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Thunderduck
04-26-2005, 01:21 AM
All videos and books about pool stances say you should "bend at the waist". What they dont explain is what this really means. There are many angles you could bend.

Lets say you were to line up your body at a 45 degrees angle with the cue and line of aim, which is typically the best way to align yourself for most good players. You now have two directions to bend in. You can bend towards the cue(90 degrees), creating a twist in the torso. Or you can bend in the same direction your body is facing(45 degrees), creating no twist in the torso.

Im experimenting with these two options, not sure which one is best in the long run... what do the pros do? Any opinions on which is better?

Tduck

Rod
04-26-2005, 02:33 AM
I hope you bend forward, towards the shot direction. That happens to be established in your pre-shot routine. Your eyes control the exact direction you bend.

Lets not forget you can [censored] your head as well, which adds one more peice to the mixture. (Everyone has different eye sight). Your eyes still control your line of sight. Don't they? With all due respect; lets not put rocket science in where it does not belong. Bend over in a manner that keeps you eyes in alignment with your target standing straight up. Of course there is a very slight adjustment once your down but if your to far off, you stand up and start again.
Once your pre-shot routine is established, it becomes natural.

Rod

JimS
04-26-2005, 03:35 AM
You NEED a lesson. Get with a teacher who can show you how to get all the fundamentals in place correctly and then practice for hours and hours and get all the movements grooved. Do it right from the beginning with a few lessons to get started.

Thunderduck
04-26-2005, 01:04 PM
Well the reason I asked this question relates to an earlier thread I started about back pain. It seems that twisting my torso will give me back pain in my right side, but it gives me a much better alignment for my shot. Bending without a twist feels a bit better and less painful, but it becomes harder to line up the shot comfortably... so I was just curious what most people do in their stance... because if most people can twist their torso and bend forward with no pain and do that over the course of a lifetime, that means I have a real structural problem with my back...

Tduck

ciscodog
04-26-2005, 02:12 PM
karen corr demonstrates the best bend at the waist technique

Thunderduck
04-26-2005, 03:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ciscodog:</font><hr> karen corr demonstrates the best bend at the waist technique <hr /></blockquote>

Ok cool! Does she have a video or explanation of it somewhere?

Barbara
04-26-2005, 03:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Thunderduck:</font><hr>

Ok cool! Does she have a video or explanation of it somewhere? <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, and you just missed it at Corner Billiards last Sunday. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Barbara~~~missed it, too... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

tateuts
04-26-2005, 04:00 PM
I don't get it. My hips are what is turned. I stand back on the shot line and step forward to set up the shot.

You bend at the knees and waist, like you're sitting on the edge of a bar stool, turning your hips 45 - 60 degrees to the shot. Support your weight like a mini squat.

Assuming you're right handed, just your right foot is on the shot line, your left one is well left of it.

Chris

Thunderduck
04-26-2005, 04:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> I don't get it. My hips are what is turned. I stand back on the shot line and step forward to set up the shot.

You bend at the knees and waist, like you're sitting on the edge of a bar stool, turning your hips 45 - 60 degrees to the shot. Support your weight like a mini squat.

Assuming you're right handed, just your right foot is on the shot line, your left one is well left of it.

Chris
<hr /></blockquote>

Hmmm... ok, so you're not twisted between hips and torso from what you describe here... do you have a pic of your stance by any chance?

Stretch
04-26-2005, 05:56 PM
Personaly, since i'm 6'5" i bend at the kneese. Otherwise i'd have no back left by now. I learned the classic snooker stance with the straight right leg and get down right over the cue but the older i got the more effort it became. I still keep my back foot under the butt of the cue and step forward and off to the side and bend both knees slightly. The test to being ballanced and solid is if you can lift your bridge hand off the table without falling farward. I try to keep my wieght a little back from centre. You should take great care in getting down in the stance, this i know. Bad foot work or awkward approach will ruin the shot every time. You really need to be able to nail your stance and feel good about where you are. It's also critical to be just the right distance from the cue ball. Crowding the cue ball is a common mistake as is standing too far away. Just right for me is when i'm facing the shot i hold my cue on the but with my hand beside my pocket and the tip next to the cue ball. I can take my stance from there. Another way is to stand behind your pointed cue 9at the cueball. that way you can step forward with your plant foot, then down, in a more agressive approach. but never, ever, step sideways into a shot or get lazy and lean into it. That's just plain dumb. It all starts with the proper foot work. St.

ciscodog
04-26-2005, 06:45 PM
i wish i could have seen it at frans but i missed it...well kare toldme she learned it while learning snooker

tateuts
04-26-2005, 06:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> Personaly, since i'm 6'5" i bend at the kneese. Otherwise i'd have no back left by now. I learned the classic snooker stance with the straight right leg and get down right over the cue but the older i got the more effort it became. I still keep my back foot under the butt of the cue and step forward and off to the side and bend both knees slightly. The test to being ballanced and solid is if you can lift your bridge hand off the table without falling farward. I try to keep my wieght a little back from centre. You should take great care in getting down in the stance, this i know. Bad foot work or awkward approach will ruin the shot every time. You really need to be able to nail your stance and feel good about where you are. It's also critical to be just the right distance from the cue ball. Crowding the cue ball is a common mistake as is standing too far away. Just right for me is when i'm facing the shot i hold my cue on the but with my hand beside my pocket and the tip next to the cue ball. I can take my stance from there. Another way is to stand behind your pointed cue 9at the cueball. that way you can step forward with your plant foot, then down, in a more agressive approach. but never, ever, step sideways into a shot or get lazy and lean into it. That's just plain dumb. It all starts with the proper foot work. St. <hr /></blockquote>

This is a perfect description. I'm only 6'1" and it works for me exactly the same. I want my head and shoulders to be rock steady, have plenty of room for the cue to move.

Thunderduck - you might need to make several adjustments. You're twisted up. If there is any way you could see a professional instructor I would recommend it.

Chris

Thunderduck
04-26-2005, 07:29 PM
I did see a BCA instructor a week ago believe it or not... he felt my stance was okay...I decided to check here on how to bend, in case I was doing it wrong and he wasnt noticing. So the conventional wisdom seems to be that you can bend how you like, as long as you stay in good alignment with the line of aim...

perhaps I'm a freak of nature! I guess a trip to the doctor is called for if I cant bend like you guys can...

Quack!

One
04-27-2005, 06:07 AM
The most important thing is to have both hips horizontal, I have seen players with the left hip lower than the right, this is very wrong.

You should have about 70% of the weight on your right leg, the left leg can be at a 0-45 degree angle forwards while still having the exact same weight on the right leg.
If you move your left leg more than 45 degrees forwards you will add more weight to it and twist your torso less, many pros use this stance. They step forwards with their front foot (left) and add most of the weight to it, then they move downwards and back and split the weight equal of both legs.

The best stance is where you add most of your weight on your right foot first, and then step 0-45 degrees with your left foot. Don't let your upper body move to the left when stepping down with your left foot! This is why you need to have more weight on your right leg.

You can have the right leg little bent or straight, I am still experimenting which is best, I have noticed that after many hours of playing it feels more relaxing to have the right leg straight, because I get tired if the leg is little bent. A straight leg is also more consistent and makes you bend down straighter. But I use a bent leg because it is much faster to play that way. It is also easier to shoot harder when your leg is bent.

Straight right leg = Left foot 0-20 degrees
Bent right leg = Left foot 20-45 degrees

The left foot should be pointing parallel the cue or little to the left if it is more relaxing. The right foot should be pointing 45 degrees to the right.

Remember that the hips should always be horizontal compared to the floor.
I haven't seen any pool player that has as good stance as me, Jim Rempe is close though.

Thunderduck
04-27-2005, 09:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote One:</font><hr> The most important thing is to have both hips horizontal, I have seen players with the left hip lower than the right, this is very wrong.

You should have about 70% of the weight on your right leg, the left leg can be at a 0-45 degree angle forwards while still having the exact same weight on the right leg.
If you move your left leg more than 45 degrees forwards you will add more weight to it and twist your torso less, many pros use this stance. They step forwards with their front foot (left) and add most of the weight to it, then they move downwards and back and split the weight equal of both legs.

The best stance is where you add most of your weight on your right foot first, and then step 0-45 degrees with your left foot. Don't let your upper body move to the left when stepping down with your left foot! This is why you need to have more weight on your right leg.

You can have the right leg little bent or straight, I am still experimenting which is best, I have noticed that after many hours of playing it feels more relaxing to have the right leg straight, because I get tired if the leg is little bent. A straight leg is also more consistent and makes you bend down straighter. But I use a bent leg because it is much faster to play that way. It is also easier to shoot harder when your leg is bent.

Straight right leg = Left foot 0-20 degrees
Bent right leg = Left foot 20-45 degrees

The left foot should be pointing parallel the cue or little to the left if it is more relaxing. The right foot should be pointing 45 degrees to the right.

Remember that the hips should always be horizontal compared to the floor.
I haven't seen any pool player that has as good stance as me, Jim Rempe is close though.

<hr /></blockquote>

Excellent description, thanks! If you have a pic of your stance, or know a website that shows this stance, please tell me. As always, a visual example can make learning easier...

Quack!

wolfdancer
04-27-2005, 10:38 PM
"All videos and books about pool stances say you should "bend at the waist""
I wasn't going to respond to this...seemed like a moot point
but....
in golf we are told not to bend at the waist, but rather at the hips....in pool????....or was that just semantics?
AND re: which way to bend? If the stance is at a 45* angle, wouldn't bending just forward, negate that?
Why have your feet going one way, and your body the other...unless you're playing hockey, and trying to deke somebody?

Thunderduck
04-28-2005, 03:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> "All videos and books about pool stances say you should "bend at the waist""
I wasn't going to respond to this...seemed like a moot point
but....
in golf we are told not to bend at the waist, but rather at the hips....in pool????....or was that just semantics?
AND re: which way to bend? If the stance is at a 45* angle, wouldn't bending just forward, negate that?
Why have your feet going one way, and your body the other...unless you're playing hockey, and trying to deke somebody? <hr /></blockquote>

Because we turn 45 degrees to get our body out of the way of the swinging arm, but the cue is still pointing straight forward at 90 degrees. You bend at the waist into the shot so you can face the shot. The only way to avoid this is to face the shot and bend forward, known as the "pushing" shot. This is considered incorrect technique (page 13 Phil Cappelle's Play Your Best Pool).

ras314
04-28-2005, 06:53 PM
"perhaps I'm a freak of nature! I guess a trip to the doctor is called for if I cant bend like you guys can..."


You are not the only one with these problems. I've seen some of the smaller women pros walk up to the table and just flop over at the waist with both legs straight. They'd be carying me out on a stretcher if I did that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Even if I'm fairly comfortable with the stance but then try to straighten up higher to shoot over a ball I'm probably through playing pool for several days.

I know a few players with worse backs than mine, usually they just spend less time down on the ball and don't get as low as most people.

Thunderduck
04-29-2005, 07:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> "perhaps I'm a freak of nature! I guess a trip to the doctor is called for if I cant bend like you guys can..."


You are not the only one with these problems. I've seen some of the smaller women pros walk up to the table and just flop over at the waist with both legs straight. They'd be carying me out on a stretcher if I did that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Even if I'm fairly comfortable with the stance but then try to straighten up higher to shoot over a ball I'm probably through playing pool for several days.

I know a few players with worse backs than mine, usually they just spend less time down on the ball and don't get as low as most people. <hr /></blockquote>

Actually, do you think there is a difference between bending from the hips vs bending from the waist? Maybe that could relieve some pressure...?