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View Full Version : ? Ruling in an APA 9 ball league match(see wei )



BigRigTom
04-20-2005, 03:48 PM
Here is the WEI

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We are in a league match, I break and leave my oponent snookered behind the 8 ball. He attempts a kick at the 1 ball and misses. The cue ball runs 3 rails and is rolling medium speed directly toward the frozen 2 & 4.
He reaches out and picks up the cue ball mid table, while it is still in motion and hands it to me stating "Ball in Hand".
He then realizes (probably from the look on my face) that he has prevented the cue ball from stricking the 2 ball and breaking it out from the 4.
I truly believe he did not do this on purpose, merely was frustrated at having missed the 1 ball and wasn't thinking when he reached out and picked up the moving cue ball.

The local league office was called for a ruling and they said it is merely a foul, ball in hand, play continues as is and the fact that the 2&4 are still frozen is incidental.

Anyone see this differently?
How should we have proceeded?

Barbara
04-20-2005, 04:13 PM
Tom,

It's a foul to catch the cue ball in this situation.

Barbara

BigRigTom
04-20-2005, 04:31 PM
It is a foul but he has already fouled by missing the one ball.

Rod
04-20-2005, 04:44 PM
It could be ruled as unsportsman like conduct. Usually that will be a warning, not to mention the foul of course. If you feel he did not do this on purpose, (prevent it from hitting the two) then you just agree with the original call. If not say something to the ref, although the ruling may stand, a loss of game or match should happen next time.


Rod

Tom_In_Cincy
04-20-2005, 05:46 PM
BRTom,
Two fouls on the same shot does not mean you get ball in hand twice or loss of game.

Only 1 foul can be called in an inning.

Barbara
04-20-2005, 05:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> It is a foul but he has already fouled by missing the one ball. <hr /></blockquote>

Tom,

Did a ball hit a rail after the frozen ball was hit?

Barbara

pooldude
04-20-2005, 07:28 PM
Barb,

That's his point. The guy picked up the ball before it had a chance to break out the two ball.

catscradle
04-21-2005, 06:04 AM
The ruling as far as I know is just a foul with maybe a bad sportsmanship warning.
IMO it should be lose of game in all circumstances even when the cueball was not going to hit anything, thereby preventing arguments about the offending player's intent.

Wally_in_Cincy
04-21-2005, 06:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr>

...He reaches out and picks up the cue ball mid table, while it is still in motion... <hr /></blockquote>

In APA 8-ball this is loss of game.

A guy did it to me twice in a match last week. I did not call him on it so as to avoid an argument. He was a new player and was unaware of the rule. I told him after the match.

BigRigTom
04-21-2005, 07:49 AM
Thanks to all for your comments.
Rod,
Your description was the way it was viewed by the league operators...we don't really have refs on our regular league night games but the division rep just happened to be in the same pool hall that night and he was consulted about this particular infraction.
He called the local league operators and they told him that the fowl for failing to hit the one is inforced.
Picking up the rolling cue ball which interferred with the game itself would only be viewed as an act of poor sportsmanship. If I felt he did it on purpose I had to write him up and file the complaint with the league operator.
As I said earlier, I really think he was just acting out of frustration and was not thinking.

I certainly was not going to write him up to the league operator. I was not happy about the outcome but stuff happens and I just move on...make the best of it..... and try not to let it screw up the rest of my game.

Thanks again for everyone's insight. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

SpiderMan
04-21-2005, 07:50 AM
It should be loss of game.

What if, in the same situation, the cueball was headed straight for a jawed 8-ball? If the player stops the cueball, you never find out whether it would have struck the 8. Should be loss of game.

Similarly, if the player stopped the cueball before it "accidentally" broke out the only cluster stopping an opponent's run, it should be loss of game.

SpiderMan

BigRigTom
04-21-2005, 08:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> It should be loss of game.

What if, in the same situation, the cueball was headed straight for a jawed 8-ball? If the player stops the cueball, you never find out whether it would have struck the 8. Should be loss of game.

Similarly, if the player stopped the cueball before it "accidentally" broke out the only cluster stopping an opponent's run, it should be loss of game.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

These are all good points and I agree.
Wish we could get the APA to wake up and see it that way too.

WaltVA
04-21-2005, 11:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> It should be loss of game.

What if, in the same situation, the cueball was headed straight for a jawed 8-ball? If the player stops the cueball, you never find out whether it would have struck the 8. Should be loss of game.

Similarly, if the player stopped the cueball before it "accidentally" broke out the only cluster stopping an opponent's run, it should be loss of game.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

These are all good points and I agree.
Wish we could get the APA to wake up and see it that way too. <hr /></blockquote>
Actually, the APA 8-ball rules specify that "A game is forfeited if you alter the course of the cue ball or the 8-ball in a game losing situation." (Rule 10.f) Examples cite stopping a scratching CB or an 8-ball headed for the wrong pocket.

The problem is that in the case of stopping a cluster break-up, it is moot whether that, in itself, would have resulted in a win or loss for the other player.

Our local LO tends to adopt the same attitude as Tom's; BIH foul, if you think the other player did it on purpose, write him up and it will probably be a sportsmanship foul. Every captain's meeting there is a warning: "Tell your players not to touch a rolling CB under any circumstances." We still see an occasional "frustration" pick-up.

Walt in VA

bustah360
04-21-2005, 11:49 AM
Being that he was already penalized giving you ball in hand, he should just get a warning with the next time being loss of game. Although not apa this is generally the rule in most other leagues and tournaments if I'm not mistaken.

Bob_Jewett
04-21-2005, 11:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> ... The cue ball runs 3 rails and is rolling medium speed directly toward the frozen 2 &amp; 4.
He reaches out and picks up the cue ball mid table, while it is still in motion and hands it to me stating "Ball in Hand"... <hr /></blockquote>
Intentionally touching any ball in play (except, obviously, the cue ball when it is in hand) is an unsportsmanlike conduct foul, possibly with the penalty of ejection from the competition and forfeiture of all prizes and standings points. Never, ever touch a ball in play.

However, he was sort of acting as the referee when he picked up the cue ball, and you can't penalize the referee.

I think the fairest way to resolve this would be to give the incoming player two shots, the first of which he must play at the 2&amp;4 at a speed like the cue ball had when picked up, and then his real shot with ball in hand. Unfortunately, this kind of fair solution is completely outside the rules.

BigRigTom
04-21-2005, 12:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> ... The cue ball runs 3 rails and is rolling medium speed directly toward the frozen 2 &amp; 4.
He reaches out and picks up the cue ball mid table, while it is still in motion and hands it to me stating "Ball in Hand"... <hr /></blockquote>
Intentionally touching any ball in play (except, obviously, the cue ball when it is in hand) is an unsportsmanlike conduct foul, possibly with the penalty of ejection from the competition and forfeiture of all prizes and standings points. Never, ever touch a ball in play.

However, he was sort of acting as the referee when he picked up the cue ball, and you can't penalize the referee.

I think the fairest way to resolve this would be to give the incoming player two shots, the first of which he must play at the 2&amp;4 at a speed like the cue ball had when picked up, and then his real shot with ball in hand. Unfortunately, this kind of fair solution is completely outside the rules. <hr /></blockquote>

Bob,
In an effort to keep my original description brief I didn't mention this ....but your comment makes me want to further describe what happened.

When the other player picked up the rolling cue ball and then saw my reaction he then told me he was sorry and that he now realizes he had stopped the cue ball from breaking out the 2 ball. He then told me to go ahead and do what ever I felt was fair. Not knowing any better, I suggested that I simply separate the 2 &amp; 4 approximately like they would have been had the cue ball been allowed to strike the 2 ball. He agreed that was fair. I moved the 2 and 4 and that's when the division rep jumped in and stopped the match saying that I had fouled. Naturally I did not like that call. The Division rep then called the league office and you know the rest of the story.

This kind of thing can only happen in pool...or NO!...maybe it could happen in any kind of competition. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Bob_Jewett
04-21-2005, 05:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> ... what ever I felt was fair. Not knowing any better, I suggested that I simply separate the 2 &amp; 4 approximately like they would have been had the cue ball been allowed to strike the 2 ball. He agreed that was fair. I moved the 2 and 4 and that's when the division rep jumped in and stopped the match saying that I had fouled... <hr /></blockquote>
I think your division rep should have minded his knitting unless called over to handle a dispute. If there is no referee at the table, it is up to the players to find a path to fairness, if they can.

BigRigTom
04-21-2005, 05:30 PM
Yep!
I agree with you.
Rules are great to provide a basis for the game but when strange things happen it is impossible to always have a rule to resolve or define every possible incident.

I really think all involved did the best they could to come to a reasonable solution. No animosity was involved, no cheating intended and we were all just trying to do the right thing for ourselves, our team and each other as well as the league and future players who may have not been so lucky to have had such level heads involved.
It all worked out as it always does &amp; all's well that ends well. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif