PDA

View Full Version : Pocket Size



Cane
04-26-2005, 07:45 PM
Question. My home table has shimmed pockets. REALLY shimmed. My corner pockets are just 4 5/16" and my side pockets are 4 5/8". Of course, I don't have many friends that enjoy playing on my table, so did I shim them too much to be practicle or even playable for the recreational player (which most of my friends are)? I'm afraid, even though I like them, that I'm going to have to widen them somewhat because my sons and Billie's daughter don't make very many balls on them (very tight and hard facings) and they get easily frustrated when they think they made a good shot and the table plays the tom toms back to them. I don't mind widening them out, but where, in your opinions, should I be with them? I had one player, whom I respect vastly, say that I should be at 5" on the corners and 5 1/4" on the sides? What do the CCBers think?

Thanks in advance for your input

Bob

Nightstalker
04-26-2005, 07:51 PM
I think the specs that your friend gave are the same, if not close to, as the pockets on a Valley table. That would play the easiest. I personally would prefer to play/practice on a bit tighter table than that, 4 3/4" on the corners and 5" on the sides.

Troy
04-26-2005, 08:01 PM
Check out the Equipment Spec's on the BCA-POOL website. Corners are 5" +/- 1/8", sides are 5 1/2" +/- 1/8".
Shims or pocket facings (they're the same thing) are 1/8" with 1 on the end of each rail rubber. "Double Shimmed" pockets would be 1/4" tighter, triple shimmed would be 1/2" tighter.
However, when shimming, the attack angle goes bad so the very correct method (and it's expensive) done by two top table mechanics I know is to lengthen the rails. This requires also lengthening the wood backing.

IMO, a decent compromise is 4 3/4" corners via double shims.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> Question. My home table has shimmed pockets. REALLY shimmed. My corner pockets are just 4 5/16" and my side pockets are 4 5/8". Of course, I don't have many friends that enjoy playing on my table, so did I shim them too much to be practicle or even playable for the recreational player (which most of my friends are)? I'm afraid, even though I like them, that I'm going to have to widen them somewhat because my sons and Billie's daughter don't make very many balls on them (very tight and hard facings) and they get easily frustrated when they think they made a good shot and the table plays the tom toms back to them. I don't mind widening them out, but where, in your opinions, should I be with them? I had one player, whom I respect vastly, say that I should be at 5" on the corners and 5 1/4" on the sides? What do the CCBers think?

Thanks in advance for your input

Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
04-26-2005, 08:30 PM
Hi,
My table is a Diamond Pro, with their Pro cut pocket. They are not considered to be shimmed pockets, the table is built for 4 &amp; 9/16 pockets. I love it, and don't find it to be too tight for others to enjoy shooting on, unless they are ball bangers, in which case, they will jaw a lot of shots, but, I kind of enjoy watching them pay a price for that anyway, LOL. I love shooting on it, and believe that is has helped my game.

Gayle in Md.

Popcorn
04-26-2005, 08:47 PM
If the pockets are so tight they keep you from being to do what you are supposed to be able to do they are too tight. The game is supposed to be played a certain way within limits, to toughen the table ridiculously you aren't playing pool. What good are your skills if the equipment won't let you perform. It would be a very negative experience in my opinion. It would mess up your shot making, position play as well as confidence. You don't need tight pockets to hit the middle of the pocket, just don't play sloppy and develop good practice habits. I am speaking in general terms of course, this doesn't apply to you. I know you have good practice habits.

Cane
04-27-2005, 08:45 AM
Thank you all for your opinions. I will take them to heart... My choices today... Insulate the shop at the new house or pull my rails off and take out the shims... I still have a backache from working on the shop yesterday, so I think this will be "pull the shims" day! *S* At least I can sit in the air conditioning and do that!!!

Thank you,
Bob

Billy_Bob
04-27-2005, 08:51 AM
If you want a lot of confidence, make your pockets larger than normal.

My pockets are quadruple shimmed. Corner pockets are 3 3/4" and side pockets are 3 7/8". This has paid off for me. It certainly paid last night and the night before when I got in the money at tournaments.

My friends and I like to warm-up on my table before going to play elsewhere. Then the pockets on a regular table look like the Grand Canyon. Those things are so large, you can't miss!

I even have a couple of beginners who like to play on my table. These people are very competitive types though.

I was not sure having such tight pockets was a good idea at first. I couldn't make a ball to save my soul. But it has forced me to learn to aim very accurately.

Before shimming my pockets, I would barely make the pockets on a regular table - frequently hitting the sides of the pocket. Now my balls go into the center of the pocket with most shots on a regular table. And cheating the pocket is easy. I'll have what others would call a straight in shot, but I see that there is plently of room to hit the object ball to the side of the pocket and get the cue ball to hit the rail.

So after 9 months of having very tight pockets, my friends and I feel it is a *very* good thing for our playing.

Cane
04-27-2005, 09:11 AM
Billy Bob, I see your point, but I have another delimna. I am an instructor and teach students private lessons in my home, so maybe I'd be better off not having them quite so tight... besides, pocketting balls isn't a weakness for me. If I miss a ball, it has more to do with the gray matter between my ears than it does with my ability to pocket balls. One player, a very respected one, told me that in his opinion, one missed shot undermines confidence, regardless if it is because the pockets are super tight. One thing I sure don't want to do with a student is undermine their confidence, so I think I'm going to go ahead and widen the pockets to their original specs, which were right at the minimum BCA specs to begin with.

Later,
Bob

Popcorn
04-27-2005, 09:13 AM
I really messed up one of my tables years ago. I measured the pocket openings with the table not completely assembled not taking into account they may pull in a little more when everything is tightened up. I shimmed the pockets a little and when I finished found the pockets very small. I figured I would just use it that way but I couldn't, I had to redo the rails. The problem I found was playing full time on a table like that was no good. It is good practice for a short time to hit balls on a tight table or with something like those things that make the pocket smaller but can be removed.
Over all though it messes up your game from my experience. You start cinching balls not playing proper position and may even become nervous and start dogging it if you have a propensity towards that. My opinion is, you just want a nice fair table that lets you perform without giving you shots that were not hit well or spitting out well hit balls. Even matching up I don't care for a super tight table. If I am giving weight to a lesser player I may steer them to what I know is an easy table in the pool room. Some players think you should play weak players on tough equipment so they miss more but I disagree. An easy table may help the weaker player a little, but it turns the better player into a world beater and you can steam roll right over the weaker player.

Scott Lee
04-27-2005, 09:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> I am an instructor and teach students private lessons in my home, so maybe I'd be better off not having them quite so tight... besides, pocketting balls isn't a weakness for me. If I miss a ball, it has more to do with the gray matter between my ears than it does with my ability to pocket balls. One player, a very respected one, told me that in his opinion, one missed shot undermines confidence, regardless if it is because the pockets are super tight. One thing I sure don't want to do with a student is undermine their confidence, so I think I'm going to go ahead and widen the pockets to their original specs, which were right at the minimum BCA specs to begin with.

Later,
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

See Bob? You correctly answered your own question! LOL If for NO other reason, the table you teach your students on, should be REASONABLE...like you said, it is vital to boost their confidence. If you were the only one practicing on your table, I'd agree with you, to an extent.
But with all the different ability folks who are going to play on that table, it should be geared to them, not you!

Scott /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

cheesemouse
04-27-2005, 09:25 AM
My pool play falls on two 9 foot tables for practice. One is my own table which is an old Anniversary with hugh pockets; very nice for freewheel and full choke play. The second table is a Diamond Pro cut 9 footer which puts a premium on finer position play and knowning which position shots one should avoid when having to travel the cb with a power stroke. The Anniversary is too loose and the Diamond is at the point of unfair for some shots ex: try power stroking a frozen ob down the long rail while three railing the cb around the table. I think a properly setup table should allow one to hit this shot at full power and have the pocket except a properly hit ball. The Diamond will reject this shot a very high % of the time. I love playing on both tables as I get the best of both worlds. The best thing is that in my area of the country almost all the events are played on barboxes....LOL...tinker toy time pool...it's hard to miss a makable shot on the slop boxes if your awake......LOL

The big pockets build confidence, the tight pockets develope patience and a very thoughtful style of play.

Popcorn
04-27-2005, 09:50 AM
Good playing habits do not need a super tight table to develop. You should be hitting a pre determined part of the pocket on even the easiest shots. Most players don't have a table at home and play on public tables that may not be that tough but still have to not get in the habit of not playing sloppy. A tight table may help an undisciplined player correct this but it only applies to shot making and the game is made up of more then that. The last thing you want to do is labor over shots chinching them and not even playing position because it is all you can do to make the ball. I would use pocket liners that are removable but would not make it a habit of doing all my practice on a super tight table that plays unfair.

tateuts
04-27-2005, 10:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> If the pockets are so tight they keep you from being to do what you are supposed to be able to do they are too tight. The game is supposed to be played a certain way within limits, to toughen the table ridiculously you aren't playing pool. What good are your skills if the equipment won't let you perform. It would be a very negative experience in my opinion. It would mess up your shot making, position play as well as confidence. You don't need tight pockets to hit the middle of the pocket, just don't play sloppy and develop good practice habits. I am speaking in general terms of course, this doesn't apply to you. I know you have good practice habits. <hr /></blockquote>

I disagee with this notion. My table is now set up with 4" corners and 4 1/2 inch sides. The rubber was cut this way unshimmed, which is the way it should be done.

It's probably been six months, and my game has taken a big jump as a result of practicing on the table. I didn't realize how sloppy my game was until I started playing on tight equipment.

Large pockets are OK for recreational tables and family rooms, but for good players - forget it, they ruin your game. I couldn't think of anything worse than practicing on a table with 5" corners and 5 1/2" sides.

You have to be in dead stroke to repeatedly run out on tight tables. Now when I go to the pool room, I want to play on the tighest equipment there because I can play almost as well on a tight table as I can on a sloppy one - I am now in the habit of shooting at center pocket on every shot.

Good players benefit by practicing on tight tables - I guarantee it. Playing the ghost on a tight table is really good practice. Not only do you become more accurate in shot making, you develop little habits that improve your accuracy and become more careful and accurate in pattern and shape play.


Chris

Stretch
04-27-2005, 10:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> Billy Bob, I see your point, but I have another delimna. I am an instructor and teach students private lessons in my home, so maybe I'd be better off not having them quite so tight... besides, pocketting balls isn't a weakness for me. If I miss a ball, it has more to do with the gray matter between my ears than it does with my ability to pocket balls. One player, a very respected one, told me that in his opinion, one missed shot undermines confidence, regardless if it is because the pockets are super tight. One thing I sure don't want to do with a student is undermine their confidence, so I think I'm going to go ahead and widen the pockets to their original specs, which were right at the minimum BCA specs to begin with.

Later,
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Bob, just finished reading the thread. Good reasoning there. See? sometimes just writing it down makes things clearer, do it all the time lol.

Thought i'd comment on the confidence factor vis avi tight pockets. If they are generous it DOES increase the enjoyment of the game for developing players. Hell everybody likes to pocket balls. Then there is the confidence factor. Your friend was very right about one missed shot undermineing confidence. Think of what the pro golfers must go through when just 4 or 5 strokes makes you a winner or WAY back in the field. Blowing a shot is huge. So it's natural to question what happened after a miss. Did i lift my head? Did i poke it? Too hard with the english? Was i temporarily insane? If it were me....yes to all the above haha. But that's the trap see? Wheather it was, or wasn't dosn't matter. When players question there mechanics, or there phsyci it hinders the stroke. They start to think mechanicaly and that kills your touch, or you second guess yourself mentaly. When i miss, i just shrug it off. You have to. I don't look for a reason or excuse. Most times it makes me play even better like a wake up call. I can say ok there's my miss, now that THATS out of the way i can REALY shoot pool! St.~~what were we talking about?~~

bsmutz
04-27-2005, 10:33 AM
I'm glad you brought this up. I decided 6 months ago to buy a snooker table because I love playing snooker. My daughter was going to buy my 9' pool table, but ended up not being able to. After I got the snooker table, I started really thinking about how many people were going to want to come over and play snooker. Given how hard it is to get them to come over and get beat at pool, I started realizing that I would probably only rarely be able to get anybody to play. I do have one friend that loves snooker, but my skill level has gotten to the point where it is a no-win situation for him now. Anyway, I think I've made up my mind to go ahead and build an extra room for the snooker table and keep both. It is very frustrating when you don't play well to not be able to make balls. My son is living with us temporarily now and it only takes 4 or 5 games to frustrate him to the point where he quits. He usually only gets one or two turns at the table during a typical 8-ball game. Of course, this isn't a issue with pocket size, but I can see where he would be much more frustrated if the pocket size were smaller (mine are about an 1/8" larger than two balls). It's probably a moot point as far as this thread is concerned as you are probably well on your way to readjusting the size of your pockets.

Popcorn
04-27-2005, 10:33 AM
You want to play on a table you can't shoot a ball down the rail with any speed and it hangs or balls hit well spit out? You just want a fair table not an easy table. You don't want extremes in either direction but a good player is a good player because they have skills above lesser players. If a table is set up in a way they can't use their skills, the table is no good and although may be OK for practicing shot making for someone trying to develop better pocketing habits, it is not very good in general as a pool table. You are better off with the pocket shims that can be removed rather then ruin a good table just to practice your shot making. having said that, 4 inch pockets although pretty small are OK in my opinion as long as the pockets are cut correctly and not jarring balls that should be in the pocket. You should be able to develop good pocketing habits without the need for a crutch though. As I said in another post not everybody has the luxury of their own table and need to learn to practice properly and not be sloppy as a general rule even on the easiest shots. I think that is actually my point. I don't want people to think if they don't shim their pockets they can't develop into a player, nothing could be farther from the truth. It's not shimmed pockets, but good habits that make one a good player.

Gayle in MD
04-27-2005, 10:40 AM
You are right on the money IMO. If shots are dead center, it's a habit, and a good one. There is nothing I can't do on my Diamond, as long as the shot is executed correctly.

It is true, though, that if someone is only buying a table for fun, they might as well get bucket sized pockets. Playing on the average GC's for me, after I get in stroke, is not nearly the challenge it used to be before I had my Diamond Pro. There is no question that it has brought my game up, and made me a much more accurate shooter. As far as teaching students goes, they might just as well learn not to dog shots right from the beginning. Every shot has a perfect contact point, I don't care what you're trying to accomplish, and practicing on a table which offers no gimmies trains you to shoot without depending on just the right wobble to help the ball in. Many of the shots that I see go in when watching televised events, wouldn't go in on my table, and that's a plus, IMHO.

Gayle in Md.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Popcorn
04-27-2005, 11:16 AM
Two ladies out for the night decide to visit a local billiard room. They sit at the bar and as they order a couple of drinks over hear the conversation of some of the men standing at the other end of the bar. "Mine is 4 5/8 inches" says one guy, "4 1/4 inches is perfect for me" says another "Well all I can say is mine is 3 7/8 and I love it" says the third guy. The one girl turns to the other and says, "I think we should get out of here".

I know, I am no Jay Leno.

tateuts
04-27-2005, 11:21 AM
I agree the pocket has to be cut right. I don't like shims. My corners accept all reasonable shots and have nice firm points. The balls don't rattle deep in the pocket - they either go in or bounce off the point.

I've played on some GC's with 4 3/4 pockets and deep shelves that I consider unfair because they're not cut right and will rattle balls that easily clear the points. Usually you do a double-take because you thought you made the shot and can't believe the ball is still sitting there.

It took me years to shake off the habit of cheating the old buckets.

Chris

tateuts
04-27-2005, 11:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Two ladies out for the night decide to visit a local billiard room. They sit at the bar and as they order a couple of drinks over hear the conversation of some of the men standing at the other end of the bar. "Mine is 4 5/8 inches" says one guy, "4 1/4 inches is perfect for me" says another "Well all I can say is mine is 3 7/8 and I love it" says the third guy. The one girl turns to the other and says, "I think we should get out of here".

I know, I am no Jay Leno. <hr /></blockquote>

Your right. You're funnier than Jay Leno! Good one..

Chris

Billy_Bob
04-27-2005, 11:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> ...I am an instructor and teach students private lessons in my home, so maybe I'd be better off not having them quite so tight... <hr /></blockquote>

I agree. If I were an instructor, my table would be regulation. With my tightly shimmed pockets, my table does not play the same as a regular table. But everyone who plays on my table understands the difference and know they need to play differently on my table.

If my first experiences with pool were on a table like I have now, I don't think I would be playing pool today. It would have been too frustrating and I would have given up trying.

Popcorn
04-27-2005, 12:19 PM
Are you refering to my joke or most of my opinions.

bustah360
04-27-2005, 12:47 PM
I'm pretty sure your friend gave the measurements that you'd find on a typical pool hall table. Which, unless its the house table would be the measurement for just anyone to play on for recreation.

tateuts
04-27-2005, 12:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Are you refering to my joke or most of my opinions. <hr /></blockquote>

Your joke, of course. I like people with opinions. You have a particularly straight forward way and I look forward to reading your posts. I think you are the leader of the pack!

Chris

tateuts
04-27-2005, 01:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> You are right on the money IMO. If shots are dead center, it's a habit, and a good one. There is nothing I can't do on my Diamond, as long as the shot is executed correctly.

<hr /></blockquote>

I have not had the pleasure of playing on a Diamond, but my understanding is they play even tougher than even their tight pockets measurements would suggest.

Chris

Gayle in MD
04-27-2005, 03:05 PM
No gimmies, but a fair table, would best describe a Diamond Pro. Everyone that has ever played on it, absolutely loved it. Jim S. who posts here, is also a Diamond owner, (Pro Cut Pocket) and also SPetty owns a Diamond, can't remember her pocket size though, thinks hers is also pro cut, but I think they will tell you that it is a fair table. Also, I have had many veteran shooters here to shoot at my home, and they love it, and often remark how accurately bank shots come off the rail.

Maybe SPetty or Jim S. will see this, and add their opinions. I know many who post here have shot on SPetty's table.

Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SPetty
04-27-2005, 03:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> No gimmies, but a fair table, would best describe a Diamond Pro. Everyone that has ever played on it, absolutely loved it. ... SPetty owns a Diamond, can't remember her pocket size though, ... but I think they will tell you that it is a fair table. <hr /></blockquote>Yep, I have a Diamond Pro with pro cut pockets. I don't know their measurements, but two balls can't go in side by side in the corner pockets. I haven't had any complaints from players about the pockets, just a few about the table roll. (I'm going to have the mechanic back out before the chili cookoff to make sure it's flat and level!)

Gayle in MD
04-27-2005, 03:27 PM
4 &amp; 9/16 /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ras314
04-27-2005, 06:06 PM
SPetty,

Doesn't Spiderman or someone in the area have a good machinest level? Might be worth while to get one, they run $60 to $100 on ebay. The resolution on these things is about .005" per ft for each division. Turns out that about 1 div off level is about the mim I can detect a roll off for a very slow ball on fast cloth. Be glad to bring one if I make it to the famous chili cook off.

No table will be perfectly level by just adjusting the legs (i.e. isn't quit flat) so I just level the center of the table. Once that is done and the roll off is objectable I suspect the slate needs releveling and you probably do need a good table mechanic. But I suspect you know all that.

Best thing about the Diamond pro cut pockets is they are honest. Hit inside the pocket corners will drop at almost any speed. Hit the corner at any speed and the ball won't drop. I think that is a function of the pocket side angles and the shelf depth. A GC shimmed to the same width does not play nearly as well IMO.

poolmaster
04-27-2005, 06:17 PM
Hi cane this is poolmaster. Now you know what my problem is which is pocketing balls. If I would get good at pocketing balls at regular pockets and gradually I would get good at it then I would go to a tighter table. You are right. The person that suggested that you should go to bigger pockets for your students. But once they get good at pocketing balls then go to smaller pockets. They have to crawl before they walk. If I was a student of yours that is what I would suggest to you. And maybe one day I can be a student of yours. Peace out.

Troy
04-27-2005, 07:33 PM
Of course not...

As I said in another post, when shimming, the attack angle goes bad so the very correct method (and it's expensive) done by two top table mechanics I know is to lengthen the rails. This requires also lengthening the wood backing.

Diamond tables with Pro cut pockets are built with correct attack angles and a single shim/pocket facing.

GC's can be done the same by a table mechanic who knows how to do it correctly.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr>Hit inside the pocket corners will drop at almost any speed. Hit the corner at any speed and the ball won't drop. I think that is a function of the pocket side angles and the shelf depth. A GC shimmed to the same width does not play nearly as well IMO. <hr /></blockquote>

Sid_Vicious
04-27-2005, 08:18 PM
"Many of the shots that I see go in when watching televised events, wouldn't go in on my table, and that's a plus"

AMEN! Why professionals are awarded pockets you can hit a full diamond up the long rail and still rattle it in is atrocious IMO. Heck, these people are supposed to the the creme-ala-creme. Let's see them preform, TV audience or no...sid

Gayle in MD
04-28-2005, 05:10 AM
Hi Troy,
It's my understanding that Diamonds have no shim's in the pocket. You have to let them know before they build the table if you want the pro cut pocket.
Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cane
04-28-2005, 05:56 AM
Sid, it's my understanding, and this may be wrong, that certain networks want to see RUNOUT pool on TV, therefore they require that the pockets are VERY generous. I played on a table that came from a WPBA event and the pockets on it were AT LEAST 5". You could easily hit a long shot a diamond up table on the rail and still get it in the pocket.

Everyone else. OK, shims are out. My corner pockets are now 4 9/16" and the sides are 5". That was the factory size for these pockets. You're still not going to hit a diamond up the rail and make the shot, but they are much more generous than they were before! My son and I played on it last night after I finished it, with the pockets larger (not huge, but larger) and he had a lot more fun. Actually, so did I, because he didn't get frustrated and stayed and played with me for a couple of hours.

Thanks for all the advice... great crew, this CCB bunch!!!

Bob

SPetty
04-28-2005, 06:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> ... a good machinest level? Might be worth while to get one... <hr /></blockquote>Hey ras, I bought a 12" Starret level months ago. When I first put it on the table, it turns out that it was twisted!!! When the table was installed, all they used was a little circular bubble level. But I know I need to get the mechanic back now because the head slate is perfectly level, but the other two slope away from the head slate slightly. At least I got it crosswise level! I'll make sure that it's level with my Starret level before they leave.

Troy
04-28-2005, 06:48 AM
I seriously doubt the rail ends are bare rubber without one pocket facing (also known as a shim). Too much potential for damage to the rail rubber.
The reason you need to let them know before hand is so they can make the rail rubber longer with the correct attack angle and also make the wood backing longer.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Hi Troy,
It's my understanding that Diamonds have no shim's in the pocket. You have to let them know before they build the table if you want the pro cut pocket.
Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

DickLeonard
04-28-2005, 06:49 AM
Cane Joe Canton had his table with 4 1/4 corners 4 1/2 sides but it wasn't shimmed he had the rubber extended and wood screwed into the back to create a rail. Hitting facings gives a phony hit to the shot.####

Popcorn
04-28-2005, 07:15 AM
All tables play easy when first set up due to the new cloth and nice shiny balls. I don't know about the women but the men's tournaments seem to have pretty tight pockets from what you can see on TV but balls will still slide in on the new cloth. The TV lights may also add to it by drying out the table.

ras314
04-28-2005, 07:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> Hey ras, I bought a 12" Starret level months ago. When I first put it on the table, it turns out that it was twisted!!! When the table was installed, all they used was a little circular bubble level. But I know I need to get the mechanic back now because the head slate is perfectly level, but the other two slope away from the head slate slightly. At least I got it crosswise level! I'll make sure that it's level with my Starret level before they leave. <hr /></blockquote>
Sounds like you need the installers back all right, or maybe a better mechanic. One circular level level doesn't seem adequate to me. When my slate was leveled they used 12 levels at once, one on each side of each slate. Since then I think the slate itself has sagged enough to measure with the Starret. If it gets much worse I'll have to get it re leveled, trouble is the mechanic is 200 miles away and isn't cheap.

ras314
04-28-2005, 07:40 AM
Popcorn, I checked the pockets at the open last year. They seemed to be the same as mine which was ordered with Diamond's "pro cut" pockets. I had the chance to play on the WPBA tables at their US 9 ball open in one of their charity events and they seemed to be a little "easier" but not much bigger. Looked to be new cloth in both, or at least didn't show any wear.

Troy
04-28-2005, 08:29 AM
I doubt there are zero pocket facings with just the raw rail rubber ends taking the hits. A pocket facing is the same thing as a shim.
Standard is one per rail rubber end.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Cane Joe Canton had his table with 4 1/4 corners 4 1/2 sides but it wasn't shimmed he had the rubber extended and wood screwed into the back to create a rail. Hitting facings gives a phony hit to the shot.#### <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
04-28-2005, 08:31 AM
We may be discussing two different things. What I am saying is that the smaller (4 &amp; 9/16) pro cut pocket on the Diamond Pro, is not achieved by shimming the pocket. The table is built that way.

Gayle in Md.

Troy
04-28-2005, 10:02 AM
Yes, the Diamond table with Pro cut pockets is built that way from the factory. The next time the cloth is off the rails, I bet you'll see one pocket facing (or shim, same thing) on the end of each rail rubber. That's the standard.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> We may be discussing two different things. What I am saying is that the smaller (4 &amp; 9/16) pro cut pocket on the Diamond Pro, is not achieved by shimming the pocket. The table is built that way.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

tateuts
04-28-2005, 10:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> All tables play easy when first set up due to the new cloth and nice shiny balls. I don't know about the women but the men's tournaments seem to have pretty tight pockets from what you can see on TV but balls will still slide in on the new cloth. The TV lights may also add to it by drying out the table. <hr /></blockquote>

When we were at the UPA at event here at the Bicycle Club in January, they brought in a special "TV" table for the semi finals and final matches (ESPN televised Corey Deuel, Basovich and Owens). I noticed the table was breaking remarkably easy, two, three, even four balls rolling in every time. Unlike the rest of the tournament they switched to an alternate break format. I was told the special table was a new GC with corners "over 5 inches", noticibly larger than the tournament tables. Naturally, the majority of the games were run out from the break.

Chris

Popcorn
04-28-2005, 11:02 AM
If that's the case, that's not right in my opinion. I guess pool is as a whole is pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things. There are no governing bodies to be sure the game isn't tampered with people just do what they want. Well, at least the players get paid and not stiffed, I guess that's an improvement.

ras314
04-28-2005, 11:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> ...you can hit a full diamond up the long rail and still rattle it in <hr /></blockquote>
One of the Abuqerque pool halls has two GC tables with the same pocket width as the pro cut Diamond. These will spit a ball out much worse than the Diamond so I assume it has something to do with the pocket angles.

This is of the things I check on a strange table. My table will accept a ball inside the angles shown when hit at points A,B,C. Usually I line up from the first spot to the corner and check how far up the rail (B is the limit on mine) a slow rolling ball will drop.

START(
%AM5P1%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%Ea5F6%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg5G5%QJ8B0%RH1B1%S D2B2%YL5C5
%Zs4F4%[E7C7%\s3O3%]I8C5%^s3I0
)END

Those tight GC's have to be hit around C with the ob lined up 1/2 sight from the corner. And there isn't much room for the "heart" of the pocket from that angle either. Other than down the rail shots they play ok if hit softly.

DickLeonard
04-28-2005, 11:16 AM
TRoy that is right but when you tighten the table by adding two or three shims to tighten the table when you miss in the shim area the ball bounces any which way.####

Fred Agnir
04-28-2005, 01:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Hi Troy,
It's my understanding that Diamonds have no shim's in the pocket. You have to let them know before they build the table if you want the pro cut pocket.
Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>There's still a single pocket facing shim on all the cushion facings for the Diamonds.

Fred

Troy
04-28-2005, 02:56 PM
I've said the same thing over and over....
The "correct" method is to lengthen the rail rubber, etc., etc.....

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> TRoy that is right but when you tighten the table by adding two or three shims to tighten the table when you miss in the shim area the ball bounces any which way.#### <hr /></blockquote>

Troy
04-28-2005, 03:03 PM
I wonder how often it needs to be said that the extra shims create a different attack angle..... Duh... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr>One of the Abuqerque pool halls has two GC tables with the same pocket width as the pro cut Diamond. These will spit a ball out much worse than the Diamond so I assume it has something to do with the pocket angles. <hr /></blockquote>

ras314
04-28-2005, 06:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> I wonder how often it needs to be said that the extra shims create a different attack angle..... Duh... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Troy
<hr /></blockquote>
Suppose you define "attack angle" then maybe I wouldn't make such dumb posts. LOL

While you are at it explain how extra shims change this angle, even though all dimensions can be the same. Could be mutliple shims affect the rebound angle off them?

I thought it interesting that these paticular GC's with about the same corner pocket width as my Diamond (around 4 5/8) played so much different. Next time I get on these tables I will try to find out if they have extra shims or if the rails are a bit longer. I think the pocket angles (angle formed by the rail nose and the side of the pocket) are different than the Diamonds and won't change regardless of the number of shims.

I have the odd habit of wanting to know how and why things happen.

JimS
04-29-2005, 06:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Hi Troy,
It's my understanding that Diamonds have no shim's in the pocket. You have to let them know before they build the table if you want the pro cut pocket.
Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

No shims to improperly narrow the pocket. The pockets are cut narrow at the factory. But they use a facing on the end of the cushion, as I believe all tables do, and this facing material is what a shim is. Shimming a table means using multiple layers of facing material and this creates the unnatural angles in the pocket opening that Troy keeps having to point out to people.

My Diamond plays PERFECT /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif. 4 9/16" is the standard Diamond Pro corner pocket opening. That's tight but not punitive or unfair.... imo. The deep shelf is what drives me nuts! I have to hit the shots real good to get'm in the hole. I like what Buddy said when asked about playing on shimmed pockets .... something to the effect of "putting shims on doesn't move the center of the pocket". There ya go.

Gayle in MD
04-29-2005, 07:28 AM
Thank you Jim,
I really didn't realize that a facing was the same thing as a shim. When speaking with Diamond before my purchase, I knew they had told me that their pro cut pocket wasn't a shimmed pocket, and that is what stuck in my mind, that their smaller pockets didn't incorporate the problems associated with "Shimmed" pockets, (Multiple layers of shims, to create unnatural pocket angles) which was part of the discussion on this thread. My mistake, to have said, "No shims" when I should have said, they are not shimmed pockets.

Thanks you Jim, /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in Md.

Troy
04-29-2005, 08:51 AM
I've been saying forever that a pocket facing and a shim is the same thing.
Maybe now that someone elso has also said it, the fact will sink in.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>I really didn't realize that a facing was the same thing as a shim.
Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
04-29-2005, 09:22 AM
My dear friend,
The horse is dead, you can drop the club now! Read the last two posts between Jim and I, then maybe it will sink in for YOU. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Have a nice day...
Gayle in Md.

Troy
04-29-2005, 09:36 AM
I did read them my dear friend.
You're not the only person thinking facings are shims were not the same.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> My dear friend,
The horse is dead, you can drop the club now! Read the last two posts between Jim and I, then maybe it will sink in for YOU. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Have a nice day...
Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>