with the stroke, you can get more power with less effort. And sometimes, less effort is exactly what some people need in their game.

Is it doom and gloom if you drop your elbow? Of course not, especially in the more power stroking games like pool and 3C. If accuracy and potting skills are more of the focus, then the more mechanical rigid elbow may be more applicable. <font color="blue">Even ball pocketing gets better when you don't have to force the shot. </font color>

It should be no surprise that every pro drops their elbow. And pleeeeeeze no more red herrings about "with enough will you can overcome any fault." That's a copout. Did the instructors ever consider that dropping the elbow is simply more natural and that's why you see so many greats with the dropped elbow? It's not a fault, but rather the result of mastering potting skills along with dropping the elbow. It's natural, and therefore doing things to keep the elbow up during a power stroke might be construed as unnatural.

That being all said, for those that have trouble drawing or hitting the cueball where you intend, try to not drop your elbow.


Fred
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Boy, you are right on the money. </font color>

Fran (not calling Fred a boy)

wolfdancer
04-19-2005, 01:34 PM
Fred, good post !!!
I may be wrong, but I think that trying not to drop your upper arm, combined with a long bridge, causes miscues on draw shots.
I got rid of most of my miscues, and gained a few extra diamond's distance on draw shots....just by employing a shorter bridge.
There's a golf drill where you stick a towel under your left arm, swing and try not to drop the towel (we were warned in the Navy, not to drop your towel either, but that's a different sport)
Anyway, the drill teaches you to time your swing, but I wouldn't try to play golf, and not let my arm go free at the end.

Scott Lee
04-19-2005, 02:27 PM
Well Fran...Here we are again...in the Old Same Place. You know, 'ya can't get there from here'! LOL I've debated this 'elbow drop' concept with you before. Dropping the elbow is a much more complicated muscle movement. More complexity provides a greater potential for error in the stroke. Simplicity is the route to better consistency overall. I have said it before, and I'll say it again, Fran...meet me somewhere and prove it to me. If you can show me a shot that you can shoot with a dropped elbow, and get whatever end result you want, and I cannot perform the EXACT SAME SHOT, without dropping the elbow...then you'll have some valid ammunition, and I'm willing to listen and learn. Until then...

As far as you Fred...you're mistaken when you say catagorically that ALL pros drop their elbow. This is simply not true, and can be seen in many videos, dvds, and live matches. IMO, it is NOT true that you can generate more 'power' by dropping the elbow. There are two ways to play pool...use the weight of the cue and timing to create the swing speed; or grip the cue tightly, and use arm and shoulder muscles to drive the cue through the CB. Both work, for pocketing and to gain position. One is MUCH easier to repeat, and much easier to control. Guess which one that is? Hint: it's NOT the muscled swing!

So, overall, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Randy and I have had far too many successful students, who have improved their games immediately, and permanently, to discount the philosophy that we teach!

Respectfully,

Scott Lee

SpiderMan
04-19-2005, 02:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> RJ,

Not trying to be contrary, but I really would like to hear from Fran, Rod and Fred why an elbow drop can help on some shots. <hr /></blockquote>

My opinion (we've all got one, haven't we) is that the elbow drop is just a natural consequence of other motions, particularly when you are shooting harder. Think of it as a follow-through - it's not something you try to force, but neither is it something you expend effort stopping.

I think of it as being pinned at the shoulder rather than the elbow. It adds one variable, but makes the motion more effortless and eliminates some of that excessive dippy-tip-swooping that results from a fixed elbow on power strokes.

SpiderMan

Fran Crimi
04-19-2005, 03:04 PM
Scott,

Fred didn't say you could get more power by dropping your elbow. He said you could get more power with less effort. That's a whole different ball game.

[ QUOTE ]
Fran...meet me somewhere and prove it to me. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for your offer but I think I'll pass. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

wolfdancer
04-19-2005, 03:42 PM
Do I detect some dissension within the ranks??

Fran Crimi
04-19-2005, 03:46 PM
No, I think you detect some di-sec-tion within the ranks. LOL.

I don't know about anyone else, but it's all in good fun on my end. Hey, life's too short to box with God. (I have no idea what that means; I just liked the name of that play on Broadway.)

wolfdancer
04-19-2005, 04:06 PM
Scott, hope that you and Fran don't get into a running debate on this topic. It's been nice to see her back posting again....but before she left, there was a group here that questioned/ put down, everything that she posted.
I think most of us are savy enough to decide if something will work, or not for our stroke.
Hey, I've been hitting 'em ok lately, and had a nice game going in a big team event in Long Beach over the weekend. Just missed by a hair from getting my third table run, in three games on sat...won that one though.
Sun was a different story...on the way back home on sat,traffic was stopped on the bridge between Wa...and Or. I walked ahead to see if there was an accident, or if someone needed help...Someone did, but it was too late, he had jumped, about a 100 ft fall, and not a pretty sight. After losing a couple of hours I drove back, the motels were closed, and I froze trying to sleep in my car. On sun I couldn't keep my eyes open, couldn't make a ball.....but I didn't have as bad a day as that poor guy.
Pool, golf, games, just ain't worth arguing about, when you put them in the greater context of life.
And besides, I think you guys are on the same page, about pool theory, pool mechanics

Rod
04-19-2005, 04:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> So Fran &amp; Rod: You're telling us that there are shots that can't be performed unless a person "drops" their elbow?????

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think that's what you both implied. If so, this would be a very nice debate.

We probably should clear up for all the readers: What and when are the three different types of "elbow drops"?????

Respectfully.....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>


You know what happens when you assume? That is not at all what I implied. Re-read my post. Momentum pulls your arm through. Since a large percentage of pool shots have little momentum the elbow doesn't move. Add more power and it is perfectly acceptable after contact. Nothing is forced, it's natural.

Don't be coy Randy, any good instructor knows the difference. Take a quiz from the guy that made up the answers. LOL Last time I did that you added something that was not called out in the original question. I wonder why that was? Go ahead and clear that up for the readers.

Respectfully, Rod

PQQLK9
04-19-2005, 04:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> No, I think you detect some di-sec-tion within the ranks. LOL.

I don't know about anyone else, but it's all in good fun on my end. Hey, life's too short to box with God. (I have no idea what that means; I just liked the name of that play on Broadway.) <hr /></blockquote>

Actually the play was "Your arms are to short to box with God".

I know you know that and it was probably a Freudian slip because the arm is connected to the elbow. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

tateuts
04-19-2005, 04:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> You know what happens when you assume? <hr /></blockquote>

Yes. I know that. You make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".

Alfie
04-19-2005, 05:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote GreenLion:</font><hr> ...also said that the more movement you use the greater the chance for error. <hr /></blockquote>This may be the most often used and most misleading instructional saying there is. There isn't a single physical sport that agrees with this statement. Even darts.<hr /></blockquote>I think they all do. The darters don't throw like baseball pitchers. Of course, there must be sufficient movement and coordination of body parts to produce an optimum result. But any extra is unnecessary and can only hurt.

-- keeping my head down

Alfie
04-19-2005, 05:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> We probably should clear up for all the readers: What and when are the three different types of "elbow drops"?????<hr /></blockquote>That's what I'm talkin' 'bout.

Fran Crimi
04-19-2005, 06:08 PM
Actually the play was "Your arms are to short to box with God".

I know you know that and it was probably a Freudian slip because the arm is connected to the elbow. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>


/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Hahaha! Great catch, Nick.

wolfdancer
04-19-2005, 06:28 PM
I think a great sign in name for a dart message board, would be
D'artanian.....but I'm sure that's been done.
Are there any good books about darts? I just bought a board, and have both steel tips and soft tips....but I've never thrown darts before....looks deceivingly easy, like pool on tv

randyg
04-19-2005, 07:13 PM
POSTERS: Some players:
1. Drop their elbow to start their shot.
2. Drop their elbow right about contact with the cueball.

3. Drop their elbow after the cueball has been contacted.

The only elbow drops I see in a few of the pro's is the latter. The first two are deadly....SPF-randyg

Bob_Jewett
04-19-2005, 07:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>...
As far as you Fred...you're mistaken when you say catagorically that ALL pros drop their elbow. This is simply not true, and can be seen in many videos, dvds, and live matches. .. <hr /></blockquote>
I've watched quite a few pros specifically for elbow drop. In my experience, there is only one pro that I've watched carefully who has minimal or no elbow drop on power shots. That player is Tony Robles. All the others drop their elbows by at least the thickness of the upper arm at the end of the stroke during follow through. See the February and March 2004 issues of Billiards Digest.

Which players have I missed?

I think there are at least five kinds of elbow drop.

Cueless Joey
04-19-2005, 08:15 PM
How 'bout those who just let the cue go Bob?
I think the argument is really moot for those who just let the cue slide.

Qtec
04-19-2005, 08:16 PM
Everyone should watch this video. Go here video (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ru_en&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pr obilliard.info%2F_misc%2Fpool-video.php) scrol down to the 3rd match- M.Siegel.


"Dropping the elbow is a much more complicated muscle movement."
I disagree. Like Spiderman said, its a natural movement. Nothing complicated about that. The video above shows a perfect example of this.
Also note that when Mike plays a stun shot he doesnt hit it lower and softer. If fact he does the opposite. He tends to hit the QB higher and harder!


I think everyone agrees that elbow drop BEFORE you hit the ball is not a good idea.


Q....my 2ct....

Fran Crimi
04-20-2005, 06:35 AM
Tony will drop his arm when he feels he needs to. One day at Corner Billiards he was demonstrating a power draw shot on a fairly slow cloth. He used a complete elbow drop with a full arm extension in his follow through. If you didn't know it, you'd think he just shot a break shot. I asked him why he extended his arm like that. He said, "Are you kidding? It's the best!"

Fran


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> I've watched quite a few pros specifically for elbow drop. In my experience, there is only one pro that I've watched carefully who has minimal or no elbow drop on power shots. That player is Tony Robles. All the others drop their elbows by at least the thickness of the upper arm at the end of the stroke during follow through. See the February and March 2004 issues of Billiards Digest.

Which players have I missed?

I think there are at least five kinds of elbow drop. <hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
04-20-2005, 10:14 AM
I just wanted to thank recoveryjones for posting an insightful and debate-provoking message. I know elbow-drop is a perennial topic, but it is still interesting to read all of the different perspectives from such an experienced, diverse, and vocal crowd. I think the CCB is blessed to have such a great group of active participants.

I agree with many that elbow drop is OK if it works for an individual for certain (or even all) shots ... as long as it can be controlled reliably. However, as others have pointed out, dropping the elbow before cue ball contact can be problematic.

Regards,
Dr. Dave

PS: I have recently worked to mostly eliminate elbow-drop from my game (except with power break and power draw shots), and it has helped. I've even experimented recently with adding a back-of-the-stroke "pause." The jury's still out on that (for me).

Fred Agnir
04-20-2005, 10:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Dropping the elbow is a much more complicated muscle movement. More complexity provides a greater potential for error in the stroke. <hr /></blockquote> If this is the basis of your argument, I think you're grossly incorrect.


[ QUOTE ]
Simplicity is the route to better consistency overall. <hr /></blockquote>Simplicity may lie in more muscles involved, not less. Take any example from darts to shooting baskets to weight lifting. Even your mentor Jack White advocated more movement in the wrist to get more velocity with less effort. It's absolutely the same concept. If you share the load among several muscles, each muscle is less taxed. Whether you can coordinate it for consistency is a completely different topic.


[ QUOTE ]
As far as you Fred...you're mistaken when you say catagorically that ALL pros drop their elbow. This is simply not true, and can be seen in many videos, dvds, and live matches. <hr /></blockquote> I thought I was quite clear what I said. I won't argue a point I didn't make. If that's how you heard it, no wonder you continue on debating it. I did say that the vast majority of pro player drop their elbow on certain shots. You absolutely cannot deny this.

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, it is NOT true that you can generate more 'power' by dropping the elbow.<hr /></blockquote> What's your basis?


[ QUOTE ]
If you can show me a shot that you can shoot with a dropped elbow, and get whatever end result you want, and I cannot perform the EXACT SAME SHOT, without dropping the elbow...then you'll have some valid ammunition, <hr /></blockquote>This is a bogus argument, Scott. If you can drive a nail in a board with your hand, does that give validity over using a hammer??? Of course not. We're talking effort, not possibility.

Have you ever taken a human anatomy class? Physiology? Body dynamics? Industrial ergonomics? What do you base your "less muscles is simpler" idea? Doesn't the fact that you advocate a loose wrist confirm that indeed more muscles involved aren't an alien idea?

Fred

Scott Lee
04-20-2005, 11:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> All the others drop their elbows by at least the thickness of the upper arm at the end of the stroke during follow through.
<hr /></blockquote>

Bob...Watch Ralf Souquet, Alison or Karen. However, I agree with you about the above statement. I do not consider that "elbow drop". What I'm talking about is the complete collapse of the elbow, almost to the table...which is consistent with most descriptions of what we're actually talking about here. An elbow drop of a couple of inches, while still maintaining the technical qualities and timing of the swing, will have minimal effect on the outcome of the stroke. As Randy said, the elbow collapse can significantly affect the outcome/success of the stroke, if it happens before, or at the same time, as contact with the CB. JMO, but keeping the stroke simple is the quickest path to consistency, and confidence in improving your pool game.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
04-20-2005, 11:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Scott,

Fred didn't say you could get more power by dropping your elbow. He said you could get more power with less effort. That's a whole different ball game.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Fran...meet me somewhere and prove it to me. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for your offer but I think I'll pass. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Fran...Yep, and trying to achieve "power", without a refined stroke, is what leads most players to excessive errors. I think the elbow collapse is just another way to make the natural stroke that much more difficult to perfect.

I do find it interesting, to some degree, that you seem to believe you possess some "secret knowledge" that neither Randy nor I have, yet you apparently don't want to share it! Too bad...I'm certainly open to learning new things...
particularly if it's something I'd want to add to my own style of teaching... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

Scott Lee
04-20-2005, 11:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Scott, hope that you and Fran don't get into a running debate on this topic.

And besides, I think you guys are on the same page, about pool theory, pool mechanics <hr /></blockquote>

Jack...Yep, we are mostly on the same page, and that's really all that matters, isn't it? It's about teaching others how to learn to play the game easily.

As far as a debate...there IS no debate in my mind. I'm certainly open to learning new things or techniques...such as my recent introduction to, and subsequent adaptation of, SAM...which Randy learned from Hal Houle, and massaged into an aiming system that we use to help our students learn angles more easily. However, until someone can demonstrate to me, the advantages of an elbow collapse within the normal confines of a natural stroke (where it doesn't take away from the accuracy and repeatability of using a pinned elbow), I will not be teaching that to my students. Show me different, and I'm a believer! It's the same with techniques like backhand english. They work sometimes for some people...but they are difficult to control. If you like it...use it. If you're looking to improve your stroke, and have been trying for a long time, it's likely that a good instructor would suggest taking out those elements that make the swing and timing more complex and/or difficult to repeat!

Scott

Alfie
04-20-2005, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Doesn't the fact that you advocate a loose wrist confirm that indeed more muscles involved aren't an alien idea? <hr /></blockquote> doesn't a loose wrist mean less muscle tension?

Fran Crimi
04-20-2005, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>

I do find it interesting, to some degree, that you seem to believe you possess some "secret knowledge" that neither Randy nor I have, yet you apparently don't want to share it! Too bad...I'm certainly open to learning new things...
particularly if it's something I'd want to add to my own style of teaching... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott
<hr /></blockquote>

There's no big esoteric secret, Scott. You can figure it out yourself. I think the two-way learning process is great when two Instructors get together. I do it all the time and I'll be happy to continue that with any BCA Instructor who comes to town, like Cane and others who'd like to stop by.

However, I know the difference between an invitation to share and a challenge with the intent to discredit. It's hard to shoot elbow drop shots wearing full knights armour.


Fran

Wally_in_Cincy
04-20-2005, 12:34 PM
of all the things to get upset about and argue about....

scratches head /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Eric.
04-20-2005, 12:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> All the others drop their elbows by at least the thickness of the upper arm at the end of the stroke during follow through.
<hr /></blockquote>

Bob...Watch Ralf Souquet, Alison or Karen. However, I agree with you about the above statement. I do not consider that "elbow drop". What I'm talking about is the complete collapse of the elbow, almost to the table...which is consistent with most descriptions of what we're actually talking about here. An elbow drop of a couple of inches, while still maintaining the technical qualities and timing of the swing, will have minimal effect on the outcome of the stroke. As Randy said, the elbow collapse can significantly affect the outcome/success of the stroke, if it happens before, or at the same time, as contact with the CB. JMO, but keeping the stroke simple is the quickest path to consistency, and confidence in improving your pool game.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

While Ralf, Allison, Karen and a few others don't drop the elbow, I noticed that the majority of top players do. Saying that you were "talking about is the complete collapse of the elbow, almost to the table" isn't really in the same context of this topic. I don't think anyone drops their elbow to the table, unless we are talking about people that really don't know how to play Pool. Most of the elbow drops in top players range from "the thickness of the upper arm" to a little bit more than that, but not much more (unless you're talking about Mike Davis /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ). Generally, most people wouldn't consider that "elbow collapse". So I guess, by your statements, you do agree that a moderate elbow drop is OK?


Eric

SpiderMan
04-20-2005, 12:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> All the others drop their elbows by at least the thickness of the upper arm at the end of the stroke during follow through.
<hr /></blockquote>

Bob...Watch Ralf Souquet, Alison or Karen. However, I agree with you about the above statement. I do not consider that "elbow drop". What I'm talking about is the complete collapse of the elbow, almost to the table...which is consistent with most descriptions of what we're actually talking about here. An elbow drop of a couple of inches, while still maintaining the technical qualities and timing of the swing, will have minimal effect on the outcome of the stroke. <hr /></blockquote>

Scott,

Are you fading a little bit to "our" side? Randy too? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan (sometimes a sensitive ear for pedals rotating in reverse)

Rod
04-20-2005, 01:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What I'm talking about is the complete collapse of the elbow, almost to the table...which is consistent with most descriptions of what we're actually talking about here. <hr /></blockquote>

Jeez Scott, you'd have to have a heart attack to do that. LOL Or one of the worst pool strokes imagineable.

Rod

Rod
04-20-2005, 01:50 PM
Well Wally I feel the same about those political threads. Ha Ha Ha! So do you drop, or not?? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod

Deeman2
04-20-2005, 01:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Well Wally I feel the same about those political threads. Ha Ha Ha! So do you drop, or not?? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Rod,

I dropped when I was 13 but they had surgery for it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

Deeman
Scott taught me not to drop, most times....

wolfdancer
04-20-2005, 02:17 PM
"of all the things to get upset about and argue about..."
I agree, Wally.....it might be time to drop, the elbow drop debate.

SpiderMan
04-20-2005, 02:29 PM
Hey Rod,

Scott said that, not me. I'm in your camp this time.

SpiderMan

Bob_Jewett
04-20-2005, 03:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> ...

Bob...Watch Ralf Souquet, Alison or Karen. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, I did watch Allison Fisher carefully one time. I think you need to take her off your list unless her elbow has gotten stiller than it was. My observation was that like many players, Allison drops her elbow at the end of a power shot, and does not drop her elbow on soft shots. I saw Ralf and Karen at the Trade Show a couple of weeks ago, but failed to watch carefully.

Rod
04-20-2005, 04:24 PM
Allison does drop her elbow, at least on the break. Karen drops hers big time on the break.

Rod

Fred Agnir
04-20-2005, 05:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Doesn't the fact that you advocate a loose wrist confirm that indeed more muscles involved aren't an alien idea? <hr /></blockquote> doesn't a loose wrist mean less muscle tension? <hr /></blockquote>Ah yes. Now we're getting somewhere, even if you think you're proving something opposite to what I'm saying. In reality, you're going the same direction as what I'm talking about.

Fred &lt;~~~ loose wrist, loose elbow. Same thing.

Fred Agnir
04-20-2005, 05:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Fran...Yep, and trying to achieve "power", without a refined stroke, is what leads most players to excessive errors.<hr /></blockquote>

Whether you can coordinate it for consistency is a completely different topic.

Fred

pooltchr
04-20-2005, 06:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
PS: I have recently worked to mostly eliminate elbow-drop from my game (except with power break and power draw shots), and it has helped. I've even experimented recently with adding a back-of-the-stroke "pause." The jury's still out on that (for me). <hr /></blockquote>

Glad to see you are having success here. Given time, I think you will see the benefits of the pause as well.
The more I practice these things, the better my game continues to get. Improvement at this game often comes slowly, but as long as it continues, I'm happy.
The results will come with time.
Steve

dr_dave
04-20-2005, 07:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>Given time, I think you will see the benefits of the pause as well.<hr /></blockquote>
Actually, I'm not convinced that the middle-of-the-stroke pause is a good thing (and I read and participated in the entire thread dealing with this topic). I plan to think about this some more and talk to some sports biomechanics people I know on campus to get their input. Usually I don't embrace something unless I believe in it. If I think the pause is a bad thing, it probably won't help to force it into my game. The mind is a powerful thing.

Dr. Dave

kdd9
04-20-2005, 11:39 PM
Dr. Dave, your statement reminds me of a reply that I made to another thread that touched on the same subject. I checked it out again and copied my response to it. This is it:

TauBeta wrote:
I have Jimmy Reid's DVDs. He suggests not to pause or stop during your stroke but to keep the motion continuous. He claims that by pausing you tense up your muscles and lose your rythmn.

[My response:]

I always thought so too untill I tried it. It's just a very slight pause at the end of the backstroke. Hardly even noticeable to anyone watching. It has been the most significant improvement in my stroke in quite a while. It really has worked for me. I do realize that not all things work for the same people though. More recently, upon reading about it somewhere, I have incorporated a slight acceleration into the forward stroke, i.e., starting out the forward motion slowly and ever so gradually increasing the speed as the arm pushes forward. I'm still working on this, but, again, it has produced positive results. Sheeeze, there is so much to learn!

[End of paste]

I would be interested in knowing whether or not you feel differently about it too after trying it -- the pause, that is. I noticed some advanced players doing it, otherwise I never would have considered trying it myself. It just didn't seem like a natural thing to do. Seemed like it would break the momentum of the swing. I was surprised. I hope that you will post your findings and opinions somewhere after experimenting with it.

Alfie
04-21-2005, 12:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Now we're getting somewhere, even if you think you're proving something opposite to what I'm saying. In reality, you're going the same direction as what I'm talking about.

Fred &lt;~~~ loose wrist, loose elbow. Same thing. <hr /></blockquote>o-o-o, Fred, you're slick. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif BTW, I agree with you on some degree of elbow drop for power shots, but I have this compulsion to nitpick the arguments. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

nhp
04-21-2005, 12:34 AM
I think before everyone argues about this, both sides should be clear on the definition of elbow drop. Is it slightly dropping your elbow, even an inch, or is it dropping it all the way down to the table? If dropping your elbow applies to only dropping it a few inches, then yes, 99% of all the pros do it on most of their shots. If it's dropping your elbow nearly down to the rail, most pros don't do that.

randyg
04-21-2005, 03:54 AM
DR DAVE: What are the three (3) reasons why we "pause" on the back stroke? See you soon????........SPF-randyg

Fran Crimi
04-21-2005, 06:12 AM
Hi Dr. Dave,

I've enjoyed reading your posts, particularly your scientific approach to studying the game. Every sport needs its R&amp;D and I believe that it's people like you, Bob Jewett, and Fred, among others, who help provide the factual basis from which we can form our methodologies.

I'd be very interested in finding out where your research regarding the pause takes you. I hope you keep us posted.

Fran

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>Given time, I think you will see the benefits of the pause as well.<hr /></blockquote>
Actually, I'm not convinced that the middle-of-the-stroke pause is a good thing (and I read and participated in the entire thread dealing with this topic). I plan to think about this some more and talk to some sports biomechanics people I know on campus to get their input. Usually I don't embrace something unless I believe in it. If I think the pause is a bad thing, it probably won't help to force it into my game. The mind is a powerful thing.

Dr. Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
04-21-2005, 06:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Well Wally I feel the same about those political threads. <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yeah but it's usually fairly civil debate IMO. We shake hands afterward and say "nice battle"

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> So do you drop, or not?? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Nope.

Sorry for bringing the thread back but I have a feeling this won't be the last post.

dr_dave
04-21-2005, 07:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>I've enjoyed reading your posts, particularly your scientific approach to studying the game. Every sport needs its R&amp;D and I believe that it's people like you, Bob Jewett, and Fred, among others, who help provide the factual basis from which we can form our methodologies.<hr /></blockquote>
Thanks Fran. I also greatly appreciate all of the posts from you and all of the other great instructors out there. I've learned way more than I have contributed to this forum.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>I'd be very interested in finding out where your research regarding the pause takes you. I hope you keep us posted.<hr /></blockquote>
I will.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
04-21-2005, 07:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote kdd9:</font><hr>I would be interested in knowing whether or not you feel differently about it too after trying it -- the pause, that is. I noticed some advanced players doing it, otherwise I never would have considered trying it myself. It just didn't seem like a natural thing to do. Seemed like it would break the momentum of the swing. I was surprised. I hope that you will post your findings and opinions somewhere after experimenting with it.<hr /></blockquote>
I have tried it and I will continue to try it, with an open mind. I agree that when you see some top players doing it (e.g., Allison Fisher), and because it is so prevalent in the snooker world (where accuracy is critical), it is difficult to argue against it. However, I still think the jury is still out based on everything I've read. I still plan to get some input from some sports biomechanics people I know. I will report back when I have a solid argument to make on either side.

Regards,
Dave

Cueless Joey
04-21-2005, 07:20 AM
Imho, one distinct advantage of dropping the elbow or piston type stroke is on the follow through the shaft is kept in line much longer and more naturally becuause it follows a straight line and on level with the stroke.
On the no-elbow drop stroke, the shaft really is on level and in line with the stroke for a short period only after the tip makes contact with the cb.

Rod
04-21-2005, 07:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>

Yeah but it's usually fairly civil debate IMO.
<hr /></blockquote>

Civil!! Ha Ha Ha /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif There are pure outright haters of certain politicians. Then they hate you because you like them. I won't mention any names, that's easy enough if you spend any time reading the threads, which you do. LOL

I drop, politician threads, that is. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Ya this thread will continue on no doubt, to your dismay but your right, it's been hashed out all it needs. I didn't learn anything new. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

dr_dave
04-21-2005, 07:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> DR DAVE: What are the three (3) reasons why we "pause" on the back stroke? See you soon????........SPF-randyg<hr /></blockquote>
Randy, I look forward to attending your school in June. Thanks again for so graciously inviting me. I'm starting work on another book soon; and to me, open-minded research and listening to others are the most important elements of my work.

I look forward to learning everything I can from your school, including what you think are the three most important reasons for the pause. Right now, I would guess:
1.) help create more concentration during the final stroke.
2.) have time to verify your aiming line and assure your confidence in the shot.
3.) separate the back motion from the forward motion to help prevent an awkward transition.

What does your list look like? Also, what do you see as the three disadvantages of pausing?

Regards,
Dave

SpiderMan
04-21-2005, 07:41 AM
You just quoted Scott Lee, and attributed it to me. I actually replied to his post in my response above yours.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> ...

Bob...Watch Ralf Souquet, Alison or Karen. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, I did watch Allison Fisher carefully one time. I think you need to take her off your list unless her elbow has gotten stiller than it was. My observation was that like many players, Allison drops her elbow at the end of a power shot, and does not drop her elbow on soft shots. I saw Ralf and Karen at the Trade Show a couple of weeks ago, but failed to watch carefully. <hr /></blockquote>

One
04-21-2005, 08:09 AM
Drop elbow enough to keep cue straight after hitting cueball.

Qtec
04-21-2005, 08:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
What I'm talking about is the complete collapse of the elbow, almost to the table...which is consistent with most descriptions of what we're actually talking about here. <hr /></blockquote>

Let me refresh your memory.
The original post....
[ QUOTE ]
He had me line up long straight in pots and then informed me what he saw wrong with my stroke.

I made several straight in stun shots and the cue ball stopped dead in it's tracks, with no spin on the cueball as it stopped.I allways thought that if the cue ball stopped dead in its tracks and wasn't spinning that, that was a good shot if you also made the pot.To me what the cue ball does after contact on a straight in is a good indicator of whether a stroke was a good one or not. <font color="blue"> Yes it is. Q </font color>

My instructor told me that my elbow was dropping a few inches[(other times even more, even on my good shots) and that we need to eliminate elbow drop altogether. <hr /></blockquote>

No mention of a "total collapse"!




Q

Scott Lee
04-21-2005, 09:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
There's no big esoteric secret, Scott. You can figure it out yourself. I think the two-way learning process is great when two Instructors get together. I do it all the time and I'll be happy to continue that with any BCA Instructor who comes to town, like Cane and others who'd like to stop by.

However, I know the difference between an invitation to share and a challenge with the intent to discredit. It's hard to shoot elbow drop shots wearing full knights armour.


Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Fran...Why in the world would you think I would even WANT to discredit you. You're a fine instructor, helping people learn to play pool, just like I am. The fact that we disagree on a particular shooting style, says nothing about me wanting to discredit you. I stated clearly, that if you knew something I didn't, I'd like to know about it, so that I might choose to add that to my own teaching style. Why you apparently feel 'threatened', I'm not exactly sure! So...if I come to YOUR house (Corner Billiards), are you willing to demonstrate what you're talking about, to establish your position? I'm not talking about arguing, I'm talking about sharing information...which you said you're all about!

Scott Lee

randyg
04-21-2005, 11:58 AM
DR Dave:

1. Physics. Motion back has to stop before 180 degrees forward.

2. Muscles. Tricep has to release and give full control to the Bicep.

3. You got it. Eyes must have time to focus.

There is one big disadvantage, if the wrong person tries to "pause" too long, the tension that they tried to release is back.

The "ONLY" reason we take a backstroke is to give us room to accelerate forward.

See you soon....SPF-randyg

randyg
04-21-2005, 12:00 PM
ONE: Why do you have to drop your elbow to keep YOUR cue straight....SPF-randyg

Bob_Jewett
04-21-2005, 12:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>...
1. Physics. Motion back has to stop before 180 degrees forward.

... <hr /></blockquote>
I think that as stated before, pausing is very different physically from changing direction. Technically, physically, there is no reason to have a pause.

kdd9
04-21-2005, 12:13 PM
[quote
I have tried it and I will continue to try it, with an open mind. I agree that when you see some top players doing it (e.g., Allison Fisher), and because it is so prevalent in the snooker world (where accuracy is critical), it is difficult to argue against it. However, I still think the jury is still out based on everything I've read. I still plan to get some input from some sports biomechanics people I know. I will report back when I have a solid argument to make on either side.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Fair enough. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

dr_dave
04-21-2005, 01:27 PM
FYI, Randy's reply is here (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=189445&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> DR DAVE: What are the three (3) reasons why we "pause" on the back stroke? See you soon????........SPF-randyg<hr /></blockquote>
Randy, I look forward to attending your school in June. Thanks again for so graciously inviting me. I'm starting work on another book soon; and to me, open-minded research and listening to others are the most important elements of my work.

I look forward to learning everything I can from your school, including what you think are the three most important reasons for the pause. Right now, I would guess:
1.) help create more concentration during the final stroke.
2.) have time to verify your aiming line and assure your confidence in the shot.
3.) separate the back motion from the forward motion to help prevent an awkward transition.

What does your list look like? Also, what do you see as the three disadvantages of pausing?

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman2
04-21-2005, 01:39 PM
Not exactly germain but we have a guy here in East Texas who has forgottoen how to miss a cut shot at least while I've been in town, Carl has the strangest set up for a shot. He places the tip of the cue about .010" from the place he wants to strike it, no warm up strokes, pauses for about ten seconds (I'm not exagerating here). He does not move a muscle until he pulls back and fires. I notice no pause in the back of his swing and very little shoulder drop. I do notice ball that split the pocket at rediculous angles. He is the most consistent player in the area and runs out from anywhere. Anyone ever seen someone shoot like this. He never had a lesson and is completly self taught. I loaned him "Play your Best Nine Ball" in order to hope he picks up at least one bad habit from reading it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Deeman

wolfdancer
04-21-2005, 01:57 PM
Dr. Dave, Re: the three reasons.....RandyG is wrong!!!
There just ain't no such animal as a bicep. We humans,
however, are gifted with both biceps brachii, and biceps
femoris. I assume he's refering to the brachii, although
he should see my full body stroke.
Anyway, calling that muscle a bicep is gross, but not gross anatomy.
say, what kinda school you running down there, you let that one slip by? you Colo. boys got to get off them there slopes, once in awhile....get grounded lol

wolfdancer
04-21-2005, 02:42 PM
Patrick...your answer is right on.
I just happened to watch 'The Hustler" last nite...a friend loaned me his copy....and noticed both "Fats" and "Fast" with
an elbow drop, and if it's good enough for them....it's good enough for me.
Trying NOT to have a slight drop, at the end caused me to miscue on hard draw shots, I believe.
By the way, i was the "one" that wrote ".....fiasco" Do you know how hard it is to rhyme with fiasco? I couldn't pass it up

Fred Agnir
04-21-2005, 03:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I plan to think about this some more and talk to some sports biomechanics people I know on campus to get their input. Usually I don't embrace something unless I believe in it. If I think the pause is a bad thing, it probably won't help to force it into my game. The mind is a powerful thing.

Dr. Dave <hr /></blockquote>Great idea. Please be sure that your colleague has at least some clue about the game.

I think because pool takes both accuracy and finesse that there will be a give and take on whether you go with the flow of your natural body or go towards more of a structured stroke sequence.

THat is, let's find out what the pros and cons are, not just the cons.

Fred

Fred Agnir
04-21-2005, 03:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> I think before everyone argues about this, both sides should be clear on the definition of elbow drop. Is it slightly dropping your elbow, even an inch, or is it dropping it all the way down to the table? <hr /></blockquote>I think most of us are talking about a few inches, maybe 5" max.

But the very heavy monster draw shots (Nevel, Deuel, etc.), those guys drop it a foot or more.

Fred

Fran Crimi
04-21-2005, 04:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
Fran...Why in the world would you think I would even WANT to discredit you. You're a fine instructor, helping people learn to play pool, just like I am. The fact that we disagree on a particular shooting style, says nothing about me wanting to discredit you. I stated clearly, that if you knew something I didn't, I'd like to know about it, so that I might choose to add that to my own teaching style. Why you apparently feel 'threatened', I'm not exactly sure! So...if I come to YOUR house (Corner Billiards), are you willing to demonstrate what you're talking about, to establish your position? I'm not talking about arguing, I'm talking about sharing information...which you said you're all about!

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

We had this conversation at least a year, maybe year and a half ago. You're still arguing the same things you argued then. It doesn't seem like you bothered to do any research at all. You've said all that "show me" stuff before and nothing ever happened. Instead you continued going around the country preaching never to drop your elbow, even a few inches (at least in one instance recorded here in this thread).

Randy always leaves the door open for possibilities. I respect him for that. Bob Jewett is always searching for new and interesting things to figure out. Fred never stops questioning things. But you locked the door and threw away the key on this elbow thing. I have no idea why you would do that about anything in pool, but that's what you did. I think you're a nice person and a good teacher and I'm sure you'll be a Master Instructor in the near future.

But personally, I would like to see you figure it out on your own. You're more than capable of it and doing your own research is a good habit to get into. Just get out there, bite the bullet a little and drop your elbow and see what happens. And if you say you've already done that, then do it again...and again...and again. Drop it a little, drop it a lot, loosen your grip, tighten your grip, etc. With all due respect, Scott, that's what the rest of us did.

Fran

DickLeonard
04-21-2005, 04:19 PM
Scott,Dr.Dave,Fran and everyone else I want to add my two cents. I don't know anyone on the board who has played Willie Mosconi besides me and his elbow was tucked behind his back and he held the cue at the beginning of the wrap then he slipped stroked on the final delivery. His cue never formed the 90* angle of todays players. ####

tateuts
04-21-2005, 04:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I'm starting work on another book soon; and to me, open-minded research and listening to others are the most important elements of my work.
<hr /></blockquote>

I do not normally drop my elbow. This is the way we were taught back then. It was a problem too because in order to develop any real power on my break shots and power strokes, I had to learn to let the elbow go through. I think not dropping the elbow on follow through "straightjackets" the stroke.

I think it would be interesting to film various pro players from the side and behind, comparing their shoulder/arm/elbow positions during each phase of the stroke, and doing an analysis on it. Ken Venturi did such a thing in golf.

I imagine they would be more similar to each other at impact position with the cueball than most people think. If I had to guess, at impact I think you would see a perpendicular forearm, the cue traveling on a plane slanted downward and actually on a dipping arc, an elbow within an inch or so of the warm up stroking position. I think in some of them you would see a lifting of the head and shoulders as the cue passes under them on follow through and on most of them the elbow dropping on the follow through after impact.

Chris

randyg
04-21-2005, 05:06 PM
Bob Jewett: A no pause for whom????????Spf-randyg

randyg
04-21-2005, 05:14 PM
Hi Dick: Had the utmost pleasure of playing Mr. Mosconi twice. Same result both times. First time I ran 99 on him and lost 150-99, what's new.

I remember his hand position well. He played about 5 inches behind the balance point which was very close to Perp for him. Seemed to never move the cueball over a foot. You know how the old saying goes. "He never shot a tough shot".....Thanks for the memories......SPF-randyg

Bob_Jewett
04-21-2005, 05:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Bob Jewett: A no pause for whom????????Spf-randyg <hr /></blockquote>
Randy, please draw out the position, speed and acceleration of the stick for shots that have a pause at the back of the shot and those that have no pause. I think then you will see what I mean. For reference, check out your copy of the June 1999 issue of Billiards Digest, which has an example of a stroke without a pause.

Stretch
04-21-2005, 05:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Patrick...your answer is right on.
I just happened to watch 'The Hustler" last nite...a friend loaned me his copy....and noticed both "Fats" and "Fast" with
an elbow drop, and if it's good enough for them....it's good enough for me.
Trying NOT to have a slight drop, at the end caused me to miscue on hard draw shots, I believe.
By the way, i was the "one" that wrote ".....fiasco" Do you know how hard it is to rhyme with fiasco? I couldn't pass it up <hr /></blockquote>

I missed it. Did you use "tabasco"? St.

Fred Agnir
04-21-2005, 06:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Scott,Dr.Dave,Fran and everyone else I want to add my two cents. I don't know anyone on the board who has played Willie Mosconi besides me and his elbow was tucked behind his back and he held the cue at the beginning of the wrap then he slipped stroked on the final delivery. His cue never formed the 90* angle of todays players. #### <hr /></blockquote>Good point Dick. This is, I believe, related. The party line always says that the side-armers shoot that way because they started at a young age. Yet I know player who started as teens that naturally fell intto that style.

IMO, there is a power stroke that can be achieved by many by tucking the elbow, therefore creating a pseudo sidearm stroke. It's just something to think about.

Fred

wolfdancer
04-21-2005, 07:25 PM
I'm getting Deemantia from reading this thread

wolfdancer
04-21-2005, 07:30 PM
It's time to test the opposing theories out.
Bayes' Theorem provides a way to apply quantitative reasoning to what we normally think of as "the scientific method". When several alternative hypotheses are competing for our belief, we test them by deducing consequences of each one, then conducting experimental tests to observe whether or not those consequences actually occur. If an hypothesis predicts that something should occur, and that thing does occur, it strengthens our belief in the truthfulness of the hypothesis. Conversely, an observation that contradicts the prediction would weaken (or destroy) our confidence in the hypothesis.
Or we could just use an heuristic approach........
Thank God for google....I can write something down, of which I have no idea what it means....and people will think...

Vagabond
04-21-2005, 07:42 PM
Yesterday I was in Austin,Tx.I practiced with a Pro player who also gives lessons in pool.I mentioned to this pro about the debate going on here about elbow drop.With out any reservation this pro agrees with u 100%.You go Girl...
cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Vagabond
04-21-2005, 07:49 PM
Tap,Tap,Tap. u go girl...
Vagabond

Qtec
04-22-2005, 10:15 PM
Another point.

[ QUOTE ]
My instructor told me that my elbow was dropping a few inches(other times even more, even on my good shots) and that we need to eliminate elbow drop altogether. <font color="blue">This seems to indicate that this instructor is against any elbow drop whatsoever. </font color> He suggested a shorter bridge 8-9" and a shorter 4inch follow through <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> These are 2 methods that can be used to eliminate elbow drop after contact! </font color>

Qtec

CarolNYC
04-23-2005, 02:33 AM
Fran,
Nothing for nothing,BUT, someone sent me a tape of you playing in the semi-finals against Susan Bishop in 1988 at the Resorts and your elbow didnt drop /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif-Oh, you won the match to go on and play Jean! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Carol

nhp
04-23-2005, 03:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> I think before everyone argues about this, both sides should be clear on the definition of elbow drop. Is it slightly dropping your elbow, even an inch, or is it dropping it all the way down to the table? <hr /></blockquote>I think most of us are talking about a few inches, maybe 5" max.

But the very heavy monster draw shots (Nevel, Deuel, etc.), those guys drop it a foot or more.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Thats what I thought from the beginning. I used to think my elbow didn't drop, until I looked in the mirror and noticed that for every shot it dropped a couple of inches. It's just become a natural part of my mechanics so I haven't bothered to change it. When I try to prevent my elbow from dipping completely, it causes me to tighten up, and I can't follow thru enough, and it also prevents me from having a smooth follow thru. I personally think that whatever comes naturally to a player, and they play good with whatever style they use, then nothing should be corrected, UNLESS they try something different and they play alot better because of it. But in most cases, changing from something natural to something that does not feel natural can be negative, IMO.

Fran Crimi
04-23-2005, 07:05 AM
Yup. The pockets were buckets back then, too. It was fun, though. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm trained to not drop my elbow. Then I started practicing with Gene Nagy a few years ago. Remember him? The 400 ball runner? He was helping me with some shots I always had trouble with and I noticed his natural elbow drop. I started experimenting with it and now do it on shots where it's helpful to me.

That's what this thread is all about, Carol. It's about not ruling out the elbow drop altogether. And now if I have a student who has a natural elbow drop with good timing, I'm not so quick to change that.

Maybe I wouldn't have jammed that one ball against Jean in the finals if I'd known then what I know now. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif




<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Fran,
Nothing for nothing,BUT, someone sent me a tape of you playing in the semi-finals against Susan Bishop in 1988 at the Resorts and your elbow didnt drop /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif-Oh, you won the match to go on and play Jean! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Carol
<hr /></blockquote>

Voodoo Daddy
04-23-2005, 07:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Then I started practicing with Gene Nagy a few years ago. Remember him? The 400 ball runner? He was helping me with some shots I always had trouble with and I noticed his natural elbow drop. I started experimenting with it and now do it on shots where it's helpful to me. <hr /></blockquote>

The moral to all this is that Gene didnt fake a stroke during your training seesions, allowing to see that it DOES work and let you as a player try it to see if it fit your game. Teaching it and using it as an example of success is two very different but quite the same things...IMO

Voodoo~~~doesnt know if he drops anything but the balls

Barbara
04-23-2005, 07:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Fran,
Nothing for nothing,BUT, someone sent me a tape of you playing in the semi-finals against Susan Bishop in 1988 at the Resorts and your elbow didnt drop /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif-Oh, you won the match to go on and play Jean! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Carol
<hr /></blockquote>

OMG! I've got to see this! Can you burn that onto a cd? Then we can all watch that at the next JPNEWT event on my laptop!

Barbara

CarolNYC
04-24-2005, 02:08 AM
Hey Barb,
[ QUOTE ]
Can you burn that onto a cd? <hr /></blockquote>
No, I dont kow how /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ QUOTE ]
we can all watch that at the next JPNEWT event on my laptop!
<hr /></blockquote>
We can't sit around and watch a video-we have to PLAY POOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Talk to ya later!
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CarolNYC
04-24-2005, 02:10 AM
Hey Fran,
Yep, I remeber Gene-give him my regards! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I wouldn't have jammed that one ball against Jean <hr /></blockquote>
You DROPPED your elbow! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Vagabond
04-24-2005, 05:59 AM
``you droped the elbow``

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Cheers
Vagabond

randyg
04-24-2005, 07:31 AM
Deeman2: Would that be Carl McClendon?????SPF-randyg

recoveryjones
04-25-2005, 07:11 PM
My computer was down for five days,so I just caught up on reading all the posts today.

Thanks to everyone who posted on elbow drops as their certainly was some intresting insights.This past week I spent time watching my WPC 2003 tapes and was in particuliar watching for elbow drop.

In my observations, I noticed that the overwhelming majority of professional pool players seem to incorporate elbow drop on at least some shots.Included in this list of players are Reyes, Bustamante,Strickland ,Deuel,Ortmann, Soquet,Archer Vandenburg,Chao,Engert,etc,etc,etc and yes even Steve davis.
Steve's elbow only seems to drop a few inches which seems to be the character of snooker players and snooker strokes.

Having watched a lot of snooker and a lot of pool latley, I've come to the conclusion ,never,ever, ever,never, to compare snooker to pool again.They are simply different games, without a doubt.

I used to watch the side to side and pump handle up and down warmup strokes of various pool players, as a opposed to the back and forth level piston warmups of snooker players, and think my God some of those pool players are sure lacking in fundamentals.Never again will I judge a pool players stroke, to a snooker style stroke.Pool has some amazingly talented players that have some warmup strokes that used to bewilder me, however, their final strokes come through straight, accurate and the results speak for themself.

Having said all of this, I'm still going to try to incorporate SPFF and no elbow drop into my own game (at least for a little while) and be open-minded enough to see if it makes me more consistent.I believe it probably has it's benefits.I'm looking for more consistent speed control and potting accuracy (who isn't ..LOL) and I will be open-minded enough to see if dedication to the above, brings it that way.

From my observations( pool pro's) seem to incorporate a healthy mix of no drop, to drop in certains situations such as power shots and long draw shots etc.They all use elbow drop on the break shot, however, for me the break shot is exempt from the elbow drop catergory because many other rules are broke like body lift, extreme cue bend on the follow through or having the cue completley leave the bridge and flail skyward on the follow through. The break is defintley a speciltly shot.RJ

....... a non spinning cue ball that stops dead in it's tracks on a long straight in,succesfully potted stun shot, is well struck shot, elbow drop or no elbow drop. JMO

DickLeonard
04-26-2005, 06:09 AM
Dr.Dave the person I learned from played his stroke like a violin. A couple of long strokes and a couple of short fiddling strokes, there was never any stopping of the cue.
He felt the stroke was like walking the tight rope if you stopped you fell off the rope and on his final delivery his cue was guided by the heel of his palm. So he dropped his elbow,more on long shots than short shots.

In his day Mosconi refused to play him a Match on a 4 1/2 x 9 he would only play him on a 5x10. He had run a 100 or better in every exhibition match at Julians for 6 weeks running. His 5ft 3 size didn't mix well with the 5x10 table.
####

DickLeonard
04-26-2005, 06:15 AM
Randy I had him 138 to 31 and he ran 169 and out and stopped he had to be in Philly in the am so he didn't continue with his run.

The one thing I learned at dinner with him was he was paranoid,he thought everyone was out to get him and they were.####

Gayle in MD
04-26-2005, 07:42 AM
Sorry Rod, I have to disagree with you on that. Although I don't want to highjack this thread, it's way too interesting, I must correct you on this. I know of no one who posts here about politics, or anything else, who fits that description. I've been posting here for years, and I've never hated, or felt hated by anyone, just because of a difference of opinion. Surely, we're all adult enough here not to hold grudges over such things!

Nuff said!

Gayle in Md.

randyg
04-26-2005, 03:47 PM
DICK: Yes, I've had several lunches with Willie and I totally agree. Paranoid. That's what helped him be a champion.

He said to me one day after a great exhibition; "Son, if I get sick, who could take MY place." Before I could answer, he went on to tell me how good he really was. I think he was always looking over his shoulder. To me, Willie was the greatest at that time.....SPF-randyg

recoveryjones
04-27-2005, 07:41 PM
I finally found a pool playing pro who does SPFF and no elbow drop(pretty much) to perfection.His name is Jeff Carter (a house pro ,Chicago Billiards Cafe) from Chicago.

I watched a match(Sands Regency 1995) between him and Mike Massey which was an accustats player review match.In this match Jeff Carter wins the lag and proceeds to break and run 5 racks in a row.In this particlar tape the cameraman usually showed the back cueing arm on almost every shot.

Jeff would do sets and often two or three re-sets and pauses before pulling the trigger.Other than the break,not once did I see him drop his elbow and even on the break he doesn't drop it much.A few shots were power shots and he didn't drop his elbow on those shots either.If the BCA instructors wanted a good sample pro to show what they are trying to teach, Joe(and the afformentioned tape) would be a great example.The way he ran off those five racks proved to me that you can get anywhere on the table without elbow drop.

Does all this mean I'm a converted born-again non elbow dropping SPFF devotee.No, not nessecarily so because I'd love to be able to shoot like Reyes,Bustamante,Strickland, Soquet, Archer etc etc and the rest of the seculiar heathanistic elbow dropping sinners /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It does prove to me(in watching Jeff Carter) that Scott Lee, Randy G,Cane,Steve and the rest of the SPFF,non elbow dropping evangilists do have some good merit in what they are trying to teach.Yes it's true folks. you don't have to drop your elbow to run 5 racks in a row, Jeff C proved it.

In open-mindedness I'm going to continue to try and work on ingraining SPFF and no elbow drop(or as little as possible) into my shooting style at least for a season.I'm kinda stuck at being an average A level player so I want to see if this takes me to the promised land(of consistency) because being stuck on the good ole plataeu isn't satisfactory to me anymore.I'll keep you posted. RJ

ps. Does anyone know Jeff Carter and what he's up to in the world of pool today? Does he teach?

.......RJ still thinks that a healthy mix of no elbow drop, mixed in with occasional elbow drop for certain shots is probably the best solution.

Fran Crimi
04-27-2005, 09:36 PM
RJ, you sound a little conflicted. I don't know any pro who hasn't been where you are at some point in their career.

Think about this for a minute: Back when all those pros you mentioned were developing their games, there were no message boards, no AccuStat tapes, no ESPN, no organized pool lessons. They just played. They talked to each other about pool, watched live matches, and then played some more.

All these new ways we have to learn about pool today can be both a help and a hinderance at the same time. Yes, they can help you understand things quicker, save some trial and error time, give you food for thought about things you didn't realize.

But never let any of these things replace practice and experimentation on your own. Use them all to your benefit but keep them in their proper place. It's YOUR game, and in the end, you have to come to terms with it, all by yourself on a pool table, just like Archer did, and Reyes did and Bustamante did and Carter did.

Fran

JimS
04-28-2005, 04:44 AM
It seems self-evident that the fewer moving body parts the better.

Jeff is in Wisconsin. As far as I know he is not teaching. He's playing a little, at least, as I saw his name in the money at the Reno Open a few weeks back.

He had very pure mechanics. He and Mark Wilson had some of the same influences and both were taught some stuff by Sailor in Racine...who is still teaching at almost 80 yrs young. Still makes cues too. Goes to the shop at 2 pm and leaves at midnight. A nightime kinda guy /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cane
04-28-2005, 06:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> &lt;snip&gt; Think about this for a minute: Back when all those pros you mentioned were developing their games, there were no message boards, no AccuStat tapes, no ESPN, no organized pool lessons. They just played. They talked to each other about pool, watched live matches, and then played some more.
&lt;snip&gt;
But never let any of these things replace practice and experimentation on your own. Use them all to your benefit but keep them in their proper place. It's YOUR game, and in the end, you have to come to terms with it, all by yourself on a pool table, just like Archer did, and Reyes did and Bustamante did and Carter did.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Very well said, Fran. Pool players today have the advantage of having qualified instructors in nearly every nook and cranny of the country, but all instructors can do is give you the tools. I like the way RandyG puts it... "There is not magic wand, only a magic WANT." An instructor can give a player the tools to improve, but it's still up to the player to get to a table and practice, practice, practice. Not just bang balls around, but a good organized "Perfect Practice".

Later,
Bob

DickLeonard
04-28-2005, 06:57 AM
JimS ask the Sailor if he remembers Joe Canton,Watervliet,Ny
Thanks ####

Fred Agnir
04-28-2005, 08:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> It seems self-evident that the fewer moving body parts the better.
<hr /></blockquote>I think I gave plenty of suggestions as to why this doesn't always hold true.

Lay the cuestick on the table and move it with your pinky and only your pinky. That would be the smallest and least moving part (of your hand). There are obvious reasons why this won't work. You need to have more strength than your pinky to do the work. To think that less moving parts is better is, IMO, pretty short-sighted. You need to add more body parts until you balance effort and consistency. For the vast majority of players (pro and amateur), that includes the upper arm, shoulder and consequently the elbow for some shots.


Fred

silverbullet
04-28-2005, 12:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> OK Rod, I get the hint. LOL

I think it's unnecessary to drop your elbow on certain shots and helpful to drop it on certain shots.

There...short and sweet.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I used to worry a lot about dropping my elbow, and in fact was striking about 1/2 tip below where I aimed, etc. When I stopped worrying about the elbow drop, went to striking straight thru the cb also rather than putting the cue on the cloth, at the 'freeze', things got a lot more natural. It seems it is natural to drop the elbow a bit on certain shots, a bit more when hitting hard is required, but since I just 'swing the cue', follow freeze, don't think about it.

Laura

Fran Crimi
04-28-2005, 03:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr>
Not just bang balls around, but a good organized "Perfect Practice".

Later,
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Bob,

Yup. Do you guys do what we do here in NY, like smack them in the back of the head and say, "Do it again, moron." /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran ~~~ touching the flat spot in back of my head

recoveryjones
04-28-2005, 06:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> RJ, you sound a little conflicted. I don't know any pro who hasn't been where you are at some point in their career.

Thanks Fran for your concern and observation,well analyzed and much appreciated.Too bad your not in Vancouver because I'd book you for some lessons /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I practice my pool several hours at least a few times a week. I've improved so much,however,my perfectionism won'tlet me find a stroke and stick with it.I've tried low on the cue and high, long bridge short bridge, Pause no pause,freeze no freeze,etc etc etc. I've been tweaking my stroke off and on for a year now.I've done all the evaluating and revaluating that Archer, Reyes Carter and the rest of them have done.

My conflict is in finding a healthy balance between mechanics and feel.With feel I shoot my very best,however, within that feel sloopiness occurs and a headlift or some other flaw will kill a run.Other times I go into deadstroke and can't miss anything.

I wan't to learn mechanics to the point were I don't have to think about them and then eventually feel with in the parameters of those mechanics. My expermenting on my own is over, I need some help with an instructor. Take care, RJ

Fran Crimi
04-28-2005, 08:07 PM
Wow. It sounded like me you were talking about for a minute there. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I can totally relate to what you're saying. I remember a time when I'd walk into any regional event and wonder who was coming in 2nd, because I was definitely coming in first. And I did, a lot. And I didn't remember anything that happened from the first shot I shot to the last shot of the tournament. It was all feel. I couldn't tell you what my stance looked like, or what my arm was doing or anything else like that.

But I was falling short in certain areas, missing the easy shot here and there, costing myself a critical match here and there. So I turned to mechanics. I had never been anything but a feel player and this mechanics stuff was a culture shock for me.

I learned a whole lot by breaking things down, but I never quite got back the confidence I had when I didn't think about anything but putting the ball in the hole and getting the cue ball to go where I wanted it to go.

I'm now retraining myself to feel the game again and (pardon the pun) it sure feels good! Plus I have the added benefit of turning to mechanics when I start to lose my feel.

If I were you, I'd seek out the pros and talk to them. Find out what their mix of feel and mechanics is. I've found that most of them play by feel and turn to mechanics when the pressure is on, like when they feel a choke coming on. The key is to recognize when it's coming on so you can make the adjustment in the middle of a match.

When you play by feel, it's a total reflection of who you are. My guess is that's probably when you'll do your best work and you can use the mechanics to get you out of trouble.

Fran

Barbara
04-28-2005, 08:35 PM
So Fran,

How's your Golf game going?

Barbara~~~ducking the shot and remembering Fran's article on that subject...

JimS
04-29-2005, 04:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> It seems self-evident that the fewer moving body parts the better.
<hr /></blockquote>I think I gave plenty of suggestions as to why this doesn't always hold true.

Lay the cuestick on the table and move it with your pinky and only your pinky. That would be the smallest and least moving part (of your hand).

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I didn't read your suggestions Fred but the analogy you used to disprove my statement is ridiculous.

Of course there are shots where various parts of the body might be moved and we'll all, in our individual ways, want to move away from the "best" fundamentals in order to perform certain shots but... the fewer moving parts the better to perform with consistent precision.

Fred Agnir
04-29-2005, 07:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> It seems self-evident that the fewer moving body parts the better.
<hr /></blockquote>I think I gave plenty of suggestions as to why this doesn't always hold true.

Lay the cuestick on the table and move it with your pinky and only your pinky. That would be the smallest and least moving part (of your hand).

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I didn't read your suggestions Fred but the analogy you used to disprove my statement is ridiculous.
<hr /></blockquote>Of course it's ridiculous. It's meant to ridicule the whole "less moving parts" idea since that idea is at it's simplest very ridiculous. There's no merit to the saying without further and further caveats.

The idea of "best fundamentals" isn't a one size fits all. Though the non-elbow drop stroke is great and possibly best for a number of shots, the "best fundamental" for other shots may include an elbow drop.

Anyone who shoots free throws understands this. If you're strong enough, you can get very consistent at using a wrist flip. But check out the very best free throw shooters. They marry every part of their body in a very coordinated and timed motion to put the least effort. It's the marrying of the body parts that makes it an athletic endeavor. Same holds true for pool. It's the athletes that are able to marry the motions that excel at the game. Less moving parts is not a goal for any athletic endeavor, but rather the goal is to coordinate the motions to produce the most consistency with the least effort.

Fred

Fran Crimi
04-29-2005, 07:18 AM
Grrrrr...your memory is way too good, girl.

I'll have you know that I now have in my posession a corrective driver so I don't have to stand crooked anymore to hit the ball straight.



<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> So Fran,

How's your Golf game going?

Barbara~~~ducking the shot and remembering Fran's article on that subject... <hr /></blockquote>

JimS
04-29-2005, 07:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> It seems self-evident that the fewer moving body parts the better.
<hr /></blockquote>I think I gave plenty of suggestions as to why this doesn't always hold true.

Lay the cuestick on the table and move it with your pinky and only your pinky. That would be the smallest and least moving part (of your hand).

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I didn't read your suggestions Fred but the analogy you used to disprove my statement is ridiculous.
<hr /></blockquote>Of course it's ridiculous. It's meant to ridicule the whole "less moving parts" idea since that idea is at it's simplest very ridiculous. There's no merit to the saying without further and further caveats.

The idea of "best fundamentals" isn't a one size fits all. Though the non-elbow drop stroke is great and possibly best for a number of shots, the "best fundamental" for other shots may include an elbow drop.

Anyone who shoots free throws understands this. If you're strong enough, you can get very consistent at using a wrist flip. But check out the very best free throw shooters. They marry every part of their body in a very coordinated and timed motion to put the least effort. It's the marrying of the body parts that makes it an athletic endeavor. Same holds true for pool. It's the athletes that are able to marry the motions that excel at the game. Less moving parts is not a goal for any athletic endeavor, but rather the goal is to coordinate the motions to produce the most consistency with the least effort.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

The free throw analogy is also ridiculous and doesn't apply.

The fewer moving parts involved in a precision task the less room for error. The more parts involved the more chance for error and the more skill needed to be precise.

SpiderMan
04-29-2005, 08:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> It seems self-evident that the fewer moving body parts the better.
<hr /></blockquote>I think I gave plenty of suggestions as to why this doesn't always hold true.

Lay the cuestick on the table and move it with your pinky and only your pinky. That would be the smallest and least moving part (of your hand).

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I didn't read your suggestions Fred but the analogy you used to disprove my statement is ridiculous.
<hr /></blockquote>Of course it's ridiculous. It's meant to ridicule the whole "less moving parts" idea since that idea is at it's simplest very ridiculous. There's no merit to the saying without further and further caveats.

The idea of "best fundamentals" isn't a one size fits all. Though the non-elbow drop stroke is great and possibly best for a number of shots, the "best fundamental" for other shots may include an elbow drop.

Anyone who shoots free throws understands this. If you're strong enough, you can get very consistent at using a wrist flip. But check out the very best free throw shooters. They marry every part of their body in a very coordinated and timed motion to put the least effort. It's the marrying of the body parts that makes it an athletic endeavor. Same holds true for pool. It's the athletes that are able to marry the motions that excel at the game. Less moving parts is not a goal for any athletic endeavor, but rather the goal is to coordinate the motions to produce the most consistency with the least effort.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

The free throw analogy is also ridiculous and doesn't apply.

The fewer moving parts involved in a precision task the less room for error. The more parts involved the more chance for error and the more skill needed to be precise. <hr /></blockquote>
The free throw was a pretty good analogy, and made a lot of sense. Freeze your body and flip the ball by moving only the hands and forearms, or smoothly accelerate using more muscles.

Coordinating more motions increases the opportunity for variance, and therefore requires more skill in execution. But, given sufficient control, this variance may be insignificant next to the improvement in results. More response with less effort, for those with the skills to coordinate the motions.

That should be a hint as to why the majority of pros incorporate the more complex motion - they have the ability to coordinate and control that motion. Well-coached amateurs accept the compromise of limiting their variables; top pros have transcended that requirement.

Striving for "motionless elbow" on all shots may be one way to improve consistency for the majority of us lacking pro-level abilities, but it is still a limiting approach.

Sandy Koufax might have improved his aim if he were trained to stand motionless except for his arm. He would probably have started fads as he led his high-school team to victory, but would he ever win a pro game?

SpiderMan

randyg
04-29-2005, 12:39 PM
Once again fellow posters: Show me the shot that CAN'T be made with-out dropping your elbow! Thanks....SPF-randyg

SpiderMan
04-29-2005, 01:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Once again fellow posters: Show me the shot that CAN'T be made with-out dropping your elbow! Thanks....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Randy, that challenge is neither relevant nor meaningful, in the context of arguing whether elbow movement is always detrimental. Show me the shot that CAN'T be made with a screw-in tip.

SpiderMan

pooltchr
04-29-2005, 01:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> the goal is to coordinate the motions to produce the most consistency with the least effort.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Most considtency with the least effort....wouldn't that mean using the fewest moving parts required to get the job done???
There is a reason I don't use my whole arm to sign my name as well....it isn't needed, and it becomes much more difficult to move with precision.
Steve

SPetty
04-29-2005, 02:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> the goal is to coordinate the motions to produce the most consistency with the least effort.<hr /></blockquote>Most consistency with the least effort....wouldn't that mean using the fewest moving parts required to get the job done???<hr /></blockquote>Not always, and that seems to be the crux of this issue. The only other analogy I could come up with was something like pitching horseshoes or bowling.

To pitch a horseshoe or throw a bowling ball, you could stand still and, moving only your straight arm at the shoulder joint, pitch that shoe or throw that ball. That seems like using the fewest moving parts required to get the job done, but it also seems a bit more difficult than necessary.

If I could use my legs and my back and my arm (and my other arm for balance) all in good coordination with each other to launch the horseshoe or bowling ball, the total coordinated action would require much less effort even though the end result is the same.

So the point isn't that you must use your legs and back and arm to pitch a horseshoe or throw a bowling ball, but that it is a bit easier and requires less effort than simply standing still and moving only your straight arm at the shoulder joint.

tateuts
04-29-2005, 02:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Once again fellow posters: Show me the shot that CAN'T be made with-out dropping your elbow! Thanks....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe a 30 mph break shot?

Fred Agnir
04-29-2005, 03:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> the goal is to coordinate the motions to produce the most consistency with the least effort.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Most considtency with the least effort....wouldn't that mean using the fewest moving parts required to get the job done???<hr /></blockquote> No. Sharing the load/work over several muscles makes for less effort rather than taxing one or a few muscles.

Fred

Tom_In_Cincy
04-29-2005, 04:17 PM
Randy,
I have read the 'instructor' debate on the 'elbow drop' for the last 9 days.

None of the instructors have presented any evidence that their way is the ONLY way, only that its an alternative.
I've always been very open minded about such subjects and try to learn and apply to my own benefit. Sometimes the additon is positive, sometimes it just doesn't work for me.

I have been a long time observer of the pros with relation to 'elbow drop' and 'look at the cue ball or object ball LAST?' questions. I've been a little anal with these two subjects in the past.

Jeff Carter was mentioned, and I have to admit, that was a surprize for me.. he was the first I had noticed that didn't drop his elbow even a quarter of an inch. The next time I witnessed a PRO without an elbow drop was Max Eberly. Both players have a SPFF fundamental that is ROCK solid.

As far as the LAST look... its been about 50-50 with the last look being dominate for the OB for long shots.

But, now I see lots of players in the tournaments that I run that ALL drop their elbow. No exceptions. And there are some pretty good players in these tournaments.

I find that most playes that have a head position about a foot above their cue, are most likely to have an 'elbow drop' but, only after contact.

The players that have their chins just above the cue are the least likely.

I am curious; Do you teach your students that 'elbow' drop is 'bad form'?
Is there more than one form other than the traditional BCA certified instructor form? What about snooker style forms? Do you teach that form as a 'standard'?

Just really curious as to why you and your fabulous crew of instructors are so adamently against this elbow drop thing.

pooltchr
04-29-2005, 06:18 PM
Spetty,
I agree with your observations. The difference seems to be that you are throwing a metal horseshoe 50 feet through the air or a 12 pound bowling ball about the same distance. In pool, we are only moving a 19 ounce stick about 12 inches. This requires much less energy, and therefore, doesn't need your upper arm, legs or anything else. I go back to writing. The pen is much lighter than a cue stick, and requires less energy to direct it accurately which is why most of us use only our fingers and wrist to write. We use that which is necessary to get the job done. In the case of a pool cue, the motion of the forearm provides sufficient energy to do it.

The other point that hasn't been mentioned here is that our goal is to move the cue stick straight forward. The range of motion for your arm is practically unlimited if you allow your shoulder to be in motion. If all the motion is at the elbow, it only opens and closes in one direction. Therefore, if your alignment is correct at the set position, and the only motion is at the elbow, the cue will travel straight. If you allow the shoulder to get involved, the opportunity to get off line is greatly increased.

That's the reason we teach students to try to reduce or eliminate elbow drop. If you drop your elbow, it's coming from movement at the shoulder. The SPFF stroke is the simplest way to develop a consistant, repeatable straight delivery of the cue stick.

Dropping your elbow does not mean you aren't stroking straight...it just increases the odds that you can get off line. If I don't drop my elbow, and keep my shoulder out of the equation, the cue can only travel in one direction.

Steve

randyg
04-29-2005, 07:03 PM
Tom_in_Cincy: Hi Tom. Most of the posters missed my post on the three types of "elbow drop". They did not respond to it at all. I really have not debated for or against, I'm just reading and listening to the posters.

Now to your questions:

"I am curious; Do you teach your students that 'elbow' drop is 'bad form'?"

YES! If the elbow drops before or during contact with the cue-ball. Any drop after that is irrelevant to the cue-ball.


"Is there more than one form other than the traditional BCA certified instructor form? What about snooker style forms?"


To my knowledge there is no "traditional" or standard BCA form. Each BCA Instructor has their own guidelines. Nothing wrong with the snooker style for snooker.


"Do you teach that form as a 'standard'? "

We teach SET-PAUSE-FINISH &amp; FREEZE as our standard practice routines.

Tom, we deal with about 500 students a year. Most all of them are way above average pool players trying to improve. I don't believe that any of them have "pro" aspirations. They are just trying to survive in their own league and tournament environment. Therefore the cleaner, crisper, smoother we can get their mechanics the better they can learn.

Tom, it's real funny on this end of how things work. The amateur students need better mechanics to preform. The pros come in when their mechanic go haywire. They both attend the same class. We always find that amazing.

We can have all the knowledge in the world. If that knowledge dosen't have a very strong foundation (like passing through the cueball with a repeatable and dependable stroke)then that knowledge is usless......Thanks Tom...SPF-randyg

recoveryjones
04-29-2005, 07:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Spetty,
I agree with your observations. The difference seems to be that you are throwing a metal horseshoe 50 feet through the air or a 12 pound bowling ball about the same distance. In pool, we are only moving a 19 ounce stick about 12 inches. This requires much less energy, and therefore, doesn't need your upper arm, legs or anything else. I go back to writing. The pen is much lighter than a cue stick, and requires less energy to direct it accurately which is why most of us use only our fingers and wrist to write. We use that which is necessary to get the job done. In the case of a pool cue, the motion of the forearm provides sufficient energy to do it.

The other point that hasn't been mentioned here is that our goal is to move the cue stick straight forward. The range of motion for your arm is practically unlimited if you allow your shoulder to be in motion. If all the motion is at the elbow, it only opens and closes in one direction. Therefore, if your alignment is correct at the set position, and the only motion is at the elbow, the cue will travel straight. If you allow the shoulder to get involved, the opportunity to get off line is greatly increased.

That's the reason we teach students to try to reduce or eliminate elbow drop. If you drop your elbow, it's coming from movement at the shoulder. The SPFF stroke is the simplest way to develop a consistant, repeatable straight delivery of the cue stick.

Dropping your elbow does not mean you aren't stroking straight...it just increases the odds that you can get off line. If I don't drop my elbow, and keep my shoulder out of the equation, the cue can only travel in one direction.

Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Good reply Steve. I agree with you 100% that bowling and horseshoes can't be compared to moving a 19 ounce cue stick 12 inches.Bowling and horeshoes can't be played anything but horribly without moving other body parts and pool can. End of story.

I've been watching players for elbow drop almost religiously lately.Last night at a local tournament two of our A+ players both used almost no elbow drop. One of them won the tournament and the other beat me 3-1 and ran out his racks with no problem getting around the table quite easily,without dropping the elbow.

I practised today for six hrs and devoted the whole practice to SPFF with great emphasis on the freeze and try my best to keep the elbow up.I was very very happy with the way the practice went and I'm already starting to see some noticable improvement.

I think that students learning this method from scratch as taught by the BCA instructors could turn into good pool players.It's a good strong foundational way to deliver a cue straight in a repeatable,consistent fashion for sure.

For those great players(Strickland,Archer,Reyes Bustamante etc etc) who have incorporated elbow drop succesfully, I say stick with it because YOUR game proves it works.For all those recreational players who have plateaued and for all the beginners starting out I reccommend to go see an instructor and give this stuff a whirl.If your game just isn't getting any better, what have you got to lose.I think the best person to teach would be someone who has never picked up a cue before and ingrained bad habits as change isn't easy.

In summary it's been proved that pool can be played successfully with or without elbow drop and no-one can argue that.I just think that it would be a good method to learn and from what I can see it would probably do those who don't shoot to well and beginners a lot of good. RJ

Tom_In_Cincy
04-29-2005, 07:37 PM
Thanks Randy.. I really appreciate your reply and additional comments.

I think there has been too much fuss over the 'elbow drop'. If it is prior to or while hitting the cue ball, I think everyone would agree this is a bad thing.
If it is after the hit, it doesn't matter.

Fran Crimi
04-29-2005, 08:19 PM
Hi Tom,

I enjoy reading your posts and your logical approach to figuring things out. I try to be that way too. But every so often, we come across something that doesn't seem to immediately make sense, yet on the table, it works. Do we discount it because we don't totally understand it? Or do we say, well, okay then...I don't know why but there may be something there that merits looking into.

That's what happened to me. I can't tell you why, but I know what I see and what I feel when I shoot the big shots, and there's something there.

Why not give it a shot and play around with it? Do it a little, do it a lot, hard, soft...see what happens. I will warn you, though, if you're used to keeping your elbow still like I was, it will take you out of your comfort zone and you'll feel awkward for awhile. Don't give up and I think you may be pleasantly surprised.

Just an idea. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fran

Tom_In_Cincy
04-29-2005, 09:19 PM
Thanks Fran,
I usually do things methodically, not always doing them correctly, but at my own pace.

My pool experiences started in the 60s with very few books, no videos, no instructors, no internet and all the good pool players only shared ash trays.

My practice routines always include a session of NEW things I've picked up watching others (something I developed in the 60s and 70s.) and experimenting.

My favorite quote "I would rather be uncomfortable and making shots, than comfortable and missing"

Cueless Joey
04-29-2005, 11:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The next time I witnessed a PRO without an elbow drop was Max Eberly. <hr /></blockquote>
Tom, I saw Max last week.
I thought I saw him drop his elbow on a soft shot even.

Cane
04-30-2005, 07:18 AM
OK, Quick story (yeah, you guys know better than that by now, I've never told a quick story in my LIFE!!!).

Last night, one of my friends and constant students came over to my house to play pool. No lessons, no instruction, he just wanted to play pool. This guy, Darin is probably a 7 on a 10 scale... Six months ago in local 3 to 10 rated rated tournaments they were rating him a four... he listens well! We played on my 44X88 with the now unshimmed but still pro cut pockets.
Game: 9-ball
Race: 20 ahead, Winner Breaks, I give him 7 on the wire after listening to much whining and him wanting the break and the wild 7 &amp; 8 (I wouldn't give that spot to a bar banger).
Stakes: Pizza... a large pizza of the winners choice.

Well, I start out at about 5pm like a barn burner. I broke and ran the first three racks. Until about 7pm or so I was pocketing shots like a wild man, showing off, playing 3 rail position when I could have played an easy draw or a stop shot, then I started falling off. My wheels just fell off and couldn't figure out what was wrong. I stopped the showing off crap and just went back to simple position play, but he was starting to play me pretty even then. I didn't like it at all!!! Well, at one point I missed an easy 8, 8-ball 5 feet away from the CB, fairly straight in, just a stop shot to get on the 9. Needless to say, I was a little frustrated with myself and I turned to Darin and said "Merry F*#%$@ing Christmas... I should NEVER miss that shot!"

He said... "Chased it... you started dropping your elbow about 30 minutes ago".

Me: "Why didn't you tell me?"

Darin: "Hell, you were 15 ahead already, I wanted to win"

Well, after that I conciously pinned my elbow and in another 20 minutes, we ordered a large Pepperoni Pizza, my favorite and it keeps Rolaids in business.

What I'm saying is that for me, when I get tired, I start dropping my elbow. Now, last night, I was apparently dropping it BEFORE I got the tip to the CB, so I started missing shots. When he pointed it out to me, I stopped it and took off the rest of the 20 ahead, shooting almost as strong as I did when we started the set.

My point here is this. FOR ME, the pinned elbow is the key. Once I get that puppy pinned, I don't believe there is a shot on the table I can't make, and again FOR ME, I don't think that there's a shot on the table that requires my elbow to drop to execute it properly for my style and my stance. Well, except my break shot... I look like I'm having a severe neurological dysfunction when I break...

My style, my opinion, my game. But the Pizza was damn good!!!

Later,
Bob

PS: Wouldn't play RandyG 20 ahead to save my life! Well, maybe for dinner, but not for anything more than that!!! BTW Randy, Jerry told me you got another big feather in your cap a week or so ago in Dallas????? Share that with us???

Fred Agnir
04-30-2005, 07:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> I go back to writing. The pen is much lighter than a cue stick, and requires less energy to direct it accurately which is why most of us use only our fingers and wrist to write. We use that which is necessary to get the job done. <hr /></blockquote>I hope that this will at least give you more to think about Steve. I have never met a penmanship teacher that didn't stress that the arm must move in conjunction with the wrist.

Here's one site:

http://www.2020site.org/writing/penmanship.html

"Penmanship: the Movements.
IN writing, three MOVEMENTS are necessary, viz: FINGER movement, MUSCULAR or FORE-ARM movement, and OFF HAND or WHOLE ARM movement."

Fred &lt;~~~ all physical endeavors are essentially the same

Fred Agnir
04-30-2005, 07:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>

The players that have their chins just above the cue are the least likely.

I am curious; Do you teach your students that 'elbow' drop is 'bad form'?
Is there more than one form other than the traditional BCA certified instructor form? What about snooker style forms? Do you teach that form as a 'standard'?
<hr /></blockquote>
Just as a note, in watching the Snooker World Championship at the Crucible this week, every player dropped their elbow on the power shots. Every single one of the ones that were broadcast.

That included the more mechanical Ebdon (who dropped about 5")and the more loose O'Sullivan (who dropped his about a foot).

It seems the elbow drop is really detrimental for draw above all other shots because the tip tends to fly up. But the elbow drop allows for more power with less effort. It seems to be a natural flow of the power shot to drop the elbow. Shouldn't instructors advice the benefit of both? Why so one sided? If every professional drops the elbow on power shots, why wouldn't instructors examine the validity rather than try to convince students of the perceived doom and gloom?

Fred

pooltchr
04-30-2005, 08:11 AM
The only time my whole arm gets involved in writing is if I am writing on large blackboard, white board, or tournament chart.
Guess I'm kinda strange.

Obviously, based on the number of responses to this thread, this debate is not going to be resolved. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I know what works for me, and I know what works for my students. Everyone is certainly entitled to choose their own way of stroking the cue. I am a results oriented person, and when I see a student move from an APA3 to an APA7 after incorporating SPFF into his game, I gotta think there's something to it. It seems to be the easiest, most consistant and repeatable stroke. Since most of my students are looking for consistancy in their game, this is the best way I know of for them to get it.
There are hundreds of ways I can go from my house to the pool room. I usually choose the shortest, easiest way.
Steve

Cane
04-30-2005, 08:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> It seems the elbow drop is really detrimental for draw above all other shots because the tip tends to fly up. But the elbow drop allows for more power with less effort. It seems to be a natural flow of the power shot to drop the elbow. Shouldn't instructors advice the benefit of both? Why so one sided? If every professional drops the elbow on power shots, why wouldn't instructors examine the validity rather than try to convince students of the perceived doom and gloom?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred, not trying to be overly argumentative here, but I can make a CB travel up and down the table 5 times (what I could call a 13 speed stroke, if I ever needed one) without dropping my elbow. How much more power do we need? Except for my break shot, which is always between 6 and 10 speed, depending on table, cloth, condition of balls, cushions, humidity, etc, I would never DREAM of hitting a ball that hard playing pocket billiards. When I'm playing in a game, I hit a MAX of about 5 speed (2 3/4 the length of the table) other than on the break. That's EASILY obtained without an elbow drop. I understand your assertion, from observation, that elbow drop makes power easier, but my question is how much power do we really need? And, if we can hit 13 or 14 speed without an elbow drop, a speed that's really unpractical for pocket billiards, then why should we, as either instructors or players, incorporate multiple strokes (one with drop, one without) into our game. Is it not easier to be more consistent if we use the same stroke on every shot? As a flyfisher, I don't use a different casting stroke for long distances than I do for short distances (a GOOD and PROFICIENT flyfishers casting stroke is nothing more than an inverted pendulum stroke for pool) and as a pool player, I have yet to see any evidence that would make me use a different stroke for stroke speed shots that I use for a power shot. If someone could give me a reason besides, "he does it" or "she does it" than I might be convinced, but I have yet to see any valid argument that an elbow drop makes power strokes easier.

Later,
Bob

Wally_in_Cincy
04-30-2005, 08:50 AM
This thread has now surpassed the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack for most weeks in the Number 1 slot.

Scott Lee
04-30-2005, 09:41 AM
Good post Bob! This thread has reached the point of being moot. Fred insists that ALL pros drop their elbow (at least 5"), on power shots (apparently mostly using a topspin tip placement)! You, me, and a few other instructors maintain that the pinned elbow is all that is required, so why do something else...let alone teach that bizarre, completely variable, movement? So, I think this is what it boils down to...

Can a dropped elbow be an advantage in very particular shot situations? Perhaps. Do the advantages outweigh the risks,
in terms of less control of tip placement, and more difficulty in producing the consistent desired speed control, associated with that particular shot. IMO, no!
The predictable outcome of a consistent, pinned elbow swing (added in with perfect timing), is much easier to control tip placement, and repeatable effect with both pocketing the OB, and positioning the CB. Biggest thing to remember...followthrough is the RESULT of a good, natural swing, not the cause!

So, to end this debate nicely, let's agree that IF your stated goal is to become a professional player, you MAY want to invest the time and effort into learning the "dropped elbow" style of shooting...provided you have already MASTERED playing without it! Otherwise, you'll just confuse your brain, and probably never learn either properly. But...for the majority of poolplayers out there...and I'm talking about the FOUR MILLION hard core amateur players in America (remember there aren't even 500,000 in all the organized leagues put together, so most of the players are home town bar leagues), let alone around the world...the easiest way to permanently improve your pool game, is to study the proven system that works over and over...SPF(or some variation of it)!

now...can we please let this thread die?

Scott Lee

tateuts
04-30-2005, 09:42 AM
I kind of wonder if a small amount of elbow drop goes along with the longer bridge and firmer grip popular now. When I had a short bridge, 6" - 8"(from the old straight pool days) and a finger cradle grip, keeping the cue level through the shot was easy. When I went to a longer bridge for 9 ball (10" - 12") , and a more in the hand firmer grip, , the tip tended to curve down and dip too much on draw shots because my elbow was "stuck", so I think I may have adapted to the longer bridge by letting the elbow drop a little, which I consider a more natural movement for a long stroke.

Anyway, with Dave's camera, professional analysis on the technical side by Fred or Bob, and teaching analysis by a top instructor like Randy G or Fran, it would sure be interesting to see a project where a number of pro's are filmed in slow mo through impact, and mark their elbow, head, and shoulder positons. This would be great for a teacher training film and everybody can stop guessing at what they're really doing.

Chris

Cueless Joey
04-30-2005, 09:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> This thread has now surpassed the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack for most weeks in the Number 1 slot.

<hr /></blockquote>
~Staying alive, aah, ah, aah. Staying aliveeeeeee~

Bob_Jewett
04-30-2005, 01:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
Just as a note, in watching the Snooker World Championship at the Crucible this week, every player dropped their elbow on the power shots. Every single one of the ones that were broadcast.
...
Fred <hr /></blockquote>
I'd give my right arm to have mechanics like those guys! It's amazing the power shots they can make with an open bridge.

Fred Agnir
04-30-2005, 05:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> So, I think this is what it boils down to...

Can a dropped elbow be an advantage in very particular shot situations? Perhaps. Do the advantages outweigh the risks,
in terms of less control of tip placement, and more difficulty in producing the consistent desired speed control, associated with that particular shot. IMO, no!
<hr /></blockquote>This in a nutshell is the entire debate. No other "can everything be accomplished with a pinned elbow" is necessary in the debate. Nor is "if your goal is to be a professional."

The ONLY question to ask and answer is if there is any advantage to be gained. If the answer is yes, there is merit in further examination. If no, then it gets tossed.

Fred

Fred Agnir
04-30-2005, 05:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> The only time my whole arm gets involved in writing is if I am writing on large blackboard, white board, or tournament chart.
Guess I'm kinda strange.<hr /></blockquote> No, you're just not paying attention. If you write as a right hander, the words travel to the right. You MUST at the very least move your right forearm in conjunction with your wrist in fingers to travel to the right.

[ QUOTE ]
I am a results oriented person, and when I see a student move from an APA3 to an APA7 after incorporating SPFF into his game, I gotta think there's something to it. <hr /></blockquote>Of course there is something to SPFF. I'm still a firm believer in its application. If anything I've said somehow makes any of the instructors believe I or anyone has something against not dropping the elbow is completely missing the meat of the discussion.

Fred

randyg
04-30-2005, 05:53 PM
Hi Bob: I won the City VNEA Singles Championships last weekend. Playing in the SWEL BCA State finals right now. Team is undefeated as we speak....SPF-randyg

Fran Crimi
04-30-2005, 06:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Thanks Fran,
I usually do things methodically, not always doing them correctly, but at my own pace.

My pool experiences started in the 60s with very few books, no videos, no instructors, no internet and all the good pool players only shared ash trays.

My practice routines always include a session of NEW things I've picked up watching others (something I developed in the 60s and 70s.) and experimenting.

My favorite quote "I would rather be uncomfortable and making shots, than comfortable and missing" <hr /></blockquote>


Cool! You'd be the perfect person to give it a try. You don't mind going out of your comfort zone to try something new.

Do you remember Hal Mix? Back in the mid 80's, Hal graciously offered to critique my game. I was thrilled. He watched me play for awhile and said, "Don't move your elbow." I took his word as gospel and dilligently practiced keeping my elbow still. Got it to where it was second nature for me. Still do it most of the time because of my training.

Then years later I was sitting next to Hal in the stands watching Robin Dodson playing a match. Hal was coaching her at the time and he was remarking that she has one of the best strokes in pool. I looked at him in shock. Robin was dropping her elbow on every shot. I asked him how he could say that, and reminded him of his words to me. He said, "You were lifting your elbow up in your back stroke. I meant for you to keep it still on the way back, not on the way forward." Yikes. So, I figured, oh well...I'm locked into this stroke now, and it's working fine for me so I'll keep it. But I do have to say that I've always wondered about the difference between the strokes. It took me a couple of decades to try it but I'm glad I did.

Fran

pooltchr
04-30-2005, 07:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Hi Bob: I won the City VNEA Singles Championships last weekend. Playing in the SWEL BCA State finals right now. Team is undefeated as we speak....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah...but did you DROP YOUR ELBOW??? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Congrats, Randy! Way to go!!
Steve

Fred Agnir
05-01-2005, 07:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Hi Bob: I won the City VNEA Singles Championships last weekend. Playing in the SWEL BCA State finals right now. Team is undefeated as we speak....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah...but did you DROP YOUR ELBOW??? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Congrats, Randy! Way to go!!
Steve <hr /></blockquote>If this is going to turn into a dick swinging discussion... I won our New England Top Gun tournament (no handicaps). I 100% guarantee my elbow dropped on most if not all of my power shots. I also 100% guarantee that I attempted to maintain SPFF with the standard range of shots.

And both of my teams won trips to the Nationals.

Fred &lt;~~~ doesn't think dick swinging is any indication

SpiderMan
05-01-2005, 08:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Randy,
I have read the 'instructor' debate on the 'elbow drop' for the last 9 days.

None of the instructors have presented any evidence that their way is the ONLY way, only that its an alternative.
I've always been very open minded about such subjects and try to learn and apply to my own benefit. Sometimes the additon is positive, sometimes it just doesn't work for me.

I have been a long time observer of the pros with relation to 'elbow drop' and 'look at the cue ball or object ball LAST?' questions. I've been a little anal with these two subjects in the past.

Jeff Carter was mentioned, and I have to admit, that was a surprize for me.. he was the first I had noticed that didn't drop his elbow even a quarter of an inch. The next time I witnessed a PRO without an elbow drop was Max Eberly. Both players have a SPFF fundamental that is ROCK solid.

As far as the LAST look... its been about 50-50 with the last look being dominate for the OB for long shots.

But, now I see lots of players in the tournaments that I run that ALL drop their elbow. No exceptions. And there are some pretty good players in these tournaments.

I find that most playes that have a head position about a foot above their cue, are most likely to have an 'elbow drop' but, only after contact.

The players that have their chins just above the cue are the least likely.

I am curious; Do you teach your students that 'elbow' drop is 'bad form'?
Is there more than one form other than the traditional BCA certified instructor form? What about snooker style forms? Do you teach that form as a 'standard'?

Just really curious as to why you and your fabulous crew of instructors are so adamently against this elbow drop thing.
<hr /></blockquote>
Because, for the majority of players, and for a large range of shots, it will improve their consistency. But it's definitely not a panacea.

If an instructor has to tell the player something, keeping the elbow still has a far better chance of helping than otherwise. Similarly, in the 60s, if someone had a raging infection and there was no access to lab equipment, a doctor still had a good chance of helping if he gave a shot of penicillin.

SpiderMan

Gayle in MD
05-01-2005, 09:37 AM
Hi Scott,
I'm familiar with Hal"s aiming system. Could you explain in what ways Randy altered the basic premise of his system, or is he just teaching Hal's system?
Thanks,
Gayle /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

recoveryjones
05-01-2005, 10:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Hi Bob: I won the City VNEA Singles Championships last weekend. Playing in the SWEL BCA State finals right now. Team is undefeated as we speak....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah...but did you DROP YOUR ELBOW??? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Congrats, Randy! Way to go!!
Steve <hr /></blockquote>If this is going to turn into a dick swinging discussion... I won our New England Top Gun tournament (no handicaps). I 100% guarantee my elbow dropped on most if not all of my power shots. I also 100% guarantee that I attempted to maintain SPFF with the standard range of shots.

And both of my teams won trips to the Nationals.

Fred &lt;~~~ doesn't think dick swinging is any indication <hr /></blockquote>

Congradulations to Fred and randy G on their recent tournament wins.....dick swinging or no dick swinging...LOL.

Anyways while it seems you two disagree on the elbow drop thing ,it's nice to know that you both agree on the SPFF and both use it.SPFF is something I'm really working hard on to ingrain as a natural part of my stroke.Like you guys I can really see it's merits.

I'm also working on the elbow drop thing,however,I'm not nearly as concerned about. It seems if I use SPFF my shotmaking becomes much more consistent as a good freeze alone guarntees no head lift occured.Within the realm of SPFF if my elbow happens to drop and the shot is still successful,most likely the elbow drop occured after contact,otherwise the shot probably wouldn't have been succesful.

This has been an interesting thread and thanks for all who have contributed.RJ

tateuts
05-01-2005, 11:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> Congradulations to Fred and randy G on their recent tournament wins.....dick swinging or no dick swinging...LOL.

<hr /></blockquote>

I am beginning to hear that giant "swooshing" sound!

aco76
05-02-2005, 05:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
Just as a note, in watching the Snooker World Championship at the Crucible this week, every player dropped their elbow on the power shots. Every single one of the ones that were broadcast.
...
Fred <hr /></blockquote>
I'd give my right arm to have mechanics like those guys! It's amazing the power shots they can make with an open bridge. <hr /></blockquote>

You don't think pro pool players could do the same? Would they be seriously handicapped without closed bridge? (hard to believe) Most of the players are simply too lazy to practice open bridge power shots I know...

recoveryjones
05-02-2005, 06:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote aco76:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
Just as a note, in watching the Snooker World Championship at the Crucible this week, every player dropped their elbow on the power shots. Every single one of the ones that were broadcast.
...
Fred <hr /></blockquote>
I'd give my right arm to have mechanics like those guys! It's amazing the power shots they can make with an open bridge. <hr /></blockquote>

You don't think pro pool players could do the same? Would they be seriously handicapped without closed bridge? (hard to believe) Most of the players are simply too lazy to practice open bridge power shots I know... <hr /></blockquote>

I'm sure most pros could adapt and do a power stroke with an open bridge.A closed bridge can ,however,cover up a lot of stroke flaws.Shoot a power stroke with an open bridge and grip too tight with the backhand and the cue comes flying out of the bridge.A lot of pros have switched to the open bridge,however, on power shots(bottoms and extreme english shots) the go back to the closed bridge to keep the cue straight in it's place.

Tim White (Billiard Sanctuary Master Instructor)says that a closed bridge can be a coverup for a poor stroke.An open bridge reveals everything.RJ

SpiderMan
05-03-2005, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> If this is going to turn into a dick swinging discussion... I won our New England Top Gun tournament (no handicaps). I 100% guarantee my elbow dropped on most if not all of my power shots. I also 100% guarantee that I attempted to maintain SPFF with the standard range of shots.
And both of my teams won trips to the Nationals.
Fred &lt;~~~ doesn't think dick swinging is any indication <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> I won the City VNEA Singles Championships last weekend. SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Uh-oh. I only got second in the City VNEA Singles Championships the year I played. Does this mean that I've come to Fred and Randy's "swinging swordfight" with a short blade? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

Cane
05-03-2005, 09:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> &lt;snip&gt; Does this mean that I've come to Fred and Randy's "swinging swordfight" with a short blade? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Hell, Marty, being the big "Poteau, Oklahoma (pop. 9,000) City Champ, I guess I'm just bringing a pocket knife! /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Bob

Scott Lee
05-03-2005, 10:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> Hell, Marty, being the big "Poteau, Oklahoma (pop. 9,000) City Champ, I guess I'm just bringing a pocket knife! /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Bob...Yeah, but is it a "switchblade", that can just 'flip out' whenever? LMAO

Scott /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee
05-03-2005, 10:36 AM
Gayle...Like all of us instructors, Randy has taken an age-old concept, and adapted it to benefit more poolplayers.
The basic difference between Hal's concept and Randy's concept, is the language. SAM breaks all shots down into one of six shots, numbered from 1-6. A "1" is straight in and a "6" is a 90 degree cut. It is called the SUPPLEMENTAL Aiming Method, because you use it to supplement your own game. Some folks play using it exclusively; and others rely on it, only when they have an internal question about the shot (i.e.: Is this shot a 22 degree angle or a 30 degree angle?). It's used mostly to help keep you from 'second-guessing' yourself! Very easy system to learn and use, imo.

Scott

yegon
05-03-2005, 11:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
Just as a note, in watching the Snooker World Championship at the Crucible this week, every player dropped their elbow on the power shots. Every single one of the ones that were broadcast.
...
Fred <hr /></blockquote>
I'd give my right arm to have mechanics like those guys! It's amazing the power shots they can make with an open bridge. <hr /></blockquote>

I noticed that most of them push the elbow quite a bit out on power shots, so I guess those fundamentals are not that great after all in extreme situations. But they have a couple of million shots played so they can compensate. On normal speed shots their form is unbeatable.

I noticed that they drop their elbow on power shots too.

What I can not understand is those over 60 degree cuts from the area of the triangle into the middle pockets. Those shots are so precise and these guys do not even bother to go check the angle from behind the object ball. They just go down and make it.

recoveryjones
05-03-2005, 05:47 PM
I found another player that doesn't( well at least rarely) drops their elbow.

Last night I watched the 2004 BCA Open Final between Tony Robles and Santos Sambajon. Robles easily won the match and rarely dropped his elbow.When he did drop it, it was ever so slightly.The only shot where there was a noticable drop was the break shot, which most have to agree is a shot of it's own.

Apparently Tony teaches lessons and is busy doing so Mon to Thurs.Has anyone taken lessons for him? If so what is his take on elbow drop?He really got around that table quite nicely and I was impressed with the way he played. RJ

aco76
05-04-2005, 03:49 AM
Normally I don't drop my elbow, but on some power shots, longer follow through just drags the elbow down. No problem with that as it occured ofter contact. It is very useful to teach not to drop the elbow, because the student can acquire discipline rather quickly.

There is a shot where severe elbow drop in the follow through is practically unavoidable if one is to perform it correctly. And no, it's not the break shot. It's this:

START(
%A[2B4%B[0\5%C[4\6%D[6B2%E[7B4%FD6D3%G[7\5%H[4B3%Ir5O3%J[8\9
%K[7]0%L[2]0%M[8]0%N[4\4%O[8\7%Pr2Z1
)END

The object is to draw the cue ball diagonally full table length from one corner pocket to a good position on the 9 (medium speed table). The cueball is very close to opposite corner pocket. One needs a very good jacked up draw shot. If anyone can perform this shot without dropping the elbow even a little, I'd be amazed. Is there a way to keep the head still and your shaft from going way out (up) of your bridge hand on a shot like that?

pooltchr
05-04-2005, 04:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> I found another player that doesn't( well at least rarely) drops their elbow.

Last night I watched the 2004 BCA Open Final between Tony Robles and Santos Sambajon. Robles easily won the match and rarely dropped his elbow.When he did drop it, it was ever so slightly.The only shot where there was a noticable drop was the break shot, which most have to agree is a shot of it's own.

Apparently Tony teaches lessons and is busy doing so Mon to Thurs.Has anyone taken lessons for him? If so what is his take on elbow drop?He really got around that table quite nicely and I was impressed with the way he played. RJ <hr /></blockquote>

Tony does spend a lot of time teaching. Most instructors feel strongly that holding the elbow still is very important to establishing a consistant, repeatable stroke. The more you teach it, the more natural it becomes in your own game.
Steve

Wally_in_Cincy
05-04-2005, 05:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> Apparently Tony teaches lessons and is busy doing so Mon to Thurs.Has anyone taken lessons for him? If so what is his take on elbow drop? <hr /></blockquote>

you might want to start another thread. I think CarolNYC takes lessons from him and she probably won't see this post.

Jennifer Barretta also took lessons from him. You could ask her.

and the elbow drop thread stays at number one on the hit parade for another exciting week /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

DickLeonard
05-04-2005, 05:53 AM
Fred I know Babe Cranfield was an Archery Champion but I can't remember if he said he was a gun expert also. It must have had something to do with being 20/10 in the eyes.####

SPetty
05-05-2005, 09:09 AM
I just wanted to emphasize this post to those that were asking for a shot that can't be performed without an elbow drop...

I can't do this shot at all, but aco76 says it can be done with an elbow drop, but probably can't be done without an elbow drop. Comments?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote aco76:</font><hr> There is a shot where severe elbow drop in the follow through is practically unavoidable if one is to perform it correctly. And no, it's not the break shot. It's this:

START(
%A[2B4%B[0\5%C[4\6%D[6B2%E[7B4%FD6D3%G[7\5%H[4B3%Ir5O3%J[8\9
%K[7]0%L[2]0%M[8]0%N[4\4%O[8\7%Pr2Z1
)END

The object is to draw the cue ball diagonally full table length from one corner pocket to a good position on the 9 (medium speed table). The cueball is very close to opposite corner pocket. One needs a very good jacked up draw shot. If anyone can perform this shot without dropping the elbow even a little, I'd be amazed. Is there a way to keep the head still and your shaft from going way out (up) of your bridge hand on a shot like that? <hr /></blockquote>

Rod
05-05-2005, 09:21 PM
I can't imagine why letting your elbow go through is necessary. Your jacked up with no need to have a big follow through. Besides it just goes to the cloth. At any rate as you'll know if anyone lets there arm go through, on certain shots, it's me.

I think this is not the best way to play the shot anyway.

Rod

aco76
05-06-2005, 12:28 AM
Should have put some obstacle balls around the object ball to make the shot seem more realistic...i.e. no easy follow or help from the cushion possible...:). On a shot like that with about 9ft of distance between CB and OB you need lots of backspin and lots of speed. Jacked up around 40 degrees. The cue will naturally want to follow through the cloth if shot very hard. I just wonder how good one's stroke would have to be to be able to make the shot consistantly...

Scott Lee
05-06-2005, 11:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote aco76:</font><hr> I just wonder how good one's stroke would have to be to be able to make the shot consistantly... <hr /></blockquote>

Answer: VERY good!...but the shot still has NOTHING to do with any 'necessity' for dropping the elbow, in order to complete the shot successfully, or consistently.

Scott Lee