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Thunderduck
04-20-2005, 09:09 PM
When you do the set-pause-finish-freeze technique, where are your eyes supposed to be? There are many phases before a shot:

1) practice strokes
2) set your cue at the cue ball
3) backstroke and pause
4) Swing and Finish
5) freeze

Can someone explain how to coordinate my eyes during this process? ... When I watch pro players, it seems they are always looking at the object ball only during S-P-F-F... are you ever supposed to look at the cue ball?

Thanks...

Tduck

nAz
04-20-2005, 10:10 PM
Jesus I sometimes hate reading these types of post... it's gonna mess with my game now thinking about it. kinda like wondering if you breath just before,during or after your final stroke? ARGGHH! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

For me I am looking at both balls while I am lining up the shot, between S&P my eyes are on the CB, and on the OB while in the F&F stages.
I am sure from time to time that I may sneak a peek at the CB just before my final stroke but i am not sure if it hurts my shot/position play doing this, I seem to miss more shots by not having a better following through.

randyg
04-21-2005, 03:58 AM
To all SPF Instructors: nAz couldn't have said it better. Sounds like we paid him......SPF-randyg

pooltchr
04-21-2005, 05:00 AM
Great explanation, nAz! Beware of the little sneak peak though...remember it takes the brain some time to register what it is getting after the eyes shift back to the target.

Randy, How many student openings remain for October class?
Steve

JimS
04-21-2005, 05:09 AM
My eyes switch back and forth during my warm up and aiming strokes then go to the cue ball at "S" to check out the tip position on the cb, then back to the ob and I DO NOT look away from the ob until I see it fall into the pocket.

Qtec
04-21-2005, 05:22 AM
Lets say you have a long shot of 5ft. You are standing on the line of the shot and you chalk your cue for the last time. You begin to bend down to adres the ball to play your shot. My question is this; what are you looking at when you get down on the shot and why?

I,m sure the SPFF squad have a few idea,s on this. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Q

SplinterHands
04-21-2005, 05:35 AM
How about this concept? Just make the ball. If you dedicate yourself to pocketing balls everyday (and not thinking about where your eyes are or how you're breathing) you will have a better chance of improving. Beware of the "snake-oil salesmen" in this game.

littleCajun
04-21-2005, 06:44 AM
Think about shooting a bow and arrow. When you release are you looking at the arrow or the target?

Cane
04-21-2005, 08:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Lets say you have a long shot of 5ft. You are standing on the line of the shot and you chalk your cue for the last time. You begin to bend down to adres the ball to play your shot. My question is this; what are you looking at when you get down on the shot and why?

I,m sure the SPFF squad have a few idea,s on this. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Q <hr /></blockquote>

As I'm bending down on the shot, I am locked on the target, whether it's a ball or a spot on a cushion or whatever. I keep my eyes locked on the target to determine what, if any, fine adjustments need to be made to my aim. Why? I do it this way because my alignment was done in a standing position, as was my distance from the cue ball. Until I start my warmup strokes, I stay locked on the target.

later,
Bob

BigRigTom
04-21-2005, 08:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote littleCajun:</font><hr> Think about shooting a bow and arrow. When you release are you looking at the arrow or the target? <hr /></blockquote>
Applying this to pool....
Is the target the object ball or the pocket?

I'm alway confused about these kind of questions and I have a habit of sometimes taking that sneak peak especially on the long thin cuts or the cases where I have to squeeze past another ball in route to the intended target ball..it almost always screws me up. I either miss the shot or the leave or both....and I am always supprised if I make the shot and get the leave both after that sneak peek. Why do I feel it necessary to take the sneak peek in the 1st place?

What to do...what to do....what to do.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

littleCajun
04-21-2005, 08:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote littleCajun:</font><hr> Think about shooting a bow and arrow. When you release are you looking at the arrow or the target? <hr /></blockquote>
Applying this to pool....
Is the target the object ball or the pocket?
<hr /></blockquote>

The Target should be the object ball you are shooting or the rail that you are using for the kick, or the spot on table that you are pushing out to (9 ball here).

I look at the object while coming down into my shooting position for alinment purpose, (just like cane), then I shift to the object ball to set tip position and for warm up strokes (dont want to hit the cue by mistake). Then eyes to target. FIRE!!!

Qtec
04-21-2005, 08:24 AM
Good answer C.

I might add; the pocket determines the target; the target is a point on the OB or beyond.

Q

littleCajun
04-21-2005, 08:30 AM
I look at the object while coming down into my shooting position for alinment purpose, (just like cane), then I shift to the object ball to set tip position and for warm up strokes (dont want to hit the cue by mistake). Then eyes to target. FIRE!!! <hr /></blockquote>

Good Grieff, What a goober

I look at my cue ball , not the object ball to set my tip!!
Must be a Thursday.

Cane
04-21-2005, 08:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Is the target the object ball or the pocket?

I'm alway confused about these kind of questions and I have a habit of sometimes taking that sneak peak especially on the long thin cuts or the cases where I have to squeeze past another ball in route to the intended target ball..it almost always screws me up. I either miss the shot or the leave or both....and I am always supprised if I make the shot and get the leave both after that sneak peek. Why do I feel it necessary to take the sneak peek in the 1st place? <hr /></blockquote>

Tom, That's sneak peak is a tough habit to break, and it comes from being a little unsure about the shot. Your concious brain wants to double and triple check everything and won't let your subconcious brain play pool! Happens to everyone at one time or another. I confess to it, but when I do it, I just stand up and start my preshot routine again. I try to get in a mindset where I'm surprised if I DON'T get make the thin cut and get position.

Truthfully, once you're set on your target line and have confidence in your aim, there's no reason to take a peak except that your concious mind is doubting things... that's it's job... to screw up a good shot! *S*

BTW, after I've determined my target (the OB, Rail, spot on the table, whatever), I never look at the pocket again. If I hit my proposed aim point, the pocket will get in the way of the OB.

Later,
Bob

Rod
04-21-2005, 08:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr> When you do the set-pause-finish-freeze technique, where are your eyes supposed to be? There are many phases before a shot:

I'll define, disclaimer: This has nothing to do with what SPFF or anyone else that teaches.

1) practice strokes

Eyes go back and forth between o/b and c/b. You’re establishing alignment with each practice stroke.

2) set your cue at the cue ball

This phase, my eyes go slowly from o/b to c/b to zero in the (exact) line and establish (exact) tip placement on the c/b. This is the last time I see the c/b as my eyes start back to the o/b.

3) backstroke and pause

Slow back, if your quick your eyes may lose focus on the o/b. The slight pause is time to be dead focused on the o/b

4) Swing and Finish

Swing, Your still dead focused on the o/b.

Finish, there is no need to follow the o/b to the pocket except in peripheral vision. Only to know if hit fat or thin when they enter the pocket for position evaluation after the shot. If you focus on looking at the o/b path to fast or look at the pocket, you take your original focus away from the contact point on the o/b. Many times even before the cue has made contact with the c/b, (very common). This is part of the jerky strokes I watch and missed balls.

5) freeze

This is where you hold your position and evaluate what happened. Did your cue go straight through? Are you still in balance? Did you move or lift your head and upper body? Did the o/b hit the pocket where intended? You learn from all factors to detect any flaws and make any necessary changes.

None of these factors are meant or even implied to be mechanical by any means. But it very well may be (during practice only) for an indefinite period of time until it becomes a (natural flowing motion) in your regular game. Hope this helps.

Rod

Can someone explain how to coordinate my eyes during this process? ... When I watch pro players, it seems they are always looking at the object ball only during S-P-F-F... are you ever supposed to look at the cue ball?

Thanks...

Tduck <hr /></blockquote>

Scott Lee
04-21-2005, 09:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> How about this concept? Just make the ball. If you dedicate yourself to pocketing balls everyday (and not thinking about where your eyes are or how you're breathing) you will have a better chance of improving. Beware of the "snake-oil salesmen" in this game. <hr /></blockquote>

SplinterHands...Apparently you believe that University research programs are generally about "snake oil"! No doubt there may be SOME truth to that, about some subjects. About this subject, that is baloney. The University of Florida did an excellent study on eye pattern movement among amateur and professional poolplayers (as well as other sports athletes).
That study is now being used by better instructors to help students learn how, where and when to set their eye pattern movements, for the most consistent, successful results. You might call us "snake oil salesmen", but you're very much mistaken.

Your point about just pocketing the balls doesn't hold water. Without a solid preshot routine (which include a specific eye pattern movement), it's tough to develop any kind of consistency...which carries through into ball pocketing (if you're going to try to shoot in more than one ball in an inning).

Scott Lee

SplinterHands
04-21-2005, 10:14 AM
Gee, now I know how to get free information from an instructor. Just question the method to the madness. I'm just tired of seeing instructors prey on chronically inept players promising them greatness. Beginners often become delusional by the aura of the game and are vulnerable to being scammed into false hopes. One hand on the cue stick and the other in the wallet. If it's not in your blood, it doensn't matter how many lessons you take or how many hours you play. I don't think the world's greatest players became who they are by paying someone to teach them S-P-F-F. I don't know what kind of instructor you are, but the "Master" instructor I know couldn't run a pair of pantyhose (which should be a job requirement, in my opinion). How embarrassing would it be to charge $100/hour and not be able to run 3 balls? That's what I mean by snake-oil.

pooltchr
04-21-2005, 10:42 AM
Seems you might be spending time with the wrong instructor...
As for your comments....I can only say that I have yet to have a student leave my class not knowing they have developed new skills to help their game improve.
The teacher can only share knowledge...it's up to the student to apply it.
I hardly consider what I do "selling snake oil". There are many good players out there who benefit from professional instruction. Even the pro's go to instructors to fine tune their game.
Steve

Popcorn
04-21-2005, 10:56 AM
Quote

"I don't think the world's greatest players became who they are by paying someone to teach them S-P-F-F".

Actually you are completely wrong unless you consider the payment to be the factor. I have known may of the best players in the world and they all became the players they are through their association with other knowledgeable players. Whether by actually being taken under someone's wing or hanging with good players and picking it up through asking questions and osmoses, no top player developed in a vacuum and emerge as a champion speed player on their own. Nothing can fast track someone's improvement more then learning from the experience of other players. Trying to learn much of what needs to be known to play at a high level is very difficult to discover on your own through trial and error no matter how many hours you put in.

I feel you are a pretty good player from some of your posts and I am sure you have taken lessons even if you didn't know you were. Watching tournaments or good players match up, I have no doubt you have asked a question or two in your time it all adds up to the same thing, you learn what you know from others. SPFF is by definition the most basic fundamental to learning how to play. It is the basis of play and not meant to be taken literally, no one expects you to play like a robot, but to have some understanding of these basics that applys to the game. It can eliminate many mistakes right from the start a beginner can fall into that will inhibit their improvement. You are a more advanced player and although you may have improved through your own methods, an instructor sticking to proven methods guarantees their students will get off on the right foot. All players as they become players develop their own styles, but I can assure you they all started out with the basics and developed from there.

Your idea of how to improve would be the most difficult and time consuming method as well as the least fruitful. I am sure you don't believe you could put a person in a room with a table and think in a few months they would develop any skills at all compared to another that took structured lessons for the same period of time, it would be ridiculous to think this.

wolfdancer
04-21-2005, 11:02 AM
Good points!!
I can only add that if I had taken lessons from a quality instructor, when I began playing, I could have enjoyed the game, the competiti&gt;
&lt;bC a lot more, over the years.

Wally_in_Cincy
04-21-2005, 11:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> ... I'm just tired of seeing instructors prey on chronically inept players promising them greatness.

I don't know what kind of instructor you are, but the "Master" instructor I know couldn't run a pair of pantyhose (which should be a job requirement, in my opinion). How embarrassing would it be to charge $100/hour and not be able to run 3 balls? That's what I mean by snake-oil. <hr /></blockquote>

It would seem that you have run into a "bad apple" instructor. I can assure you from personal experience that Scott Lee is just the opposite.

Don't let your bad experience make you think that all instructors are just out to take your money. Sure, they expect to be paid for their effort, but there are many, I would guess the vast majority, that can really help you improve your game.

I'm no world beater but my game is considerably better and more consistent due to lessons from a local BCA instructor and subsequently from Scott.

SpiderMan
04-21-2005, 11:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote littleCajun:</font><hr> Think about shooting a bow and arrow. When you release are you looking at the arrow or the target? <hr /></blockquote>
Applying this to pool....
Is the target the object ball or the pocket? <hr /></blockquote>

The target is what you're shooting your projectile at. You're shooting the arrow at the bullseye, and you're shooting the cueball at the object ball.

SpiderMan

randyg
04-21-2005, 11:47 AM
SPLINTERHANDS: I know of NO BCA Master Instructor who can't run 3 balls. All 9 Masters play very stout.

Thunderduck
04-21-2005, 12:32 PM
I can personally say that I've learnt more in one hour with a BCA instructor then I did in 6 months of trial and error...

Thunderduck
04-21-2005, 12:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> Jesus I sometimes hate reading these types of post... it's gonna mess with my game now thinking about it. kinda like wondering if you breath just before,during or after your final stroke? ARGGHH! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

For me I am looking at both balls while I am lining up the shot, between S&amp;P my eyes are on the CB, and on the OB while in the F&amp;F stages.
I am sure from time to time that I may sneak a peek at the CB just before my final stroke but i am not sure if it hurts my shot/position play doing this, I seem to miss more shots by not having a better following through. <hr /></blockquote>

This makes sense I guess, except Im not sure why you'd be looking at the CB during your pause in your backswing... then you'd have to quickly adjust your aim as you begin to swing forward and look at your target... do you find that difficult?

wolfdancer
04-21-2005, 01:19 PM
"play very stout"....that's a good description, that we don't hear anymore..
It's great to know you can all run at least three...lol
Nice thing about this whole accreditation thing is that there were so many good players, but bad instructors, offering lessons....now, at least, there's a "game" plan....and they have learned how to teach.
I'd hope though that it is an evolving process,new things are added, and some discarded. It sounds like that's your philosophy.....

Eric.
04-21-2005, 01:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> Jesus I sometimes hate reading these types of post... it's gonna mess with my game now thinking about it. kinda like wondering if you breath just before,during or after your final stroke? ARGGHH! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Don't forget the all important "are you using your left brain, right brain or the dog's brain". LB-RB-DB.


Eric &gt;woof

SplinterHands
04-21-2005, 01:36 PM
Ok, Ok, your points are well taken....except for the stout comment. Either your definition of stout is highly exaggerated or there is an instructor out there posing as a "Master" instructor. Believe me, his play is anything but stout. Pokey is a better word.

bsmutz
04-21-2005, 01:36 PM
Gee, are we a little biased or what? How do you figure that instructors are preying on unskilled players? If you take flight instruction (hopefully you don't try to learn to fly a plane by yourself) then find out that you don't have an aptitude for flying, did you waste your money? I can think of several activities that I have explored, spending way more than I have spent on pool lessons, that just never panned out or weren't interesting enough to me to continue to pursue. I will say that I played pool with nothing more in the way of instruction than reading Minnesota Fats' book and a few tips from other players along the way for at least 30 years. I wasn't a pool fanatic like I am now, but I played plenty and spent a lot of money. I took one lesson from Scott Lee and immediately saw an improvement in my game. It wasn't just a little improvement either. Scott does guarantee his instruction; if you don't feel like you are getting anything out of it, don't pay. Also, I am now his student for life (his or mine, whichever ends first) and can call him anytime for answers to any question I may have. I'll concede that not all instructors are the same as Scott. However, if someone makes a decision to pay an instructor to help them with their game, then they are not prey. The only way they would be prey is if the instructors were going around to the bars and pool rooms and somehow pressuring your poor, defenseless, susceptible neophytes into taking lessons. I have never been approached by a pool instuctor in my entire life and I don't know anyone who has. If you don't think an instructor can help you improve your game, don't use one. But don't make it sound like instructors are running around looking for people who can't play and then clubbing them over the head to take lessons!

randyg
04-21-2005, 05:36 PM
BSMUTZ: Scott Lee is a GREAT BCA Instructor. Thank you....SPF-randyg

JimS
04-22-2005, 04:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> Gee, now I know how to get free information from an instructor. Just question the method to the madness. I'm just tired of seeing instructors prey on chronically inept players promising them greatness. Beginners often become delusional by the aura of the game and are vulnerable to being scammed into false hopes. One hand on the cue stick and the other in the wallet. If it's not in your blood, it doensn't matter how many lessons you take or how many hours you play. I don't think the world's greatest players became who they are by paying someone to teach them S-P-F-F. I don't know what kind of instructor you are, but the "Master" instructor I know couldn't run a pair of pantyhose (which should be a job requirement, in my opinion). How embarrassing would it be to charge $100/hour and not be able to run 3 balls? That's what I mean by snake-oil. <hr /></blockquote>

Spoken like a guy that paid his bucks, expected to be magically transformed into a champion and still can't make 3 balls. LMFAO!!!!

SplinterHands
04-22-2005, 04:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> Spoken like a guy that paid his bucks, expected to be magically transformed into a champion and still can't make 3 balls. LMFAO!!!! <hr /></blockquote>

Never done that! I prefer learning by watching and playing with the best players in the country, reading books and watching televised pool. You should try that approach and maybe you could learn to run 3 balls.

Thunderduck
04-22-2005, 09:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SplinterHands:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> Spoken like a guy that paid his bucks, expected to be magically transformed into a champion and still can't make 3 balls. LMFAO!!!! <hr /></blockquote>

Never done that! I prefer learning by watching and playing with the best players in the country, reading books and watching televised pool. You should try that approach and maybe you could learn to run 3 balls. <hr /></blockquote>

Dude, teachers are important! Do you think you could learn to play the violin by watching a symphony? Teachers have vast amounts of knowledge that you dont have... if you think you have nothing to learn from a BCA instructor, you are insane...