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PQQLK9
05-08-2005, 06:22 AM
Things that make you want to PUKE! /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

N.C. Baptist Church Votes Out Kerry Supporters

Ousted Church Members May Hire Lawyer

WAYNESVILLE, N.C. -- A pastor who led a charge to kick out nine church members who refused to support President Bush was the talk of the town Saturday in this mountain hamlet, with ousted congregants considering hiring a lawyer.

Pastor Chan Chandler greeted people at the door of tiny East Waynesville Baptist Church on Saturday evening as the church choir practiced and even welcomed them to attend services Sunday morning - if there's room inside. But he was not prepared to talk about his mixing of religion and politics.

"On the advice of counsel, I've been advised not to have any comment at this time," Chandler told The Associated Press. "We will have a statement later."

Members of the congregation said Chandler told them during last year's presidential campaign that anyone who planned to vote for Democratic nominee John Kerry needed to leave the church.

Longtime member Selma Morris, who was treasurer at the church, said Chandler's sermons remained political after Bush won re-election. This past week, his comments turned to politics again at a church gathering that ended with nine members voted out.

Morris said Saturday that some of the ousted members planned to meet with an attorney on Monday to discuss their options. "We're hoping he (the attorney) will make him leave so that the church members can come back," she said.

"This is very disturbing," said Pastor Robert Prince III, who leads the congregation at the nearby First Baptist Church. "I've been a pastor for more than 25 years, and I have never seen church members voted out for something like this."

Those who are still members did not know if the church would be open for services Sunday, or if Chandler would be in the pulpit to preach.

The 100-member East Waynesville Baptist Church sits on a bluff a short distance from downtown Waynesville, a mountain town about 125 miles northwest of Charlotte. A white steeple and stain glass windows adorn the simple brick structure, built in 1965, with a view of the mountains from the front steps.

Across the street sits the church's parsonage, a small brick ranch home with children's toys scattered in the front lawn. A small wooden sign out front reads simply "The Chandlers." No one answered the phone there on Saturday.

In the days since the nine members were ousted, many more members have reportedly left the church in protest.

"He went on and on about how he's going to bring politics up, and if we didn't agree with him, we should leave," Isaac Sutton told The News and Observer of Raleigh. "I think I deserve the right to vote for who I want to."

Sutton, a deacon who worshipped at East Waynesville Baptist Church for the past 12 years, said he and his wife were among the nine voted out.

"I've been going to this church for 25 years and I've never had a problem," Sutton's wife, Lorene, told The Associated Press on Friday. "He's young and he thinks he knows everything."

Other former members of the church declined to speak with a reporter Saturday, citing the advice of their attorney. But the furor over politics at the church was the talk of Waynesville, a community of about 9,200 residents.

"It's just an outrage for something like this to happen in America," said Heidi Jenkins, 52, as she held a garage sale at her home down the street from the church.

Prince said he noticed during the presidential campaign that more pastors made endorsements -- although not from the pulpit -- than in past years.

"It used to be that pastors would speak about the issues and not specific candidates," he said. "I think that line is being crossed."
web page (http://www.wsoctv.com/news/4463277/detail.html)

eg8r
05-09-2005, 05:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Things that make you want to PUKE! <hr /></blockquote> There are extremists on both sides. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Thank goodness they are the minority.

I guess Edwards will not be stopping by for service. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Gayle in MD
05-10-2005, 10:28 AM
This is truly disgusting. Another example of the religeous right being totally out of hand in America.

My Aunt, a devout catholic, stood up to her priest after mass during the campaign because he told the congregation to vote for Bush, reminding them that the church didn't support Kerry. I was proud of her, at eighty, she gave him a piece of her mind about the separation of church and state!

Thanks for the post... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in Md. absolute power corrupts absolutely....

catscradle
05-10-2005, 11:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> This is truly disgusting. Another example of the religeous right being totally out of hand in America.

My Aunt, a devout catholic, stood up to her priest after mass during the campaign because he told the congregation to vote for Bush, reminding them that the church didn't support Kerry. I was proud of her, at eighty, she gave him a piece of her mind about the separation of church and state!

Thanks for the post... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in Md. absolute power corrupts absolutely.... <hr /></blockquote>

While I find the minister's behaviour narrow minded, this is not a separation of church and state issue. The church and state issue is concerned with preventing the state from interferring with religion or fostering a particular religion. It is not intended to prevent a people of a particular religious leaning from lobbying for what they believe in. To prevent the church which is composed of individual citizens from expressing their official views is a violation of the citizen's rights. Your aunt was correct in taking her stand and the priest involved was probably not expressing an official view of the church, but it wasn't a separation issue.
As far as the original post goes, some of those small protestant churches are literally the minister's church, he may have had the right to throw them out (though he was in the wrong). If enough of the church members disagree with his action then he's history, but I doubt very much there is a basis for a lawsuit.
For what relevance it has to this post, I am non-religious, and apolitcal. Also I don't find the ministers behaviour disgusting, only foolish.

PQQLK9
05-10-2005, 07:05 PM
N.C. Pastor Accused Of Ousting Members Over Politics Resigns

POSTED: 9:07 pm EDT May 10, 2005
UPDATED: 9:08 pm EDT May 10, 2005

WAYNESVILLE, N.C. -- A Baptist preacher accused of running out nine congregants who refused to support President George W. Bush resigned Tuesday.

"I am resigning with gratitude in my heart for all of you, particularly those of you who love me and my family," the Rev. Chan Chandler said during a meeting at East Waynesville Baptist Church.

Congregants of the 100-member church in western North Carolina have said Chandler endorsed Bush from the pulpit during last year's presidential campaign and said that anyone who planned to vote for Democratic nominee Sen. John Kerry needed to "repent or resign."

The church members said he continued to preach about politics after Bush won re-election, culminating with a church gathering last week in which the nine members said they were ousted.

Speaking from the pulpit Tuesday night, Chandler opened the meeting with prayer before telling the gathered congregation that, "For me to remain now would only cause more hurt for me and my family."

Chandler made no mention of Bush or Kerry, saying only that the dispute was rooted in his strong feelings about abortion.

He then left with his wife and drove away from the church escorted by police. A few moments later, about 40 of his supporters -- many in tears -- came out of the church while other church members remained inside.

"I don't believe he preached politics," said Rhonda Trantham, one of Chandler's supports. "I don't believe anyone should tell a preacher not to preach what's in the Bible."

Chandler attorney John J. Pavey Jr. said the pastor has not apologized for anything he said and would continue to speak out against abortion. He said the dispute inside the church had nothing to do with politics, a contention seconded Tuesday by Chandler's supporters.

"The only thing I wanna say is that everything that's been in the press is a lie," said Misty Turner. "I have never bowed down to Chan. I've only bowed down to the Lord."

Asked if she would remain a member of East Waynesville, she said, "I'm not going to serve with the ungodly."

Chandler's resignation came a day after a national group that lobbies for church-state separation urged the Internal Revenue Service to investigate the tax-exempt status of the East Waynesville Baptist Church.

IRS rules bar clear-cut politicking by tax-exempt groups. Last October, days before Bush won a second term, the IRS said it was investigating about 60 charities and other tax-exempt groups -- about a third of them churches -- for potentially breaking rules that bar them from participating in political activity.

The outcome of those investigations is not known. The IRS is barred from naming the organizations it investigates or announcing case results.

At Sunday's service, the 33-year-old Chandler said the flap over the church members' dismissal was "a great misunderstanding" and he tried to welcome them back.

"No one has ever been voted from the membership of this church due to an individual's support or lack of support for a political party or candidate," he said in a statement.

But the dismissed members, who attended the service with their lawyer and other supporters, said there was no misunderstanding and the only way to heal the rift is for Chandler to leave.
web page (http://www.wsoctv.com/news/4474216/detail.html)

wolfdancer
05-10-2005, 07:28 PM
I don't believe he preached politics," said Rhonda Trantham, one of Chandler's supports. "I don't believe anyone should tell a preacher not to preach what's in the Bible."
that's kind of a disturbing sentence....however, I think the Rev. believed that voting John Kerry in, was a vote for pro-abortion. In that sense, his stand does stradle that line seperating religion, and politics....unless he thinks ole GWB is mentioned in the good book....I know there's a "burning bush".
I wonder if this pro-life Minister has any feelings about the lives lost due to our involvement in a war that might have been avoided,had JK been elected...
Jesse Helms would have straightened this afair out.....they never would have gotten near enough to the church, to be asked to leave.

Gayle in MD
05-11-2005, 02:37 AM
While I respect your opinion, I don't agree. I think there was definately a blurring of the line in the last election, that has the potential to chip away at our ideal in this country of separation of church and state. When men of the cloth, regardless of which religeon, pressure their congregations to vote one way or the other, and there is a religeous movement to change constitutional law, then I think we are headed in the wrong direction.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
05-11-2005, 02:52 AM
I wonder if the Black population hadn't been blocked from having their votes counted in Florida, and Al Gore had been elected, where we would be now. I heard Madeline Albright say last week that we would have gone into Afghanistan, finished the job there, gotten bin Ladden, and been out of there long ago. She said Gore would have used international pressure to end Saddams tenure, and focussed on the real threats, North Korea and Iran. There would have been no occupation of a country which never attacked us.

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
05-11-2005, 04:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
however, I think the Rev. believed that voting John Kerry in, was a vote for pro-abortion. In that sense, his stand does stradle that line seperating religion, and politics.... <hr /></blockquote> There is no line seperating religion and politics (and shouldn't this be state?) for any of us, only Congress has to follow that. That preacher can say anything he wants as long as his church does not vote him out, but he does not have to seperate religion and politics.

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if this pro-life Minister has any feelings about the lives lost due to our involvement in a war that might have been avoided,had JK been elected...
<hr /></blockquote> I am sure he mourns the loss just like any one else, however someone dying in the line of duty is much different than a baby with no choice being murdered.

eg8r

eg8r
05-11-2005, 04:07 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if the Black population hadn't been blocked from having their votes counted in Florida, and Al Gore had been elected, where we would be now. <hr /></blockquote> Wow, talk about a lie that is still floating around. This is going to become urban legend. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I heard Madeline Albright say last week that we would have gone into Afghanistan, finished the job there, gotten bin Ladden, and been out of there long ago. <hr /></blockquote>And I bet you just believed every word she said. It is just too tough to believe considering they let bin laden go plenty times before that.

[ QUOTE ]
She said Gore would have used international pressure to end Saddams tenure, and focussed on the real threats, North Korea and Iran. There would have been no occupation of a country which never attacked us.
<hr /></blockquote> There is no doubt this is the truth. What she is saying is that Gore would have done nothing, and continued pandering to the UN to do nothing.

eg8r

Qtec
05-11-2005, 06:11 AM
Hey Ed, its off topic but ,

[ QUOTE ]
The Senate unanimously approved the spending measure. The House gave final approval to the bill last week, 368 to 58.The bill provides the Defense Department nearly $76 billion on top of $25 billion already appropriated mainly for Iraq for the fiscal year that ends Sept. 30. It also contains $5 billion for foreign policy efforts, <font color="blue"> what does that mean? Bribery? /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif</font color> including $1.28 billion to construct and operate a U.S. embassy in Baghdad that will be among the world's largest <hr /></blockquote>

I reckon you could buy ALL of Bahgdad for that kind of cash. In any event, it doesnt seem they want to vacate Iraq anytime soon. What do you think? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Flip-Flop?

Q.......... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Qtec
05-11-2005, 06:25 AM
[ QUOTE ]
WAYNESVILLE, N.C., May 10 (AP) - A Baptist preacher who was accused of forcing nine members to leave his church because they refused to support President Bush said on Tuesday that he was stepping down.

"For me to remain now would only cause more hurt for me and my family," the preacher, the Rev. Chan Chandler, said as he left a meeting at East Waynesville Baptist Church.

Congregants of the 100-member church have said that Mr. Chandler endorsed Mr. Bush from the pulpit during last year's presidential campaign and said that anyone who planned to vote for the Democratic nominee, Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts, needed to "repent or resign."

<hr /></blockquote>


Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
05-11-2005, 06:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
There is no line seperating religion and politics (and shouldn't this be state?) for any of us, only Congress has to follow that. <hr /></blockquote>

Are they doing that? In zambia 1 out of every 5 adults have AIDS. Its true. The US has said it has $15 billlion to fight AIDS but it wont hand out a single condom or abortion pill. The way to combat AIDS , they say, is not to have sex????????? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Amazing. Its like saying if you want to become US Open 9ball champion, all you have to do is pot every ball! It just totally ignores facts and substitutes ideals. In the same way they are all for war so long as they and their kids are not in the firing line.

Like the Commander in Chief. LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

he did sign a form that said that he DIDNT want to go to VIETNAM, didnt he? Anybody care to contend that point?

Didnt think so. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Q.......bye...



Q

Gayle in MD
05-11-2005, 06:57 AM
If churches want to pay taxes, they can do all the politicking they want.

It was a fact that blacks in the county where the largest number of votes were not counted, gave many interviews about how they were kept from voting, intimidated, held up in line until it was too late, votes were thrown out, not counted.

Diplomacy is not pandering. Getting the rest of the world in your camp before you go to war is smart, alienating them by being arogant, is dumb.

Interesting how you move your line around. What if Gore as VP had stood on the Senate floor and told a Senator to go F**k himself. What if Hilliary had told jokes about jerking off a horse. What if Clinton had redefined the definition of torture, sactified it, and then blocked efforts to create a clear definition in the face of the resulting questions that followed.

What if Clinton had signed more death certificates in the state of Arkansas than any other Governor in the history of this country? Is that murder?

What if Clinton had been looking the other way when bin struck, and then tried to block the 9/11 investigation?

What if Hilliary had killed someone on the road in a obvious manslaughter style auto wreck, and never gone even into court over it, or even been charged with anything

What if Clinton was pandering for the spanish vote, so he turned his back on allowing illegal immigrants to cross our borders, after 9/11, so they can come over here and break our laws, and only have to serve thirty days in jail, even if they rape or attack someone, and then their country won't take them back, we have to let them go free on our streets.(Not to mention what it is costing us to pay for their emergency room visits) and once they have their anchor babies, they're home free, WELFARE, Medicare all kinds of benefits, even for college.

While it is true, bin has been a problem for some time, never before had he killed three thousand Americans, and we had him cornered in those mountains and YOU MAN BUSH is the president who hired war lords, who had been fighting with the same bunch, and relied on them to get bin, how stupid can you be? What if CLinton had done something that dumb?

Albright also said as regards Iraq, and the spreading of freedom, "I don't think other Middle East countries are looking at Iraq thinking, 'I want my country to look just like that'"

We know less about the nuclear weapons now, who has them, what kind, how many, since we have been so distracted with Iraq, than we had known throughout the whole eight years of Clinton's administration.

Neither Clinton, or Gore, or Kerry, would have gone to war on RUMORS, you're damn right!

Gayle in Md.

Qtec
05-11-2005, 07:16 AM
Gayle, calm down!
GW wasnt responsible for 9/11 .











You cant blame GW for 9/11. he was on vacation! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chopstick
05-11-2005, 07:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Hey Ed, its off topic but ,

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
The Senate unanimously approved the spending measure. The House gave final approval to the bill last week, 368 to 58.The bill provides the Defense Department nearly $76 billion on top of $25 billion already appropriated mainly for Iraq for the fiscal year that ends Sept. 30. It also contains $5 billion for foreign policy efforts, <font color="blue"> what does that mean? Bribery? /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif</font color> including $1.28 billion to construct and operate a U.S. embassy in Baghdad that will be among the world's largest <hr /></blockquote>

I reckon you could buy ALL of Bahgdad for that kind of cash. In any event, it doesnt seem they want to vacate Iraq anytime soon. What do you think? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Flip-Flop?

Q.......... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Text of H.R. 1268

DEPARTMENT OF STATE AND RELATED AGENCY
DEPARTMENT OF STATE
ADMINISTRATION OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS
DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR PROGRAMS

EMBASSY SECURITY, CONSTRUCTION, AND MAINTENANCE

For an additional amount for ‘‘Embassy Security, construction, and Maintenance’’, $592,000,000, to remain
available until expended: Provided, That the amount pro-
vided under this heading is designated as an emergency re-
quirement pursuant to section 402 of the conference report
to accompany S. Con. Res. 95 (108th Congress).

<font color="blue">There is no reference to Baghdad anywhere in this document. The $1.28 billion is for all world wide State Department expenditures through the end of 2006. This is just another example of BS in the media.</font color>

Gayle in MD
05-11-2005, 07:38 AM
Hey, I don't know why you guys always imagine me all bent out of shape when I am typing, LOL. I'm just as calm as you are when you are making your points, just a woman instead of a man, that's all, LOL.

Bush is responsible for making most everything worse since he got in there.

People, especially militant muslims, hate us more than ever.

Iraq is a mess.

school system is a mess.

Deficit is a mess

Division in the country is a mess

open borders a threat

Rice was responsible for not listening to the warnings of Richard Clarke, he tells all about it right in his book, and Bush put Rice in there. Had she listened, 9/11 might have been prevented.

Gas prices through the roof

dollar losing value

Illegals coming by the droves

we now condone torture of POW's


and where is bin L.? Mission accomplished??????????

Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

eg8r
05-11-2005, 07:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Are they doing that? In zambia 1 out of every 5 adults have AIDS. Its true. The US has said it has $15 billlion to fight AIDS but it wont hand out a single condom or abortion pill. <hr /></blockquote> What does foreign aid have to do with whether or not we as citizens are bound by Separation of Church and State?

[ QUOTE ]
Amazing. Its like saying if you want to become US Open 9ball champion, all you have to do is pot every ball! It just totally ignores facts and substitutes ideals. In the same way they are all for war so long as they and their kids are not in the firing line.
<hr /></blockquote> I don't even think you know what you are talking about. Once again, what does this have to do with citizens of the US being bound by Separation of Church and State? NOTHING! Keep to the subject matter and I will respond accordingly.

eg8r

eg8r
05-11-2005, 08:03 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If churches want to pay taxes, they can do all the politicking they want. <hr /></blockquote> Once again you are impeding free speech. They can say whatever they want, they can send letters to their congressmen, they hold press conferences, they can do whatever they want, and they don't need your permission.

At the same time, if we were to following your logic, then all the poor people should not have a voice either. I don't believe it is right.

[ QUOTE ]
It was a fact that blacks in the county where the largest number of votes were not counted, gave many interviews about how they were kept from voting, intimidated, held up in line until it was too late, votes were thrown out, not counted.
<hr /></blockquote> The only fact you have is their word. If any of them had anything of substance you would have heard about all the lawsuits. My memory might be lapsing, but I don't remember one single lawsuit that was won.

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting how you move your line around. <hr /></blockquote> Explain what you mean. What did I move around.

[ QUOTE ]
What if Clinton had signed more death certificates in the state of Arkansas than any other Governor in the history of this country? Is that murder?
<hr /></blockquote> I am not playing games with you. Play them all you want, I don't live in fantasy, and that is the game you are playing. However this mention of Clinton (note: you brought it up) is interesting, surely he did not sign as many death warrants, I believe however, he did let the majority of criminals run free when he left office. One of his star criminals was in the news a few months ago.

[ QUOTE ]
While it is true, bin has been a problem for some time, never before had he killed three thousand Americans, <hr /></blockquote> It is perfectly clear now that you have revisionist theory going on and you are changing facts on purpose to prove a dead point. If you don't remember what happened in 93, then go read some of your liberal books and see if they mention the Towers. 9/11 was his second try.

[ QUOTE ]
Albright also said as regards Iraq, and the spreading of freedom, "I don't think other Middle East countries are looking at Iraq thinking, 'I want my country to look just like that'" <hr /></blockquote> Well, your Queen knows it all and still is doing nothing. Fact is, Albright is probably correct, those other Middle East countries are run by dictators and would NEVER welcome a democracy. She is correct, and you don't even understand why.

[ QUOTE ]
We know less about the nuclear weapons now, who has them, what kind, how many, since we have been so distracted with Iraq, than we had known throughout the whole eight years of Clinton's administration.
<hr /></blockquote> What a profound statement that says nothing. If Clinton was not going to do anything about the weapons what would it matter if you knew who had them. Clinton would wait until we were attack with a nuclear weapon before he ever did anything. That must be what you are asking. You don't agree with pre-emptive attacks because we have lost 1500 soldiers (or more, I don't know the count now), however you would rather take Clinton's policy and sit and wait until millions are killed when we are attacked.

[ QUOTE ]
Neither Clinton, or Gore, or Kerry, would have gone to war on RUMORS, you're damn right! <hr /></blockquote> Nope, but Clinton did take us to war without UN approval against a country that never attacked us. Funny, I don't remember you blasting him for doing it. I don't remember hearing you blast Clinton about Somalia, and we lost plenty of soldiers there. The problem is not what has happened with Iraq, you are just jealous your buddy Clinton did not get credit. Clinton even had us in Iraq fighting.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
05-11-2005, 08:18 AM
Funny how you always b**ch that I don't answer your questions, yet you respond to my posts, and never answer my questions, LOL. Then you distort what I say, and put together a response which doesn't address anything correctly.

Tell me Ed, what did you think of Pat Robertson saying that liberal judges in this country are our greatest danger, more so than Bin, or nuclear threats, or militant muslims, and insinuating that the recent attacks on judges and their families were justified? Do you think of him as a powerful leader within the republican party?

Gayle in Md.

Qtec
05-11-2005, 08:23 AM
[ QUOTE ]
On the foreign affairs side, the measure provides $592 billion for a sprawling embassy in Baghdad, <hr /></blockquote>

Thats CBS news.
Doesnt it concern you that there is so much dis-information.

If the Embass. in Iraq cost only $50 million, would anybody be making a fuss about it? Would any reporter put his reputation against something that is on public record?
Really, can you believe anything on TV or anything the present Admin tells you? They [ the present admin.] have been wrong so many times that you would be a fool to take what they say as Gospel! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
If I had said 6 years ago that I could hijack a plane and fly aroud in US airspace for 40 mins without being challenged, you would have called me crazy!
Q

Gayle in MD
05-11-2005, 09:05 AM
Ed,
If you would read the letters of James Madison, you would find that he is very clear in his intention that church and state have perfect and complete separation, both ways.

Here are just a few lines from his letters

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiatial and civil matters is of importance, and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and government will both exist in greatest purity the less they are mixed together."

"The settled opinion here is that religion is essentially distinct from civil government and exempt from its cognizance; that a connection between them is injurious to both."

"A mutual independence is found most friendly, to practical religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity."

I do not think that our founding fathers intended that our churches take active part in our elections, and certainly no be giving mailing lists to their preferred candidates for political purposes.

Gayle in Md. Perfect and complete separation!

eg8r
05-11-2005, 09:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Tell me Ed, what did you think of Pat Robertson saying that liberal judges in this country are our greatest danger, more so than Bin, or nuclear threats, or militant muslims, and insinuating that the recent attacks on judges and their families were justified? Do you think of him as a powerful leader within the republican party?
<hr /></blockquote> Well, I am not going to respond the insinuation since this is perception and not really what was said. However, I have never disagreed that both sides have extremists and the entire party should not be judge based soley on the extremist.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think of him as a powerful leader within the republican party?
<hr /></blockquote> No.

There you go, a reply to each question (unless I missed one on accident). This is something I could only hope of ever receiving from you.

eg8r

wolfdancer
05-11-2005, 10:28 AM
I didn't question the Minister's right to speak...I was implying that he was using his religious beliefs, to make his political choice......and then impose it on the congregation??
Of course there is a distinction between the death of an unborn , and the death of a soldier.....but, would these in the line of duty, deaths been avoided, if....?
You keep trying to bring in the constitution into this.....but,my thoughts were that a congregation normally wouldn't expect it's clergy to influence their vote

eg8r
05-11-2005, 12:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't question the Minister's right to speak...I was implying that he was using his religious beliefs, to make his political choice......and then impose it on the congregation?? <hr /></blockquote> I am sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. You are correct that is what he was doing, and I don't necessarily believe that is the place for it.

[ QUOTE ]
You keep trying to bring in the constitution into this.....but,my thoughts were that a congregation normally wouldn't expect it's clergy to influence their vote <hr /></blockquote> I bring the constitution into this because it still is the preachers "right" to speak what he wants even from a pulpit. Now, if the voting members of the congregation did not agree they could meet and vote him out, but he still has that right. You are correct a congregation would not expect to hear that from the pulpit.

eg8r

highsea
05-11-2005, 01:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>....but,my thoughts were that a congregation normally wouldn't expect it's clergy to influence their vote<hr /></blockquote>Kind of like what Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and co. do everyday (At least when they are not extorting money from businesses)?

wolfdancer
05-11-2005, 04:14 PM
"Kind of like what Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and co. do everyday (At least when they are not extorting money from businesses)?"
I see your point, but it's a stretch.....and the hidden implications are that Rev Al &amp; Rev. Jesse are... Democrats
Don't underestimate either man...they may not have HAAvard degrees, may throw in a little "ghetto" language, but they
understand politics, and know how to use political power.
My Irish ancestors, at the turn of the century, could have learned a thing, or two, from them

"In times of great crisis there are two types of men: those who are overwhelmed by the crisis and those who rise up to resist the trend of events and so change the course of history. --Plinio Corręa de Oliveira"
wonder where we can place GWB in that quote?

Chopstick
05-12-2005, 05:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
Doesnt it concern you that there is so much dis-information.
<font color="blue">Yes, it does and I think it has become a sign of the times. Our appetite for self righteous indignation has grown so great that it overrides all other concerns. It no longer matters if the content of a particular item is factual or not. People will accept almost anything that will give them the opportunity to gorge themselves on negative emotions. Welcome to the United States of the Offended.</font color>

If the Embass. in Iraq cost only $50 million, would anybody be making a fuss about it? <font color="blue"> It probably won't even cost that much. But nobody wants to hear that. Do they? </font color>

Would any reporter put his reputation against something that is on public record?<font color="blue"> They do it every day. Nobody checks these guys. That requires doing something. People would rather sit on their couch and be spoon fed their so called facts.</font color>

Really, can you believe anything on TV or anything the present Admin tells you? <font color="blue"> Or anyone else for that matter, regardless of their credentials. Reporters, politicians, and soap boxing academics all have the credibility of a used car salesman, meaning no offense to pre-owned automotive marketing associates. </font color>

If I had said 6 years ago that I could hijack a plane and fly aroud in US airspace for 40 mins without being challenged, you would have called me crazy!<font color="blue">You're right. I would have. </font color>
Q <hr /></blockquote>