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pooltchr
04-21-2005, 07:44 PM
What if someone had the computer resources, data entry manpower, and communications network to program the results of every match of every tournament played each week. Then using a formula something like the BCS ratings for college football teams, based on who played who, and the results. Could they develop a reasonably accurate rating system for pool players across the country? More important, would anyone find that data useful or interesting?
Just something to think about...

Steve

Bob_Jewett
04-21-2005, 08:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> What if someone had the computer resources, data entry manpower, and communications network to program the results of every match of every tournament played each week. Then using a formula something like the BCS ratings for college football teams, ... <hr /></blockquote>
Mike Page already described such a system in the October 2002 issue of Billiards Digest (sometimes I get the feeling that no one here bothers to subscribe to the magazine even though it makes this forum possible). He analyzed all the matches for the 2002 World Nineball Championships, and calculated relative ratings of the players there based solely on those matches.

If some bright programmer made a tournament-management program that was so easy to use and flexible that all tournament directors would use it, that program could have the hooks necessary to forward properly formatted data to a central records keeper.

Who will pay for it? How will you identify players? If there were a US pool federation, I suppose it could identify its members.

Rich R.
04-22-2005, 02:40 AM
I would find that information interesting, but I have no real use for it.

Rich R.
04-22-2005, 02:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> sometimes I get the feeling that no one here bothers to subscribe to the magazine even though it makes this forum possible<hr /></blockquote>
Speaking for myself, I do subscribe and have for a number of years. However, I can't say that I have the time or the inclination to read every single article. Sometimes, I miss something that I probably should have read.
Stuff happens. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I'm sure some others are in the same situation at me.

JimS
04-22-2005, 03:38 AM
Hell I forget stuff within 5 min after having read it. Short term memory damage I suspect. Maybe haveing to do with the "lost 70's" (a quart of whiskey a day, pot all day long every day, a bunch of acid over the years and more than my share of shrooms, downers, cocaine and speed) I read every page and enjoy the experience but my brain has developed a layer of teflon. Nuttin sticks.....I have to be retrained everyday to do my job.

Leviathan
04-22-2005, 04:28 AM
'Lo, Poolteacher. My initial reaction is negative. I think that the system would almost certainly be used to establish handicaps for local tournament play. It would become harder to find straight-up tournaments to play in. (I have this nightmare: I wake up one morning and find an APA SL number tattooed on the inside of my elbow! I go the ph to find out what's going on and the regular counterman has been replaced by Dick Cheney! He tells me that Renee Poehlman has bought the place! I notice that I don't have any clothes on!)

What benefits do you see coming from a universal ranking setup?

AS

eg8r
04-22-2005, 04:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
sometimes I get the feeling that no one here bothers to subscribe to the magazine even though it makes this forum possible <hr /></blockquote> Nope, you are the only one. And thank goodness for you, who else would bother to remember such an article about one single tournament in 2002. I guess we are all on the hook to remember it 3 years from now should the topic come up again. Sheesh!!!

eg8r

eg8r
04-22-2005, 04:36 AM
Like Rich said, it would be interesting, but I would not have any use for it.

eg8r

DickLeonard
04-22-2005, 09:14 AM
Bob back in the 60s we had a mathematician who developed a system from a straight pool tournament,end of runs to misses,safetys,etc. It was quite elaborate. Then he went to Stanford University and we never heard from him again.####

Bob_Jewett
04-22-2005, 10:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Bob back in the 60s we had a mathematician who developed a system from a straight pool tournament,end of runs to misses,safetys,etc. It was quite elaborate. Then he went to Stanford University and we never heard from him again.#### <hr /></blockquote>
Maybe he is the one who developed the system that is (was) used by LaddersOnline for its competitions. It manages to rate players on a single scale and adjust their ratings even when play is in very separate locations. See http://www.laddersonline.com

The system there is the "Glicko Rating System" (GRS) by a Prof. Mark Glickman.

There seems to have been no activity on that site since 2001.

Bob_Jewett
04-22-2005, 10:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Like Rich said, it would be interesting, but I would not have any use for it.... <hr /></blockquote>
Wouldn't you like to know how you stack up against the rest of the players in the country? Chess players seem to find their ratings interesting and useful.

DickLeonard
04-22-2005, 11:04 AM
Bob his name was Mike Pascual,he worked for the Watervliet Arsenal a manufacturer of cannons since 1812. I always wondered if Mike got the job because Stanford was born in Watervliet or was he a brilliant mathematician.####

wolfdancer
04-22-2005, 11:11 AM
Dick, if I'm not mistaken...he developed the USPPA handicap system???

heater451
04-22-2005, 04:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> What if someone had the computer resources, data entry manpower, and communications network to program the results of every match of every tournament played each week. Then using a formula something like the BCS ratings for college football teams, ...<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>. . .If some bright programmer made a tournament-management program that was so easy to use and flexible that all tournament directors would use it, that program could have the hooks necessary to forward properly formatted data to a central records keeper.

Who will pay for it? How will you identify players? If there were a US pool federation, I suppose it could identify its members.<hr /></blockquote>Addressing the software question first, the data could be taken from different software sources, as long as individual records for players could be exported. Data could be taken in an Excel (.xls) file, a 'fixed format' text file, or any type of delimited file (comma-delim, tab-delim, pipestem, etc.).

For the sake of argument, if you were working with league handicaps, instead of tourneys, and if one were friendly with the Database Administrators for the main leagues, then the data for a whole league might be obtainable in one spot, instead of from every individual, local league operator.--If you are dealing with tourney results and not league results, it would be harder, since there are so many tourneys possible to deal with.

Anyway, some common fields would be required in each data source, like Name, Team Name, Handicap System, Player#, Base Location (City), and the like. Abbreviations from the Hcp System could be used to help separate possible duplicate numbers, to create the Player# (e.g., there may be two players w/ number 090675, which would become TAP-090675 and APA-090675 and so forth.

There would probably need to be an 'adjusted handicap' field in the "master" database, so that player could match themselves across hcp systems--that, or maybe do the calculations for the unknown handicaps. An example of that would be when an APA-7 submits his ranking, a TAP ranking of 6 is generated for him as well (if I have the adjustment correct). I'm not sure how to handle "home-grown" handicap data. . . .

Anyway, then software could be created or purchased, to map the input files to a 'standard format', which would be loaded to a database (the "master" that I mentioned). This would take care of most of the Data Entry labor.

...I just thought of a caveat. . . .an "active" flag, and a "last active date" might have to be included in the Master DB, to handle players who drop from circulation. This also illustrates a problem with projects like this: Scope-creep. Someone will always want a field added to the database.

Regular updates might be hard to come by as well, since it would be best to have data submitted on a regular basis. This takes us back to the questions of the "communication network"--how do we get everyone included. And, are we sure that every director out there has a laptop?

As for computer resources for the db, I would think renting a server and running a PHP/MySQL database (free) would work. Someone at home could run Linux (free), and Apache Server (free), but might run into bandwith and upload/download size caps.

As usual, the question that rings loudest is, "Who will pay for it?"---Initial costs would probably have to be by donation. Although, once something like this is running, I suppose that banners and the occasional pop-up add might be able to support it. (Are there any web-advertising/finance people in the forum?)



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ras314
04-22-2005, 05:11 PM
Steve, Arizona has had a simpler version in place for several years. I think the list isn't on the internet anymore but it is still used in the handicapped tournaments. Thousands of people for just one state, basiclly rated 5 to 10.

You get rated by someone certified to do ratings, then is changed by how you place in the tournaments. I'm rated an 8 which seems about right, a 10 isn't far from a pro. and a 9 is subject to run a lot of racks.

Rod probably has a better feel for how useful such a scheme is.