PDA

View Full Version : Fair Idea To Ask A Cue Builder To Replicate?



Sid_Vicious
05-14-2005, 03:12 PM
Any thoughts against asking a cue builder to replicate a specific cue to every possible detail except for the signature of course? I saw a cue while surfing the web and it already sold, great pictures still posted there. I thought about the possibility of replicating it, if it is perfectly ethical. How's this idea fly???sid

Harold Acosta
05-14-2005, 03:22 PM
Some cuemakers would not do it....

Popcorn
05-14-2005, 05:13 PM
Most of the cuemakers knock off each others designs themselves anyway. I would say, even though you really like the desigh, a small change could be made to it, maybe even for the better, to make it unique but basicaly the same.

Cueless Joey
05-14-2005, 10:01 PM
Replicating a current cuemaker's cue would be downright unethical imo.
Replicating a classic cue, maybe not so bad.

Jimmy B
05-15-2005, 01:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Any thoughts against asking a cue builder to replicate a specific cue to every possible detail except for the signature of course? I saw a cue while surfing the web and it already sold, great pictures still posted there. I thought about the possibility of replicating it, if it is perfectly ethical. How's this idea fly???sid

<hr /></blockquote>

In this day and age with the CNC abilities most cuemakers have it is very easy to make exact copies, there are also many people making a nice solid cue. This leads to the 2 things that set cue makers aside,
1) Name and reputation.
2) Designs
The key is the design, it's what makes or breaks cuemakers and it's all they really have. It's their heart and soul, it's their art.
IMO any cuemaker who would do it is nothing more then a hack and a thief. If they had any artistic ability and skill they should be offended at anyone who even thought of asking them to STEAL a design. There is no God given right for you to be able to have something just because you liked it. I like a Lamborghini, I can't afford it I wouldn't go to Saturn and ask them to make me one for 1/5 the price.
I think what you need to do is call the person who made it in the first place if you really like it, after all it's his work you like and he should be rewarded for doing something you like and not stolen from because of it.
You should also take into consideration that a person may have come up with it and contracted the cuemaker, it could be an original design thought up by a customer and not a cuemaker and the person may have paid extra to have it be a 1 of a kind, think how you'd feel if someone had an exact cue that you drew up on a bar napkin one night in a drunken fog. The main point is it's stealing and any cuemaker worth his salt won't copy a design. I know there are a few people who will argue this point and most of them have either stole designs before or have profited from these thefts. You don't need to take my word on this you can call any *REAL* cuemaker and ask what they think.
Call Ginacue, Call Jerry McWorter, Ask Thomas Wayne, or E-mail Edwin Reyes, any cuemaker who has ever worked hard to create something original, anyone who takes pride in making something their own.
It's Wrong!
It's Wrong.
It's Wrong!

JB&lt;---Holding back

P.S. Can I ask why you donít call the original person who made it and ask them if you can Buy/Barrow the design, or better yet why not ask them to make it???

Chopstick
05-15-2005, 06:03 AM
Remember the Golden Rule. If it's you're gold then it's your rules. It's not the cuemakers cue, it's your cue and your money. You have a right to have it made any way you want it.

Like Popcorn says, all modern cues are derivative of some previous work. I am having a copy of an old classic Szamboti made right now. Along the way some changes have been incorporated into the cue that improve on the original.

Look at it this way. What about music? You wouldn't for a second think that the only person who had a right to sing a song was the guy who wrote it. Cuemakers are no different than musicians. You put the sheet music in front of them and it's their job to play it.

I say go for it Sid and have fun.

Popcorn
05-15-2005, 08:32 AM
There is hardly a cue maker today not making a six point hi-lo copy of the South west. It is a popular design and what a lot of people want. Most all the cue makers design are inspired by others designs whether it is their floating points or color selections in their splices they all copy whether they admit it of not. Regarding the South west joint style most are practically an exact copy. To copy a design exactly would not be right but to be inspired by a design and to make a variation of it would not be unethical. I just took a look at the American Cue Makers Ass. web site and was looking at cues by many of the cue makers. and it is easy to recognize where many of their the designed came from. I am not saying someone should copy, just some of these guys who squalk are just a little bit of hypocrites

Jimmy B
05-15-2005, 01:22 PM
Popcorn I understand your point and there is a ton of stealing going on, but that doesn't make it right. To say that it's fine because everyone has done it is BS. Also Inspired is not copying and the original question was not about inspired it was about liking a cue and wanting to have it copied. The problem is people see it and think it's exceptable, you are dead wrong when you think there aren't many new designs out there and that everyone is just knocking off other styles, with the advent of the CNC the sky is the limit and true artists have no trouble coming up with new and different designs.

JB

Jimmy B
05-15-2005, 01:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> Remember the Golden Rule. If it's you're gold then it's your rules. It's not the cuemakers cue, it's your cue and your money. You have a right to have it made any way you want it.

<hr /></blockquote>

I've never read a bigger load of crap in all my life. Sure you can get most money hungry people to do things that are wrong and unethical, but to think it's an ok practice just because someone will do it is moronic. The point isn't if you can get someone to do it it's if it's right or wrong, in this case it's wrong and should not be done. The real golden rule here should be the man who created the golden design should get the gold for his hard work. Call the creator and ask permission or order it from him, plain and simple. You do have enough Gold to afford it right?????

JB

Popcorn
05-15-2005, 02:04 PM
I look at a lot of cues and few of these guys are artists in the least. A squiggle line here a dot or diamond there, windows and so on, most for sake of just sticking stuff on with little thought of what brings the whole design together. Really nice clean and interesting cue designs are few and far between. I didn't say it was OK to copy just the guys who complain do it themselves and was pointing out the hypocrisy of it.

Jimmy B
05-15-2005, 03:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I look at a lot of cues and few of these guys are artists in the least. A squiggle line here a dot or diamond there, windows and so on, most for sake of just sticking stuff on with little thought of what brings the whole design together. Really nice clean and interesting cue designs are few and far between. I didn't say it was OK to copy just the guys who complain do it themselves and was pointing out the hypocrisy of it. <hr /></blockquote>

What's your point? You're too far off on a tangent that really has no bearing on this topic. Do you just want to hear yourself rant or are you making a point. I get that YOU just aren't impressed with some people's designs, good for you. I don't care if you like or think that a person's design is good or really bad the point is stealing it is wrong. If you want to post some cue pics and give us your opinion on them as far as if the design is nice or not go right ahead. If you want to comment on if this guy should knock off a cue design and have someone else make it go ahead. If you want to debate me that stealing designs is ok go ahead, but I can't really follow what it is you're doing now other then hinting at insults.
I also have no patience for people who love to make claims and not mention names, you seem to be real good at that.

JB

Regulator
05-15-2005, 06:01 PM
""to replicate a specific cue to every possible detail""

I have to agree that this is not ethical.

Now, if you took the pictures to another cue maker and said do this, this and this, but make a change here and here, well, that's the way many cues are designed.

It's the "replicate a specific cue to every possible detail" that isn't ethical.

Popcorn
05-15-2005, 06:21 PM
I actually did go through most all the websites on the ACA as well as others. You see knockoffs of Szamboti, Southwest, Gina, even Balabushka. Josey cues he has a whole series that are little more then knocks off of Joe Gold cues. Capone has South west look alike. One guy has copied the Szamboti propeller design. Most have a model with the points cut through the rings copied from Ginacue as well as the reversed points in the butt sleeve also copied from Gina. Steel rings in the joints taken from Balabushka. Most of these guys haven't had an original idea in their lives. Samsara, Gina, Joe Gold and Southwest, may be some of the very few who are in any way innovative. Didn't Richard Black actually win an award for a cue he admitted was a copy of someone else's design. I don't think they should do it either but they do.

Rich R.
05-15-2005, 06:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>Look at it this way. What about music? You wouldn't for a second think that the only person who had a right to sing a song was the guy who wrote it. Cuemakers are no different than musicians. You put the sheet music in front of them and it's their job to play it.
<hr /></blockquote>You forget that song writers SELL the right to sing their songs. Also, when you put sheet music in front of that musician, it is their job to play it, but someone has paid for that sheet music and royalties are paid to the song writer. If that musician records that song, more royalties are due the song writer.

What do you think about paying royalties to cue designers?

Scott Lee
05-15-2005, 09:46 PM
Popcorn...Nobody "knocks off" Samsara designs, because they CAN'T!...in other words, the designs are too complex for anyone to copy. Same thing with Thomas Wayne's cues. I noticed Josey's similar copies of Cognoscenti designs, and Joe was not happy about it at all. However, what pissed him off, was when Falcon made a cheap chinese copy decal cue, with one of his designs. His attorney went after them, and they quit the cue, as far as I know.

There is a story told by several cuemakers, about a famous pro player, who went into the custom cuemaking biz in YOUR state. He used to walk around the trade show, looking at other cuemaker's cues, and making notes on which ones he could copy, and which ones he couldn't (those would be the complex designs of guys like Samsara, Cognoscenti, and a few others). I remember hearing the guy telling everyone, "I'll NEVER sell a cue for less than $3,000!" He didn't sell too many, at any price...and his first year cues were all bought by a 'friend' and put up for sale on eBay, at SIGNIFICANTLY less than that (around $600, IIRC)! You probably remember this...it was only a few years ago.

Scott Lee

Chopstick
05-16-2005, 06:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>Look at it this way. What about music?
<hr /></blockquote>You forget that song writers SELL the right to sing their songs. Also, when you put sheet music in front of that musician, it is their job to play it, but someone has paid for that sheet music and royalties are paid to the song writer. If that musician records that song, more royalties are due the song writer.

What do you think about paying royalties to cue designers? <hr /></blockquote>

I did not forget. I was hoping for someone to pick up that point. Music is copyrighted material. Cue designs are not. Wile I agree that it falls in the realm of intellectual property, you cannot steal what is not owned in any way, shape, or form. I believe that cue designers should be paid royalties. The question at that point is what constitutes a design. Is it the whole cue or an individual element like the quick release joint? A style of taper or a group of squiggly lines with dots? Looks like or feels like? Looks exactly like or sort of looks like? Has six prongs but in a different color? What constitutes a design and where do you draw the line?

Until cue makers declare ownership of something, there is no right or wrong, ethical or unethical.

Rich R.
05-16-2005, 06:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> Music is copyrighted material. Cue designs are not. Wile I agree that it falls in the realm of intellectual property, you cannot steal what is not owned in any way, shape, or form. <hr /></blockquote>
I'm no lawyer, so I don't know if copyright laws would pertain to cue designs. But, if they did, ownership of the design would be protected. The copyright laws are written in such a way, that they apply, even if the creator does not go through the legal steps to apply for the copyright. Ownership, by the creator, is assumed.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>The question at that point is what constitutes a design. Is it the whole cue or an individual element like the quick release joint? A style of taper or a group of squiggly lines with dots? Looks like or feels like? Looks exactly like or sort of looks like? Has six prongs but in a different color? What constitutes a design and where do you draw the line?<hr /></blockquote>
As in music, I'm sure the courts would have to get involved, to determine what is a copy and what is not.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>Until cue makers declare ownership of something, there is no right or wrong, ethical or unethical. <hr /></blockquote>
I believe when a cue maker signs and/or puts his logo on a cue, he is declaring ownership of that design. The real question is, with a classic design, which cue maker declared ownership first. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Fran Crimi
05-16-2005, 07:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Regulator:</font><hr>

It's the "replicate a specific cue to every possible detail" that isn't ethical. <hr /></blockquote>


I believe it's called commercial property theft and it's illegal. The BCA banned cameras at their trade show for that specific purpose. Even if every detail isn't exactly copied, if enough of the item is copied that would make it look like a duplicate of the original, I believe a case can be made for commercial property theft.

Also, every industry has their 'design standards' which are freely used by all, however duplicating an entire cue or copying a non-standard design that can clearly be traced to the originator, is illegal.

Fran

Chopstick
05-16-2005, 07:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> The copyright laws are written in such a way, that they apply, even if the creator does not go through the legal steps to apply for the copyright. Ownership, by the creator, is assumed.

I believe when a cue maker signs and/or puts his logo on a cue, he is declaring ownership of that design. The real question is, with a classic design, which cue maker declared ownership first. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

The assumption of implied ownership, of intellictual property, by the presence of a signiture or logo. Hmm, you may have a valid point there. I'll keep an eye out for additional information on that subject. In the case of classic cue designs I think they can be considered to be in the public domain.

When a cue maker has a disctictive look to his cues like Southwest for example, does that look constitute intellectual property? You can look at any Southwest cue and say that looks like a Southwest. A lot of guitar players sound like Stevie Ray Vaughan. Maybe they just use a couple of runs they heard him do once.

When it came time for my Southwest to be made, Jerry Franklin called me and asked me what I wanted. I told him I wanted a softer hit than his normal and I wanted it cut to Szamboti tapers. So, do I have a Southwest or a Szamboti knock off? It doesn't look like a Szamboti. It feels like one though.

Even if you have a cue made that looks like another cue, it will not have the same tapers or the same hit. So, what part of a cue design is considered unique and implies ownership?

Rich R.
05-16-2005, 08:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>Even if you have a cue made that looks like another cue, it will not have the same tapers or the same hit. So, what part of a cue design is considered unique and implies ownership? <hr /></blockquote>
These are issues that may never be settled. If they are ever settled, I'm sure a lot of lawyers will be lining their pockets along the way. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Regulator
05-16-2005, 09:20 AM
One way to look at it is from the standpoint of car design.

Lots of cars have components of their design that look exactly like they came from other cars. If the entire front or back of a new car looked the same as another company's car, I'm sure lawyers would get involved.

A cue (without shaft) has certain sections - joint, collar, forearm, handle, butt and rings. Unless any cue has seriously detailed work, I doubt much is "new" in the design.

Exact copies should not be tolerated.

Popcorn
05-16-2005, 09:22 AM
I have been at the BCA show and there were import cues there that were exact copies, however made poorly, of cues by cuemakers in attendance. The BCA didn't seem to take any sides in the mater when some complained. Either way, it is civil law and unless there are some Millionaire cue makers it would be all but impossible to do anything about it the legal cost would be so high and the actual damages would be a practically nothing. It could even be considered a frivolous suit and the cuemaker could be liable for the legal costs of the guy he is suing. I would think most any lawyer would advise against perusing it.

tateuts
05-16-2005, 10:12 AM
My favorite story is, I was selling cues for an old time maker. They had a beautiful dot and dash style ring in ivory that I thought he invented, because so many of his cues had these rings for many years.

Well, this maker started making cues in the early 1980's. I saw a JW from the 1970's that had the exact same style, down to the size and number of the dots. I said to him "I saw your rings on an early JossWest."

He replied "He copied Ernie!".

Chris

tateuts
05-16-2005, 10:15 AM
Sid,

I am beginning to think the current cuemakers have their hands full producing their own designs and repair work.

I needed to get a Palmer butt sleeve re-made. I sent the request to at least 10 different cue makers.

I was willing to spend whatever it took, supply the parts to duplicate, supply detailed photos, supply the window material etc.

Not one wanted to do it. I'm still looking.

Chris

eg8r
05-16-2005, 10:21 AM
[ QUOTE ]
There is a story told by several cuemakers, about a famous pro player, who went into the custom cuemaking biz in YOUR state. He used to walk around the trade show, looking at other cuemaker's cues, and making notes on which ones he could copy, and which ones he couldn't (those would be the complex designs of guys like Samsara, Cognoscenti, and a few others). I remember hearing the guy telling everyone, "I'll NEVER sell a cue for less than $3,000!" He didn't sell too many, at any price...and his first year cues were all bought by a 'friend' and put up for sale on eBay, at SIGNIFICANTLY less than that (around $600, IIRC)! You probably remember this...it was only a few years ago.
<hr /></blockquote> Hey Scott, I heard that story, and I have one of those cues. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Never played with it, so I am not sure if I like it or not, but I like the way it looks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I never see the locals playing with his cues, but every time I have been in his shop he was working on some new ones. He must be selling them somewhere to someone, just not here. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Cueless Joey
05-16-2005, 11:26 AM
Is that player turned "cuemaker" lefthanded? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chopstick
05-16-2005, 11:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I never see the locals playing with his cues, but every time I have been in his shop he was working on some new ones. He must be selling them somewhere to someone, just not here. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I heard he sold his entire operation to China.

eg8r
05-16-2005, 12:08 PM
He could be. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Fran Crimi
05-16-2005, 05:50 PM
I was reading a court case that involved commercial property theft and it took place in federal court. I don't know all the specifics on the law but I think it's a federal offense.

I doubt the BCA would be able to do anything on just a complaint. They would probably need some kind of dated, documented proof or they could be sued themselves if they took any action.

You're right, I doubt anyone would bother to pursue it to the end, however, it's still illegal and a real reputation killer if you're trying to establish yourself in business. Word gets around. And I hear those threatening legal letters are nasty.

Fran


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I have been at the BCA show and there were import cues there that were exact copies, however made poorly, of cues by cuemakers in attendance. The BCA didn't seem to take any sides in the mater when some complained. Either way, it is civil law and unless there are some Millionaire cue makers it would be all but impossible to do anything about it the legal cost would be so high and the actual damages would be a practically nothing. It could even be considered a frivolous suit and the cuemaker could be liable for the legal costs of the guy he is suing. I would think most any lawyer would advise against perusing it. <hr /></blockquote>

Regulator
05-16-2005, 06:28 PM
I'm a computer guy.

There are lots of cases where people lost out on patents and/or copyrights due to "prior art." This is where someone proves that something existed before you claimed to have invented it.

The most infamous is when Apple sued Microsoft for copying the Mac with Windows. The judge ruled that since Apple stole the idea from Xerox, Apple can't say they own it just because Xerox never sued. Case dismissed.

A cue maker could say they took the points look from some old cue and the rings from another old cue, . . . . .

Who's got the hundreds of thousands it takes to sue over a cue design ??

People have to be ethical. When lawyers get involved, only the lawyers win.

Popcorn
05-16-2005, 06:58 PM
In my last post I meant to say "pursuing it." "Perusing it" sounded like one of the Bowery boys. I used to play pool a couple times a week with Hunts Hall by the way. He was the same in real life as in the movies.

Stick
05-16-2005, 08:37 PM
Why not ask the original maker of the cue to make you a copy? You get the cue, they get the money for the good design and craftmanship, and nobody gets bent out of shape.

Jimmy B
05-17-2005, 02:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stick:</font><hr> Why not ask the original maker of the cue to make you a copy? You get the cue, they get the money for the good design and craftmanship, and nobody gets bent out of shape. <hr /></blockquote>

Stick I've brought this up a few times and it's been ignored, I'd love to hear the reasons why he wouldn't do it. BTW I'd wager most of the reasons why he didn't want to in the first place are green.

JB

Popcorn
05-17-2005, 05:42 AM
You know, that could be even worse in some instances. If the cue maker built the cue for a customer as a one of a kind cue he should not duplicate it, that would be worse then someone else doing it. I had a one of a kind cue I designed built by a top name cue maker, it was pretty unique. A few years ago now that there is the Internet I found the exact cue on a Japanese collectors web site by the same cue maker. I was shocked, seems the cue maker made copies of the design we had worked out for other customers. I guess my one of a kind was not so one of a kind after all. I know this is not the original cue since I broke it over twenty years ago. By the way, you seem to have an inside track, what is going on with the Blue Book?

Fred Agnir
05-17-2005, 07:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> Music is copyrighted material. Cue designs are not. Wile I agree that it falls in the realm of intellectual property, you cannot steal what is not owned in any way, shape, or form.
.
.
Until cue makers declare ownership of something

<hr /></blockquote> This has been brought up before and the copyright language does include artistic designs and works of art in general.

The copyright language also says that you do not have to register your work for a copyright infringement to take place.

To the original question, not only is it unethical in my opinion for a cuemaker, tattooist, or painter to copy an aesthetic design, but it seems to be a copyright infringement.

The Ginacue knockoffs, IMO, are ridiculously unethical. The gray area of direct copy and inspired is where there is room for disagreement. So too is the Southwest knockoff issue. If they have the same slotted rings and the same butt sleeve and use the same woods that Southwest uses, it's tough not to call it a Southwest knockoff. Some cuemakers go so far as to hit the measurements of the points, gaps, and collars exactly the same.


Fred

bustah360
05-17-2005, 07:37 AM
I can see the point of the "artist's" perspective. But its also true that there aren't that many cue's out there that haven't been copied by some other existing design. I see it this way, if you're gonna go up to a cue maker and ask him to copy what some other person did to a tee, then its wrong. If you point out that you want a cue to look like this but with some changes made, then there shouldn't be a problem.

Either way you look at this, if the cue maker claims to make custom cues then he's agreeing to make a cue designed for whatever the customer wants. True that it looks like someone else's (like I said there's almost nothing out there that doesn't) but the pin, ferrule, taper or whatever might suit the clients needs moreso then the original make. You have a lot of hungry cue makers out there that just want to put out their skills in the world for all to see. I honestly can't blame these guys, they're just trying to get started before they can call their own shots.

Rich R.
05-17-2005, 08:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bustah360:</font><hr>You have a lot of hungry cue makers out there that just want to put out their skills in the world for all to see. I honestly can't blame these guys, they're just trying to get started before they can call their own shots. <hr /></blockquote>
The best way for a young cue maker to get a good start is to, first, make a good quality cue, and second, to make it look unique and different from other designs.
Copying someone else's design just shows that they are not creative enough to do their own designs.

bustah360
05-17-2005, 09:20 AM
Well...there's not too many original designs at all. What about my point on the whole "custom cue" scenario. The client wants what the client wants. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying making a replica (exact copy) is right. I'm just saying that a lot of the cue maker's give me that, "I'll make whatever you want on the cue, its a custom cue based on YOUR specifications" line.

Chopstick
05-17-2005, 10:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> This has been brought up before and the copyright language does include artistic designs and works of art in general.

The copyright language also says that you do not have to register your work for a copyright infringement to take place.

To the original question, not only is it unethical in my opinion for a cuemaker, tattooist, or painter to copy an aesthetic design, but it seems to be a copyright infringement.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

There are some interesting points in this thread that I was not aware of. I did some research into copyright law and there are a few items that clarify these issues. I was actually surprised to find a law this well written. I will try to be brief.

Copyright Law of the United States of America
and Related Laws Contained in Title 17 of the United States Code

Circular 92
Chapter 13
Protection of Original Designs

1301. Designs protected

(a) Designs protected. -

(1) In general. - The designer or other owner of an original design of a useful article which makes the article attractive or distinctive in appearance to the purchasing or using public may secure the protection provided by this chapter upon complying with and subject to this chapter.
<font color="blue">So, a cue with an overall distinctive appearance, such as a Southwest or Samsara is protected. Something like a four prong cue with various inlays in the butt that could have come from any number of makers is not.</font color>

1302. Designs not subject to protection

Protection under this chapter shall not be available for a design that is -

(1) not original;

(2) staple or commonplace, such as a standard geometric figure, a familiar symbol, an emblem, or a motif, or another shape, pattern, or configuration which has become standard, common, prevalent, or ordinary;

(3) different from a design excluded by paragraph (2) only in insignificant details or in elements which are variants commonly used in the relevant trades;
<font color="blue">Prongs, diamonds, dots, etc. are not protected. </font color>

1304. Commencement of protection

The protection provided for a design under this chapter shall commence upon the earlier of the date of publication of the registration under section 1313(a) or the date the design is first made public as defined by section 1310(b).
<font color="blue">You guys are right. As soon as a cue is displayed in public or sold it is automatically protected. Section 1310 has a kicker that may surprise you. </font color>

1310. Application for registration

(a) Time Limit for Application for Registration. - Protection under this chapter shall be lost if application for registration of the design is not made within 2 years after the date on which the design is first made public.
<font color="blue">Even though it protected automatically, the designer has two years to register it or he loses rights to the design. </font color>

(b) When Design Is Made Public. - A design is made public when an existing useful article embodying the design is anywhere publicly exhibited, publicly distributed, or offered for sale or sold to the public by the owner of the design or with the owner's consent.

<font color="blue">So, a cue design must have an appearance that is clearly distinctive and unique to that designer. Minor details such as diamonds or points or variations of previously known motifs do not count.

OK, now that the definition of a cue design has been established. That leaves the question of how royalties should be dispersed. Putting my self in a hypothetical situation, what if I wanted another Southwest and didn't want to wait six years to get it. In this case I would call Southwest and negotiate a fair compensation for using their designs. Or buy the rights to the design outright, which I may start doing now that you guys brought it up.

If I wanted a cue that looked like a four pronged Joss I once saw then I wouldn't. It is not significantly unique and there is hardly a variation of a four pronged cue that hasn't been done.</font color>

Popcorn
05-17-2005, 10:36 AM
I was at a tournament years ago and A guy showed a cue to Richard Black and asked if he had made it. It was a new cue and had been passed off as a Black. Mr. Black said an interesting thing. After looking over the cue he assured the owner he had not made it but found it hard to believe someone who could do that kind of work would not choose to put their own name on it, it was indeed a quality cue.

Jimmy B
05-17-2005, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You know, that could be even worse in some instances. If the cue maker built the cue for a customer as a one of a kind cue he should not duplicate it, that would be worse then someone else doing it. I had a one of a kind cue I designed built by a top name cue maker, it was pretty unique. A few years ago now that there is the Internet I found the exact cue on a Japanese collectors web site by the same cue maker. I was shocked, seems the cue maker made copies of the design we had worked out for other customers. I guess my one of a kind was not so one of a kind after all. I know this is not the original cue since I broke it over twenty years ago. By the way, you seem to have an inside track, what is going on with the Blue Book? <hr /></blockquote>

As far as your one of a kind goes IF (it's a big IF) the cuemaker promised you and used the word "one of a kind" then you should have called him on it and been pissed (I would have) but again you may have had a different impression of what he thought you were doing. If it was your design you have a serious case and if I were you I would have it fixed. But I don't see how it would be worse, you seem to be assuming the cuemaker WOULD make it after saying he wouldn't. He might decline and then the person would know for a fact it shouldn't be done.

As far as the bluebook goes, Brad has it back and is working hard to meet a deadline, I fear that because it was so far behind and screwed up that in the rush to get it done there will be some new misstakes, I wish it would get done right, I don't feel it needs to be rushed, I just hope the same things that were wrong with the last one happen again. Personal gain should have no effect on a project like this. There is also something else in the works that I don't really wish to talk about right now, but keep an eye out.

JB

Rich R.
05-17-2005, 11:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bustah360:</font><hr> Well...there's not too many original designs at all. What about my point on the whole "custom cue" scenario. The client wants what the client wants. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying making a replica (exact copy) is right. I'm just saying that a lot of the cue maker's give me that, "I'll make whatever you want on the cue, its a custom cue based on YOUR specifications" line. <hr /></blockquote>
If you are asking a cue maker to produce a cue, using standard features and inlays that are used by many cue makers, I don't believe their is a big problem. However, if the cue maker is aware that it is an exact copy, he should make something just a little bit different.

On the other hand, if you ask for a duplicate of a well known one of a kind design, I really think there is a problem. I don't believe the cue maker should make if for you and I don't think it is legal, and definitely immoral.
JMHO.

Jimmy B
05-17-2005, 11:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bustah360:</font><hr> But its also true that there aren't that many cue's out there that haven't been copied by some other existing design. , if the cue maker claims to make custom cues then he's agreeing to make a cue designed for whatever the customer wants. True that it looks like someone else's (like I said there's almost nothing out there that doesn't) <hr /></blockquote>

First of all the concept that there are no new designs and no cuemakers that make unique cues is complete bullshit and only spoken by people who either have no eye, no clue or just have not seen enough cues and cuemakers works. There are a group of educated people who post and read here who would be able to tell me who made which cuee if I posted 20 cue pictures and photographed them so the maker's marks were not in sight. We are not talking about basic 4 point 4 diamond cues here. This thought is bullshit and I wish people would stop saying it because it almost excuses the problem and helps perpetuate it. The other part of your post is also crap, being a custom cue maker doesn't mean you must do whatever the customer wants. Any REAL cuemaker will not do what you want, true artists do what they do and you buy it or not, they don't waver or change their ways for a sale. Don't believe me??
Call Southwest and order a 4 point cue.
Call Samsara and order floating points and ivory inlays
Call Cognoscenti and order a 6 point spliced cue

I could go on, but I think you get the point. People do what they do and if they do it well they get all the work they can handle. Hacks who don't care will do whatever they get paid to do. Sure big name guys have done cues inspired by the dead masters, but I doubt you'll see them make exact copies of cue designs or copies of living cue makers. Again don't believe me?
Call Ginacue and ask him to make a copy of a McWorter design, let me know how you make out.

JB

SpiderMan
05-17-2005, 11:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
1310. Application for registration

(a) Time Limit for Application for Registration. - Protection under this chapter shall be lost if application for registration of the design is not made within 2 years after the date on which the design is first made public.
<font color="blue">Even though it protected automatically, the designer has two years to register it or he loses rights to the design. </font color>

(b) When Design Is Made Public. - A design is made public when an existing useful article embodying the design is anywhere publicly exhibited, publicly distributed, or offered for sale or sold to the public by the owner of the design or with the owner's consent.

<font color="blue">So, a cue design must have an appearance that is clearly distinctive and unique to that designer. Minor details such as diamonds or points or variations of previously known motifs do not count.

OK, now that the definition of a cue design has been established. That leaves the question of how royalties should be dispersed. Putting my self in a hypothetical situation, what if I wanted another Southwest and didn't want to wait six years to get it. In this case I would call Southwest and negotiate a fair compensation for using their designs. Or buy the rights to the design outright, which I may start doing now that you guys brought it up.<hr /></blockquote>

Apparently you could only buy the rights to the design if they filed for copyright within two years of making the design public. Otherwise, you would be "buying" something they didn't own, and you wouldn't have any more legal protection from copies than they did.

This seems very similar to the provisions in patent law. Before we could publish an article in an industry or technical journal, it had to be reviewed by our attorneys for patentable content.

Once a design or process was published, a one-year clock started for patent filing in the USA. Also, other countries of interest did not recognize any grace period, so publication immediately precluded obtaining certain foreign patent protections.

SpiderMan

Jimmy B
05-17-2005, 11:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> The best way for a young cue maker to get a good start is to, first, make a good quality cue, and second, to make it look unique and different from other designs.
Copying someone else's design just shows that they are not creative enough to do their own designs. <hr /></blockquote>

Nice post Rich, I agree 100%

JB

Popcorn
05-17-2005, 11:10 AM
The cue was delivered to me in 1977 and the cuemaker has been dead for years. I was not complaining just I would not think they would copy something that a customer had designed. It is only recently with the net you would have any chance to view the vast number of cues out there. According the the website the cue he has is one of four the cue maker made like that and is rare. I wish I still had it but I smashed it one night and that was that. What I think happened was, this was before Panograph and cnc cues and most designs were produced using machining effects and tricks. The cue maker had to actually work out how he was going to do the cue and once he knew how he was going to do it he probably didn't want all that work to go to waste and made several others.

Jimmy B
05-17-2005, 11:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> There are some interesting points in this thread that I was not aware of. I did some research into copyright law and there are a few items that clarify these issues. I was actually surprised to find a law this well written. <hr /></blockquote>

The point you miss is that most cuemakers know of this law, most know it's easy to pursue, but the problem comes in the form of legal costs and what can be gained. The majority of cue makers are not rich men and the cue business isn't the most profitable, so spending $10,000-$20,000 to go after a guy who only made $1,200 and is broke isn't worth while, it's just bad return on investment. In the past these things have come up and they have been handled by the cuemakers, one recent case was just settled within the last 16 months involving 2 major cuemakers and one very unique design. IMO it's still not settled but there was talk of legal action and I for one wish it went that far. It needs to be stopped.

JB

Jimmy B
05-17-2005, 11:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> What I think happened was, this was before Panograph and cnc cues and most designs were produced using machining effects and tricks. The cue maker had to actually work out how he was going to do the cue and once he knew how he was going to do it he probably didn't want all that work to go to waste and made several others. <hr /></blockquote>

This is part of the reason I worded my reply the way I did, even with today's technology some designs need to be worked out and figured out and the work that goes into a unique design is long and hard and many cuemakers don't want to go through it without being well paid. This is why 1 of a kind cues have a premium price, and some cuemakers will not agree to those terms at all. My trick to this is just have a cue made so ugly that nobody in their right mind would ever want one like it
:-)

JB

SpiderMan
05-17-2005, 11:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> This is why 1 of a kind cues have a premium price, and some cuemakers will not agree to those terms at all. My trick to this is just have a cue made so ugly that nobody in their right mind would ever want one like it
:-)
JB <hr /></blockquote>

Viking does that, but they make enough for a bonfire!

SpiderMan

Nightstalker
05-17-2005, 12:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> This is why 1 of a kind cues have a premium price, and some cuemakers will not agree to those terms at all. My trick to this is just have a cue made so ugly that nobody in their right mind would ever want one like it
:-)
JB <hr /></blockquote>

Viking does that, but they make enough for a bonfire!

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

LOL, read my mind! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bustah360
05-17-2005, 12:14 PM
Don't you love it when ppl knit pick certain lines giving them something to bitch about? Excluding the rest of the post of course...

Jimmy you'd be perfect for the NYPOST.

Fran Crimi
05-17-2005, 08:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I used to play pool a couple times a week with Hunts Hall by the way. He was the same in real life as in the movies. <hr /></blockquote>

That's funny. I can't believe that guy was as goofy in real life as in the movies. My father used to love the Bowery Boys. He said it reminded him of his days growing up in Brooklyn, so I'd wind up watching them too. I think they were on every Sat. or Sun morning. Sometimes they would alternate with "Blondie". She was cool. I think they also ran another goofball at that time, "Henry Aldrich". I haven't thought about him in decades. LOL

Jimmy B
05-18-2005, 02:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bustah360:</font><hr> Don't you love it when ppl knit pick certain lines giving them something to bitch about? Excluding the rest of the post of course...

Jimmy you'd be perfect for the NYPOST. <hr /></blockquote>

About as much as I love the guys who talk about you like your not there and assume that all the readers are on their side. Would you like me to address your whole post line for line?? Here it is.

(1)Well...there's not too many original designs at all. (2)What about my point on the whole "custom cue" scenario. (3)The client wants what the client wants.(4) Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying making a replica (exact copy) is right. (5)I'm just saying that a lot of the cue maker's give me that, "I'll make whatever you want on the cue, its a custom cue based on YOUR specifications" line.

Line 1 I already adressed and it really says it all, you're clueless.

Line 2 What about your point on the "custom cue" you have no clue that a design is owned by the person who came up with it, changing the pin or weight doesn't change the art or the design and it doesn't change the point that it's wrong to steal the design.

Line 3 The client wants??? Who cares, just cause he wants it doesn't change anything or make stealing right, how spoiled and ignorant you must be to think that just because someone wants it and pays for it makes it ok.

Line 4 you're not saying it's wrong either.

Line 5 This line is some crap about a lot of the cue makers give you... I don't believe a lot of cue makers gave you anything and besides that line said nothing, if you want me to comment on all of your post then please make it more understandable.

Now don't ya just love those guys who go over every line of a post????

JB

Scott Lee
05-18-2005, 09:31 AM
JimmyB...Good answers! I'm with you on this subject, and it always pissed me off when a cue design is "knocked off" by somebody else. Seems like I've been angered more when I have seen more 'knockoffs' of some U.S. cuemakers from the Chinese, than one American cuemaker taking a partial or near design from another. I agree that, in principle, it is wrong. I've only designed one cue in my life, and that was when I FIRST started playing pool, when I was 18. I wanted Bill Stroud to make it, but it took another 12 years, before I could AFFORD to have it made! LOL My design was the very first cue he made, after converting to CNC in the early 80's. I have seen loads of similar designs like mine, but never seen one EXACTLY the same.
Sadly, that one-of-a-kind cue was stolen in 1995, and although I'll never stop looking for it, I don't really expect to see it again. You never know, though, since I actually did "find" another stolen cue last year (my Ginacue), in the possession of a major collector (you know who), nearly 14 years after it was stolen from me. The courts will decide who "owns" the cue, and I don't want to get into any debate over this with you! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Respectfully,

Scott Lee

SpiderMan
05-18-2005, 10:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> I actually did "find" another stolen cue last year (my Ginacue), in the possession of a major collector (you know who), nearly 14 years after it was stolen from me. The courts will decide who "owns" the cue, and I don't want to get into any debate over this with you! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Respectfully,

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Scott,

If you can prove it was stolen from you, it should be an open-and-shut case. Regardless of how honestly he came by it, or at what expense, I have never heard of stolen property being awarded to it's current owner. If you accidentally come into possession of stolen property, you are generally left holding the bag after recovery.

SpiderMan

Popcorn
05-18-2005, 11:46 AM
Actually a lot of it may have been put on. He seemed to really like his new found fame with the bowery boys then on TV. An interesting thing was he got percentages of the films and owned a part of the catalog, maybe the whole thing later on. When they began running on TV and even in the theaters again, he became fairly wealthy much like the King family who owned all the Little Rascals and tons of old movie catalogs that most people thought were worthless. He was very proud of that, it was a smart thing to do at that time. Most of those guys like Abbot and Costello, The Three Stooges and a lot of the actors back then ended up broke. This pool room was a cool place, It was called "The House Of Lords" and was part of a chain and it was inside a mall, which was a new thing back then, in a place called Coral Ridge. This was an exclusion area and people like Johnny Carson, Rocky Marciano, Mickey Rooney, Andy Griffith, Jackie Gleason, Phillis McGuire and more had homes there. Even Sam Giancana lived there when he was in Florida. Julius Boros who played golf at the Coral Ridge country club and I believe was the pro there liked to play pool. You never knew who he may come in with to play a few racks after a round of golf, Bing Crosby, Jerry Lewis, who ever may be in town. I even worked at the pool room for a while. They didn't all come in the pool room but it was cool to see them walk by as they went shopping. I guess for people in New York or LA. this would be nothing but for us South Florida hicks this was big stuff. Hall came in from almost the first day the room opened, He would play or just sit around holding court drinking a soda, really a nice guy.

bustah360
05-18-2005, 04:22 PM
First things first smartass. For slow ppl like jimmy here, I did say making a replica of a cue isn't right. Now if it isn't right then what hell do you think the answer is gonna be!? If you need things more clearer than that then you have no right to call me clueless.

As far as original designs, I didn't say there weren't any, just few. Now if you think that all the cues you've played with, or the ones that your friends have played with are completely original in the entire design then lemme just say you're full of sh*t!

Now as far as some cuemakers making whatever the customer wants, they are out there. What would I get out of lying about this? Maybe not the more popular builders out there but there are some no names that would. Btw, I'm sorry if I'm not deep enough for you with my posts, I speak plainly, don't like it? Very simple...DONT REPLY

On another note, I'd like to ask others something. If customer doesnt know any better and he asks a builder for a design that was already done before, he can't be accused of trying to copy, right?

Scott Lee
05-18-2005, 09:08 PM
Marty...The cops already have the "proof" (and have had for over a year now), and are satisfied that it is MY cue. The hard part has been getting the other person into court. Since we both live in different states than where the case is being adjudicated (PA), they have been able to get it continued several times. So far, I've had a half dozen court dates, that so far, this person has escapted. Hopefully this will be a done deal this summer. You can only b.s. a judge so many times... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott

bustah360
05-19-2005, 05:54 AM
Your cue was stolen and you actually found it in someone's possession in another state? Wow! What are the odds on that?! How did you end up finding it again?

Barbara
05-19-2005, 06:20 AM
Geez Scott, I can't believe this hasn't been settled yet.

Barbara

Scott Lee
05-19-2005, 11:54 AM
Cue was pictured in March 04 BD article...even showed my NAME on the cue (but attributed by the author to Sang Lee, instead of me)! LOL Cue was stolen in ID in '91, and allegedly "purchased" in FL 3 months later by a 'cue collector'! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif After seeing the cue in BD, I actually SAW the cue in that 'collector's booth at Valley Forge, 2 weeks later, and notified the authorities, who are handling the case!

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
05-19-2005, 12:02 PM
Barbara...The "wheels of justice" move VERY slowly, especially when the defendant is allowed to continually delay the process. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif This WILL be settled this summer, I am assured by the local police. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

catscradle
05-19-2005, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Marty...The cops already have the "proof" (and have had for over a year now), and are satisfied that it is MY cue. The hard part has been getting the other person into court. Since we both live in different states than where the case is being adjudicated (PA), they have been able to get it continued several times. So far, I've had a half dozen court dates, that so far, this person has escapted. Hopefully this will be a done deal this summer. You can only b.s. a judge so many times... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott
<hr /></blockquote>

I can understand the guy doesn't want to take the financial loss (I'm assuming he bought it and isn't the one who stole it), but a standup guy would do just that and return your cue.
Don't let him wriggle out of this.

Barbara
05-19-2005, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> I can understand the guy doesn't want to take the financial loss (I'm assuming he bought it and isn't the one who stole it), but a standup guy would do just that and return your cue.
Don't let him wriggle out of this.
<hr /></blockquote>

You would think. So what does this say about the "current owner"? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Barbara

szambushka
05-19-2005, 01:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Replicating a current cuemaker's cue would be downright unethical imo.
Replicating a classic cue, maybe not so bad. <hr /></blockquote>

Why is this? The guy who first put certain patterns of pearl inlay into a cue ISNT protected? Why isn't he given the same rights as Ernie Guiterez or Stroud?

Szammy

szambushka
05-19-2005, 01:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Any thoughts against asking a cue builder to replicate a specific cue to every possible detail except for the signature of course? I saw a cue while surfing the web and it already sold, great pictures still posted there. I thought about the possibility of replicating it, if it is perfectly ethical. How's this idea fly???sid

<hr /></blockquote>

In this day and age with the CNC abilities most cuemakers have it is very easy to make exact copies, there are also many people making a nice solid cue. This leads to the 2 things that set cue makers aside,
1) Name and reputation.
2) Designs
The key is the design, it's what makes or breaks cuemakers and it's all they really have. It's their heart and soul, it's their art.
IMO any cuemaker who would do it is nothing more then a hack and a thief. If they had any artistic ability and skill they should be offended at anyone who even thought of asking them to STEAL a design. There is no God given right for you to be able to have something just because you liked it. I like a Lamborghini, I can't afford it I wouldn't go to Saturn and ask them to make me one for 1/5 the price.
I think what you need to do is call the person who made it in the first place if you really like it, after all it's his work you like and he should be rewarded for doing something you like and not stolen from because of it.
You should also take into consideration that a person may have come up with it and contracted the cuemaker, it could be an original design thought up by a customer and not a cuemaker and the person may have paid extra to have it be a 1 of a kind, think how you'd feel if someone had an exact cue that you drew up on a bar napkin one night in a drunken fog. The main point is it's stealing and any cuemaker worth his salt won't copy a design. I know there are a few people who will argue this point and most of them have either stole designs before or have profited from these thefts. You don't need to take my word on this you can call any *REAL* cuemaker and ask what they think.
Call Ginacue, Call Jerry McWorter, Ask Thomas Wayne, or E-mail Edwin Reyes, any cuemaker who has ever worked hard to create something original, anyone who takes pride in making something their own.
It's Wrong!
It's Wrong.
It's Wrong!

JB&lt;---Holding back

P.S. Can I ask why you donít call the original person who made it and ask them if you can Buy/Barrow the design, or better yet why not ask them to make it???
<hr /></blockquote>

Can I ask.. didn't Thomas Wayne make cues similar to South West? Didn't Stroud used to make similar cues to Gina?

Szammy

szambushka
05-19-2005, 01:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> Sid,

I needed to get a Palmer butt sleeve re-made. I sent the request to at least 10 different cue makers.

I was willing to spend whatever it took, supply the parts to duplicate, supply detailed photos, supply the window material etc.

Not one wanted to do it. I'm still looking.

Chris

<hr /></blockquote>

Try Rubino.. he may do it.

Szammy

SpiderMan
05-19-2005, 01:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote szambushka:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> Sid,

I needed to get a Palmer butt sleeve re-made. I sent the request to at least 10 different cue makers.

I was willing to spend whatever it took, supply the parts to duplicate, supply detailed photos, supply the window material etc.

Not one wanted to do it. I'm still looking.

Chris

<hr /></blockquote>

Try Rubino.. he may do it.

Szammy <hr /></blockquote>

Also try Alex Brick in Memphis. He once told me that he was making a replica of an old Palmer for someone.

SpiderMan

Scott Lee
05-19-2005, 02:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> I can understand the guy doesn't want to take the financial loss (I'm assuming he bought it and isn't the one who stole it), but a standup guy would do just that and return your cue.
Don't let him wriggle out of this.
<hr /></blockquote>

You would think. So what does this say about the "current owner"? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

catscradle...I have NO intention of "letting him wiggle out it." The law is quite clear on stolen property, no matter how one comes to have it in their possession (legally or not), or for how long.

Barbara...Yeah, what DOES it say about him? Especially someone with at LEAST $500,000 in assets! Not my fault that he paid money for a what later turned out to be a stolen cue (btw, he claims it was broken, so he couldn't have paid too much). Not my fault that he has had the cue for as long as I owned it, prior to it being stolen. Not my problem that he put SOME $$$ into having the cue restored by Ernie, and had two new shafts made (to go with the 3 I already had...one of which is STILL in my possession). My only real error was believing him when he told the police and me that he would return the cue, when I provided him with proof that it was mine. I could have had the police confiscate the cue at the time (they offered), and should have!...20/20 hindsight! /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

We should probably take this to another thread. It has nothing to do with the topic.

Scott

SpiderMan
05-19-2005, 02:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> I can understand the guy doesn't want to take the financial loss (I'm assuming he bought it and isn't the one who stole it), but a standup guy would do just that and return your cue.
Don't let him wriggle out of this.
<hr /></blockquote>

You would think. So what does this say about the "current owner"? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

catscradle...I have NO intention of "letting him wiggle out it." The law is quite clear on stolen property, no matter how one comes to have it in their possession (legally or not), or for how long.

Barbara...Yeah, what DOES it say about him? Especially someone with at LEAST $500,000 in assets! Not my fault that he paid money for a what later turned out to be a stolen cue (btw, he claims it was broken, so he couldn't have paid too much). Not my fault that he has had the cue for as long as I owned it, prior to it being stolen. Not my problem that he put SOME $$$ into having the cue restored by Ernie, and had two new shafts made (to go with the 3 I already had...one of which is STILL in my possession). My only real error was believing him when he told the police and me that he would return the cue, when I provided him with proof that it was mine. I could have had the police confiscate the cue at the time (they offered), and should have!...20/20 hindsight! /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

We should probably take this to another thread. It has nothing to do with the topic.

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

Very interesting topic, though. BTW, why protect the guy's reputation by not naming him, since he's not cooperating anyway? Remember, it's not slander unless it's false!

Others may benefit from the knowlege, and avoid dealing with a crook.

SpiderMan

Barbara
05-19-2005, 02:49 PM
Scott,

I don't live too far from Norristown PA. Let me know when your next court date will be. Maybe I can make it there for support (for you).

Or you can come on over to my house for support afterwards.

Barbara

Cueless Joey
05-19-2005, 03:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Can I ask.. didn't Thomas Wayne make cues similar to South West? Didn't Stroud used to make similar cues to Gina?
<hr /></blockquote>
TW made the infamous NorthWest cues one time. Jerry Franklin was really peed-off according to a friend of mine who is a huge cue collector.
I saw one of those NW's from an employee at Hard Times a few years back.

szambushka
05-19-2005, 04:24 PM
old news (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=149213&amp;Forum=cc b&amp;Words=stolen%20cue%20lee&amp;Match=And&amp;Searchpage=0&amp; Limit=25&amp;Old=allposts&amp;Main=148793&amp;Search=true#Post 149213)

Is this the same incident?
Whats it got to do with cue designs?

Szammy

szambushka
05-19-2005, 04:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Can I ask.. didn't Thomas Wayne make cues similar to South West? Didn't Stroud used to make similar cues to Gina?
<hr /></blockquote>
TW made the infamous NorthWest cues one time. Jerry Franklin was really peed-off according to a friend of mine who is a huge cue collector.
I saw one of those NW's from an employee at Hard Times a few years back. <hr /></blockquote>

I just found it ironic that he would be used to solidify an arguement about cue design theft.

Szammy

Pizza Bob
05-19-2005, 04:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Can I ask.. didn't Thomas Wayne make cues similar to South West? Didn't Stroud used to make similar cues to Gina?
<hr /></blockquote>
TW made the infamous NorthWest cues one time. Jerry Franklin was really peed-off according to a friend of mine who is a huge cue collector.
I saw one of those NW's from an employee at Hard Times a few years back. <hr /></blockquote>

The way I heard this story (and I got it from Thomas - so take that into consideration) is that he (Thomas) was at some function with Jerry Franklin who, tongue-in-cheek (maybe) boasted, "No one can build a cue as good as I can!" To which Thomas replied, "I can!" and the "Northwest" series of cues was born. Thomas actually called them his Exotic Hardwoods line. I have an Amboynia and Ebony one.

Thomas was a good example - previous story aside - because he was ripped-off for one of his most famous designs. That was the snake skeleton wrapped around an ebony butt. A Taiwanese decal copy was all over the place and he was quite displeased.

Re; The SW copies - and I use that term loosely - they are such a basic design that it would be hard for anyone to make a claim that they "invented" it. Granted, it is the design that SW is best known for - but not sure that makes it their intellectual property. Something like Wayne's skeleton cue is a little easier to claim.

The cue world lost a true artist when Thomas decided to "retire".

Adios,

Pizza Bob

Scott Lee
05-19-2005, 08:19 PM
Marty...There are several people here who know who I'm talking about, including some who have had poor business dealings with him as well. There are also some here who, for some odd reason, don't think he is liable. Fortunately, the police don't agree...but it still up to a judge to decide. Although I won't name him outright...YET...I'll be happy to tell anyone who's interested exactly who he, and what prominent pool-related business he owns. All you need to do is PM me. When my business with him is done, I'll be happy to "out" him here publicly.

Scott

Jimmy B
05-20-2005, 01:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote szambushka:</font><hr>
Can I ask.. didn't Thomas Wayne make cues similar to South West? Didn't Stroud used to make similar cues to Gina?

Szammy <hr /></blockquote>

Why ask a question you know the answer to?
I would also add no matter who does it I think it's wrong, and I would also add that similar is NOT an exact copy. I also have some inside info on why TW made SW style cues and it was to make a point, IMO the wrong way to go about it.

JB

Jimmy B
05-20-2005, 01:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Scott,

I don't live too far from Norristown PA. Let me know when your next court date will be. Maybe I can make it there for support (for you).

Or you can come on over to my house for support afterwards.

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

Barb, you have me a bit confused, do you know the person in question is one of your so called pals??

JB

Jimmy B
05-20-2005, 01:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Marty...There are several people here who know who I'm talking about, including some who have had poor business dealings with him as well. There are also some here who, for some odd reason, don't think he is liable.
Scott <hr /></blockquote>

First of all I am one here who happens to know both people and both sides of the issue and I agree with both sides if it's possible. I can see being on either side and I can think how I would like to handle it if were I. Now that being said and since I hate when people hint and beat around the bush, and Iím no hypocrite, it's Classiccues.com who has the cue. Mark's been known to be shady on some other deals as well, but in this case I think Scott has some responsibility to bear. Just my opinion of course and I have no interest in either side so I could not care less who wins, I do hope Scott gets what's his.

JB

eg8r
05-20-2005, 06:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Why ask a question you know the answer to?
<hr /></blockquote> I am happy he asked the question. Not everyone on the board knows all this history about cue making and it makes for a good read. I think his point is pretty clear, even the greats did knock-offs. Just because he was trying to prove a point (right way or wrong way) does not matter.

Alright, keep the stories (maybe not really stories /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) coming. I know nothing about the history of cues.

eg8r

Barbara
05-20-2005, 06:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr>
Barb, you have me a bit confused, do you know the person in question is one of your so called pals??

JB <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah Jimmy, I know who's involved.

Barbara

szambushka
05-20-2005, 07:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Why ask a question you know the answer to?
<hr /></blockquote> I am happy he asked the question. Not everyone on the board knows all this history about cue making and it makes for a good read. I think his point is pretty clear, even the greats did knock-offs. Just because he was trying to prove a point (right way or wrong way) does not matter.

Alright, keep the stories (maybe not really stories /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) coming. I know nothing about the history of cues.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Eg8r,
Thanks.. and to further the point, why support someone that does what you have a problem with? I thought he posted that he wasn't a hypocrite? That in itself is hypocritical, right?

Szammy

szambushka
05-20-2005, 07:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote szambushka:</font><hr>
Can I ask.. didn't Thomas Wayne make cues similar to South West? Didn't Stroud used to make similar cues to Gina?

Szammy <hr /></blockquote>

Why ask a question you know the answer to?
I would also add no matter who does it I think it's wrong, and I would also add that similar is NOT an exact copy. I also have some inside info on why TW made SW style cues and it was to make a point, IMO the wrong way to go about it.

JB <hr /></blockquote>

JB,
So let me ask you. is similar OK and "exact" copies, not?

Szammy

SpiderMan
05-20-2005, 07:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Marty...There are several people here who know who I'm talking about, including some who have had poor business dealings with him as well. There are also some here who, for some odd reason, don't think he is liable. Fortunately, the police don't agree...but it still up to a judge to decide. Although I won't name him outright...YET...I'll be happy to tell anyone who's interested exactly who he, and what prominent pool-related business he owns. All you need to do is PM me. When my business with him is done, I'll be happy to "out" him here publicly.
Scott <hr /></blockquote>
Scott,

I just read the old thread regarding this case, somehow I had missed it before. In my opinion, your offer to reimburse $1000 in restoration expenses was extremely generous. That it was refused implies to me that the current "owner" just can't accept not making a profit on his "deal".

As far as asking for proof that the cue was actually stolen from you, that's reasonable. I assume he's provided proof that he acquired it in a legitimate deal. That would keep him out of hot water as far as the original theft or fencing of the cue is concerned, as long as he doesn't try to "steal" it from you in the present tense.

Good luck in court!

SpiderMan

Rackin_Zack
05-20-2005, 08:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote szambushka:</font><hr>JB,
So let me ask you. is similar OK and "exact" copies, not?

Szammy <hr /></blockquote>

I find this an interesting topic and thought I'd get people's opinion. Is my cue design theft or not?!

http://www.missouri.edu/~richardsonz/Skip_Weston/BurlButt05_Small.jpg
http://www.missouri.edu/~richardsonz/Skip_Weston/BurlForearm02_Small.jpg

Popcorn
05-20-2005, 08:16 AM
There are no real design uniqueness to that cue. Some points, rings a few segmented rings, nothing new or different. The choice of materials and colors are what set it apart. With very little going on the cue is remarkably elegant. That is a great example of the designer having an artistic sense of less is better. The woods themselves create a one of a kind design. Nice cue, who made it?

SpiderMan
05-20-2005, 08:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> There are no real design uniqueness to that cue. Some points, rings a few segmented rings, nothing new or different. The choice of materials and colors are what set it apart. With very little going on the cue is remarkably elegant. That is a great example of the designer having an artistic sense of less is better. The woods themselves create a one of a kind design. Nice cue, who made it? <hr /></blockquote>

C'mon Popcorn, it's so obviously a "Skip Weston" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

Rackin_Zack
05-20-2005, 08:53 AM
I designed it, Skip Weston made it! Thanks for your input.

Popcorn
05-20-2005, 09:14 AM
I figured that out by right clicking on the picture and is part of the name of the picture. How can you tell?

mtuckeriii
05-20-2005, 09:27 AM
Nice Thomas Wayne you have there Zack /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Scott Lee
05-20-2005, 09:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr>Mark's been known to be shady on some other deals as well, but in this case I think Scott has some responsibility to bear. Just my opinion of course and I have no interest in either side so I could not care less who wins, I do hope Scott gets what's his.

JB
<hr /></blockquote>

Jimmy...Please clarify this for me! Why do you think I have ANY responsibility in this (other than proving it was originally my cue, and that it was indeed stolen from me years ago. I have done both of those things, to the satisfaction of the local police...enough so, that THEY are the ones prosecuting the case, not ME)? Is it because I brought the police to Mark Kulungian's POOL TABLE MAGIC/Classic Cues booth? Tell me how that matters? It was suggested to me by two other prominent cue collectors (independently), also there at VF, to take this action (specifically, to document with the authorities, that MY stolen property was there, in Mark's booth, at that time). When I called the police, I ASKED for a plain clothes officer, so as not to attract attention to Mark's booth. Unfortunately a uniformed officer showed up, and I had no choice, but to take him to the booth and show him the cue...and then have a discussion with Mark. I apologized to Mark for this "intrusion", and he accepted my apology and shook my hand (and also "accepted" my offer of $1000 as some restitution for his 'loss'...which he later reniged on)!

Since you don't like "beating around the bush", please explain your point of view!

Respectfully,

Scott Lee

mtuckeriii
05-20-2005, 09:46 AM
A direct copy of a cue is wrong. There is nothing wrong with using some design elements that you like but give your cuemaker the opportunity to add their own touches to the cue.

szambushka
05-20-2005, 10:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
Jimmy...Please clarify this for me! Why do you think I have ANY responsibility in this (other than proving it was originally my cue, and that it was indeed stolen from me years ago. I have done both of those things, to the satisfaction of the local police...enough so, that THEY are the ones prosecuting the case, not ME)? Is it because I brought the police to Mark Kulungian's POOL TABLE MAGIC/Classic Cues booth? Tell me how that matters? It was suggested to me by two other prominent cue collectors (independently), also there at VF, to take this action (specifically, to document with the authorities, that MY stolen property was there, in Mark's booth, at that time). When I called the police, I ASKED for a plain clothes officer, so as not to attract attention to Mark's booth. Unfortunately a uniformed officer showed up, and I had no choice, but to take him to the booth and show him the cue...and then have a discussion with Mark. I apologized to Mark for this "intrusion", and he accepted my apology and shook my hand (and also "accepted" my offer of $1000 as some restitution for his 'loss'...which he later reniged on)!

Since you don't like "beating around the bush", please explain your point of view!

Respectfully,

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Scott,
After reading through both threads on this matter, I have a question or two.. You stated to have the cue insured when it was stolen in 1991, and that you decided against the submitting a claim because the deductable was more than the cues value, is this correct? I could estimate within reason that this cue had a value of around 1500.00 at that time. (I am looking at the article and assuming its the Gina in the article) Second, what did you show the police for proof of ownership?

Szammy...

Scott Lee
05-20-2005, 10:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Scott,

I just read the old thread regarding this case, somehow I had missed it before. In my opinion, your offer to reimburse $1000 in restoration expenses was extremely generous. That it was refused implies to me that the current "owner" just can't accept not making a profit on his "deal".

As far as asking for proof that the cue was actually stolen from you, that's reasonable. I assume he's provided proof that he acquired it in a legitimate deal. That would keep him out of hot water as far as the original theft or fencing of the cue is concerned, as long as he doesn't try to "steal" it from you in the present tense.

Good luck in court!

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Marty...I provided the "proof" requested by Mark Kulungian, to him via certified mail, within 10 days of filing the police report in King of Prussia, PA. After receiving a 'certified letter' from his attorney (he wouldn't even return my phone calls or emails), denying my ownership of the cue, I contacted the police again, and sent them copies of all the evidence, proving the cue is mine. Mark, on the other hand, has NOT provided ANY documentation of when, where, or whom he bought the cue from (although he told me in our initial conversation, BEFORE I called the police, that he had purchased the cue in July, 1991, from someone in FL, that he declined to name). BTW, the cue was stolen from me in April, 1991 (although at the time, I thought it had been 1989...the police report in ID cleared that up).

When the cue was stolen from me, it was in excellent condition (Stroud refinished it, put a new wrap on it, and made a matching shaft for it, in 1984...along with inscribing my name in the silver block in the butt sleeve), with the exception of a broken butt cap. The grey carmelized plastic butt cap was broken...that happened a few years after Stroud refinished the cue, when I accidentally dropped the cue out of my case, and it hit the concrete, right on the butt cap. You can see that in the picture in the March 03 BD article. Mark insisted that the cue was "a total wreck" and broken in pieces, when he acquired it...some THREE MONTHS LATER.

Mark also "claimed" that he had spent $2000 to have the cue 'restored' by Ernie, and two new shafts built to match the cue. Interestingly, according to Ernie's own information, that "work" could not have cost more than a few hundred dollars...certainly nothing even close to $2K! LOL However, in the interest of trying to be fair to him, upon recommendation from the other two cue collectors I consulted, I made the offer of $1000 to Mark (even though the police strictly stated to him, that he was entitled to NO compensation, regardless of what he allegedly put into the cue)!

Hmmmm...somebody stole a valuable old 8-point Ginacue (60's vintage), and then TRASHED it in a short time? That doesn't ring true to me at all...although anything is possible. Do I believe Mark Kulungian, a BCA Certified Instructor, professional trick shot artist, and owner of successful billiards retail store, Pool Table Magic, in CT, STOLE the cue from me? Certainly not! I didn't even know Mark then...and I have my suspicions as to who stole the cue from me in ID. Do I believe that Mark should have known the cue was stolen when he "purchased" it just 3 months after it was stolen...absolutely. He has been in the cue biz for decades, and KNOWS a 'bargain' when he sees one, especially one that is probably too good to be true! LOL If Mark were a "standup guy", we wouldn't be here talking about this now! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

It's out of my hands now, and a judge will decide...as soon as we can force Mr. Kunlungian to show up in court. Or, he can NOT show up, and see what happens then!

Scott

Scott Lee
05-20-2005, 10:25 AM
Szammy...No offense, but I'm not sure who you are, nor what business it is of yours what my documentation of ownership was. Suffice it to say that the police were convinced by my "evidence", as proof of ownership. As for your opinion of the value of the cue...Stroud appraised it at slightly more than half of what you thought it was worth, in 1984, in writing. My deductable was high enough to make it not worth it.

Scott Lee

SpiderMan
05-20-2005, 10:35 AM
At the bottom of the original post, beneath Zack's signature, it says Cue: Skip Weston /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

SpiderMan

Scott Lee
05-20-2005, 10:53 AM
Szammy...Yes, that is the same incident. There were two or three threads about it last year. You're right, it has nothing to do with this thread topic...which, if you READ the whole thread, you'd see that I already suggested moving this discussion to another thread, as it was off-topic. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott Lee

Jimmy B
05-20-2005, 11:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote szambushka:</font><hr>
JB,
So let me ask you. is similar OK and "exact" copies, not?

Szammy <hr /></blockquote>

I think there is a large grey area and I'm sure it's not up to me, but I do have my own way of viewing it. There are some designs that have been done so much or that are so basic that I don't think you can claim ownership of design. For example simple 4 or 6 point cues, where it gets bad IMO is to copy the same ringwork or the exact demensions when it comes to the but section of a SW. In short I think when you look at a cue and say "that's a Gina" or "that's a SW" it crossed the line. But I am speaking more about more complex designs, or 1 of a kind type stuff like a Rasputen (Gina), Black Baron (Black), or St. Patrick's Nightmare (TW). Again it's not up to me to decide but I think most people who have seen a lot of cues know who owns what designs and who knocks them off.

JB

Jimmy B
05-20-2005, 11:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mtuckeriii:</font><hr> Nice Thomas Wayne you have there Zack /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

LOL

JB

szambushka
05-20-2005, 11:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Szammy...No offense, but I'm not sure who you are, nor what business it is of yours what my documentation of ownership was. Suffice it to say that the police were convinced by my "evidence", as proof of ownership. As for your opinion of the value of the cue...Stroud appraised it at slightly more than half of what you thought it was worth, in 1984, in writing. My deductable was high enough to make it not worth it.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

I am just curious and you can see I started a different thread for some general opinions. BTW 1984 before the boom, the cue was worth half that amount, in the same token a 4 point Szamboti cost me 400.00. So in 1991 when Szambotis were now 4000.00 its same to assume your cue would have also increased in value.

Szammy

szambushka
05-20-2005, 11:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr>
I think there is a large grey area and I'm sure it's not up to me, but I do have my own way of viewing it. There are some designs that have been done so much or that are so basic that I don't think you can claim ownership of design. For example simple 4 or 6 point cues, where it gets bad IMO is to copy the same ringwork or the exact demensions when it comes to the but section of a SW. In short I think when you look at a cue and say "that's a Gina" or "that's a SW" it crossed the line. But I am speaking more about more complex designs, or 1 of a kind type stuff like a Rasputen (Gina), Black Baron (Black), or St. Patrick's Nightmare (TW). Again it's not up to me to decide but I think most people who have seen a lot of cues know who owns what designs and who knocks them off.

JB <hr /></blockquote>

Is it fair to say, as its been said earlier that with CNC there is no way to judge a complex design? Or can we say that in time all designs become basic?

Szammy

Rackin_Zack
05-20-2005, 12:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote mtuckeriii:</font><hr> Nice Thomas Wayne you have there Zack /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

LOL

JB <hr /></blockquote>

That was pretty funny. I guess that it's a "Northwest" inspired cue...lol.

Popcorn
05-20-2005, 02:44 PM
I have that stuff turn off.

Jimmy B
05-20-2005, 02:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
Since you don't like "beating around the bush", please explain your point of view!

Respectfully,

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

First off as I've already said I like to look at things from both sides. I have no trouble with you calling the cops and bringing them to the booth, if you hadn't who knows if the cue would have been there later if you tried to work it out on your own. If it were my cue I think I would have just walked over and took it, I'm sure that would have lead to a bigger problem, but I'm a little bigger and younger then you and prolly don't share your patience. My point of view from the other side is that what I bought is what I would give you if you weren't willing to pay the cost of the repairs, mind you I said repairs, not the cost of buying the stolen cue. If Mark has a reciept from Ernie showing $2,000 for new shafts and a refinish I feel you should pay that and be more then happy, or IMO I'd keep the shafts and sand the but down and give it to you. After all those shafts aren't yours and neither is the new wrap and finish. I don't see how you can lay any claim to the shafts, specially knowing you said you still have one of the original ones. I think I would be so happy to get it back the price would be small to pay and it's things you'd have to do to the cue anyway to use it or sell it. Again, not taking sides I know both of you guys and don't really like one any more or less then the other. Maybe I'm off and you can explain why you feel you should get the shafts. Now if Mark knew it was stolen and put the money into it he'd be up [censored]'s creek, but I think we both know that if he did know this he would not have been so public with the cue.
Again Scott I think it's great you got a cue back and after reading some of your posts I wonder how it is you get so many cues stolen, from memory I think this is the second or 3rd cue that you've had stolen?? What the hell do you do to get such bad luck?

Hope you understand my opinion on the topic from this, I'm not looking to take sides or piss anyone off.

JB

Cane
05-20-2005, 03:41 PM
JB,
Just my opinion, but if someone steals your car, puts a new motor in it and then it's recovered, are you supposed to take the motor out and say "Oh, No problem. Even though it was in very good condition when it was stolen, I feel bad that you put a new motor in it, so you can just keep that"? NO! If you have property STOLEN, then that property, when recovered, is YOURS, regardless of either improvement or damage. I wouldn't really care if the one in possession of the property was out any money or not, the plain simple fact of the matter is that he is in possession of STOLEN PROPERTY. The cue, the shafts, the finish, everything that is there and is considered a part of the whole belongs to Scott Lee PERIOD! Why should Scott, who had the cue STOLEN from him, be liable for the person in possession of it having shafts made or refinish work done or anything else for that matter? Is it his responsibility to make sure that neither work or damage was done to his STOLEN property. Notice I keep capitalizing the word STOLEN. That is the plain simple fact. The cue was STOLEN. The person in possession of it now is in possession of stolen property, and personally, if it were me, I'd cough up the cue and thank my lucky stars Scott wasn't pushing the District Attorney to prosecute me for being in possession of his stolen property. Scott is an aquaintence of mine, and not really a friend. We've only met once last August and corresponded a few times via email, but that's it. So I'm not taking this stand because it's Scott, I'm taking this stand because it's what is RIGHT. I've had cues stolen from me. As a matter of fact, burglars broke into our pool room last year and stole 4 of my personal cues, ones that were very special to me. If I find them, I really won't give a rats ass if the guy who has them bought them, traded for them, stole them or whatever. I would just want my cues back, but if someone bought one of my $1500 cues for $200 and had new shafts made for it, well, that's just too bad for them. It's neither my problem nor my responsibility if someone spent money on them, or had improvements done or whatever. They are MY cues and they would and should rightfully be returned to me. SCREW THE GUY WHO HAS THEM! I personally would hope that if he innocently come into possession of them, that he would be man enough to give them back. If not, then I wouldn't be as patient as Scott apparently has. I would immediately petition the District Attorney's office to file formal charges against them, arrest and prosecute them. After all, if they did come by them "honestly" then they should have no problem returning them to the rightful owner and giving the police the name of the person they got them from, should they...

Later,
Bob &lt;&lt;&lt;Hates a damn thief worse than anything else and doesn't think ANY monetary compensation should be due to either a thief or someone who recieves STOLEN property, knowingly or not... by the way, the law doesn't think they should either...

Rackin_Zack
05-20-2005, 03:56 PM
I agree with everything you said, except for the shafts part. If someone has shafts made for the cue that does not entitle you to those shafts. Seeing as how they are not physically connected to the part that was/is yours, they belong to the person that paid for them. If the cue was refinished or had other work done on stock shafts or butt then the person is SOL.

szambushka
05-20-2005, 04:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rackin_Zack:</font><hr> I agree with everything you said, except for the shafts part. If someone has shafts made for the cue that does not entitle you to those shafts. Seeing as how they are not physically connected to the part that was/is yours, they belong to the person that paid for them. If the cue was refinished or had other work done on stock shafts or butt then the person is SOL. <hr /></blockquote>

This is interesting. Kind of goes along the line if Scott reported it was in a case and then the cue ended up in a 500 dollar fellini, you would bet your but that it would be in a 5 dollar vinyl case quite quick. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I could see a ruling on the shafts since they could be seperated from the cue easily, not like a car motor. Maybe a better anology is fuzzy dice. lol

Szammy

Scott Lee
05-20-2005, 07:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> First off as I've already said I like to look at things from both sides. I have no trouble with you calling the cops and bringing them to the booth, if you hadn't who knows if the cue would have been there later if you tried to work it out on your own. If it were my cue I think I would have just walked over and took it, I'm sure that would have lead to a bigger problem, but I'm a little bigger and younger then you and prolly don't share your patience. My point of view from the other side is that what I bought is what I would give you if you weren't willing to pay the cost of the repairs, mind you I said repairs, not the cost of buying the stolen cue. If Mark has a reciept from Ernie showing $2,000 for new shafts and a refinish I feel you should pay that and be more then happy, or IMO I'd keep the shafts and sand the but down and give it to you. After all those shafts aren't yours and neither is the new wrap and finish. I don't see how you can lay any claim to the shafts, specially knowing you said you still have one of the original ones. I think I would be so happy to get it back the price would be small to pay and it's things you'd have to do to the cue anyway to use it or sell it. Again, not taking sides I know both of you guys and don't really like one any more or less then the other. Maybe I'm off and you can explain why you feel you should get the shafts. Now if Mark knew it was stolen and put the money into it he'd be up [censored]'s creek, but I think we both know that if he did know this he would not have been so public with the cue.
Again Scott I think it's great you got a cue back and after reading some of your posts I wonder how it is you get so many cues stolen, from memory I think this is the second or 3rd cue that you've had stolen?? What the hell do you do to get such bad luck?

Hope you understand my opinion on the topic from this, I'm not looking to take sides or piss anyone off.

JB <hr /></blockquote>

Jimmy...Thanks for your view! To answer your questions...
the cue was in Mark's LOCKED glass case, with his other not-for-sale cues. So unless I wanted to smash the case to take the cue (which would make me criminally liable), that was not viable. I offered Mark $1000 CASH...surely that would cover the cost of building two shafts (if he spent $2000 to 'restore' the cue, SHOW me a receipt)! Ernie does not charge that kind of money for a refinish job and two shafts. I can see paying Mark for the two new shafts, at Ernie's published rate, not some pie-in-the-sky figure.

Perhaps the cue WAS broken, and it cost that much to repair. I don't know, and it doesn't matter. It's interesting to note that Mark kept the cue, in whatever condition he got it, for many years. He told me he decided to have Ernie restore it, after being interviewed by Sue (Martyne) Bachman for the article, and the article itself mentioned that the cue had been returned to the maker. That's what clued me to look up Ernie asap!

You're correct in that I would certainly like to have my cue back. The fact that it is now a premium cue, in premium condition, is irrelevant to the legal situation.
Without HAVING to, I tried to make a fair offer to Mark, which he accepted, and then changed his mind, 3 days later, when we were to meet to exchange money and cue. The offer amount was suggested by the other collectors, not just made up by me. If he would have said, "Give me the two grand I have in the cue, and it's yours right now!", I would have likely done that! However, he balked completely, at the last minute, and in our private meeting, went into a little "tirade", for which he brought in a "3rd party" to be a witness! LOL

I'm sure Mark thought the cue was legit, especially after having possession of it for so many years. He was certainly proud of the cue, hence it's inclusion in his "private stash" case, for others to view!

As far as having cues stolen...I've owned 35 cues over a period of 34 years...only 3 have been stolen! Many were bought just for my 'collection'. Others were purchased to play with. The Meucci was stolen in a bar when I wasn't looking...my fault! It was a stroke of luck, that I happened to be in a bar a month later and saw a guy playing with my cue. He had bought it from somebody else, but had to return it to me. I think he was out $50.

My Josswest was stolen, along with my car! I had just returned from a trip to CO, OK &amp; TX, doing exhibitions with Jack White, and my car was still packed with all my suits, clothes, cues, etc. It was late at night, in winter, and I left the car running, with the doors locked, while I ran in to pick up my last league envelope for that week's APA play. They weren't quite done, so I sat down to wait, not thinking anything about my car, since it WAS locked. The thieves drove my car about a mile and ditched it in a snowbank, with the doors open and the engine running. It was recovered a half hour later. Thankfully, the thieves did not see the other three cues in the back seat, under my clothes, or I would have been out a hell of a lot more! My Joss was in the front seat, and they just grabbed what they could quickly, and ran. I still believe it was high school kids, out for a "lark", and that the cue is still sitting in someone's basement here where I live!

As far as the Gina...I was playing with the cue in a tournament in ID. I was on the top of the winner's side at the end of the first day. Someone (I think it was someone in the tournament) broke into my car at my hotel that night (different car) to steal that cue! The next day I was so upset that I couldn't even finish the tournament, and went down to the police station to fill out a very detailed police report. So...1 out of 3 I admit to being careless. The other two WERE indeed, just bad luck!

I just want to get this whole ugly mess over with! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott Lee

Jimmy B
05-21-2005, 08:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> JB,
Just my opinion, but if someone steals your car, puts a new motor in it and then it's recovered, are you supposed to take the motor out and say "Oh, No problem. <hr /></blockquote>

Cane I think you're reading me wrong, I'm not against Scott and I already said if it were me I would have already taken the cue back, I think he's a saint for the patience he has shown. Also after reading his post it seems that there isn't proof that mark spent what he said he spent, I thought there was a reciept. As far as the motor thing goes I think it's a bad analogy, if someone stole my car and did anything they would be in deep [censored], but as we already know this isn't a car and there is no way to know it was stolen, a cue can't be traced like a car. A motor also isn't like shafts, shafts aren't a part of the cue, Scott said the but of the cue was stolen and he has the shafts (or at least 1) If someone stole my car and put a baby seat in it I would want it back and I would not expect to get the baby seat with it. Also by your way of thinking Scott should get whatever case Mark had it in because it was with the cue. All I am trying to do is look at both sides of the issue. If Scott thought for 1 second Mark knew it was stolen or that Mark stole it I would have no compassion for him. In this case I believe it's just a case of bad luck for Mark and good fortune for Scott.
Again your post sounds a lot like you think I am on Mark's side, I am not.
JB

Jimmy B
05-21-2005, 08:36 AM
Scott believe me I don't think there is any reason you should not already have at least the butt end of your cue. As far as these so called collectors you keep referring to they have no clue (I'm sure I know them personally and you can tell them I said so) Ernie is expensive, Shafts run around $300 and a refinish and rewrap would bring the price up to $1,000 easily, now if the cue was warped or broken he'd have more work to do, a handle and a new butt cap can be $2,000 real fast. Now again I'd say that without a receipt from Mark, F&amp;$^% Him. I thought he had a receipt. In any event I thin you should do all you can and pursue it as far as you can just for the fact that he's busting your balls. But I still try to see both sides and I would be dame happy to have the cue back if I were you. Good luck with it and keep us posted.

JB

Regulator
05-21-2005, 09:44 AM
There seems to be a lot of words for something that is absolutely clear in law - federal and in every state, US territory and US possession.

Stolen property must be returned to the rightful owner. The rightful owner is not responsible to compensate for improvements. The rightful owner may initiate a civil action to recover for damage and wear-and-tear from a guilty party, but only for negligent damage from an innocent party.

Not having to compensate for improvements may seem unfair, but the concept goes back to old English law.

(I asked my attorney.)

Scott Lee
05-21-2005, 10:39 AM
Thanks Jimmy! When the cue was stolen, it did have two of the three shafts with it. I am still in possession of one.
No way did Ernie make a whole new handle. The butt is exactly the same as it was. Yes, there was a new buttcap made. What alleged repairs were made to the cue remains to be seen. If Ernie is getting $300 for a shaft, more power to him...but that is more than double what is listed in the latest Blue Book. It will be interesting to see how this comes out in court!

Scott Lee

Popcorn
05-21-2005, 10:57 AM
It is up to the judge and this stuff can become very complicated. Depending on the time since the cue was discovered by Scott, a judge could not only award him the cue and all it's improvements but an additional amount for him not having the use of the cue or the ability to sell it realizing a profit for that period of time. Judges have a lot of latitude and depending how the two parties conduct themselves can really screw one or the other.

My attorney had a side line where he did tax recoveries. One of the things he did was recover an illegal water tax for people who owned commercial property. One guy who owned a large office building had a recovery that was $80,000 and my friend was to get 50% of the recovery. You could go back three years and recover the money so it sometimes added up. The way it works is the money can only be returned to the person who paid the tax so there is a contract that once the person gets their money they pay my friend. This one guy just decides he isn't going to pay. My friend sues him and it drags on three years. When a judge decided the case he not only gave my friend his original $40,000 but legal fees and an additional amount for his not having the use of the money for the period of time since the guy refused to pay. To make a long story short, he gets a check for $78,000. You never know what will happen when you get in front of a judge. You act like an A-hole and you may get really screwed. Anyone who has ever been involved in a divorce can tell you the independent powers of a judge. There is also the possability a judge may say Scott has no claim to the cue at all, you just never know.

Scott Lee
05-21-2005, 08:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> There is also the possability a judge may say Scott has no claim to the cue at all, you just never know. <hr /></blockquote>

That'll be when Hell freezes over! LOL

Scott Lee

Popcorn
05-21-2005, 08:13 PM
Just trying to stay in the middle of the road although my money would be on you coming out on top based on what you have said. It will be interesting I hope you let us know how it finaly comes out.

Jimmy B
05-23-2005, 10:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Thanks Jimmy! When the cue was stolen, it did have two of the three shafts with it. I am still in possession of one.
No way did Ernie make a whole new handle. The butt is exactly the same as it was. Yes, there was a new buttcap made. What alleged repairs were made to the cue remains to be seen. If Ernie is getting $300 for a shaft, more power to him...but that is more than double what is listed in the latest Blue Book. It will be interesting to see how this comes out in court!

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Well Scott, as I've already said it all means nothing without proof of the work, but I can tell you that if you are really going by what it says in that bluebook then you are a bit off. I had a cue refinished,rewrapped (leather) and 2 shafts made from Ernie 3+ years ago and my bill was around 1,200 and I have a receipt.;-) In any event I think you made the effort and hope you get your cue back soon. I also would love to hear how it plays out If Mark brings the shafts with him or just the butt and claims that's how he got it. I'm never amazed when it comes to cue dealers as to how slimy they can be.

JB

szambushka
05-23-2005, 05:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr>
Well Scott, as I've already said it all means nothing without proof of the work, but I can tell you that if you are really going by what it says in that bluebook then you are a bit off. I had a cue refinished,rewrapped (leather) and 2 shafts made from Ernie 3+ years ago and my bill was around 1,200 and I have a receipt.;-) In any event I think you made the effort and hope you get your cue back soon. I also would love to hear how it plays out If Mark brings the shafts with him or just the butt and claims that's how he got it. I'm never amazed when it comes to cue dealers as to how slimy they can be.

JB <hr /></blockquote>

Jim B,
This is the second time you took a swipe at this particular dealer. Now I am in the market for another Balabushka and would like you honest opinion, actually since you have said you don't care one way or another, and had no problem outting him as you put it, what were these other shady deals? If I am going to lay out 12-15k on a cue I would like the heads up.

Feel free to pm me if you don't want to say anything publically.

Szammy

Jimmy B
05-24-2005, 10:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote szambushka:</font><hr>



Jim B,
This is the second time you took a swipe at this particular dealer. Now I am in the market for another Balabushka and would like you honest opinion, actually since you have said you don't care one way or another, and had no problem outting him as you put it, what were these other shady deals? If I am going to lay out 12-15k on a cue I would like the heads up.

Feel free to pm me if you don't want to say anything publically.

Szammy <hr /></blockquote>

If you read the last line of what you quoted I said I don't care for any cue dealers. Fact is if you really want a REAL Bushka you are limitted as to where to get one. There are many fakes out there and even some honest dealers have fakes and don't know. I would not trust any cue that I didn't know the history of or that I had checked out by at least 2 other sources (besides the seller. They are very big investments and you should do all the research you can. I happen to know a lot about what to look for in these cues and still I wouldn't trust my own eye. Buyer beware!!

JB

Popcorn
05-24-2005, 11:44 AM
I was at the BCA show one year and was at the ACA booth when I was a member way back. A guy comes up with a what he thought was a Balabushka cue he had just bought at one of the booths. I was there alone and told him to come back and some of the guys could have a look at it I didn't want to give an opinion, but after taking a look at the cue urged him to come back. He does come back a little later and Richard Black, Stroud, Scruggs, Burton Spain and a few others are there. They take one look at the cue and say it is not a Balabushka, not even close. They ask him where he got it and he tells them. They took a walk back to the sellers booth with the guy and when the seller saw them coming he looked pretty nervous. He quickly gave the buyer his money back and put the cue under the table without any explanation. Now, this seller was, (He is dead now) a very well known cue dealer but had no problem screwing this guy on the cue. My experience has been there are very few people you can trust, you have to do your own independent research and if you are satisfied then make the purchase.

Scott Lee
05-24-2005, 03:59 PM
Jimmy...Wow, that is a big change from the Blue Book. But that's ok. Ernie has the right to charge whatever he wants!
It will definitely be interesting to see how this plays out in court! Can't WAIT for MY day! LOL Interesting posts about Balabushkas! I had a real one, bought from George a couple of months before he died. It may have been one of his last cues. I sold it to the folks at Atlas Billiard Supply, in 1992, for 20x what I paid ('course I had the cue 17 years), and used the $$$ to buy my APA franchise! LOL
Bill Stroud refers to me as "the guy who sold a Balabushka, to KEEP a Josswest!" LOL Sadly THAT Josswest was my custom that was stolen 10 years ago, and never recovered! /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Scott Lee

szambushka
05-24-2005, 07:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr>
If you read the last line of what you quoted I said I don't care for any cue dealers. Fact is if you really want a REAL Bushka you are limitted as to where to get one. There are many fakes out there and even some honest dealers have fakes and don't know. I would not trust any cue that I didn't know the history of or that I had checked out by at least 2 other sources (besides the seller. They are very big investments and you should do all the research you can. I happen to know a lot about what to look for in these cues and still I wouldn't trust my own eye. Buyer beware!!

JB <hr /></blockquote>

JB,
Thats not what I asked you. Since you have this thing about "honesty" and I do read the AZ board and you seem to like talking about the truth, I asked what the other rumors were. YOU have opened that can of worms. If you aren't prepared to discuss what you alluded to, you really shouldn't say anything at all. Its not fair to the indivisual who isn't here and you maybe misleading others.

Szammy

Jimmy B
05-25-2005, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Jimmy...Wow, that is a big change from the Blue Book. But that's ok. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Scott the Bluebook is over 6 years old and wasn't that accurate when it was new, the cue market has changed a whole lot in the last 3-4 years. But none of that really matters, I was under the impression that Mark had proof of work done and money spent, IMO without proof he's [censored] out of luck in my book. As I've already said I hope you get the cue back soon.

JB

Jimmy B
05-25-2005, 09:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote szambushka:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr>
If you read the last line of what you quoted I said I don't care for any cue dealers. Fact is if you really want a REAL Bushka you are limitted as to where to get one. There are many fakes out there and even some honest dealers have fakes and don't know. I would not trust any cue that I didn't know the history of or that I had checked out by at least 2 other sources (besides the seller. They are very big investments and you should do all the research you can. I happen to know a lot about what to look for in these cues and still I wouldn't trust my own eye. Buyer beware!!

JB <hr /></blockquote>

JB,
Thats not what I asked you. Since you have this thing about "honesty" and I do read the AZ board and you seem to like talking about the truth, I asked what the other rumors were. YOU have opened that can of worms. If you aren't prepared to discuss what you alluded to, you really shouldn't say anything at all. Its not fair to the indivisual who isn't here and you maybe misleading others.

Szammy <hr /></blockquote>

I'm very honest and never mind talking about what I know when it can help someone I believe or like, you on the other hand I don't believe will be buying any cue and from your posts thus far I don't really care to help you. You my friend are on your own :-) I am sure you'll do just fine, you seem to know it all already. I think it's been posted here many times, buyer beware. Good luck finding that cue you claim you are in the market for, maybe E-bay is the place for you, you may even be able to get one of those signed ones.

JB