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RottingMindz
04-23-2005, 02:54 PM
I posted a thread a while ago asking how to compensate my aim when using sidespins. One of the forumer suggested to aim normally, and then just rotate horizontally a bit so that your cue is no longer pointing at the center, thus giving the ball sidespin. The method seems to work well, however, sometimes I miss horrendously. Which prompted the question, does the method work on all shots? Or if you have other methods that you use and think it is better, please suggest it, thank you.

wolfdancer
04-23-2005, 03:21 PM
it's called backhand english....try this....Hal Houle's method
instead of aiming your cue on a line perpendicular through the center of the cueball...then swinging right or left
begin by aiming through the 1/4 point on the cueball, then swing just until the tip has crossed the center line.

ras314
04-23-2005, 05:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
begin by aiming through the 1/4 point on the cueball, then swing just until the tip has crossed the center line.
<hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Squirt is related to the sideways distance off a center cb hit, but sidespin by itself has no effect on the cb path. Angle of the cue above horizontal with a side offset will cause the cb path to curve. The higher you elevate the cue's butt while contacting the same point on the cb the more curve, or massey effect you will get for a given speed.

So how does the Hal Houle method account for how level the cue stroke is? Or how much deflection a particular shaft has? Or how to account for the difference in cloth friction between tables for that matter.

I've about decided nothing beats trial and error. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Billy_Bob
04-23-2005, 06:14 PM
It's probably best at this point if you can set up some tests to see what is going on and learn about different shots.

Try hitting the far center diamond with dead center, then with left or right english (cue ball only).

Then do the above, except across the short side of the table.

Can you hit the diamond using english with a long shot and a short shot?

May want to experiment by placing your bridge hand at different distances from the tip (start with about 9 inches) and moving the back of your cue for english. (Aim dead center, then while keeping bridge hand where it is, move your back hand slightly to right or left for english.)

Then may want to do the same experiment using different cues. Different cues work differently when using english. This is called cue ball deflection or squirt.

Once you can get the cue ball to go where you want when using english, then next would be to place stickers on the table and set up various cut shots. With the stickers you can shoot the same exact shot over and over.

Interesting things happen when you use english - to the cue ball and to the object ball. It is a good learning experience to set up the same shots, shoot them over and over, and try different things.

If you don't understand why something is happening, learn to use the "Wei pool table" at the below link. You can diagram a shot by dragging the balls on the table to where you want them, then press "copy" and you will get text like the following which you can paste into a message here. Then diagram a shot and ask here what is going on with the shot you are having trouble with. We will be able to copy and paste the text and then see what shot you are having trouble with.

Example WEI shot text....
(Copy the text including START and END, then click "paste" at below link.)

START(
%Ag3O5%Pm8V4%Wh9P7%Xm1U5%]D4D3%^f7O2

)END

To clear the table of all balls, paste the following...

START()END

Wei Pool Table...
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/

Troy
04-23-2005, 07:05 PM
First, aiming thru the 1/4 point depends on the specific cut shot. It could be a center ball aim, a 1/4 ball aim, or a 3/4 ball aim.
Second, back-hand english should compensate for squirt (which definitely DOES have an effect on CB path), but you need to determine your cue's "pivot point" for it to work properly, specially on longer shots.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
begin by aiming through the 1/4 point on the cueball, then swing just until the tip has crossed the center line.
<hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Squirt is related to the sideways distance off a center cb hit, but sidespin by itself has no effect on the cb path. Angle of the cue above horizontal with a side offset will cause the cb path to curve. The higher you elevate the cue's butt while contacting the same point on the cb the more curve, or massey effect you will get for a given speed.

So how does the Hal Houle method account for how level the cue stroke is? Or how much deflection a particular shaft has? Or how to account for the difference in cloth friction between tables for that matter.

I've about decided nothing beats trial and error. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

ras314
04-23-2005, 10:42 PM
Obviously the amount squirt or deflection chances the cb path! That is in the opposite direction of the path's curvature which is a function of the verticle spin component. Now please explain how the Hal Houle aiming method accounts for the amount of curve in the path. I don't pretend to understand the system, nor how it even applies to the original posters question.

wolfdancer
04-24-2005, 02:01 AM
what's to explain?...since you have all the answers

wolfdancer
04-24-2005, 02:37 AM
I'm not sure I know what you are trying to say here...did you want to change the thread, and explain masse and squirt to us, or did you not understand what was asked originally?

wolfdancer
04-24-2005, 03:00 AM
explaining Hal's method may not be too clear here.
Troy worked with Hal quite a bit,and might be of more help
The theory behind back english is that it "compensates" for squirt....
using Hal's system you aimed at either the edge of the O.B. or the center, depending on the cut angle...sighting through 1/4 of the C.B. then swung the butt until the tip crossed the center of the C.B.
C. J. Wiley's aiming system, without back eng ...uses the same two points on the O.B.to aim at.

All aiming systems begin to fail as the distance increases between the balls

Troy
04-24-2005, 07:06 AM
I'm not going to try to explain "HOW" the method works to compensate for squirt.
Try this experiment (unless you're using a Predator shaft) --
1.. With the CB on the Head spot, aim at the Foot spot using "parallel english. Notice that the CB does NOT pass over the foot spot but misses by some amount. With left english the CB will be to the right of the spot. With right english the opposite. Either way, when the CB hits the end rail the side spin will take, but you will have missed the aim point (the foot spot).
2.. Again with the CB on the Head spot, aim at the Foot spot on dead cent center of the CB. Just prior to pulling the trigger, rotate the BACK-HAND around the bridge to attain the same amount of english as in step 1.. The CB should pass over the Foot spot provided you have determined the "pivot point" of your shaft.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> Obviously the amount squirt or deflection chances the cb path! That is in the opposite direction of the path's curvature which is a function of the verticle spin component. Now please explain how the Hal Houle aiming method accounts for the amount of curve in the path. I don't pretend to understand the system, nor how it even applies to the original posters question.
<hr /></blockquote>

RottingMindz
04-24-2005, 07:21 AM
Thank you guys for all the replies, I definitely will try some of your suggestions if I get to play today.
BTW, how about the parallel english? How would I aim for that? I want to try both ways to see which one suits me. If someone care to explain that would be great.

ras314
04-24-2005, 08:24 AM
For what its worth I find I don't see well enough to tell where the cb hits the rail on as long shot. So I put a coin on the edge of the rail as the aiming point. If it jumps straight up I assume the cb hit the aiming point, sideways a bit will show on which side the cb hit.

Also the old shot with the cb on the headspot and the ob on the center of foot rail will show quite clearly if I am allowing for swerve and deflection. In fact this shot is what made it quite obvious to me that the "pivot point" varies considerably with elevation of the cue butt.

I never found that back hand english worked wery well for me except for close relativly easy shots. But then I miss most long diffucult shots anyway. lol

Billy_Bob
04-24-2005, 08:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RottingMindz:</font><hr> BTW, how about the parallel english? How would I aim for that? I want to try both ways to see which one suits me. If someone care to explain that would be great. <hr /></blockquote>

Well with parallel english, you aim dead center then shift your entire stick over so it is parallel to a dead center hit.

So again, experiment with this, try to hit the far center diamond with a center hit several times (cue ball only), then with parallel english. See if the cue ball hits the same spot as a center hit or if it is off the mark by an inch or more.

The thing is, if you know what you need to do to use english *and* get the cue ball to go where you want exactly, then it makes using english a whole lot easier.

If the cue ball is off on a long shot by two inches when using english, then it would be off by one inch with half the distance. This makes aiming when using english very difficult.

However if you can use backhand english and get the cue ball to hit the same spot as a center hit, then BINGO, you are in business! If you have a ball all the way down table near the corner pocket (cut shot), you can use english to direct the cue ball this way or that way when it hits the rail. And you will know in advance that the cue ball will go to the same place as a center hit. So just line up your shot with center, then use your trusty method of applying english.

There is more to it than this when using english with cut shots, but for now, just getting the cue ball to go where you want will be a good start...

Stretch
04-24-2005, 10:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RottingMindz:</font><hr> Thank you guys for all the replies, I definitely will try some of your suggestions if I get to play today.
BTW, how about the parallel english? How would I aim for that? I want to try both ways to see which one suits me. If someone care to explain that would be great. <hr /></blockquote>

Right, here's my version, might not be the "right" version, but it's how i do it.

For useing parallel english it helps me to use the railway tracks aiming system. That's where you imagine lines running from the outside edge and inside edge of the cueball straight to the object ball with the contact piont in the middle. Your going to send the cueball right down the track. This imagery helps you accurately parallel shift your cue because it gives you not one but two parallel lines as references (the track).

For medium to medium-hard shots the squirt (throw) will be quite significant, like complete derailment lol and each shaft will react differently. For YOUR cue set this up. Cueball on the head spot object ball on the foot rail tight to the centre diamond. Your objective is to cut it into the left pocket (the imposible cut shot) Aim half ball (railwaytracks), parallel shift left english and shoot medium-hard. If you miss it will be to the right useing left english. Adjust by aiming more and more to the object ball. For my cue and stroke, i need to aim on the inside edge of the ob, to hit the outside edge and make the shot. That's one full ball of squirt. Half that for half the distance.

This is a specialty shot and one that you need not practice a whole lot IMO because it's so rare to take on a shot of this difficulty in a match. I'll use a lot of english on easy shots, but as the distance and angles get greater, greater care must be given to ACCURACY. I wouldn't recommend useing more than a tip of side for most shots, and in most cases half a tip is all you need (if you NEED it)

Incidently, useing inside english (on close thin cuts) in many cases makes them easier to aim. I'll let you figure that out /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif There....hope i havn't totaly fu%ked you up lol. But hey! that's why we have proffecional teachers on here..... to FIX you i mean lol St.

BigRigTom
04-24-2005, 10:46 AM
The idea of the coin on the rail is a really good one. I have tried that and it truely gives you some useful feed back.

May I suggest that you can also use the Jim Rempe Training Ball (http://store.yahoo.com/bigrigtoystore/jimretrba.html) in this exercise to see if you are really hitting the cue ball where you think your are. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif
If you are like me you'll find that you are about 1/2 tip off of where you think you are...(my personal problem anyways /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif). That half tip will make a BIG difference in how the cue ball reacts off the rail.

ras314
04-24-2005, 11:28 AM
Tom, I have the Rempe training ball and fine it quite useful. After a whole lot of cussing and some effort I now have my ingrained "hit to the right of where I want" down to around 1/4 tip. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Still working on getting rid of the high hit. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I find the coin trick also useful for banks and determining where the cb hits the rail off the ob. Works well with multi rail banks and kicks also. I am such a poor player that I need all the useful feedback I get.

Troy
04-24-2005, 12:56 PM
IMO this is not an effect so much of the "pivot point", but is the result of a slight massŤ and takes considerable practice to accurately control.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr>.....the "pivot point" varies considerably with elevation of the cue butt.
<hr /></blockquote>