PDA

View Full Version : Dominant Eye



BlindPlayer
05-09-2005, 11:44 PM
I instruct at Hardtimes in Sacramento on Monday nights. I'm a firm believer, after two years of taking a hard look at myself, observing others and seeing the positive results with students, that determining one's dominant eye dertermines one's stance.

No dominant eye - use the standard 45 degree address to the cue stick.

Right handed right eye dominant - 45 degrees minus half a shoe length back on the left foot. Pulls upper body over a tad favoring the right eye.

Right handed left eye dominant - 45 degress plus move left foot half a shoe length forward. Pulls upper body over a tad favoring the left eye.

Minor adjustments may be necessary.

Obviously, the ratio of our eyes' strength (one vs. the other) can vary greatly that's why drills are necessary to determine if the chosen stance allows the player to hit dead center. An excellant one is splitting two balls that are frozen and lined up horizontal to the line of travel.

Well, I said that to say this; a BCA instructor was visiting tonight and saw me working with a lady to determine her dominant eye. He walked over to ask me what I was doing. He took issue with this basic fundamental step saying, "what works for you does not necessarily work for others". To a degree that's true.

His method is to let the player stand whichever way is comfortable and then adjust his game / aim so that it works.

Am I out to lunch on this? Did I waiste 2 years of my life agonizing over the details of how the presence of eye dominance affects stance? Was it this discovery that resurrected my game after a 6 month slump? Were students pocketing more balls and having more fun or were they just holding their mouth right?

I would love some feedback on this. It's so hard for me to believe that a BCA instructor would suggest one use a stance that is comfortable and tweek everything else to compensate in order to pocket balls.

Fran Crimi
05-10-2005, 05:25 AM
The BCA Instructor Program doesn't dictate a particular way to teach pool. Instructors are encouraged to develop their own teaching style through the guidance of the academies, so you will come across BCA Instructors with varying viewpoints.

Like the elbow drop issue, the dominant eye issue is another hotbed for dispute where BCA Instructors don't all agree.

For me, I like to know what the student's dominant eye is going into a lesson, and more importantly, if it's severely dominant. I basically agree with your stance adjustments as one of the possible options, although I don't necessarily agree with your angle choices.

My experience is that people with severely dominant eyes on either side, will have difficulty finding the center of the cue ball, regardless of their stance. Stance adjustments can help, but in most cases, I've found that they will have to retrain themselves by accepting that what they perceive as center is really right or left of center.

I have a severely dominant right eye (I'm right handed). I have to constantly remind myself that what I perceive as center is really one tip left of center, regardless of whatever stance adjustments I've made.

I also agree with you that comfort is a relative word. What's initally comfortable to a player may not be the best for them. Your comfort zone is what you're used to doing. Changing what you're used to doing will always take you out of your comfort zone for a period of time.

Fran

randyg
05-10-2005, 05:29 AM
What is the "dominent eye"? What is it used for in pool?.....SPF-randyg

Fran Crimi
05-10-2005, 05:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> What is the "dominent eye"? What is it used for in pool?.....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

I knew this was coming.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The dominant eye is the eye that grabs the visual information first. There are nerves that extend from the backs of our eyes to our brain. Some of the nerves go straight back to the brain, and some nerves criss-cross. Most of us will usually have one eye where there are more nerves that criss-cross and one eye with more nerves that go straight back to the brain. The eye with the most nerves that go straight back grabs the visual information first, which makes it the dominant eye.

As for part II of your question, I think I've already been clear on that so, Randy, why don't you just state your opinion instead of quizzing me?

Fran

Sid_Vicious
05-10-2005, 06:18 AM
That's a very good presentation of the dominant eye Fran. I personally do not focus with my dominant eye during pool but it does set my stance and orient my drop-down line for the shot, but in a subliminal way, cuz I use both eyes while shooting. Jm2c...sid

Voodoo Daddy
05-10-2005, 07:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> What is the "dominent eye"? What is it used for in pool?.....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

As for part II of your question, I think I've already been clear on that so, Randy, why don't you just state your opinion instead of quizzing me?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Cant wait for this answer...

Nostalgia
05-10-2005, 07:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> What is the "dominent eye"? What is it used for in pool?<hr /></blockquote>

Generally it's used to keep an eye out for members of the opposite sex stretching for shots /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

*ahem* Really, I think it's just something to be aware of.

I have a very, very strongly dominant left eye and a slightly lazy right eye. This can make aiming challenging sometimes. However since I know what the problem is, I can adjust for it.

I do have a fairly open stance - nowhere near the 45 degrees plus a shoe talked about above. I still get my left eye over the stick. This helps enormously with my aim. My right eye just feeds depth information. That's why we have 2, if you didn't already know. Try the old trick sometime of touching two pencil points together with one eye closed. It's a fun party game /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

-Joe

Vagabond
05-10-2005, 07:25 AM
Hi Blind Player,
My dominent eye is left eye.
Now I am legally blind in the left.What should be my stance like?
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Scott Lee
05-10-2005, 07:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr>

Cant wait for this answer... <hr /></blockquote>

Steve...Let me help! There is NO substantive effect of dominant eye on improving your pool game. The cumulative effects of a "good" stance (balanced, sturdy, and allows a 'free-swinging' stroke), a solid, repeatable pre-shot routine, a loose grip, and perfect timing, deliver the necessary elements for quick, permanent improvement.

Like Fran said...some instructors believe it dominant eye...and some don't! I'm in the latter camp, along with Randy, and a few dozen other BCA instructors.

Scott Lee

randyg
05-10-2005, 08:28 AM
Good post Fran. That's how I understand the D-eye's process also.

IMO I think we must step out of the definition of the D-eye; and take a carefull look at the everyday use of the D-eye.

The D-eye only works from eyeball to finger tips. It also is in use for a nano-second, until the other eye starts gathering info along with it. This is very usefull for depth and angles within an arms length, like picking up a coffee cup. It also stops us from going cross-eyed for a split second.

Most normal humans have binocular vision. Their eye's triangulate at about an arms length away from their eyes. This gives the human depth perception and angle caculation. The D-eye doesn't work alone past this range, both eyes try to work together.

Generally our cue shaft is 28-29 inches. The cueball and object ball lie some where further away than that.

When we drive do we steer with our D-eye? When we toss darts do we aim with our D-eye? Yes we do, but only in combination (triangulation) of both eyes.

The D-eye is only activated inside a very short range for a very short time frame. Generally not in aiming a pool shot.

Fran, I'm always open to any discussion. That doesn't mean that I think any more or any less of the participants. I just feel that the D-eye has been very mis-understood in our pool game.....Respectfully your colleague.....SPF-randyg

This should be an interesting thread.

Gayle in MD
05-10-2005, 08:37 AM
Hi there,
I just have to jump into this thread. I just attended Fran's workshop in NY where this issue of dominate eye, relative to stance, and cue position was thoroughly address by Fran and Karen Corr.

I am right handed, and am severely right eye dominate.

I have had an on-going recurring problem with missing shots by a hair. While I have some stroke issues when I shoot,until I shoot for thirty minutes or so, once I get settled down, I can get my stroke straight, but still had a situation of missing severe cut shots by a hair. This has driven me NUTS.

After Fran gave us some verbal insight on the dominate eye, and some visual and stance testing, Karen, who is also right eye dominate, helped me with adjusting my stance, cue position, and dominate eye. The results have been absolutely amazing! Although working on ones stroke is an ongoing process, if you don't have the correct stance, in concert with your positioning of the cue to the dominate eye, I can't imagine how pre shot routine, or repeatable dependable stroke,can be the end all to making shots. This explains to me atleast, why it is that we observe so many pro shooters with such a wide variation of shooting strokes and styles.

Without the correct aim, what good is a straight level sroke, preshot routine, followthrough, or any of the rest of it?

I'm just a struggling pool shooter who is addicted to the game, but If the dominate eye is a moot issue, then what the hell difference could the elbow position make? You have to aim correctly to make the shot, and that should come first, you don't look through your elbow to make a shot, LOL. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in MD.

Nostalgia
05-10-2005, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>The D-eye is only activated inside a very short range for a very short time frame. Generally not in aiming a pool shot.<hr /></blockquote>
At least for me, this is just plain not true. When I line up a shot with both eyes open, then close my dominant eye, the cue tip seems to jump about a tip left. If I close my other eye, the shot is still on line. Since the left eye is dominant, it's the one determining what the shot will "look" like. The other eye gives depth perception information.

It's the same when firing a gun or a bow. I'm left eyed and right handed, but I still shoot off my left shoulder to get my dominant eye lined up in the sights. If I don't, I can't be accurate without CLOSING the dominant eye.

-Joe

SPetty
05-10-2005, 08:58 AM
Hello Scott,

Yes, of course, as you always say, a good repeatable stroke will impove your game. But are you suggesting that eye dominance has absolutely no impact on your stance or stroke at all? No impact on your alignment or aiming at all?

Really, I'm not trying to be argumentative - just trying to understand what you're saying.

I'm just not sure what you mean when you say that you don't believe in dominant eye. I know you have quite a bit of experience working with a lot of different people. Do you believe that some people have a dominant eye? Do you believe that knowing and understanding which eye may be dominant has no place in teaching a student how to stand, align, aim and stroke?

Although it may be true that a few dozen BCA instructors don't believe in dominant eye, there are hundreds if not thousands of pool players who do believe that it makes a difference in their stance, their alignment, their aiming and their stroke. When you dismiss it as something that doesn't matter, it sounds like you're thinking that people who do believe it matters are being stupid or silly for believing that.

Again, really, I hope this doesn't sound argumentative as it really isn't intended to be. It's just that I've heard you and Randy say before that it doesn't matter, and I don't think I understand what is meant by that.

Gayle in MD
05-10-2005, 09:38 AM
Hi Randy,
All due respect, having experienced what I have just experienced, you could never convince me that dominate eye doesn't affect the correctness of ones aim, particularly for long cut shots, and the farther away the shot, the greater the importance of aiming with your dominate eye, cue and stance properly alligned. This is not an opinion on my part, it is something that I have personally experienced and truly, I don't see how you can say that this issue is not just as important, if not more important, than where onces elbow is??????????

Karen spoke with me at length regarding the importance of adjusting ones stance, cue and eye position over the cue in lining up a shot, and I have seen for myself the amazing results.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
05-10-2005, 09:50 AM
Hi Scott, and how's it going friend.

How can you say there is no substantive effect of addressing ones dominate eye? If you're not aiming correctly, what does any of the rest of it matter?

I respect you and Randy and Fran as being great instructors, but truly, I can't understand how in the world you and Randy could possibly think that ones dominate eye is not an important issue as regards aiming of ones shot? It is the MOST important part of aiming in my experience. We don't have a whole lot of trouble determining how far away a shot is with our secondary eye, it is the dominate eye which lines up the shot with the pocket, isn't it? sure you use both eyes, but having your dominate eye right over the cuestick is essential to making the shot in my experience.

Using this more concise method of aiming has shown me amazing results, so how could it have no substantive effect?

Not trying to irritate you, but I really just don't see how you guys could really think that.

Gayle in Md.

pooltchr
05-10-2005, 10:58 AM
I gotta throw my two cents in here as well. I don't think anyone is saying D-eye doesn't exist...only that it doesn't affect your pool game. Since we use both eyes together to shoot, we should use them both to aim. I am a fair player, and don't even know which eye is dominate. It doesn't matter because I use both eyes all the time when I'm playing. I see people try to line up a shot with one eye, then shoot it with both eyes open, which I have never understood. I see better with both eyes than just one, and it doesn't matter which one is dominate. As long as you are setting up to sight down the cue the same way every time, you are going to see it the same way.
Steve

randyg
05-10-2005, 11:15 AM
Hi Gayle: I do believe in the D-eye. But it only is useful under about 30 inches. Most all shots are way beyond that range.

Probably what you just learned is where your head has to be oriented over the stick to see straight. The natural triangulation of your eyes do that for you, not the D-eye.

Every Good Instructor should spend time with their student on Alignment &amp; Aiming. Finding their proper head position is paramount. Stance, grip, elbow, head position are under the term "Mechanics".

It sounds like you were in solid hands with Fran &amp; Karen. Hope to see you this Summer.....SPF-randyg

BlindPlayer
05-10-2005, 12:08 PM
Thank you guys and gals for your response to my post. It has been very enlightening and I must add....confirming.

To be up front I prefer to instruct beginners. That's what Chuck has me do on Monday nights at Hardtimes. The more I do this the more I want to catch these youngins before they drill in the bad habits that are so hard to unlearn.

Most of the intermediate players play well - but to advance to the next level must "unlearn" a lot of bad habits and the ones that can run racks and violate all the fundamentals don't seem to want help.

Those that want to advance their game to the max should go away to an academy for observation and study from the masters.

Our simple purpose for Monday nights is to give beginners a few solid easy to understand tips to help build their initial confidence level. If they are interested in more we set a Saturday appt. for some one on one.

My game was in the dirt in early 90's and my coach observed for weeks and couldn't detect what it was. I spent hours alone evaluating the range of possibilities....and found my stance had changed and my upper body was left of where it should be due to this dominant eye principle. I'm Rt.handed Lt.eye dominant (45 degrees plus left foot forward 6")

Once I corrected my stance I was able to aim correctly (again) and evidentually run 30 in a row with eyes closed to rebuild my confidence. I guess that's why I always start a lesson with determining D.E. and it's relative stance. It helped me and has helped others.

One Monday my only pointer to this 45 year old female who has played for years (yet can't pocket 3) was D.E. vs. Stance. Came back in 15 minutes and oh the excitement the relief that her aim was fixed! Grateful was an understatement.

Still trying to improve and impart to others.

SPetty
05-10-2005, 12:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>Probably what you just learned is where your head has to be oriented over the stick to see straight. The natural triangulation of your eyes do that for you, not the D-eye.

Every Good Instructor should spend time with their student on Alignment &amp; Aiming. Finding their proper head position is paramount. <hr /></blockquote>Hi randyg,

Okay... I'm still trying to understand... I would think your eye dominance is important as to where your head has to be over the stick and in the natural triangulation of your eyes.

There's a lot of folks that believe if you have a strongly dominant left eye, that you will be more successful if you position your cue more under that dominant left eye than, say, more under your right eye. Do you agree with that, or do you think it really has no bearing? Are there successful players with strong dominant eyes that position the cue under the less dominant eye?

When finding the proper head position, is eye dominance disregarded as an indicator of where a good starting point might be?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around this one - it seems that hundreds if not thousands of pool players think that the dominant eye has some bearing on proper alignment and aiming, but it seems that a few dozen instructors don't believe it has any bearing? That just doesn't make sense to me. So I'm trying to determine if you really believe it has NO bearing, versus maybe what you're saying is that it does have some bearing, but it's not the only thing to consider?

Help!

BlindPlayer
05-10-2005, 12:12 PM
Appendage.....this D.eye thing is most critical on short shots where it makes the most difference - especially tough cut shots. On longer shots it seems to be a non-factor - reflecting previous insights on D.eye.

Thanx4Listen__g

randyg
05-10-2005, 12:33 PM
SPetty: Just for the hell of it, let's assume that the Eye Doctors know what their talking about. Ok, now with that in mind:

As long as most shots fall OUTSIDE the D-Eye range then we must be using both eyes to aim properly.

Therefore, your eyes should be positioned vertically over the line of stroke; such that what is perceived is accurate. That means: Is your cue pointing to where you see it? As long as you can sight along the line of the cue accurately, then that head position should be maintained for all shots.

That's why most all players have a slightly different head position. They all see the shot from there.

Being left eye dominate and shooting right handed or vise versa is all about sighting with both eyes accurately, not one eye.

Love ya......SPF-randyg

Fran Crimi
05-10-2005, 01:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> SPetty: Just for the hell of it, let's assume that the Eye Doctors know what their talking about. Ok, now with that in mind:

Love ya......SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> </font color> Hey Randy, do you write for the NY Times? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Here's a doctor's opinion:

"Our dominant eye is the eye that most efficiently views distance objects."

Dr. Alan N. Glazier
Optometrist <font color="blue"> </font color>

randyg
05-10-2005, 01:43 PM
Good info Fran. Does this Dr have a website?....SPF-randyg

Fran Crimi
05-10-2005, 02:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Good info Fran. Does this Dr have a website?....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Randy, I have no idea if this doctor's opinion is good information or not. But nonetheless, it's a doctor's opinion.

Here's his website:

Eye doctor (http://www.youreyesite.com/monovision.htm)

wolfdancer
05-10-2005, 02:28 PM
Randy, doing a simple experiment today of holding a marker pen in my hand, then extending my arm out in front of me....the pen does not appear to "move" when my arm is close to fully extended, and I shut either eye...I'd guess this is the point where trangular vision "kicks" in. I'm left handed,and very left eye dominant..
I found my own aiming error...after all these years of playing....was that with my stance, the cue was aimed slightly inward, across my body, while it looked straight to me. I made an aiming improvement when I adopted a more sideways stance.
My own uneducated opinion is....unless you are seeing two cueballs, your eyes will make the adjustment for you.
Maybe someone can test this dominant eye aiming out by:
resting one of those cheap pen light lazers
below your cue...have it parallel your aim line, then move your head slightly...right eye over cue, left eye over, centered....will the lazer line now seem off??? I dunno.

BlindPlayer
05-10-2005, 02:30 PM
Hey randyg......To clearify: D-eye is about ration rather than using one eye. We all aim with both eyes open just like a marksman on the rifle range. It's the ratio of strength - one vs. the other - that makes the slight tweek of alignment necessary.

One man's opinion that works for me.

DickLeonard
05-10-2005, 02:34 PM
I played right and left handed, just a little story, I mentioned to Steve Lipsky that I would play Ira@caromtv.com
when he went to school at RPI . Ira told him I was the only player he ever saw that could run a 100 balls anytime he wanted and with either hand.

I would tilt my head at maybe 45 degrees right handed and straight under my chin left handed. It was like I was aiming a gun right handed and my finger would jump to the right when I closed my eye shooting left handed. So I wasn't using the same stance for both hands.####

wolfdancer
05-10-2005, 02:42 PM
Glazier..???? what a name for an eye Doctor....the distances he mentioned were 20 ft though. I'm siding with Randy on this one, but hey, that's why they make both vanilla and chocolate ice cream...
the debate rages on....................
In the meantime Mr. blindplayer states he can shoot with his eyes closed....and demonstrates that at Hard Times
nice to see you back as an active poster....we missed you

wolfdancer
05-10-2005, 02:53 PM
"I was the only player he ever saw that could run a 100 balls anytime he wanted and with either hand.'
Yeah Dick, thanks for sharing that....makes me feel real good, since I can't run 100 balls with both hands, even with a half-dozen mulligans
What!...no mulligans in this sport.
I'd really like to be able to play off-handed, but...
I was in the Carolina's years ago, and there was a Golf match going on for some real $$. The local right-handed hot shot beat the left-handed out-of-towner, who then made some comment about the course being favored for right-handers. So the local guy bets again, grabs the left handers club, and parks a long one down the middle....I didn't stay for the second match, but....

Fran Crimi
05-10-2005, 03:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Glazier..???? what a name for an eye Doctor....the distances he mentioned were 20 ft though. I'm siding with Randy on this one, but hey, that's why they make both vanilla and chocolate ice cream...
the debate rages on....................
In the meantime Mr. blindplayer states he can shoot with his eyes closed....and demonstrates that at Hard Times
nice to see you back as an active poster....we missed you <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Thanks wolfie. It's good to see you haven't changed. Don't.

I used to teach this guy, elderly gentleman, nicest guy you want to meet. Penthouse apartment, lots of money. I asked him one day what his profession was. He said he owned a shoe mfg company. His name was Eli Footer. (Pronounced like the word 'foot'.)

You just can't make this stuff up. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

Fran Crimi
05-10-2005, 03:25 PM
I just did a search on Eli's name and this popped up. Sure enough, Eli's on the list: (Sorry for the NPR post)

Interesting names (http://www.granoff.net/names.htm)

BigRigTom
05-10-2005, 03:25 PM
Let's suppose that the dominant eye has something to do with the why you aline your stance....
What about your feet in the same regard?
Some say the forward toes should point in the direction of the target and I see many really good players who don't seem to need to do that...some even have their forward foot at a complete right angle (perpendicular) to the line of sight to the target...

Any good advise as to the proper way?

Now suppose the dominant eye has "NOTHING" to do with the stance.
Will that chance any of the advise as to the direction of the toes in the stance? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

SPetty
05-10-2005, 03:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> SPetty: ... Love ya......SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks Randy. Can you take one more? (Last one, promise...)

Of course we must be using both eyes to aim properly. I don't think the existence of a dominant eye precludes using two eyes to aim.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>Therefore, your eyes should be positioned vertically over the line of stroke; such that what is perceived is accurate.

That's why most all players have a slightly different head position.

Being left eye dominant and shooting right handed or vise versa is all about sighting with both eyes accurately, not one eye.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, definitely. Absolutely. I'd be surprised if there's anyone that thinks or is suggesting that aiming be done with just one eye.

Given that most people have their vision adjusted to 20/20, what would cause players to require slightly different head positions in order to perceive the accurate stroke? Wouldn't eye dominance play into that? That would be my guess.

Thanks for your patience!

Barbara
05-10-2005, 03:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>Given that most people have their vision adjusted to 20/20, what would cause players to require slightly different head positions in order to perceive the accurate stroke? Wouldn't eye dominance play into that? That would be my guess.

Thanks for your patience!
<hr /></blockquote>

Ooooooo!!! That's a good one!

Barbara

Gayle in MD
05-10-2005, 04:02 PM
Hi again, Randy,
Still into the subject matter, and still wondering, If when you do the eye test, that is, lining up your finger, or a circle, closing first one eye, then the other, if this is only good for short distance shots, then why would it be that the finger jump to the side would be greater from long distances than from short ones. IOW, If I make a circle, for example, with index finger and thumb, if the object is close, the side jump is smaller, from far away, it is greater. This contradicts what you are saying. To me, this proves that the dominate eye differences are greater on longer shots.

Karen, for example, holds her cue slightly to the right of her chin, and she is right eye dominate....it could be that if you are a teacher, and you do not have a severely dominate eye yourself, you may not realize how much difference is involved, since you can't see through someone else's vision...???

Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
05-10-2005, 04:47 PM
Fran, LOL....some of them are almost too fitting to be true. Others could also work, if they were in a different profession, or field of work
Miss Tinkle.........piano tuner...........urologist
Chris Moneymaker....poker player..........counterfeiter
Scott Grim..........coroner...............reaper
Learned Hand ...... Judge.................proctologist
I.Fox...............fur dealer.............sex therapist
Mr. Buckless....... Comptroller...........Buckminster's ex?
Ken Rush........... Expediter.............drug dealer
Mr. Shag........... Rug buyer.............porno star
Evelyn Figure.......Bookkeeper............"Go" pro player
Tom Slick........... oil millionaire......Exxon Valdez pilot
S. Sitwell..........sells chairs..........Prep H salesman
Alex Rodd........... Auto mechanic....... John Rigas's son
Jeff Float...........Olympic Swimmer......loan shark
Ray Roach ........... Pest Control........motel chain owner
Chris Creamer ...... Dairy farm Milker.... sperm donor
Seaman Seeman ......Sailor................donor, for twins
Tom Batters......... Bakery owner.........wife beater
Robyn Banks.........bank employee..Willie Sutton's daughter
or Evelyn figure could be an ice skater
and Tom Batters, up for an award
John Rigas is the imprisoned, former CEO of Adelphia Cable

randyg
05-10-2005, 05:07 PM
Hi Gayle: I almost always take myself out of the equation. How about Allison and Ewa with their chin over the cue. Maybe they don't have a D-eye. Better yet, let's look at Earl and Keith. They must have a domanant ear.

The most important thing in this post is: Where do you have to place your cue to see a straight line to your target? It's seems like you found yours, good job.......SPF-randyg

randyg
05-10-2005, 05:10 PM
Come on SPetty. Now I have to do some research. Don't have time right now, headed to Las Vegas.....SPF-randyg

Voodoo Daddy
05-10-2005, 06:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr>

Cant wait for this answer... <hr /></blockquote>

Steve...Let me help! There is NO substantive effect of dominant eye on improving your pool game. The cumulative effects of a "good" stance (balanced, sturdy, and allows a 'free-swinging' stroke), a solid, repeatable pre-shot routine, a loose grip, and perfect timing, deliver the necessary elements for quick, permanent improvement.

Like Fran said...some instructors believe it dominant eye...and some don't! I'm in the latter camp, along with Randy, and a few dozen other BCA instructors.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Disclaimer: I like Scott Lee as a person and this is not an attack. My knowledge is just as worthy as his so here goes:

Scott, maybe "I" can help you. "D" eye adjustments can improve a pool game and to be honest, I dont care what the several dozen instructors BCA, SPFF or any other sanctioned instructors think about it.

Depth perseption is linked to "D" eye, as in the case of Tom Brown, a great player in Florida that had one eye &lt;his "D" eye at that&gt; has no depth perseption at all. He learned to adjust to the "D" eye only to become one of the better pool players when he played.

Shall I go on? There are links to eye-hand coordination in regard to "D" eye. Any Firearm shooter &lt;skeet, target, hunter&gt; will tell you, same basic principal. My final example is a dart thrower...tosses off his/her "D" eye for a reason. By the way, dart players stroke is so similar to a pool stroke the comparison is dead on &lt;touch, body position, muscle memory, ailignment, so on&gt;. I know these things to be true because I asked questions and participated in these sports.

But I guess I dont know squat because I dont teach for a living? Gimme a break...balls in your court buddy /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif, send it!!

Scott Lee
05-10-2005, 10:02 PM
Steve...I'll just defer to Randy's answer above. We triangulate our vision with both eyes. Dominant eye has no effect outside short vision (length of arm). We'll just have to agree to disagree... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

wolfdancer
05-10-2005, 10:19 PM
By the way, dart players stroke is so similar to a pool stroke the comparison is dead on &lt;touch, body position, muscle memory, ailignment, so on&gt;.
Hey, thanks for bringing that up.....I even recently bought a Dart board, because I thought along those lines.
I'm not sold though on the D eye, being that important in pool, or darts.....I see Scott has evaded debating that with you.....
Would you expect to shoot about the same with a patch over your subordinate eye?
Would you have to make an aiming adjustment,when you switched back to using both?
Seems like there should be a definitive answer to the D eye theory, instead of all our conjecture?

Qtec
05-10-2005, 10:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Seems like there should be a definitive answer to the D eye theory, instead of all our conjecture? <hr /></blockquote>

I,m sure there is, but in order to get the right answer someone first has to ask the right question! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Qtec

Qtec
05-10-2005, 11:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Good post Fran. That's how I understand the D-eye's process also.

IMO I think we must step out of the definition of the D-eye; and take a carefull look at the everyday use of the D-eye. <font color="blue"> Why? How many times a month do people actually aim if they dont play sports?.[ ie, lining up at least two fixed points] </font color>

The D-eye only works from eyeball to finger tips. <font color="blue"> I havent heard this before. do you have any links? </font color> It also is in use for a nano-second, until the other eye starts gathering info along with it. This is very usefull for depth and angles within an arms length, like picking up a coffee cup. It also stops us from going cross-eyed for a split second. <font color="blue"> I dont see how you can have depth perception using only one eye. </font color>

Most normal humans have binocular vision. Their eye's triangulate at about an arms length away from their eyes. <font color="blue"> I dont see what this has got to do with anything! </font color> This gives the human depth perception and angle caculation. The D-eye doesn't work alone past this range, both eyes try to work together. <font color="blue"> I dont think anyone ever suggested that it did. </font color>

Generally our cue shaft is 28-29 inches. The cueball and object ball lie some where further away than that. <font color="blue"> I dont understand what your point is. </font color>

When we drive do we steer with our D-eye? When we toss darts do we aim with our D-eye? Yes we do, but only in combination (triangulation) of both eyes.

The D-eye is only activated inside a very short range for a very short time frame. Generally not in aiming a pool shot.

Fran, I'm always open to any discussion. That doesn't mean that I think any more or any less of the participants. I just feel that the D-eye has been very mis-understood in our pool game.....Respectfully your colleague.....SPF-randyg

This should be an interesting thread. <font color="blue"> I think you're right! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color> <hr /></blockquote>


usaEyes.org

"The dominant eye is the eye that looks directly at an object. The non-dominant eye is the eye that looks at an object from the side. Determining the dominant eye is actually very simple.

With the both eyes open, raise your right arm and point to an object in the distance. Anything more than about 20 feet away is ideal. Continue to look at and point at the object and cover the left eye. Did your pointing finger seem to move off the target? Continue pointing and cover your right eye. Did your pointing finger seem to move off the target with your right eye covered?

Your dominant eye is the eye you using when the pointing finger does not seem to move. Being right or left handed will not necessarily determine if you are right or left eye dominant".

It seems to me that the finger stays in place because the D-eye is the one that lines up the finger with the target.
It seems your arguement stands or falls on wether the D-eye has any effect on aiming that is more than an arms length away.

Qtec

wolfdancer
05-11-2005, 01:09 AM
Golly gee Q, I done thought we was replying to the declarative statement made by Blindplayer, that the dominant eye determines the stance.....not posed as a question however, not like "Jeopardy"
"you put yer left foot out, you put your right foot back...." it sounds more like a dance, then an aiming aid.....but he says it works, so....we're discussing that....here
I think the dominant eye isn't that important in the limited area of a pool table, least not here in the U.S., however I don't know if they use electric lights for illumination in the Netherlands, which could change the whole equation. Some other posters think opposite, and given the extensive research, the wealth of info available, about vision, about how our eyes work (and work together)..I thought that there may be somewhere, irrefutable evidence, supporting one side, or the other, of this controversy.

PQQLK9
05-11-2005, 03:01 AM
Posted on Fri, May. 06, 2005

Denise Coke arrested on cocaine charges

Associated Press

ROSEVILLE, Mich. - A woman identified by authorities as Denise Coke was arrested after a drug-sniffing dog discovered 33 pounds of cocaine in her vehicle.

Roseville police acting on a tip gave Michigan State Police the description of a vehicle allegedly containing drugs. Coke, 25, of Detroit was arrested after being pulled over for speeding Tuesday night on Interstate 696.

Coke was arraigned Wednesday on a charge of possession with intent to deliver more than 1,000 grams of cocaine, punishable by up to life in prison upon conviction. A judge set her bond at $1 million.

Roseville Police Chief Richard Heinz said the cocaine had a street value of $7 million to $8 million, but the drugs' destination was not immediately known. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

DickLeonard
05-11-2005, 06:05 AM
Wolfdancer Titanic Slim would bet on Golf either hand. I think he also would bet on pool the same way. The secret to playing pool left handed is to play all the shots that you would use the bridge on shooting righthanded, play those shooting left handed and pretty soon your developing a stroke with your left hand.

Fran Crimi
05-11-2005, 06:26 AM
Glad to hear you discovered your problem. I think what was going on with your stance was that you were stepping into the line of the shot with the center of your body as opposed to your shooting side. There's no way you'd be able to put your left side in line with the shot if your torso is in the way.

But as for being able to see a straight cue when you're down on the shot; I think that's a point of reference issue rather than a dominant eye issue. It's like trying to straighten a picture on a wall. If you have a straight edge above the picture, you can straighten it easier. It's hard to visualize what straight is without a reference. I often place my cue parallel to my student's in those situations and they immediately see that their cue isn't straight relative to their intended line of aim.

Although the stance adjustment you chose does allow your arm to be straighter without your body crowding it, my guess is that you're off-balance a bit now. You may even feel some pressure on your right shoulder at times. I think there's a better adjustment for you.

Come to NY. We'll play Winged Foot. I work my Caddies hard at Winged Foot. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'm left handed,and very left eye dominant..
I found my own aiming error...after all these years of playing....was that with my stance, the cue was aimed slightly inward, across my body, while it looked straight to me. I made an aiming improvement when I adopted a more sideways stance.
My own uneducated opinion is....unless you are seeing two cueballs, your eyes will make the adjustment for you.
Maybe someone can test this dominant eye aiming out by:
resting one of those cheap pen light lazers
below your cue...have it parallel your aim line, then move your head slightly...right eye over cue, left eye over, centered....will the lazer line now seem off??? I dunno. <hr /></blockquote>

Qtec
05-11-2005, 07:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Golly gee Q, I done thought we was replying to the declarative statement <font color="blue"> is a "declarative statement" a question? " </font color> made by Blindplayer, that the dominant eye determines the stance..... <font color="blue">I thought Fran had already answered that! </font color> not posed as a question however, not like "Jeopardy"
"you put yer left foot out, you put your right foot back...." it sounds more like a dance, then an aiming aid.....but he says it works, so....we're discussing that....here
I think the dominant eye isn't that important in the limited area of a pool table, least not here in the U.S., however I don't know if they use electric lights for illumination in the Netherlands, which could change the whole equation. Some other posters think opposite, and given the extensive research, the wealth of info available, about vision, about how our eyes work (and work together)..I thought that there may be somewhere, irrefutable evidence, supporting one side, or the other, of this controversy. <hr /></blockquote>

The real Q was posed by RandyG,
"what is ED and what does it have to do with pool?"

......and I dont think he gave an answer.

Here,s a secret for you W, [ /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif], when you see A. Fisher walk into the shot[ or dance /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif], what you see is a result, not a beginning.!
Q

Leviathan
05-11-2005, 07:25 AM
Hi, SPetty--Hope all is well with you. You write:

"Given that most people have their vision adjusted to 20/20, what would cause players to require slightly different head positions in order to perceive the accurate stroke? Wouldn't eye dominance play into that? That would be my guess."

I think that eye dominance may be an important influence on head position, but I think that overall stance is a factor too. It's my observation that open-stance players find it reasonably comfortable to face directly toward the ob, and that closed-stance players can't face directly toward the ob without assuming a difficult neck position. Uprightness of stance may have an effect also. I believe that Scott Lee has a very upright stance; he can probably see the alignment of his cue pretty well no matter how he positions his face relative to the line of his shots.

AS

BlindPlayer
05-11-2005, 07:54 AM
Hey there PQQLK9 - still trying to figure out how the cocaind story figures into this post except that being under the infuence of a foreign substance can really screw up one's vision and then all this conjecture is meaningless...ha! (just having fun w/ya).

After all the wonderful comments it's safe to say that some do not have a D-eye and then some, like me, have a very strong dominant left eye and I MUST adopt a special stance all my own to assure alignment. It's different for everyone and age plays a factor too (I'm 54) I'm sure.

I may have mentioned this before but before stroking I check my alignment by looking down - if the left side of my nostril is lined up with the right side of the cue stick I'm dead on (I close my right eye for this but shoot w/both open of course).

All in all it's a sure bet that whatever the "view" on D-eye and relative stance is an individualistic thing and the bottom line?....adopt some drills that check alignment.

There are some great drills that can be used to check if one is dead on. If one is not...time to rethink alignment. I do a basic drill before every game or tourney to check my aim and I'm sure most of you do too. Input: what drills do you use to check your alignment/aim?

BlindPlayer
05-11-2005, 08:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr>

"Given that most people have their vision adjusted to 20/20, what would cause players to require slightly different head positions in order to perceive the accurate stroke? Wouldn't eye dominance play into that? That would be my guess."
<font color="blue"> </font color> The field of 'corrective vision' can issue presciptions to correct near-sightedness and/or far-sightedness but I'm not sure it can correct D-eye to balance the two. Any facts on this? I'll tell you this - if there were a way to correct my severly dominant left eye I would be in the front of the line on Monday morning to get my prescription filled! My game might even improve. Wouldn't that be a treat? <hr /></blockquote>

Qtec
05-11-2005, 08:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Uprightness of stance may have an effect also. I believe that Scott Lee has a very upright stance; he can probably see the alignment of his cue pretty well no matter how he positions his face relative to the line of his shots.
<hr /></blockquote>


An upright stance is only effective with close shots. If you have a long shot and an upright stance , you can only have one ball in the line of sight at the same time. This is why Scott has foccused on the Qball all these years.
Basically he doesnt focus on the target because he cant. Not with an upright stance.

Q

Scott Lee
05-11-2005, 09:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
An upright stance is only effective with close shots. If you have a long shot and an upright stance , you can only have one ball in the line of sight at the same time. This is why Scott has foccused on the Qball all these years.
Basically he doesnt focus on the target because he cant. Not with an upright stance.

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Q-tec...Oh brother, this one is hilarious! Not too sure what the heck you're talking about here. Actually, imo, you can SEE the 'target' (what I presume you're referring to, as the OB) much better, with a higher stance. When down low over the shot, the CB and OB line up on the same basic 'plane', and I believe it is more difficult to "see"
the aim points between the two balls. BTW, I focus on the CB, not because of a high stance, but when the CB is more important that the OB...ALL THE TIME! Sometimes I focus on the CB on most every shot...sometimes not. Either way works...

Scott Lee

wolfdancer
05-11-2005, 10:43 AM
Titanic Slim?...not Thompson?
I've been doing some right-handed pool shooting...it's pretty bad though. I've played golf right-handed all my life...but this is a whole new ball game

wolfdancer
05-11-2005, 11:21 AM
Fran, that's a pretty thoughtful reply....I wish someone had pointed out to me, that my cue was not aligned..I would have been playing tournaments, instead of running them.Beyond 4 or 5 ft though, that misalignment would lead to a miss, which I blamed on my vision.....both eyes, not the "D"
And, you are right....since my stance was pretty square, I must have been using the center of my stance to aim...never thought about that. (that's why we pay you the big bucks though)
My new stance has improved my aim, seems like I also make a better stroke, and with a shorter bridge, I get better action on the cueball.
My very first post here, was to ask about drawing the ball, something I didn't do very well...I think you responded, and suggested I try bowling..lol..Now, at least, I have a workingman's draw, and "no" miscues....well, I still forget to chalk up occasionally.
I might be off-balance....I've been a little "off' for years now.....but I'm actually working on putting more pressure on my bridge hand.
Wow, Winged Foot.....I'd love it, and while your caddy is searching for your ball, I could be lining up my birdie putt.
In the meantime, I'm playing here, www.lewisrivergolf.com/ (http://www.lewisrivergolf.com/)
Not the most challenging course....but only 5 mi down the road, and $1750 a year for unlimited golf.

DickLeonard
05-11-2005, 11:25 AM
BigRigTom I formed a right angle with my back foot and my left foot and the cue ran parallel with the left foot. It took me two minutes to line my stance up after three years of not playing. Get a NY Daily News fold it in half and back foot on the bottom and left foot on the side walla their is your stance.####

wolfdancer
05-11-2005, 12:22 PM
"is a "declarative statement" a question? "

And they answer is " survey shows the answer is no"
What follows is the statement made by Blindplayer:

"I'm a firm believer, after two years of taking a hard look at myself, observing others and seeing the positive results with students, that determining one's dominant eye dertermines one's stance."
...which led to this discussion, and opposing views

"I thought Fran had already answered that!"
She may have, but she's a female ferChrisakes, and could change her mind, in the next five minutes.
Randy thinks ED affects your aim?

Cane
05-11-2005, 01:33 PM
OK, I kept my mouth shut on this one until I had a chance to get away from my drywall work in the shop and on the table. So... today, I did go to the table and had Billie take picutres of me lining up on shots, right and left handed, to see where my dominant eye was located... hell, it was the same place every time! Right in the socket where it belonged! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously, I had though that I lined up with my right eye (my dominant eye) down the shaft. Well, turns out, it wasn't. It didn't matter whether I was shooting right handed or left handed, the my head was pivoted about 30° to my open side in both cases, and the cue was lined up right under the tip of my nose, putting it closer to center than anywhere else when I shot.

So, I guess for me, dominant eye made no difference. Of course, even though I'm right eye dominant, I'm not right eye dependant. In other words, I don't have any visual problem or lazy eye or anything like that with my left eye. My only conclusion could be that it didn't matter where my dominant eye was located. I could run multiple balls and play acceptable position shooting either handed, with the cue basically located BETWEEN my eyes.

As for the other thing, the Upright Stance issue. I've seen some excellent players with upright stances and Scott Lee is one of them. He and I may disagree on which ball to focus on during the shot (CB or OB), but you can't disagree with the fact that he shoots a good stick, short shots or long shots. I really wish I'd learned to play more upright than I am, but I'm used to what I do, so I'll stick with it until the bones won't bend that far anymore.

Later,
Bob

Voodoo Daddy
05-11-2005, 03:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Steve...I'll just defer to Randy's answer above. We triangulate our vision with both eyes. Dominant eye has no effect outside short vision (length of arm). We'll just have to agree to disagree... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

We have disagreed before and I'm will lay odds its not the last time /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif, but I didnt wanna be defered or I would have just posed those questions to Randy. BTW, I shoot my camara and all games in stereo &lt;with both eyes fixed on target&gt; as most do with a tilt towards the "D" eye for accuracy. Oh hell, what do I know...

Leviathan
05-11-2005, 03:35 PM
Hiya Voodoo--Here's one for you. My right eye is my dominant one. When I shot iron-sighted handguns righthanded, I aimed with both eyes open and the sights aligned with my right eye. When I shot the same handguns lefty, I closed my right (dominant) eye and aligned the sights with my left eye. Closing my dominant eye when shooting lefty enabled me to get correct shoulder and wrist positions.

Hope you're getting to ride some. What a life--a bike and tarpon fishing in the Keys during the first full moon in June!

AS

BigRigTom
05-11-2005, 04:04 PM
Thanks Dick,
I know it sounds silly to some folks who don't have the problem but I sometimes find my self tending to change the way my feet are positioned and I wonder why...
Seriously, I don't do it on purpose and I have wondered if it has something to do with the particular shot and my approach to the shot but I have not been able to isolate the exact reason I find my feet positioned differently.
Maybe my higher brain function is being short circuited with all this self examination stuff...ie...elbow drop, dominant eye, focus on CB or OB, upright stance or bent over stance, breathing or not breathing, both eyes open or not, grip with thumb &amp; index finger or some other configuration etc, etc, etc /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Stretch
05-11-2005, 04:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Thanks Dick,
I know it sounds silly to some folks who don't have the problem but I sometimes find my self tending to change the way my feet are positioned and I wonder why...
Seriously, I don't do it on purpose and I have wondered if it has something to do with the particular shot and my approach to the shot but I have not been able to isolate the exact reason I find my feet positioned differently.
Maybe my higher brain function is being short circuited with all this self examination stuff...ie...elbow drop, dominant eye, focus on CB or OB, upright stance or bent over stance, breathing or not breathing, both eyes open or not, grip with thumb &amp; index finger or some other configuration etc, etc, etc /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Tom, to ease your stress /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif it's important to reolize that all that fun stuff is for the practice table. In a game you just trust and go with what you got that day. The temptation is to over think everything, or make adjustments on the fly which turn out to be MISSadjustments. But it's not easy, you have to practice trusting. Practice playing without a thought in the world. You should devote at least 60% of your practice time freewheeling like this because in a game, under pressure you will always revert to what you practice the most. If your thinking about your stroke or anything else most of the time, that is what you will do under pressure, you start thinking mechanically and that's it for touch and control. However if you practice freewheeling, rythm, timeing, feel, *most* of the time, that is what you'll fall into under pressure. St.

Voodoo Daddy
05-11-2005, 04:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Hiya Voodoo--Here's one for you. My right eye is my dominant one. When I shot iron-sighted handguns righthanded, I aimed with both eyes open and the sights aligned with my right eye.
<font color="blue">Thats called shooting in stereo, I do the same thing with guns, darts, a camara and a pool cue </font color>
When I shot the same handguns lefty, I closed my right (dominant) eye and aligned the sights with my left eye. Closing my dominant eye when shooting lefty enabled me to get correct shoulder and wrist positions.
<font color="blue"> Ok, a question of two for you. One, is your shot pattern remotely close to your right hand/"D" eye pattern? Two, can you determine wether your using the sight at all or just bore sighting {ala} DEA training? </font color>

Hope you're getting to ride some. What a life--a bike and tarpon fishing in the Keys during the first full moon in June!
<font color="blue">Sold the scooter in March but I have fished a bunch /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>
AS <hr /></blockquote>

Leviathan
05-11-2005, 06:45 PM
Voodoo--The groups I shot lefthanded were never as tight as the ones I shot righthanded, but I think that was mostly a trigger control problem. This was IPSC shooting--all rapid-fire stuff. About sighting: I was mostly a front-sight shooter with either hand. My approach was to try to develop a consistent grip, wrist position, and shoulder position; that way I could let 'em go as soon as I got the front sight on the target and count on getting good hits. Over most ranges I wasn't really aware of the rear sight. Lots of parallels with pool technique, no? IPSC was a hell of a lot of fun, but I wasn't good at it and quit the game about 10 years ago. Might try it again sometime, maybe in the Limited class.

Be good,
AS

Leviathan
05-11-2005, 07:40 PM
Q: I've thought about your comments. I believe that you're right, and that I was simply wrong when I suggested that a more upright stance makes it easier to see how one's cue is aligned with the cb. Please note that I don't join you in criticizing Scott Lee's technique, however. I gather that Scott Lee plays very well--much better than I'll ever play--and he certainly knows the game better than I'll ever know it.

Nevertheless, thanks for the helpful input! I may rethink the procedure I use to check my cue's alignment with the cb.

AS

Voodoo Daddy
05-11-2005, 08:29 PM
Good fun, shot IPSC and IDPA for awhile but my knees cant take the beating anymore. I would like to get into Fast Draw!!! An yes, tons or parallels but some here dont believe!!

Rod
05-11-2005, 08:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;



An upright stance is only effective with close shots. If you have a long shot and an upright stance , you can only have one ball in the line of sight at the same time. This is why Scott has foccused on the Qball all these years.
Basically he doesnt focus on the target because he cant. Not with an upright stance.

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Well now Q that was a mouth full. Just why is it you think an upright stance leads to looking at the c/b last? That's plain silly. What makes you think you can't be looking at the target?

Rod

Rod
05-11-2005, 09:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
When we drive do we steer with our D-eye? When we toss darts do we aim with our D-eye? Yes we do, but only in combination (triangulation) of both eyes <hr /></blockquote>

Randy, I was goning to type out a more in depth opinion but I basically agree with what you wrote. Save myself some typing. LOL The above last sentence is what I really agree with.

That being said, I think some people do need to favor their domanant eye. We can't see what they se so it's a difficult subject. I told a friend and long time BCA instructor how I aimed and got a puzzled look. He said you must be one in a thousand. I think not, you aim how you aim which includes head position.

I aim with my head tilted back which puts my domanat right eye farther back from the target. Sort of like some pro golfers, Jack Nicklaus did this. At any rate some may benefit from sighting a cue like a rifle, but i prefer both eyes.

Rod

DickLeonard
05-12-2005, 05:35 AM
Wolfdancer I am sorry I thought everyone knew Titanic Slim was really Titanic Thompson.####

randyg
05-12-2005, 05:36 AM
Rod: Well stated, thanks.

My whole issue is with teachers that make you try to aim with your D-eye. This may help or hurt in some cases. We started aiming at a very young age. Long before any knowledge of D-eye is explained to us.

At CUE-TECH we like to find out how you point at a target. If you do it accurately all the time, we never move a head position. Why would we???????? Who's going to tell Earl Strickland that he's aiming wrong because his cue is under his right ear.

Will I see you in Las Vegas?????SPF-randyg

Qtec
05-12-2005, 07:01 AM
Ok Rod, you are right. I wasnt very clear. let me qualify that statement.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;



An upright stance is effective with close shots,but if you have a long shot and an upright stance , you can only have one ball in the line of sight at the same time. This is [ probably] why Scott has foccused on the Qball all these years.
Basically he doesnt focus on the target because he cant. Not with an upright stance. <font color="blue">He has to choose. ie, he doesnt see cue, bridgehand ,tip, Qball and OB in the same line of sight. </font color>

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Well now Q that was a mouth full. Just why is it you think an upright stance leads to looking at the c/b last? That's plain silly. What makes you think you can't be looking at the target? <font color="blue"> Of course he can look at the OB ,if he wants to.

</font color>



Rod <hr /></blockquote>


Its a fact that if you stare at a point on the horizon, the brain 'sees' more under that point than above it. ie, when you get down low and all points are in your line of sight, even if you are concentrating on the OB[ ie the horizon] the brain still registers the Qb and the Q.
The brain will make the miniscule corrections in the stroke that will enable a player to pot the ball, but only if you allow it to and only if it can recive the neccessary information.
I,m sure S is a good player but I think if he had learned , from the begining, to focus on the QB, he would now be a better player.

Qtec

The D eye is not decided by the eye itself but by the brain.

Fran Crimi
05-12-2005, 07:58 AM
[ QUOTE ]
To be up front I prefer to instruct beginners. <hr /></blockquote>

This is where I think encouraging cue placement under the dominant eye really helps the student --- when teaching beginners.

To me, not saying anything about dominant eye to your beginning student would be like saying it doesn't matter if you're right or left handed, just grip the back end of the cue with the hand that feels most comfortable. Which hand do you think they'll choose? BUT believe it or not, some of them will choose their opposite hand, simply because they don't have any feel whatsoever for the game yet.

I've yet to come across an intermediate or advanced player with no eye pathologies who doesn't favor their dominant eye, even the slightest bit, in cue placement. But many beginners are visually all over the place when they get into a shooting stance. In watching their eye patterns, I've noticed their eyes are darting everywhere. They're looking left, right, up, down, and their head position over the cue is more about that than the line of aim. Visually zeroing in on line of aim takes time to develop for many beginning students.

As a result, many beginners will fall into a stance that is unfavorable towards their dominant eye. This can lead to compensations which never really solve the problem and cause a great amount of frustration in the player.

Then if they wish to improve they will have to undergo the difficult process of breaking old habits.

Fran

wolfdancer
05-12-2005, 08:49 AM
I heard of Amarillo Slim, and know they were friends, but didn't know he was also "slim"
Here's something from "his" site:
Before Titanic Thompson even set foot on a golf course, he tried to make sure he always had what he called a “skillful advantage.”

Now, you too can have a “skillful advantage” with the new Titanic ThompsonÔ golf ball, specifically designed for putting.

We selected an unbranded, 2-piece, tournament quality golf ball, placed our distinctive Titanic Thompson logo on it—**and made it our own. And, it might just be the most revolutionary golf ball ever introduced.

Why revolutionary?

We admit the new Titanic ThompsonÔ golf ball won’t go any further. Or, any straighter. Or, do any technical thing better than any other golf ball. In fact, we don’t even recommend you hit it off the tee or on the fairways. Why mess it up, because who knows? It might be a collector’s item some day.

But here’s the thing.

Each and every Titanic ThompsonÔ golf ball is truly revolutionary because each ball we offer is first selected by reclusive spiritualist, Eeba Shabeeba, at what he senses is that particular ball’s most receptive moment in the space/time continuum relating to the absorption of positive psychic influence.

Then, at that precise moment (usually after he reads the morning paper, has a cup of coffee and makes a few phone calls) Eeba Shabeeba personally takes those elite balls into his ultra-private, super-secret, psychic meditation room and carefully passes each ball through his psychically charged, horrendously forceful, “funnel of hope.” After that positive, psychic bombardment, each ball absorbs what he calls, a “permanent hopeful aura.”

Now that is what anyone would call a “skillful advantage.”

Through Eeba Shabeeba ‘s mystical and esoteric process, we believe we have moved our Titanic ThompsonÔ golf ball to the next, higher realm. The realm of the spiritual. The realm of mystical hope.

Maybe better known as—mind over matter.

What you should expect when you first putt

your new Titanic ThompsonÔ golf ball.

Expect your golf partners to swallow hard, and then do a double take as they watch in disbelief as the Titanic Thompson logo on your ball rolls steadily and yes, almost confidently toward the hole. And, when they sense your ball has a built-in “hopeful aura”—well—that does border on being unfair.

New!

The one and only

Titanic ThompsonÔ putting ball.

AND&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;....

hrough a special arrangement with us, the reclusive spiritualist, Eeba Shabeeba, has successfully made contact with Titanic Thompson.

Mr. Shabeeba will channel any email question you may have directly to
Titanic. Any question Titanic chooses to answer, will be published on this website.

The following is the very first exchange between the reclusive Eeba Shabeeba and Titanic Thompson.


Question from Eeba Shabeeba:
Hello Titanic Thompson. Eeba Shabeeba here. The very first question I have for you today is from T. S. of Providence, RI --
“ Titanic. In one-on-one match play against Tiger Woods, how do you think you would do if you played him today?”

Answer from Titanic Thompson:
“I am a big fan of Tiger Woods. The young man has awesome physical abilities, incredible mental toughness and Hogan-like emotional composure, (except when he holes a great putt). And his confidence, well, he reminds me of myself. Now, to answer your question. In match play, I honestly do not believe that today I could beat Tiger by more than one up.....but after all, I will be 108 years old on November 30.”

Scott Lee
05-12-2005, 09:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> My whole issue is with teachers that make you try to aim with your D-eye. This may help or hurt in some cases. We started aiming at a very young age. Long before any knowledge of D-eye is explained to us.

At CUE-TECH we like to find out how you point at a target. If you do it accurately all the time, we never move a head position. Why would we???????? Who's going to tell Earl Strickland that he's aiming wrong because his cue is under his right ear.

SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Randy...Thanks for that bit of info on kids. I had not thought about it from that perspective. I do the same, about students' head positions too. As you know, the pre-shot routine, and the consistent execution of a repeatable swing (at any speed stroke), are far more important than trying to "cookie cutter" anybody. There are certain elements of the stroke that are necessary and able to be learned by anyone. Aside from that, there is much flexibility in other areas, such as how a person stands at the table.

IMO, there is way too much 'focus' on D-Eye...just as there is way too much thought about the issue of "deflection"!
Keep it simple! Too many people are looking for the 'magic bullet' (cue/tip/shaft/book/video/instructor) that will improve their game automatically overnight!

Scott

Scott Lee
05-12-2005, 10:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
Maybe better known as&amp;#8212;mind over matter.
<hr /></blockquote>

Jack...Yep, as long you don't MIND (getting screwed), it DOESN'T matter! LMAO /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

Tom_In_Cincy
05-12-2005, 10:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Too many people are looking for the 'magic bullet' (cue/tip/shaft/book/video/instructor) that will improve their game automatically overnight!
<hr /></blockquote>

And, IMO, of the 6 'magic bullets' selections, the instructor is probably the closest to being a 'magic bullet' but, only if the student takes what they have learned and apply it to the 'practice time' and then compitition.

Way too many of us 'students of the game' have learned by 'doing', experimenting and just "grinding it out" at the table.

I best definition I've ever heard for "Stroke" is'
"The fine art of throwing the cue forward"
Repeatable and Accurate

Now, aiming is a little different, if you have the best 'stroke' in the world, and can't aim properly... what good is it?

Scott Lee
05-12-2005, 10:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Now, aiming is a little different, if you have the best 'stroke' in the world, and can't aim properly... what good is it? <hr /></blockquote>

Tom...I would agree with you, in principle. However, experience shows me that FAR more potential students "believe" their inconsistency stems from perceived problems with aiming...when, in fact, their stroke is completely out of whack! LOL When taught how to develop a consistent, repeatable swing, aligned with a solid pre-shot routine, "aiming problems" seem to disappear for most of them! Still hoping to catch up with you in Sacremento one of these days! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

Troy
05-12-2005, 10:25 AM
Since I've been using TWO eyes since birth, otherwise known as BINOCULAR VISION, I don't subscribe to the dominant eye theory.

Troy

Tom_In_Cincy
05-12-2005, 10:46 AM
Just so everyone knows,

There is only one BCA Instructor authorized to practice their trade at Hard Times.

BlindPlayer may have mistakenly led everyone to believe that he is an Instructor at Hard Times Billiards. This is not the case.

BlindPlayer is just a nice man that tries to help other players by sharing what he has learned.

His only relationship to Hard Times Billiards is this is the place that he plays and interacts with other players.

Tom Suarez,
Hard Times Billiards
Tournament Director

SPetty
05-12-2005, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> Since I've been using TWO eyes since birth, otherwise known as BINOCULAR VISION, I don't subscribe to the dominant eye theory.<hr /></blockquote>Okay, maybe part of the confusion here is what is meant when you say "dominant eye theory"? What do you mean when you say "I don't subscribe to the dominant eye theory"? Is it the same thing that Scott means when he says (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=192117&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) he doesn't believe in dominant eye? (I'd ask him, oh wait - I did (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=192125&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) ask him and he didn't respond to me... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif )

What is this dominant eye theory that you and a few others don't believe?

Scott Lee
05-12-2005, 11:38 AM
Spetty...What exactly is it that you don't understand? Both Randy and I explained our views about D-Eye theory, as it relates to playing pool...NEITHER of us, in our opinion, think that the theory behind dominant eye has any relation to how well a person can play pool. Why?...because, imo, dominant eye only comes into play when looking at something close up (inside your reach). Sure, some people have a dominant eye...and for something like shooting a gun, that kind of sighting would be necessary (shooting pool is not the same). However, both of your eyes adjust to compensate for one or the other...which produces binocular vision.
Seems pretty simple to me...

As I stated in an earlier post, too many people are looking for an excuse, as to why they have problems on the pool table. As I have stated, and STATE AGAIN, more players have mechanical problems that prevent them from developing consistency, than from "perceptions" of other problems.

Scott Lee

Voodoo Daddy
05-12-2005, 12:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Spetty...What exactly is it that you don't understand? Both Randy and I explained our views about D-Eye theory, as it relates to playing pool...NEITHER of us, in our opinion, think that the theory behind dominant eye has any relation to how well a person can play pool. Why?...because, imo, dominant eye only comes into play when looking at something close up (inside your reach).

<font color="blue">Scott, thats bullsh*t and you know it. "D" eye has no relavence to up close or far away, so why state that without proof? </font color>


Sure, some people have a dominant eye...and for something like shooting a gun, that kind of sighting would be necessary (shooting pool is not the same). However, both of your eyes adjust to compensate for one or the other...which produces binocular vision.
Seems pretty simple to me...

<font color="blue">Not everyone is blessed with that ability. Its the instructors job do determine if that is a factor...as simplicity states itself. </font color>

As I stated in an earlier post, too many people are looking for an excuse, as to why they have problems on the pool table. As I have stated, and STATE AGAIN, more players have mechanical problems that prevent them from developing consistency, than from "perceptions" of other problems.

<font color="blue">Obviously, you have your opinions and AGAIN I respect that but you push way too much on mechanical problems and not nearly enough on the mental side of this game, IMO </font color>

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Scott Lee
05-12-2005, 12:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>
Although it may be true that a few dozen BCA instructors don't believe in dominant eye, there are hundreds if not thousands of pool players who do believe that it makes a difference in their stance, their alignment, their aiming and their stroke. When you dismiss it as something that doesn't matter, it sounds like you're thinking that people who do believe it matters are being stupid or silly for believing that.

Again, really, I hope this doesn't sound argumentative as it really isn't intended to be. It's just that I've heard you and Randy say before that it doesn't matter, and I don't think I understand what is meant by that.

<hr /></blockquote>

SPetty &amp; Gayle...No I don't think people who believe that their D-Eye contributes to their problems on the pool table are stupid...silly? maybe, but stupid, NO. Just look at all the people who are swayed by things they see on tv, read in a book, or read in the newspaper, which are later found to be false!

How about this one (and you subscribe to it): think about the the tens of thousands (their #'s, not mine) of Predator shafts and cues that have been sold, with the idea that THAT cue or shaft is the "CURE" for missing, when shooting with english. LOL Without a repeatable stroke, it doesn't matter what kind of cue/shaft you play with.
WITH a good stroke, will a Predator improve your game? Maybe. IMO, the jury is still out on that one! However, since imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, several other companies have jumped on the bandwagon for segmented or laminated shafts. That is called "capture the market, while the idea is still 'hot'"! Do those kinds of cues/shafts really make a sizeable difference in a person's game? Maybe. I'm not going to debate Predator et al, because I have many friends (you included) who love them and swear by them. Just not my cup of tea, and anyone who knows me, knows that! LOL

I'll end this with a quote from my good friend, and fellow instructor, Carl: "They don't know what they don't know!"
This is why there can be 'hundreds or even thousands" who believe something (D-Eye application) that is of limited use (imo) when shooting pool. Like "deflection", dominant eye is an issue that is overblown, imo, and certainly misunderstood by the majority of poolplayers (at least from the perspective of it's importance).

Scott

Scott Lee
05-12-2005, 12:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> <font color="blue">Obviously, you have your opinions and AGAIN I respect that but you push way too much on mechanical problems and not nearly enough on the mental side of this game, IMO </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Steve...Having worked with literally thousands of students, the majority of problems DO lie with mechanical and fundamental issues. For those players who do not have these problems (very few, imo), THEN, as instructors, we work on the 'mental' side of the game. Keeping calm, while you're under pressure, is probably the most common perceived 'mental' problem. For those folks, improving their consistency in their stroke, helps them achieve a higher degree of confidance, which, hopefully, will result in helping them to overcome "the nerves"! Nothing really does that better than just getting out into combat on a regular basis...be it league play, tournament play, or gambling.

Other than issues like this, do you mean strategy, when you mention the mental game? If so, then once again, I believe that you can know a tremendous amount of knowledge (strategy), but being able to come with the necessary stroke becomes the relevant issue. Without a repeatable stroke (which means you CAN hit the CB where you think you can, and you have mastered speed control), all that knowledge comes up short, when you can't pocket the OB and move the CB to close to where you want. The majority of advanced players that come to me for help already know the shots. They are looking to improve the consistency and confidance of their strokes!

Scott

Qtec
05-12-2005, 01:05 PM
"Quote Scott Lee:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spetty...What exactly is it that you don't understand? Both Randy and I explained our views about D-Eye theory, as it relates to playing pool...NEITHER of us, in our opinion, think that the theory behind dominant eye has any relation to how well a person can play pool. Why?...because, imo, dominant eye only comes into play when looking at something close up (inside your reach).

Scott, thats bullsh*t and you know it. "D" eye has no relavence to up close or far away, so why state that without proof? "

Maybe this helps.

"OCULAR DOMINANCE. A dominant or referential eye is the one which is sighted towards a target. It does not have to be the eye with the better vision, nor does it have to be allied to the dominant hand or foot. Sometimes there is no definite dominance, a condition which is often seen among dyslexics, and this can result in visual problems.

It is unwise to change a person's ocular dominance, although certain occasions may necessitate this rather drastic action. The dominant eye for distance vision (six metres upwards) may not be the same eye for intermediate or near vision (2/3 metre). If no definite dominance exists, then blurring or occluding one eye is of help.



Cross dominance (or cross laterality) is where there is a right eye/left hand or left foot dominance or vice-versa. In sports where a side-on stance is required, his condition has definite advantages - for instance, batting in cricket. In a study of PGA players, measurements were made of the golfers' driving distances, and those who were cross dominant were also the longest hitters. If cross-dominant clay-pigeon shooters sight with their dominant eye, then there will be a mis-alignment in spotting the target. Partially blurring the offending dominant eye will aid accuracy.
Failing to have a dominant eye at a certain distance can cause inaccuracy in golf. A good example is a scratch golfer whose long and short putting were fine but at about eight feet he was constantly wayward. He had his dominance checked and at eight feet there was none. Instructing him to use only one eye solved the problem.
Contrary to popular belief, it is only when addressing a stationary ball that one has to keep one's eye on it all the time (it is impossible to track a fast-moving ball continuously). If a golfer is asked to close his dominant eye while swinging his club, he may well not be able to see the ball. However, if his stance is altered, even slightly, it may ensure that his dominant eye is definitely kept on the ball with the result that he will be able to hit further and more accurately."



I would say a golf ball is further away than arms length.

Obviously still room for discussion on this subject.

Q

SPetty
05-12-2005, 01:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> What exactly is it that you don't understand? <hr /></blockquote>Obviously, I must not be understanding what you're saying in the way that you're intending me to understand it, because I just can't imagine that you're saying what I'm hearing, which is, paraphrasing, "It doesn't matter how you visually perceive things, as long as you have a good stroke!" So maybe there's an underlying misunderstanding in terminology or something.

If you have two eyes, I believe in binocular vision and that both eyes are used to focus on the balls. That's not what the discussion is.

Do you believe that some (most) people have a dominant eye? Do you believe that knowing and understanding which eye may be dominant has any place in teaching a student how to stand, align, aim and stroke?

Leviathan
05-12-2005, 01:36 PM
Fran: For what it's worth, I think you're right about all of this. Also, I'm impressed by your analytical and non-dogmatic approach to technical problems like this one. I guess the word I'm looking for is "professionalism."

AS

SPetty
05-12-2005, 01:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> How about this one (and you subscribe to it <font color="blue">No I don't</font color>): think about the the tens of thousands (their #'s, not mine) of Predator shafts and cues that have been sold, with the idea that THAT cue or shaft is the "CURE" for missing, when shooting with english. <font color="blue">In the interest of truth, I have never said that nor do I believe it.</font color>

I'm not going to debate Predator et al, because I have many friends (you included <font color="blue">I'm a friend /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font color>) who love them and swear by them. <font color="blue">Not me. I have never said I loved or swear by Predator. What you may have heard me say (and what you may have actually witnessed), is that I shoot with a Predator. Simply because it's the cue I choose to use today does not mean I love them and swear by them. Love ya! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote>

Tom_In_Cincy
05-12-2005, 01:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>
I'm not going to debate Predator et al, because I have many friends (you included <font color="blue">I'm a friend /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font color>) who love them and swear by them. <font color="blue">Not me. I have never said I loved or swear by Predator. What you may have heard me say (and what you may have actually witnessed), is that I shoot with a Predator. Simply because it's the cue I choose to use today does not mean I love them and swear by them. Love ya! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote>

Can we start a 'Predator shaft' thread.. I love it when 'Friends' start saying 'Love ya!'

SPetty
05-12-2005, 02:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>I love it when 'Friends' start saying 'Love ya!' <hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

hahahahaha Glad you liked it! I got the idea from randyg's (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=192157&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=2&amp;vc=1) response to me earlier in this thread! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

wolfdancer
05-12-2005, 02:08 PM
Q...that's an interesting post, esp the part about the dominent eye, switching at different distances??
Golf may not be the best example for explaining the dom. eye theory.
I'm left-handed, left eye dominant....but have always played right-handed....there's a slight advantage,at adress, it's usually recommended to turn your head slightly to the right, to help make a fuller backswing.....the right-eye D player would soon lose sight of the ball, with his right eye, so i'g guess that most would then reduce the head rotation, and lose a little length in their backswing....could this be why, cross-dominant golfers hit the ball farther?
I think maybe Blindplayer has a good idea...adjust the stance a tad, depending on whether your tendency is to line the cue up centered between the eyes, as I do, or favor the right, or left.....
I also think this thread has gone on ad nauseam
did you know that Cyclops was center eye dominant? Couldn't run 3 balls though, from what I read .......

Voodoo Daddy
05-12-2005, 02:11 PM
Thanks Q...I'm not the smartest guy or the greatest teacher but I do know when to stop when a debate is going no where. Info can be dug up from the depths of the internets belly and people will find a reason to stand on a certain side of the fence. The last piece of info you shared with us keeps me in my position...thank you again &lt;I was thinkin' I might popped a rivet or something, HAHAHAHA&gt;

wolfdancer
05-12-2005, 02:23 PM
He may not be authorized, nor BCA accredited....but it sounds like he's spent some time analyzing the stroke and setup, and worked on developing a teaching style.
I'd guess he's a fine instructor for beginners to intermediates, and a bonus for the room to have him there.
I have a friend that teaches in the bay area, good player himself, enjoys working with newer players, has a small following...but no room affiliation, no BCA credentials, at present. He has pointed out some of my many errors...and the price was right...free.

SpiderMan
05-12-2005, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>
Will I see you in Las Vegas?????SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Rod is never to be seen in 'Vegas. I've been asking him for years. I think he must be on some mafia hit list or something, and just doesn't want to tell us he's a marked man in 'Vegas.

SpiderMan

Scott Lee
05-12-2005, 03:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>
Do you believe that some (most) people have a dominant eye? Do you believe that knowing and understanding which eye may be dominant has any place in teaching a student how to stand, align, aim and stroke?

<hr /></blockquote>

SPetty...Do I believe most people have one eye dominant over the other? Sure. Do I think it has relevance in teaching someone how to play better? Very little...but naturally that is jmo...nuff said.

Scott

wolfdancer
05-12-2005, 03:45 PM
Well Scott, you just blew your last chance to be sponsored by any of the laminated shaft folks...maybe even Muecci...
I play with a Predator cue, because I like the hit, and the boss gave me his price on the cue. What i'm not going to like is the cost of replacing the ferrule.....but I'm buying a second shaft for $65 from a friend, so I hope that never comes up.
I'm not sure about this dominant eye business, but I did date a Dominatrix once....she was all business....well i suppose i should start a new thread to discuss that

Tom_In_Cincy
05-12-2005, 03:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
I'd guess he's a fine instructor for beginners to intermediates, and a bonus for the room to have him there.
<hr /></blockquote>

Wolfdancer,
I doubt this person would be considered a Bonus to Hard Times Billiards. No more than any other customer.

Troy
05-12-2005, 04:50 PM
I had a customer with a damaged Predator ferrule. I suggested he send it back to Predator for a replacement, but he wanted me to go for it.
I replaced the ferrule; he said he couldn't feel the difference and was happy.
Maybe it's hype, maybe not. I don't really know.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>I play with a Predator cue.....What i'm not going to like is the cost of replacing the ferrule.....<hr /></blockquote>

Scott Lee
05-12-2005, 07:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'm not sure about this dominant eye business, but I did date a Dominatrix once....she was all business....well i suppose i should start a new thread to discuss that <hr /></blockquote>

Jack...Yeah, but did SHE stay at a Holiday Inn last night? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif LOL Seriously, there's nothing wrong with liking the 'hit' of a Predator. I guess I just object to the aggressive marketing that they do, claiming that their product is the ANSWER to a poolplayer's prayers! LOL
I've played with Predator shafts, and several other competitors too. I just don't see the attraction! But that's how it is...you either love 'em or hate 'em! LOL
$65 is a great deal...$200 is NOT! I haven't shot with a laminated shaft yet, so I don't really know about them. I do know they've been around for many years, and haven't caught on big yet!

Scott

pooltchr
05-12-2005, 07:53 PM
Susan,
I have to agree with Scott that yes, most people probably have one "D-eye" and no, it's not particularly critical to playing pool.

It has been my experience, and probably shared by Scott, Randy, Bob and others (even Fran, I bet! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) that the single most important thing for most of our students is to help them develop the fundamental skills that can provide them with the knowledge and ability to develop a consistant repeatable stroke. Without that, all the knowledge of D-eye, squirt/throw/deflection. back hand english, and any number of topics that typically are discussed here are virtually useless. The things we try to teach students start with the fundamentals. That is the foundation of a good game. None of the rest can do you any good without a solid foundation. I have heard Randy say that many great players who come to him for help find the improvement comes from focusing on the basics. I have had students who were very good players but didn't feel they had the consistancy they needed or wanted. In most cases, I have been able to help them identify the problem in the basics, make the corrections and helped them improve.

Where you position your head over the cue is not nearly as important as whether or not you are in the same position every time. Starting with the same reference point on every shot allows your brain, eyes, and body to learn where to line up for the desired result.
Consistancy comes from sound fundamentals. And consistancy is what most of our students are looking for when they come to us. We all teach a lot of students at various skill levels, but until the fundamentals are solid, there isn't much point in moving on to the other areas like cue ball control or strategy.

Scott has a world of knowledge about pool to share with his students. If he spends a lot of time on certain things, it's probably because he knows that is what the student needs. How can you teach someone how to control a masse' shot if they don't have a consistant stroke to begin with?

OK, I've rambled enough. Bottom line is that we all are trying to help students become better players. Sometimes that means making sure they are walking properly before they start running.
Steve

Fran Crimi
05-12-2005, 10:27 PM
Hey, thanks so much. It means a lot.

Fran

Qtec
05-13-2005, 07:51 AM
Its looks to me that in this photo your right eye is pretty much positioned over the cue! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Dont you think?

Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif



http://members.clnk.com/caneman/Bob.jpg

Fran Crimi
05-13-2005, 08:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Wow, Winged Foot.....I'd love it, and while your caddy is searching for your ball, I could be lining up my birdie putt.
In the meantime, I'm playing here, www.lewisrivergolf.com/ (http://www.lewisrivergolf.com/)
Not the most challenging course....but only 5 mi down the road, and $1750 a year for unlimited golf. <hr /></blockquote>


Hey, that's a really beautiful place. You're lucky to have it close by. J/K about Winged Foot. I played there once and the caddy offered to pay me to never come back. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tell you what, though. If you ever come to NY, let's try Bethpage Black. You know you have to walk that course...no carts allowed. I've always wanted to get through 9 holes without crashing and burning. I tried it once in the summer and walked off after 3. LOL

I've heard they give you a list of warnings now before you sign up to play the Black. You know...the usual stuff, like "We're not responsible if you die out there," and "All clubs wrapped around trees will be promptly removed every evening."


Fran

wolfdancer
05-13-2005, 08:45 AM
he looks almost centered to me, favoring his right eye slighttly....but that's because his head is tilted slightly
if he signed up for them free pool lessons in LV...we could straighten him out in no time.

Cane
05-13-2005, 11:20 AM
wolfdancer, You're right, near centered slightly favoring the right side.

Q, if you'll look closely at the table itself, the picture is slighly tilted from level. If you rotate everything so that the table is level in the picture, then it looks more centered. It's hard to tell from a 2D photograph that wasn't take straight on. I probably have one left somewhere on disk that is straight on. I'll look for it.


Edit time... found the picture I was looking for. On the other picture, the one on my profile, that was a bad back day. You'll notice on this picture I'm much lower on the cue... The oxycodone was doing it's job for this picture! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Anyways, here is the pic with a line drawn through the center of the cueball and along the centerline of the shaft, and you can clearly see where it's coming across my head, just like wolfdancer said, nearly centered, slightly favoring the right side.

http://members.clnk.com/caneman/shot1.jpg

Later,
Bob

wolfdancer
05-13-2005, 12:57 PM
Bob, I was kidding a bit, but did think it odd that an instructor would have his head tilted. the new picture that you posted, not only has your head level, but you are lower, and it looks like the stance that I am trying to switch over to.
I don't know much about the proper mchanics of pool, but I'd guess that any tilt would impact one's aim more so, then favoring one eye or the other.

Cane
05-13-2005, 01:28 PM
I like that head height over the cue in the second picture much better than I do the one that's in the profile, but some days my back just refuses to cooperate! Can't hit the end rail on some days! /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif but the days that I can get down on the cue, I can't miss the back of the pocket it seems.

Late,
Bob

Gayle in MD
05-13-2005, 03:47 PM
Well then, if it doesn't matter over thirty inches, then I guess it wouldn't matter which eye one looked through when shooting a shot gun, right?

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
05-13-2005, 04:29 PM
Ditto.
Fran, the help that you and Karen gave to me regarding how to line up my cue in relation to my severely dominate eye has proven to me that you know your s**t girl! Thanks again...
Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in MD
05-13-2005, 04:47 PM
Hi again Randy,
I was just thinking, maybe he (Earl) is severely right eye dominate, in which case, his cue would be under his right ear, as is Karen's....
Karen' cue is to the right of her chin, which would put it under her right ear. It could be that Allison's dominate eye is not severely dominate.

I don't think any of us are saying that fundamentals are not important, only that in SOME cases, when one is dealing with a severely dominate eye, knowing that and taking it into consideration would allow one to learn the game with the individual stance and cue aliegnment that is best for THAT particular person.

As you and Scott emphasize the importance of the repeatable stroke and shot routine, for some of us, repeatable body position and cue position, designed to allow for ones dominate eye, is just as important, probably for all of us.

If you watch Karen and Allison, they step into a shot in exactly the same way everytime, positioning the head, and cue exactly the same way also.

I think that the important thing to be addressed is the word repeatable, but that it lends itself not only to the stroke, but body position, head position, cue position. One would think, therefore, if one must determine cue position, that awaremess of ones dominate eye would certainly be valuable in determining all other factors. Do you agree?

Gayle in Md.

Scott Lee
05-13-2005, 09:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I don't know much about the proper mchanics of pool,
<hr /></blockquote>

Jack...Huh? What? Did you forget what I taught you a few years ago in S.F.? I have one word for ya, buddy...Arecept!
Supposed to work wonders for memory loss! LOL

j/k...sort of /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Scott

Qtec
05-15-2005, 06:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Spetty...What exactly is it that you don't understand? <font color="blue"> ???? </font color> Both Randy and I explained our views about D-Eye theory, as it relates to playing pool...NEITHER of us, in our opinion, think that the theory behind dominant eye has any relation to how well a person can play pool. <font color="blue"> So I guess thats that then! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color> Why?...because, imo, dominant eye only comes into play when looking at something close up (inside your reach). <font color="blue"> On what do you base this assumption? Do you have any kind of scientific evidence to back this up? You might not have noticed but I did post some info on this in previous posts. </font color> Sure, some people have a dominant eye...and for something like shooting a gun, that kind of sighting would be necessary (shooting pool is not the same). <font color="blue">I would disagree. I think they are pretty similar, if not identical. </font color> However, both of your eyes adjust to compensate for one or the other...which produces binocular vision.
Seems pretty simple to me... <font color="blue"> Do you need two eyes to play pool? Or shoot a rifle? Do you need depth perception?</font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Qtec

Qtec
05-15-2005, 07:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Q...that's an interesting post, esp the part about the dominent eye, switching at different distances??
<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> I thought so! </font color>

[ QUOTE ]
did you know that Cyclops was center eye dominant? Couldn't run 3 balls though, from what I read ....... <hr /></blockquote>

I might have to disagree with you there! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif One eye might even be an advantage.

My girlfriend cant play pool to save her life. She claims that when she aims she sees double! I did a couple of D-eye tests on her and it turns out she has NO D-eye! In the test she cannot see the target when either eye is closed. What even stranger is that she has perfect vision!

Q

Qtec
05-15-2005, 07:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BlindPlayer:</font><hr> I instruct at Hardtimes in Sacramento on Monday nights. I'm a firm believer, after two years of taking a hard look at myself, observing others and seeing the positive results with students, that determining one's dominant eye dertermines one's stance.

No dominant eye - use the standard 45 degree address to the cue stick.

Right handed right eye dominant - 45 degrees minus half a shoe length back on the left foot. Pulls upper body over a tad favoring the right eye.

Right handed left eye dominant - 45 degress plus move left foot half a shoe length forward. Pulls upper body over a tad favoring the left eye.

Minor adjustments may be necessary.
<font color="blue"> In a way you are right, but your method is wrong. </font color>

Obviously, the ratio of our eyes' strength (one vs. the other) can vary greatly that's why drills are necessary to determine if the chosen stance allows the player to hit dead center. An excellant one is splitting two balls that are frozen and lined up horizontal to the line of travel.

Well, I said that to say this; a BCA instructor was visiting tonight and saw me working with a lady to determine her dominant eye. He walked over to ask me what I was doing. He took issue with this basic fundamental step saying, "what works for you does not necessarily work for others". To a degree that's true.

His method is to let the player stand whichever way is comfortable and then adjust his game / aim so that it works.

Am I out to lunch on this? Did I waiste 2 years of my life agonizing over the details of how the presence of eye dominance affects stance? Was it this discovery that resurrected my game after a 6 month slump? Were students pocketing more balls and having more fun or were they just holding their mouth right?

I would love some feedback on this. It's so hard for me to believe that a BCA instructor would suggest one use a stance that is comfortable and tweek everything else to compensate in order to pocket balls. <hr /></blockquote>

Most players will find their own natural line of sight. You really only have to make use of D-eye when they have problems aiming.
How a player stands is a result of other factors.

Qtec

Qtec
05-15-2005, 07:53 PM
Cane I was just messin also! My only point was that everybody tilts their head! Miss orthodox AF , although the cue is centered, she still favours one eye.

Q

http://www.allisonfisher.com/new-shot-4-large.jpg

nhp
05-16-2005, 01:41 AM
What I want to know is how you all define 'aiming'.

I think many people are missing the big picture when it comes to this subject. Aiming is picking a spot where you want to send the cueball. Sending the cueball to EXACTLY where you aimed is execution and alignment. Perfect your execution and alignment, and aiming becomes very simple.

Alignment and aiming are two different things. Aiming is where you want the cueball to go. Alignment is where your cuestick is placed to send the cueball where you are aiming. You can be aiming correctly but if your cue alignment is off, even slightly, the cueball wont go exactly to where you aimed.

cheesemouse
05-16-2005, 05:59 AM
TTITUBS........ZZZZZZZZZ...LOL

Mavis
05-16-2005, 06:13 AM
Has anyone considered that the object you are aiming (cue ball) IS about an arms length from the eyes when shooting. Therefore, the hit on the cueball can be off which means the shot is off.

You can't aim something that you're not lined up with.

To me the distance of the shot is not as relative as your distance from the cue ball.

Look at Allison. Head a little in front of the cue joint. AND, notice her head is right next to her shoulder. Puts her an arms length from the cue ball. Which is where dominate eye takes over according to the distractors.

Fran Crimi
05-16-2005, 06:19 AM
That's a very thought-provoking post. I think the aiming process is more complicated than you described, though. There are two main aiming points in pool, the point of contact on the ob and the point of impact on the cb. Then there is the perspective of both from a standing position and from a shooting position. That's 4 variables right there. Then there's the perception of what the cb and ob need to look like at the point of contact, usually done by a visualization process prior to shooting the shot. So I think that plenty can go wrong in just the aiming process.

Then you have the alignment process which does involve some visual aspects but is mostly done by feel. Everyone I've come across without eye pathologies want to pull their cue stick under their domiant eye, regardless of whether they are correctly perceiving the line of aim or not. I guess you can train yourself not to do that but I haven't seen any actual evidence of it on a wide scale basis. It only makes sense that if they are pulling thier cue under their dominant eye without even thinking about it, that they should position their body favorably to their dominant eye to be able to develop a feel for a straight arm swing under that eye.

Fran

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> What I want to know is how you all define 'aiming'.

I think many people are missing the big picture when it comes to this subject. Aiming is picking a spot where you want to send the cueball. Sending the cueball to EXACTLY where you aimed is execution and alignment. Perfect your execution and alignment, and aiming becomes very simple.

Alignment and aiming are two different things. Aiming is where you want the cueball to go. Alignment is where your cuestick is placed to send the cueball where you are aiming. You can be aiming correctly but if your cue alignment is off, even slightly, the cueball wont go exactly to where you aimed. <hr /></blockquote>

Mavis
05-16-2005, 09:21 AM
For anyone who has played pool seriously for even a small length of time, 90+% of misses are not a result of bad aim they are a result of mishitting the cue ball.

If your dominant eye is playing tricks with your allignment with the cue ball, evidenced by spin that you didn't mean to apply, which is very common, you'll get both unwanted spin and squirt that will cause missing.

Until you can hit the cue ball where you want to, you can not deliver it to the wanted destination. Therefore, until you can hit the cue ball where you want to, the location of the object ball is irrelevant.

Therefore, the dominant eye could have a major impact on your ability to hit the cue ball where you think you are hitting it.

BlindPlayer
05-16-2005, 01:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Just so everyone knows,

There is only one BCA Instructor authorized to practice their trade at Hard Times.

BlindPlayer may have mistakenly led everyone to believe that he is an Instructor at Hard Times Billiards. This is not the case.

BlindPlayer is just a nice man that tries to help other players by sharing what he has learned.

His only relationship to Hard Times Billiards is this is the place that he plays and interacts with other players.

Tom Suarez,
Hard Times Billiards
Tournament Director <hr /></blockquote>


*** Just to clarify: Barton Mahoney is the BCA instructor at Hardtimes Billiards.

I'm not BCA certified though am planning to do so as soon as my heart condition improves and I can stand longer.

In any case the owner of Hartimes, Chuck, as me to instruct the beginners on Monday nights. It's free for woman on that night and some of them have expressed a need to the owner and Chuck asked me to fill that need.

Chuck does not pay me....just free sodas and the joy and priviledge of sharing the basics to beginners so they don't drill in bad habits that are hard to break later on.

80% of the girls/woman on Monday nights just want to play and have fun and I leave them alone.

Step 1: I introduce myself to new arrivals and express Chuck's purpose. I take two minutes, say goodbye and, "I will check with you later to see if you wish to have some observation and pointers."

Step 2: After making 15 minute rounds doing same, I come back ask if anyone in the group is interested and I point out that, "I know you're here to have fun and I'm not here to detract from that...the first pointer takes only 2 minutes".

If any takers I cover stance.

Step 3: I make rounds and come back to the same tables again. If they are still using their same stance there is no second visit they are not interested in change.

If they are trying I ask if they are interested in pointer number two - if so we move on.

I rarely get to cover 3 basics in one 3 hour evening.

Chuck's purpose is simple. If anyone wants formal instruction we connect with Chuck for the next step - although that has not happened yet.

To be an instructor does not mean one has to be certified. I've been giving private lessons for 15 years to "get the ball rolling" on their game.

When I lived in Modesto did 2 hour shows at private parties (in homes) without doing one trick shot - just a workshop demonstrating the possibilities...and...2 hours is not enough!

Hope this settle things. If one would read the initial post there is no claim to be certified or a formal instructor.

BlindPlayer
05-16-2005, 02:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
I'd guess he's a fine instructor for beginners to intermediates, and a bonus for the room to have him there.
<hr /></blockquote>

Wolfdancer,
I doubt this person would be considered a Bonus to Hard Times Billiards. No more than any other customer. <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Tom,

Might I suggest you talk to the owner,Chuck, and get his feedback. I'd had only agreed to help him on Monday nights and just after 3 weeks he approached me regarding the positive feedback he was receiving and then.....gave me a hug.

In retrospect I did not consider the various conotations to the word 'instructor'. Maybe teacher or advisor would've been a better choice of words. I seems that to some the word I chose implies certificaction. For three years I spared with a semi-pro that taught me 3 nights a week and some Saturdays and I called him my 'coach'.

I apologize to Tom and anyone else that feels that I 'mislead' them. It won't happen again.

Admittedly, I haven't played serious pool in 10 years due to the ministries I've been involved with but in 1995 ran 30 in a row with my eyes closed, taught the sport, was invited on numerous occassions to do demonstrations at home parties, and in Kim Davenports "Championship Biliard" hall in Modesto answered 19 challengers who wanted a private match with me closing my eyes and I won 17 of those challenges.

I'm plannning to invest the time and money next summer to get my BCA certification. Barton Mahoney (the 'authorized' BCA instructor at Hard Times) has suggested his choice out of L.A. - then I can graduate from 'teacher' to 'instructor'. Thank God.

Then I can charge for my services. Currently I do not.

Tom_In_Cincy
05-16-2005, 03:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BlindPlayer:</font><hr>Hope this settle things. If one would read the initial post there is no claim to be certified or a formal instructor. <hr /></blockquote>

Mark, if you would also take the time to read the replies, you would find that no one said you 'claimed' to be a certified instructor.

nhp
05-17-2005, 01:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> TTITUBS........ZZZZZZZZZ...LOL <hr /></blockquote>

Mind filling me in on what that means? Thanks

nhp
05-17-2005, 01:35 AM
I can't really argue with you Fran, you make a great point. IMO I think perfect alignment is much harder to achieve than perfect aim. Throw perfect execution in the mix, and things get even more complicated. That's why pool is such a great game and takes years for people to get good.

cheesemouse
05-17-2005, 04:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> TTITUBS........ZZZZZZZZZ...LOL <hr /></blockquote>

Mind filling me in on what that means? Thanks <hr /></blockquote>


nhp,

This Thread Is Total Unadulterated Bull $hit......of course that is just my humble opinion....
Every aiming system reduces down to the ghostball. How you deliver the cueball to that point is subject to your unique stroke matched to your equiptment. If you want play well you better spend your time hitting balls until the process is nearly thoughtless.
What the quickest way to go from an 'A' player back down to a 'B' player?....get anul about some Mickey Mouse aiming system.
"Don't be think'n when you could be plink'n"...as grandpa you'se to say. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

mickeymouse
05-17-2005, 09:58 PM
__________________________________________________ __________

This Thread Is Total Unadulterated Bull $hit......of course that is just my humble opinion....
__________________________________________________ _________

I've read this entire thread and haven't jumped in yet because I am not that qualified to comment. I'm a rookie.

This is America and you certainly can say what you want it's one of our greatest freedoms...but...I find it interesting that (at last count) there are 125 fans of this sport that made intelligent worthwhile comments on this thread.

Therefore, if it was is 'bull' as you say it is, why have so many contributed to this thread and explored various avenues to clarify, support, question, provide analysis, pose alternatives etc. so that all could glean from this important subject? I personally learned a lot.

In the month I've been reading these posts I've only jumped in twice. This time it's because I'm incensed that someone would take an International forum to unveil his base character and expose oneself to the fact that he stands alone out of the 125....most contributors are polite.

Slam me back if you wish....professionals have tried to hurt my feelings for over 50 years and failed miserably.

PQQLK9
05-17-2005, 11:27 PM
mickeymouse, welcome to the forum but I think you are missing the point as Cheesemouse is one of the most revered and respected posters here.

Maybe its a mouse thing but the Cheese has got it goin on. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I interperted what Cheesemouse was saying as "KISS ... "Keep It Simple Stupid" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

nhp
05-18-2005, 12:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> TTITUBS........ZZZZZZZZZ...LOL <hr /></blockquote>

Mind filling me in on what that means? Thanks <hr /></blockquote>


nhp,

This Thread Is Total Unadulterated Bull $hit......of course that is just my humble opinion....
Every aiming system reduces down to the ghostball. How you deliver the cueball to that point is subject to your unique stroke matched to your equiptment. If you want play well you better spend your time hitting balls until the process is nearly thoughtless.
What the quickest way to go from an 'A' player back down to a 'B' player?....get anul about some Mickey Mouse aiming system.
"Don't be think'n when you could be plink'n"...as grandpa you'se to say. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I certainly wasn't talking about any aiming system, and I don't recall anyone else in this thread talking about aiming systems, so what are you talking about?

cheesemouse
05-18-2005, 06:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mickeymouse:</font><hr> __________________________________________________ __________

This Thread Is Total Unadulterated Bull $hit......of course that is just my humble opinion....
__________________________________________________ _________

I've read this entire thread and haven't jumped in yet because I am not that qualified to comment. I'm a rookie.

This is America and you certainly can say what you want it's one of our greatest freedoms...but...I find it interesting that (at last count) there are 125 fans of this sport that made intelligent worthwhile comments on this thread.

Therefore, if it was is 'bull' as you say it is, why have so many contributed to this thread and explored various avenues to clarify, support, question, provide analysis, pose alternatives etc. so that all could glean from this important subject? I personally learned a lot.

In the month I've been reading these posts I've only jumped in twice. This time it's because I'm incensed that someone would take an International forum to unveil his base character and expose oneself to the fact that he stands alone out of the 125....most contributors are polite.

Slam me back if you wish....professionals have tried to hurt my feelings for over 50 years and failed miserably. <hr /></blockquote>

Mickeymouse,

First off I exposed my basic character before the Internet was invented. "I am what I am". I am pleased that my rudeness has drawn you out of your hole, all are welcome here ( except for some...LOL) and their inputs valued. I encourage you to do so more often.

You have every right to disagree with my post. I commend your effort to inform/educate yourself in relation to this elegant game. I prefer (thankyou) to filter the information I recieve thru the KISS screen. When I KISS this question out the end comes GHOSTBALL. You may say "Cheesemouse, you arragant SOB, how can you be so sure?"....Imagine yourself as a complete novice/rookie who went to the best instructor in the world and you asked this question "how do I make the ball go to the pocket?" You would be best served if that instructor simply picked up the cueball(cb) and placed it next to the object ball(ob) at the spot where the contact points matched up(GHOSTBALL) and then said to you "make the cb go here". Simply elegant.

Now that you have informed/educated yourself about 'aiming' you tell me which aiming method comes to a different result...I am always willing to learn.

I have yet to see a rack run with a slide rule (opps...there's that rudeness again)

"HOW TO GET WEIGHT FROM STRANGERS"
-Cheesemouse

Qtec
05-18-2005, 07:18 AM
Let me clarify. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

You are talking about WHERE to aim. MM is talking about HOW to aim.

Two different things Cheese.

Q

cheesemouse
05-18-2005, 07:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Let me clarify. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

You are talking about WHERE to aim. MM is talking about HOW to aim.

Two different things Cheese.

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Q,

To further add to the confusion I may have intended my post for a different thread on a different forum(AZ)...hell, I don't know. It won't be the last time I pushed the wrong button on this pc...LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Cane
05-18-2005, 07:52 AM
Cheese, I'm certainly not going to slam you here, as I've been reading and enjoying your posts and humor since I've joined CCB... but, I think Q's right. This thread really has little to do with actual aiming and more to do with alignment. Whether you aim Ghost Ball, SAM, Contact point, Edge of ball, pivot, Paralell shift, rote or whatever, if a player is not properly aligned where they "see" the true path of the CB (whether that puts the cue under the dominate eye, under the chin, under the ear, or wherever), then aiming methods and systems really don't matter because the player isn't going to be able to hit a bull in the ass with a barn door.

This thread has wandered from Stance Adjustment to the "right or wrong way" to line up over the cue, to whether Blindplayer was certified, to aiming and God only knows where it's headed next. Imagine that! A thread on CCB wandering from it's original subject!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif The KISS in this instance, and pertaining to this thread, IMHO is align your body to the shot so that your head is over the cue in a position that allows the player to properly judge the path of the CB to the OB. I think we've found that it's different for everyone. Some must have their dominant eye over the cue, some must be centered over the cue, some, like me, are off center of the cue. Summary... everyone's different and different Head to Cue alignments work for different people. My conclusion, there is no WRONG way to align your head and body to the cue, there is only the way that works best for each individual. Well, let me take that back... I saw some wrong ways last night in a pool room... Kung Fu Stances, standing on the toes, terrible attempts to immitate the strokes of various top players, etc, but comfort and a good visual perspective of the shot is what is important, regardless of whether your dominant eye or your ear are over the center of the cue.

Now, being an instructor, I had to experiment. First, I know many players who shoot with their right eye directly over the cue. Well, I tried putting my dominant eye directly over the cue since this thread started. While I'm positive this works great for many players, I shot EVERYTHING off just a hair to the right when I did that. Not only that, but for my build and body shape, it was VERY uncomfortable for me, so my "somewhere between center and not" alignment works best for ME. It won't work for everyone, as I'm sure that my alignment would be very uncomfortable for those who play with their dom eye over the cue (they'd probably miss everything a hair to the left).

Anyways, I'm rambling again. Putting out more unadulterated BS! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Later,
Bob

cheesemouse
05-18-2005, 08:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> Cheese, I'm certainly not going to slam you here, as I've been reading and enjoying your posts and humor since I've joined CCB... <hr /></blockquote>

Cane,

I return your respect in kind and further expose my character by admitting that I may have not paid enough attention to where this thread started and where it had wandered. (you can't pay the rent if you can't pay attention)...I appoligize if I tested the depth of the water with both feet instead of the normal one foot...LOL

I return to my golf game for the time being where I can simply stick my finger in my mouth and stick it in the wind and feel the side the wind cools then adjust my shot accordingly......later

Fran Crimi
05-18-2005, 08:38 AM
Hey Bob,

Couple of things.

First, actually, you do favor your dominant eye. You call it off-center but it's off-center towards your dominant eye. I don't want you to misunderstand the whole idea of placing your cue under your dominant eye. It's the area anywhere left or right of the center of your nose. You're there.

Second, placing your cue under your ear is nonsense. No one who can play does that. Earl doesn't do that. His right eye pulls the information much harder than his left and he sometimes swings his cue out to the edge of his right eye. It's not under his ear. I've watched him play dozens of times. If I had a student who placed the cue under his ear, I'd change that in a hurry.

Fran

pooltchr
05-18-2005, 09:19 AM
Fran,
Judging from this picture...it sure is close to being under his ear, unless my perception is off (which certainly could be since I'm only looking with my D-eye! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif) JK....
Steve
http://www.azbilliards.com/gallery/showpicture.cfm?eventnum=47&amp;photographernum=1&amp;picn um=2656

Wally_in_Cincy
05-18-2005, 09:35 AM
http://www.eriqx.com/pictures/archives/events/partys/sluttyhalloween/2004/jenny-dominatrix.jpg

Oops. Read the title wrong.

Fran Crimi
05-18-2005, 09:35 AM
I have the same problem as Earl. With a severely dominant eye like that, if your chin starts to drop below the cue stick height, your cue stick will slide to the side of your face. And just like Earl, I will catch myself and raise my chin up a bit. The angle of the photo doesn't show the bottom of his chin, but I'm sure that's what's going on.

It's wrong to categorize Earl as playing with the cue under his ear (as if he does it all the time) and it's really really bad to say it's ok for someone else to do.

Fran

DickLeonard
05-18-2005, 09:46 AM
My favorite local player listen to Jack NickLaus and his tilted head to the right and plays pool that way and now thinks he can't see looking straight on to the cueball of course he can't play any more because of his crazy alignment.####

Fran Crimi
05-18-2005, 09:51 AM
Here's a better example of Earl.

In this photo you can see how his chin is falling below the cue height so his cue is on the side of his face. It's still under his right eye, though.

http://www.definitivesynergy.com/order/images/Earl_Strickland_cover2.jpg

Voodoo Daddy
05-18-2005, 10:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> http://www.eriqx.com/pictures/archives/events/partys/sluttyhalloween/2004/jenny-dominatrix.jpg

Oops. Read the title wrong. <hr /></blockquote>

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AH!!! Your classic Wally, welcome back.

Gayle in MD
05-18-2005, 10:51 AM
That looks a lot like Karen's cue location....
Gayle in Md...

mickeymouse
05-18-2005, 10:53 AM
Hey cheesemouse;

You are too gracious to respond to my strong language with such kindness.

My medication (legal) makes me irritable but that's no excuse. I usually do a better job of controlling myself.

IT JUST DAWNED ON ME THAT YOUR NAME IS 'cheesemouse'! What a coincidence.

Oh, since mickeymouse is afraid of ghosts can I call that ball the "phantom ball"? I can deal with phantoms...and...I tried it and it has really helped me. Not so much the contact point on the object ball (I see that clearly) but the all important contact point on the cue ball.

Thanks...almost 'the end':

m--i--c (see you real soon)- k--e--y (why? because we like you!)....m----o----u----s----eeeeeee!

Surely all of you are old enough to remember that. I sang for Walt in 1955 on opening year (I was a little tyke)...pre-muskateers. He put on a talent show on a stage just outside the gate to entertain those that were waiting in line to buy tickets. 9 a.m. till booths opened at 10 a.m. (Where was American Idol then?)

Cane
05-18-2005, 11:07 AM
Fran,
I see what you're saying, and yes, I do have the cue slightly off center of my head towards my dominant eye, however, when I shoot left handed, I'm aligned in mirror image to what is in that picture. In other words, I'm favoring my left eye, or non-dominant eye shooting left handed. I have absolutely no trouble aiming when shooting left handed and except for the lack of coordination to have as good a speed control with my left hand, I pocket the balls every bit as center pocket as I do right handed.

Under the ear... ok, you're absolutely right. If I had a student that had the cue under their ear, I'd have concerns, but for different reasons, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) than your concerns. Here's why, and this is just my opinion: If eye dominance plays an important roll in seeing the true path of the cue ball, then I'd have to look at it like this: Someone who has the cue off of the side of their face to the right of their right eye is no more off center of the cue than a player who has the cue under the center of their chin, so their actually no more out of line with their dominant eye than a "centered up" player is. Do you see where this is a source of confusion to me when I hear this from proponents of dominant eye shooting? To me, and please feel free to correct me on this, if I'm misunderstanding your contentions about the dominant eye's roll, is that if the dominant eye is that important in playing pool, then why would it make any difference to which side of the dominant eye the cue was set? However, I'd have concerns because it's my personal opinion that binocular vision is more important than eye dominance in determining the true path of the CB. I, therefore, would be very concerned about someone who lined up outside of their right eye, or left eye for a southpaw.

Now, all of that being said, let me say that I do not have a severely dominant right eye, nor do I have what is called a "lazy" left eye. I can definitely see where someone who has an "overly" dominant eye would have to bring that more into play, but for people like me, and like I said, I aim as good lefty as I do righty, then I don't feel that favoring the dominant eye is as important as it is for someone who's dominant eye wants to do most of the work.

BTW, I'll get that speed control problem with my left handed stroke down... It's getting better every time I shoot... just a matter of time. After all, I've only been back playing for 3 years and 2 months after a 14 year layoff.

Later,
Bob

Fran Crimi
05-18-2005, 11:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> That looks a lot like Karen's cue location....
Gayle in Md... <hr /></blockquote>

It does, right? I think the main difference is that Karen was trained to keep her chin on top of the cue stick. It's very slightly inside of where Earl's is.

Fran

Fran Crimi
05-18-2005, 11:50 AM
Great response Bob! And I think some very well thought-out points.

Sorry for this long post. Some hard-to-explain stuff here.

As far as shooting left-handed, maybe you'll have to do it for awhile before you make any final decisions on the dominant eye thing. As I posted earlier, some of my beginning students will have awkward head placements in the beginning. I know that when I play left-handed my cue stick wants to go under my right eye, but that happened more and more as I played left handed.

As far as how far out under your eye you can go with your cue stick, I think there comes a point where there's diminishing returns. With a severely dominant eye, like myself, the right eye wants to pull everything over to it's side. (I'm sure that's not the scientific explanation of what's happening. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif) It's kind of like when your car is out of alignment and it constantly pulls to one side. That's what it feels like with a severely dominant eye.

If I'm not careful, my cue stick can easily wind up under my ear, but then I experience what I think may be depth perception problems in viewing the space between the cb and ob. I also find it difficult to find the center of the cb when my cue is lined up too far out. I find that I can pull the cue stick back in a little and can still see the line basically the same, but with improved depth perception and a better sense of where center is, but I can't pull it under the center of my chin or even close to that. I wouldn't see a thing.

And let's face it, those of us who've been playing for so long can make the basic shots practically blind if we had to. I'm sure Earl can execute the basic stuff pretty well even if his depth perception was slightly compromised. It's the tougher ones where all this stuff comes into play.

Fran


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> Fran,
I see what you're saying, and yes, I do have the cue slightly off center of my head towards my dominant eye, however, when I shoot left handed, I'm aligned in mirror image to what is in that picture. In other words, I'm favoring my left eye, or non-dominant eye shooting left handed. I have absolutely no trouble aiming when shooting left handed and except for the lack of coordination to have as good a speed control with my left hand, I pocket the balls every bit as center pocket as I do right handed.

Under the ear... ok, you're absolutely right. If I had a student that had the cue under their ear, I'd have concerns, but for different reasons, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) than your concerns. Here's why, and this is just my opinion: If eye dominance plays an important roll in seeing the true path of the cue ball, then I'd have to look at it like this: Someone who has the cue off of the side of their face to the right of their right eye is no more off center of the cue than a player who has the cue under the center of their chin, so their actually no more out of line with their dominant eye than a "centered up" player is. Do you see where this is a source of confusion to me when I hear this from proponents of dominant eye shooting? To me, and please feel free to correct me on this, if I'm misunderstanding your contentions about the dominant eye's roll, is that if the dominant eye is that important in playing pool, then why would it make any difference to which side of the dominant eye the cue was set? However, I'd have concerns because it's my personal opinion that binocular vision is more important than eye dominance in determining the true path of the CB. I, therefore, would be very concerned about someone who lined up outside of their right eye, or left eye for a southpaw.

Now, all of that being said, let me say that I do not have a severely dominant right eye, nor do I have what is called a "lazy" left eye. I can definitely see where someone who has an "overly" dominant eye would have to bring that more into play, but for people like me, and like I said, I aim as good lefty as I do righty, then I don't feel that favoring the dominant eye is as important as it is for someone who's dominant eye wants to do most of the work.

BTW, I'll get that speed control problem with my left handed stroke down... It's getting better every time I shoot... just a matter of time. After all, I've only been back playing for 3 years and 2 months after a 14 year layoff.

Later,
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Voodoo Daddy
05-18-2005, 12:24 PM
{Sits on a couch, across from Fran and starts to sing}
<font color="blue">"Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...here I am stuck in the middle with you"</font color>

Rod
05-18-2005, 05:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I return to my golf game for the time being where I can simply stick my finger in my mouth and stick it in the wind and feel the side the wind cools then adjust my shot accordingly......later

<hr /></blockquote>

I'm with you cheese, now where’d I put my clubs? Now if it's a hook wind and I wanna cut it --- well you know. BTW it's going to be 107 tommorrow, want to warm up a little? LOL

Rod

Rod
05-18-2005, 05:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It's kind of like when your car is out of alignment and it constantly pulls to one side. <hr /></blockquote>

Ya well Fran, bent tie rod/toe out, separated radial ply, low tire pressure, more than 1 degree of positive camber. Better get that fixed or your tire will be worn out! LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rod

DebraLiStarr
05-18-2005, 06:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Hey cheesemouse;

You are too gracious to respond to my strong language with such kindness.

My medication (legal) makes me irritable but that's no excuse. I usually do a better job of controlling myself.

IT JUST DAWNED ON ME THAT YOUR NAME IS 'cheesemouse'! What a coincidence.

Oh, since mickeymouse is afraid of ghosts can I call that ball the "phantom ball"? I can deal with phantoms...and...I tried it and it has really helped me. Not so much the contact point on the object ball (I see that clearly) but the all important contact point on the cue ball.

Thanks...almost 'the end':

m--i--c (see you real soon)- k--e--y (why? because we like you!)....m----o----u----s----eeeeeee!

Surely all of you are old enough to remember that. I sang for Walt in 1955 on opening year (I was a little tyke)...pre-muskateers. He put on a talent show on a stage just outside the gate to entertain those that were waiting in line to buy tickets. 9 a.m. till booths opened at 10 a.m. (Where was American Idol then?) <hr /></blockquote>

They were scouting this guy.

http://img14.imgspot.com/u/05/137/20/FastLarryWMMEars.JPG

cheesemouse
05-18-2005, 07:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You are too gracious to respond to my strong language with such kindness.<hr /></blockquote>

Hey Mickey were cool......welcome aboard. You will find lots of gracious and informed players here...it's nice to know stuff but bottom line in this game is hitting lots of balls......

Rod....I played my last two holes of golf today in the dark....hehehe /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

nhp
05-19-2005, 04:37 AM
Fran, there is one player who places his cue under his ear, if not further out than that- Neils Feijen. He holds it out way further than Earl, I'm surprised nobody mentioned him.

Rich R.
05-19-2005, 06:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Fran, there is one player who places his cue under his ear, if not further out than that- Neils Feijen. He holds it out way further than Earl, I'm surprised nobody mentioned him. <hr /></blockquote>
I have seen Neils play several times and I have never noticed that. I believe his head is directly over his cue, but I could be wrong.
Neils has extremely good mechanics.

Qtec
05-19-2005, 07:16 AM
http://www.aswandesign.nl/NielsFeijenWeb/Images/Gallery/Niels%20vs%20Strickland.jpg

Qtec........

Rich R.
05-19-2005, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> http://www.aswandesign.nl/NielsFeijenWeb/Images/Gallery/Niels%20vs%20Strickland.jpg

Qtec........ <hr /></blockquote>
I think the camera angle may be a little deceiving in this picture, however, the cue is under his right eye, at most, and no where near his ear. With a better angle, the cue may actually be under his chin, and just favoring the right side a little.

Mavis
05-19-2005, 09:13 AM
I agree the camera angle isn't perfect but just say it.....or......I'll say it for you......"I was wrong".

Rich R.
05-19-2005, 10:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mavis:</font><hr> I agree the camera angle isn't perfect but just say it.....or......I'll say it for you......"I was wrong". <hr /></blockquote>
There isn't necessarily a "right" or "wrong", in a good discussion. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee
05-19-2005, 11:28 AM
Rich...No matter WHERE his cue is positioned, his pre-shot routine and smooth stroke are what determine that Niels plays one of the strongest games on the planet! He can come with "the shot" at ANY time...and frequently does!...and his girlfriend doesn't shoot too bad either! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

Mavis
05-19-2005, 11:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>
There isn't necessarily a "right" or "wrong", in a good discussion. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

There is a right or a wrong as to whether his cue is under his eye or chin.

Except, of course, when you said it was under his chin when in fact it was under his eye.

nhp
05-19-2005, 04:23 PM
Could someone post this picture of Neils for everyone to see?

http://www.azbilliards.com/gallery/showpicture.cfm?eventnum=89&amp;photographernum=1&amp;picn um=5334

PQQLK9
05-19-2005, 05:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Could someone post this picture of Neils for everyone to see?

http://www.azbilliards.com/gallery/showpicture.cfm?eventnum=89&amp;photographernum=1&amp;picn um=5334 <hr /></blockquote> http://www.azbilliards.com/gallery/naotstop2/PA119580.jpg

Scott Lee
05-19-2005, 07:30 PM
Gee, it sure LOOKS like his cue is under his ear...but is it his DOMINANT ear? LMAO Humans are amazingly adaptable.
As long as the stroke is there, you can line up a lot of different ways, and still get the job done...case in point (this picture)! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee

Qtec
05-20-2005, 04:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Gee, it sure LOOKS like his cue is under his ear...but is it his DOMINANT ear? LMAO Humans are amazingly adaptable.
As long as the stroke is there, you can line up a lot of different ways, and still get the job done...case in point (this picture)! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

So far you have failed to produce ANY evidence [ apart from your own opinion or that somebody 'told you so' /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif] that E-Dom plays no part in aiming as regards to pool.
[ QUOTE ]
you can line up a lot of different ways, and still get the job done <hr /></blockquote>
Different players aim differently. True, but how do you account for that?
It might surprise you but there are degree's of dominance. Most people are slightly dominant in one eye or the other. People who have no dominant eye can have problems with aiming!
Earl and Niels are obviously both extermely right eye dominant,so its no surprise that their head is the position that it is.
How do YOU account for the fact that Niels holds his cue under his dominant ear. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif LOL

Qtec........next time I see Niels I will ask him about this.

nhp
05-20-2005, 04:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Gee, it sure LOOKS like his cue is under his ear...but is it his DOMINANT ear? LMAO Humans are amazingly adaptable.
As long as the stroke is there, you can line up a lot of different ways, and still get the job done...case in point (this picture)! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Thats probably the best post in this thread. It reminds me of Buddy Hall saying "It doesn't matter what your stance or stroke looks like, as long as you do it consistently it's gonna work"

Qtec
05-20-2005, 05:43 AM
Obviously you havent read the whole thread !
Q

Qtec
05-20-2005, 05:52 AM
Question; do you think that Steve Davis dominated snooker in the 80,s because he had the best stroke?
Does Earl have a better stroke than Gabe Owen or B. Hall?

The difference between the Pro,s is not in who has the best stroke.
Stroke comes in about 40% in importance IMO. You need a good one but its not the 'be all and end all'.
Before a stroke becomes usefull, you first have to know where you are aiming.



Q

Deeman2
05-20-2005, 06:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Question; do you think that Steve Davis dominated snooker in the 80,s because he had the best stroke?
Does Earl have a better stroke than Gabe Owen or B. Hall?

The difference between the Pro,s is not in who has the best stroke.
Stroke comes in about 40% in importance IMO. You need a good one but its not the 'be all and end all'.
Before a stroke becomes usefull, you first have to know where you are aiming.



Q <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Q,

You're right. I can't believe I agree with you twice in the same week! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gifA lot of this is young eyes and young nerves as well. When Earl and some of the other greats were 20 years old, they almost didn't know how to miss. Now the only thing that keeps them competitive is more knowledge and maybe better position. </font color>

Deeman

Qtec
05-20-2005, 07:03 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Q,

You're right. I can't believe I agree with you twice in the same week! <hr /></blockquote>
D, you dont know how much that pleases me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gifLOL
I was begining to think you had switched your brain to the óff'position! LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The thing is DM, there are thousands of pool players out there , who , in their own club[ with a couple of beers] will literally 'shoot the lights out'.!
The problem is they cant PERFORM when it counts! Thats why they are great players who never win anything.
If you ever have a young player with talent and you are going to train him to be able to play his best, you have to integrate 'mental training' from the first lesson.

Mental training is really all about removing doubt![ finally someone says something original on this board! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Copyrght applies.[ I have read the cue thread! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif]

Q

Fran Crimi
05-20-2005, 07:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Gee, it sure LOOKS like his cue is under his ear...but is it his DOMINANT ear? LMAO Humans are amazingly adaptable.
As long as the stroke is there, you can line up a lot of different ways, and still get the job done...case in point (this picture)! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Do you think Neils can line up with the cue under his left eye and see just as well?

I know from personal experience in having a severely dominant eye, that players who have a severely dominant eye will place the cue in various positions from the center of the eye to the extreme edge of the eye, which is why you will see pictures of them with slightly different cue placements. To the player, it feels like the eye is constantly pulling outward.

If you want to split hairs and categorize that as placing the cue under your ear, that's fine. But what I think you're refusing to acknowledge is the reason the cue is placed there in the first place.

Fran

Alfie
05-20-2005, 09:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> If you want to split hairs and categorize that as placing the cue under your ear, that's fine. But what I think you're refusing to acknowledge is the reason the cue is placed there in the first place. <hr /></blockquote>He's blind in the left eye.

Scott Lee
05-20-2005, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> The difference between the Pro,s is not in who has the best stroke.
Stroke comes in about 40% in importance IMO. You need a good one but its not the 'be all and end all'.
Before a stroke becomes usefull, you first have to know where you are aiming.



Q <hr /></blockquote>

Actually, I agree with you here too, Q! But you're talking about the pros...ALL of whom already HAVE a good repeatable stroke. I'm talking about the OTHER 10,000,000 skilled amateur poolplayers, who, in all likelihood, do NOT have a good repeatable stroke...nor any semblance of a pre-shot routine. Without either of those, a person will have a difficult time actually striking the CB where they THINK they're aiming. So, under that scenario, the stroke IS the end-all, be-all, because without it, you can't hit the CB the same way, in the same place, even twice in a row...let alone 10x! JMO /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee

Fran Crimi
05-20-2005, 12:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> He's blind in the left eye. <hr /></blockquote>

Good one. Even if that were true I would suspect that the cue wouldn't be that far over to the right unless he had a severely dominant right eye. I'm going to start documenting data on players I come across with eye pathologies and see what I get. I do recall a couple of occasions of being surprised by students who said they were legally blind in one eye, but I never would have known it judging by their cue placement. Could their "bad" eye have been their dominant eye?

Fran

Leviathan
05-20-2005, 03:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>

Actually, I agree with you here too, Q! But you're talking about the pros...ALL of whom already HAVE a good repeatable stroke. I'm talking about the OTHER 10,000,000 skilled amateur poolplayers, who, in all likelihood, do NOT have a good repeatable stroke...nor any semblance of a pre-shot routine. Without either of those, a person will have a difficult time actually striking the CB where they THINK they're aiming. So, under that scenario, the stroke IS the end-all, be-all, because without it, you can't hit the CB the same way, in the same place, even twice in a row...let alone 10x! JMO /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Scott, your logic is fouled up. You say that a good, repeatable stroke is essential to consistently accurate shooting, and you say it follows from this that a good, repeatable stroke is the end-all and be-all of consistently accurate shooting. Well, that's an unsound argument. It's like saying one needs bacon to make BLTs, so bacon is all one needs to make BLTs. Also, you contradict yourself: if a good, repeatable stroke is the end-all and be-all of consistently accurate shooting, then a good pre-shot routine is unnecessary.

You lessen your credibility with me--well, so what--and maybe with other readers when you push this stroke-is-everything line too hard. You're close to coming on like a pitchman here: Scott's magic stroke formula cures all ills!

Alan Salmon

nhp
05-20-2005, 03:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Question; do you think that Steve Davis dominated snooker in the 80,s because he had the best stroke?
Does Earl have a better stroke than Gabe Owen or B. Hall?

The difference between the Pro,s is not in who has the best stroke.
Stroke comes in about 40% in importance IMO. You need a good one but its not the 'be all and end all'.
Before a stroke becomes usefull, you first have to know where you are aiming.



Q <hr /></blockquote>

Sure Earl has one of the best strokes, perhaps the best stroke in the game.

Do you think that to be a top player it's 40% stroke and the rest is aim or what??

A consistent, accurate stroke is a huge part of how good someone plays. Any top player will tell you, the rest is all mental. It's whether you can keep that stroke accurate and consistent under the pressure. I will bet you anything that more shots are missed by flaws in mechanics or alignment than in aim.

Scott Lee
05-20-2005, 08:21 PM
Alan...It's all the same thing! The pre-shot routine is PART of the stroke process, and thereby essential to making it "repeatable". The timing, alignment, and set up are just as essential as a smooth movement of the cuestick... and yes, if you have these things, your overall pool game will improve, and be much more consistent, regardless of how much other knowledge about strategy, etc. a player might have. I guess what I believe, is that to reach your personal potential with your pool game, it is necessary to have these other elements. Most amateur players don't, and often do not succeed at the table as much as they think they should, or wish they could. After coming to school to learn these things in their proper perspective, students often see radical improvement, both in pocketing balls consistently, and getting much better position...which allows them to better utiliize knowledge of pattern play, safties, etc. If this belief, which comes from decades of teaching, and is supported by the best instructors in the country, makes me a "pitchman"...then so be it!

Martin Luther King said it best..."I have a dream!" Well, I do...and that dream is to help as many people as I can, over my lifetime, become the best poolplayers they can!
You've seen what others say about this style of teaching and learning. It is ALL positive, with no negatives...and I am not just talking about ME! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Scott Lee

randyg
05-22-2005, 08:31 AM
Scott Lee knows what he's talking about.

Before Alignment we must have a delivery. Stroke comes first, then Alignment. Without a good stroke one would never be able to tell were their Aimed at.

Proudly add me to the list also.........SPF-randyg