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Qtec
05-17-2005, 09:35 AM
http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/

" C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action. "


"<font color="blue"> intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy </font color>"

I seem to remember someone on this board saying exactly the same thing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif




The truth will out.


Q

SnakebyteXX
05-17-2005, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
The truth will out.


Q

<hr /></blockquote>

The 'truth' isn't any different than it has ever been. Governments often have hidden agendas and as is often the case they will use political deception and fear tactics to achieve them - the citizenry is easily manipulated by fear - self-preservation is a very strong motivator.

Should we conclude that our (American) reasons given for invading and occupying Iraq were all wrong and therefore we should withdraw from that country immediately and apologize to the world for our transgressions? Should we also charge the politicians who trumpeted those lies and led the US into an unnecessary war with criminal misdoings? What would you have us do? Should we restore Saddam to the Presidency while we're at it?

But while we're on the subject of invading countries and overthrowing ruthless dictators BEFORE they grow too strong (think Hitler - you do remember what happened when HE was left alone, right?) - tell me what you would have done to curtail Sadam's growing potential to menace peace in the Middle East? More sanctions? What?

So, he didn't have the WMD's that he was accused of having. Does this mean that he couldn't have gotten them at some future time? Does it mean that he was essentially harmless to the rest of us and should have been left alone to murder, torture and maim the humanity of his country as long as he kept it within his borders? Where's the guarantee that he would forever after keep it at home?

Q - he went to war with Iran - he invaded Kuwait - he flung missiles at Israel - he gassed his own people. He was rich, had his own army and was well connected with countries that do not have our best interests at heart. He had the resources to get whatever he wanted - pick your WMD flavor of day. If not today, if not tomorrow - or next week - then next year or the year after. IMO: Sooner or later - he could have and very likely would have had the means and the wherewithal to tear Israel if not the entire Middle East into shreds.

----------------------------------
So, our government didn't tell us the 'real reasons' for invading Iraq. BFD.

Tell me some new news - tell me what you think the sadistic, madman, Saddam would have done over the next few years if we had left him and HIS not so hidden agenda entirely alone?


Snake

Deeman2
05-17-2005, 10:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> "<font color="blue"> intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy </font color>" <font color="green"> Not as a real argument against this stuff as we are down the road a bit and history seems to written, in most cases, by the winners, not the losers. However, is not intellegence and facts always used (fixed) to justify policy? We jumped into WWII to help Europe based on flawed intellegence over the bombing of merchant ships, the Dutch plundered the East Indies baed on the East Indians need to be traded with, occupied and pirated. There may be other examples, perhaps a few. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif GWB will free Iraq and these things will be notes in history OR he will fail and the Democrats will have a good chance of electing the next president and most of Europe will have to learn to use a towell to pray and speak Arabic. </font color>

I seem to remember someone on this board saying exactly the same thing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<font color="green"> Gee, I don't remember that. I thought everyone on here was totally supportive of our country, at least that's the intellegence reports I got. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color>

Deeman




The truth will out.


Q

<hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
05-17-2005, 02:07 PM
Thanks for showing some interest in truth. Since there have been more lies and deception, cheating, war crimes and overall breaking of our laws by this President than any man to ever occupy the White House, everything including torture, financial corruption, hidden agneda's, you name it. I quote Justice Stevens, one of the desenting judges in the 2,000 stealing of the presidency....

"Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this years presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear, it is the Nation's Confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law."

Florida law requires total recount in margin of error as high as 2,000 election margin.

Bush attorneys argued that voter intention not be considered, Bush had passed law in Texas stating that voter intention be used in determining election recounts.

Supreme Court law is very clear on when a judge must recuse him or herself from ruling....


Clarence Thomas, wife worked for Bush campaigne, had the role of reviewing resume's for potential Bush Appointees.

Sandra Day O'conner, stated during the controversial time after the unsettled election in front of witnesses that she was very upset because she wanted to retire, and would only retire if a republican president could name her successor.

Scalia, had two sons who worked for law firms that assisted Bush in the re-count legal process,.... after the election was "Settled" one son recieved a top level appointment from the Bush administration to be top legal counsel for the Dept. of Labor.

Haliburton has made a fortune rebuilding Iraq, I'm sure they don't want to see the war end, read, Dick Cheney...$$$

Katherine Harris and Jeb Bush, decision makers regarding election practices, had carved out the plan together to block eligible black voters who were accused of being convicted felons, estimates are from 2,000 to 25,000 blocked illegally by their efforts, blacks vote 98 % democratic in Florida.

Jan 2001, US Commission on Civil Rights had hearings on Voter fraud and heard testimony from George Gruder from DBT, the company charged with deleting felons from voter rosters,
"There is no doubt the list included a number of false positives, as the division of elections,... (READ KATHERINE HARRIS)... required the exceptions list to be very broad. Gruder testified "We advised the state of the significant number of false positives and made recommendations to reduce those numbers, however," (as shown in the e-mail from
Emmit B, Mitchell)..."We wanted these lists to be broad and encompasing" Emmit Mitchell,

Emmit B. Mitchell...from Katherine Harris's office, legal counsel, also Bush supporter...
"We wanted these lists to be broad and encompassing"

Katherine Harris, Florida Republican Chairperson for the Bush Campaign.

This is the man who is spreading freedom and democracy around the world!!!!

Powell..."You break it, you own it"

North Korea was and is still the biggest nuclear threat to the United States, with plenty of nuclear weapons to use or sell to our enemies, while Bush begs China to do our negotiating...
bin Laden is still free.

Violence is rising in Iraq, and Afghanistan.

WE are stuck! as in, "You break it, you own it"

If we don't care about democracy and legal elections right here, why are we fighting for the Iraqi's right to vote??????

OHIO, 2004, massive irregulatities, thousands of black votes blocked by giving them the wrong location to vote.





November 2001 consortium of
LA Times
NY Times
Washington Post
Orlando Sentinal

released the results of a thorough analysis of Florida's unread ballots....
Gore won....

President Jimmy Carter, "Gore won the election"

You may be interested in watching the movie....
"Unprecedented....2,000 Presidential Election" Katherine Harris and Jeb Bush refused to be interviewed for the movie....

"Uncovered, The Truth About The War In Iraq"

"Bush's Brain" the truth about the Karl Rove illegal campaign tactics.

Gayle in Md.

Qtec
05-18-2005, 08:13 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Governments often have hidden agendas and as is often the case they will use political deception and fear tactics to achieve them - the citizenry is easily manipulated by fear - self-preservation is a very strong motivator.
<hr /></blockquote>

If I understand you correctly, you are saying;
Yes. The Gov had a 'hidden'agenda.
Yes. They did use lies and and political deception.
Yes. They did use fear tactics in order to scare the US citizens into believing that Iraq was a threat to their self preservation.




Q

eg8r
05-18-2005, 08:39 AM
Why not answer his question?

eg8r

Deeman2
05-18-2005, 08:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Why not answer his question?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">
Why would he start now? </font color>

Deeman

Qtec
05-18-2005, 09:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> "<font color="blue"> intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy </font color>" <font color="green"> Not as a real argument against this stuff <font color="blue"> Lets hear youre REAL argument then ,or dont you have one? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color> as we are down the road a bit and history seems to written, in most cases, by the winners, not the losers. <font color="blue">What does that mean? </font color> However, is not intellegence and facts always used (fixed) to justify policy? <font color="blue">
Eh...............
NO! Maybe in Bonga Bonga but should we expect the same kind of lies from the 'leader of the free world? </font color> We jumped into WWII to help Europe based on flawed intellegence over the bombing of merchant ships, <font color="blue"> What flawed intelligence? </font color> the Dutch plundered the East Indies baed on the East Indians need to be traded with, occupied and pirated. <font color="blue">..and the US got rich on the backs of slaves, etc. ???????????? </font color> There may be other examples, perhaps a few. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif GWB will free Iraq and these things will be notes in history OR he will fail and the Democrats will have a good chance of electing the next president and most of Europe will have to learn to use a towell to pray and speak Arabic. </font color> <font color="blue"> Try looking farther than the end of your driveway. Geeez. Iraq is a REAL country, with REAL people. This isnt about Reps and Dems. Thats really pretty shallow. </font color>

I seem to remember someone on this board saying exactly the same thing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<font color="green"> Gee, I don't remember that. I thought everyone on here was totally supportive of our country, <font color="blue"> You are confusing support for the Army and support for the Gov of the day.! You can still be a good American and not agree with what the Gov is doing. </font color> at least that's the intellegence reports I got. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color> <font color="blue"> Maybe you should look further than the Alabama Gun Club Newsletter for your 'intelligence'. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

Deeman




The truth will out.


Q

<font color="blue">After 9/11 the whole world [ almost] was behind the US. When they wanted to go into Afghanistan, everyone was behind them. The US couldnt have done what it did without the support of the EU. It was only when GW and Co wanted to attack Iraq that that world asked, "WHY".
So please, dont give me any more BS that the world was against the US. Or that if one opposed the Iraq invasion , that meant that one was anti -American or some kind of wimp.
The FACT is; the present Admin took the US to war on false pretences! thats what this is about. Its not about Patriotism.
I can understand your reaction. Nobody wants to admit THEY HAVE BEEN CONNED!
</font color>

Deeman2
05-18-2005, 09:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> "<font color="blue"> intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy </font color>" <font color="green"> Not as a real argument against this stuff <font color="blue"> Lets hear youre REAL argument then ,or dont you have one? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color> <font color="purple"> My real argument does not matter, as I say, Politicians lie to or at least color their arguments for what they want to do in many cases, even to bring us to war. I don't see the Downing Street Memo doing anything but highlighting a comment by an observer in cabinet meetings. That does not mean it is completely correct. I still believe that the intellegence reports that were shared by all, made a case for WMD and everybody, left and right agreed with that then(Clinton, Mr. &amp; Mrs., Senator Kerry, et at.)and we'll just have to disagree on the motives for hitting Iraq. </font color> as we are down the road a bit and history seems to written, in most cases, by the winners, not the losers. <font color="blue">What does that mean? <font color="purple"> That means you will continue to look for things to support your view of Bush and grab onto anything that makes even part of a case for your view while the rest of the world deals with things as they are. History may not be completly written on this yet but the window has passed on serious recriminations for Iraq, unless we jump ship and leave them to lose their country back to a Saddam. </font color> </font color> However, is not intellegence and facts always used (fixed) to justify policy? <font color="purple"> </font color> As I said, Politicians use whatever means they need to achieve their goals, in many cases. If you don't understand that, you overestimate their character. This does not mean Bush lied. It means, he, like others made the best case for his end. It may not be what you want, but Saddam is out of power. Time will tell if it was the right move for Iraq.<font color="blue">
Eh...............
NO! Maybe in Bonga Bonga but should we expect the same kind of lies from the 'leader of the free world? </font color> <font color="purple"> I, again, don't agree you have proven Bush lied. You have only shown a quote from a British memo that expresses an opinion. Why did the honest politicians in UK jump up and yell about this? Maybe it was one of several opinions that just served seomone's cause.</font color> We jumped into WWII to help Europe based on flawed intellegence over the bombing of merchant ships, <font color="blue"> What flawed intelligence? </font color> <font color="purple"> We, our president was mislead (albeit, perhaps willingly) about the Germans attacking merchant vessels even when there was no proof it was them and it appeared to be accidental explosions, etc. </font color> the Dutch plundered the East Indies based on the East Indians need to be traded with, occupied and pirated. <font color="blue">..and the US got rich on the backs of slaves, etc. ???????????? </font color> <font color="purple"> Yes, exactly, you too can and have been a participant in the colonial expansion game....It's not new. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color> There may be other examples, perhaps a few. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif GWB will free Iraq and these things will be notes in history OR he will fail and the Democrats will have a good chance of electing the next president and most of Europe will have to learn to use a towell to pray and speak Arabic. </font color> <font color="blue"> Try looking farther than the end of your driveway. Geeez. Iraq is a REAL country, with REAL people. This isnt about Reps and Dems. Thats really pretty shallow. </font color> <font color="purple"> Q, your right. It may be shallow but there is some truth there. I know this is not about republicans and Democrats, It's about freedom for Iraq. Maybe it's selective freedom as there are many other places that could use a hand. However, It's a start and if we had not gone into Iraq, Saddam would still be torturing and killing his oun people and still trading oil to the UN to keep them in his pocket. At least someone is doing something. </font color>

I seem to remember someone on this board saying exactly the same thing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<font color="green"> Gee, I don't remember that. I thought everyone on here was totally supportive of our country, <font color="blue"> You are confusing support for the Army and support for the Gov of the day.! You can still be a good American and not agree with what the Gov is doing. </font color> at least that's the intellegence reports I got. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color> <font color="blue"> Maybe you should look further than the Alabama Gun Club Newsletter for your 'intelligence'. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color> <font color="purple"> Maybe, but, what the hell. You gotta get your news somewhere....and Fox Newsis way getting too liberal. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

Deeman




The truth will out.


Q

<font color="blue">After 9/11 the whole world [ almost] was behind the US. When they wanted to go into Afghanistan, everyone was behind them. The US couldnt have done what it did without the support of the EU. <font color="purple"> Yes, we could have and you know it.</font color> It was only when GW and Co wanted to attack Iraq that that world asked, "WHY".
So please, dont give me any more BS that the world was against the US. Or that if one opposed the Iraq invasion , that meant that one was anti -American or some kind of wimp. <font color="purple"> I don't think you got the memo but we don't care a whole lot about what the rest of the world thinks. Sorry, but we just don't count your vote.</font color>
The FACT is; the present Admin took the US to war on false pretences! thats what this is about. Its not about Patriotism. <font color="purple"> Not a fact... </font color>
I can understand your reaction. Nobody wants to admit THEY HAVE BEEN CONNED! <font color="purple">That's silly, we all get conned at least twice a day. Some of you even more.... </font color>

Deeman
Q, get you rug out...
</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
05-18-2005, 10:40 AM
[ QUOTE ]
OHIO, 2004, massive irregulatities, thousands of black votes blocked by giving them the wrong location to vote.
<hr /></blockquote>

No there were not. Just when you start to make a decent argument you always throw in something that destroys your credibility.

[ QUOTE ]


released the results of a thorough analysis of Florida's unread ballots....
Gore won....

President Jimmy Carter, "Gore won the election"
<hr /></blockquote>

Sure he won. And so did Kerry.

You just go rest your pretty little head now.

Deeman2
05-18-2005, 10:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
OHIO, 2004, massive irregulatities, thousands of black votes blocked by giving them the wrong location to vote.
<hr /></blockquote>

No there were not. Just when you start to make a decent argument you always throw in something that destroys your credibility.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;


released the results of a thorough analysis of Florida's unread ballots....
Gore won....

President Jimmy Carter, "Gore won the election"
<hr /></blockquote>

Sure he won. And so did Kerry.

You just go rest your pretty little head now. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Wally,

This is a little mindful of the cult Devil Worship baby sacrifices that were supposed to have occured in California back in the seventies. Remember they actually dragged some cult members into court but in the end, there were no MISSING BABIES, just a bunch of crazy folks who liked to go in the woods, disrobe and chant at trees.

This "missing voters" will always be the stuff of legend, they find a couple of bums in Miami who didn't even sober up enough to know there was an election and, poof, another 50,000 uncounted votes gone wild...Didn't hear one single complaint from the left for the dead Chicago voters for the Democrats, did you? </font color>

Deeman
the minorities I know would kick your butt if you tried to stop them from voting....

mickeymouse
05-18-2005, 11:18 AM
Back to initial post and WMD's.

I've often thought that a WMD is not a material thing but a human.

USA and Russia have WMD's. It the LEADER of the country is a WMD then we have problems....Saddam himself was a WMD along with other weird leaders past and present.

Deeman2
05-18-2005, 11:47 AM
Nice point.

Gayle in MD
05-18-2005, 12:03 PM
Wally,
I have this information and will find it and post it for you. The official who was in charge of elections in Ohio, was also in charge of the State Republican Election Campaign. Many Blacks were called in the days prior to the election and given the wrong voting location. Many were lined up into the night waiting to vote, and turned away by officials who stated that they were in the wrong location, and not on their lists. This has been documented in several publications and documentaries.

Personally, I think the issue here is whether people in this country think it is OK for the United States President to arrange facts and intelligence around his personal agenda, and pressure those individuals in the intelligence field to write their reports to suit his desire to go to war and help him lie to and deceive the American People and their Senators and Congressmen. This is what he did, it is a fact, and has been reported by those whose original memos and reports were turned away when they were told to go back and rewrite them to suit Bush's agenda. Now the same information is turning up in England. How many people have to report it before the red states will believe it? Don't trust the press in this country? Well I don't know why, they're all conservatives, they own the damn press in this country, and the radio, and most of the newspapers. that's part of what got us into this mess in the first place.

When you add to that, the money that his friends are making off this war, how can Americans remain apathetic about what is happening overthere. Do you really think that it was just an accident that Haliburton was the only corporation "Ready and Perched" to handle the Iraqi requirements? This is a big country, with numerous Corporations.

Where is the 8.8 billion dollars which has been missing?

Look how things ended up in the other countries which we have occupied. What makes people think things will end up any differently this time. They won't, and we have, and had, no business going over there in the first place. This President has the nerve to send our men over there to die for the so called freedom of Iraqis, when the truth is that this is all about money going into the pockets of George Bush and his rich friends, and that is what our boys are dieing for. He is corrupt. Holding a bible in your hand doesn't make you a saint!

Were we walking around before the war worrying about the Iraqis, and whether or not they could vote? Who do you think it was who put the guns and missles into Saddams's hands in the first place? We helped put him right where he ended up, powerful. We have gone where we had no cause to go, and destroyed and killed and pilfered a people who have been victims of Saddam, and are now Victims of us.

I can think of many other places in the world where people are suffering, places where we could have better spent the money that is wasted on Iraq. The right has taken over the media in this country, but there will be a great deal more to surface in the future months regarding the corruptiion of this administration. Not all journalists can be bought, thank heavens.

If they want democracy in Iraq, let them get out there and fight for it, just like we did in this country. We got rid of the despot for them, now let them finish the job. Do you really think bush wants to get us out of there? Do you think we're going to kill every radical muslim terrorist right there in Iraq? If you went out in the counrtyside, and away from Bagdad, and took a poll, most Iraqis want us to get out. Bush is playing this along, and by the time we get the truth about what he is getting out of all this, he and his friends will be up the road with blood money and no paper trail.

Credibility, my credibility is not the point. 1669 dead, and more to die everyday, with estimates of 100,000 Iraqis dead, thousands more maimed for life, tell me, does the phrase, Freedom On The March have any credibility to you?

Talk about evil!

No, Wally, you go rest, I won't rest as long as I see what is happening to MY democracy and the Republic I cherish.

Again, I'm really sorry about your Dad.

Gayle in Md.

Wally_in_Cincy
05-18-2005, 12:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The official who was in charge of elections in Ohio, was also in charge of the State Republican Election Campaign. <hr /></blockquote>

Ken Blackwell. He's a good man. And he's black BTW.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>

Many Blacks were called in the days prior to the election and given the wrong voting location. Many were lined up into the night waiting to vote, and turned away by officials who stated that they were in the wrong location, and not on their lists. This has been documented in several publications and documentaries.

<hr /></blockquote>

Well Ken Blackwell sure as hell did not call them. If people are too stupid to go to the right polling place they should not be voting anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
Look how things ended up in the other countries which we have occupied. What makes people think things will end up any differently this time. <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah I would hate to see Iraq turn into another Germany or Japan. You're right. We should have left Saddam in power.

Deeman2
05-18-2005, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah I would hate to see Iraq turn into another Germany or Japan. You're right. We should have left Saddam in power. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> LMFRAO /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

Deeman

Gayle in MD
05-19-2005, 04:28 AM
Right, I guess we should hope to see Iraq end up looking like Guatemala, or Nicaragua, after we went there and made a mess similar to this one, or maybe Vietnam. Comparisons of what we have done in Iraq, to what happened with Japan and Germany, are a bit like comparing what Clinton lied about to what George Bush lied about.

As for Blackwell, it's just a coincidence that Blackwell, who was co-chairman of the Bush re-election commitee in 2004, and also Ohio Secretary of State, and Katherine Harris, also co-chairperson for Bush in Fla. in 2000, and Sec of State, both were involved in questionalbe election tactics.

First, Blackwell sent out voter registration slips on the wrong weight paper, and then tried to declare them ineligible, which he had to reverse later, and then declared that if a voter had filed a provisional ballot, they weren't allowed to vote, they had to have tried to vote in that precinct. Just a lie that thousands of voters said that they had been called and told the wrong precinct to go to. Just a co-incidence that three candidated turned up as candidates in Ohio, that nobody ever heard of, but pulled in more votes than Kerry, one of the most heavily financed Democratic candidates to ever run. Just a coincidence that Katherine Harris and Jeb Bush created a purge list of convicted felons in which there were no cross checks done, which were later investigated, and proven to have illegally omitted thousands and thousands of voters, who were turned away. Hey, Politics is a dirty business. when it comes to Karl Rove and George Bush, politics is a filthy business.

But, it'll all turn out just hunky dorey, I'm sure, Iraq will be a beautiful city, once they get their electricity back, and fresh water going again, and after it is bombed and smashed enough times and we pay Haliburton to rebuild it at the equal or greater cost than it takes to blow it up.
And well you can tell by the way they're talking that North Korea is just scared sh**less of us now that they see what a tremendously high tech organized job we do when we set about occupying another country and re-arranging their government.

It's just a coincidence that we are now rendering our prisoners to Usbecistan, (sp) where they boil people, for interrogation.

Most of all I am just thrilled that there are a dozen or so right wing Bush supporting billionaire fanatics who have bought the media in this country.

Oh, and it's just a coincidence that we were bombarded with terror alerts around election time, lol.

Oh and thank heavens that we are getting all the brilliant appointees that Bush is giving us, like for example, Dr. David Hager, Bush's FDA appointee and advisor on reproductive health who was the man who shot down the morning after pill, and also advised women to read the scriptures if they were suffering from PMS and menstral cramps. A gynocologist who after thirty years, divorced his wife, who then later told the world that she had been annally raped by him for years, and he would jam her while she was sleeping, but that was just an accident, he assured us, he was just missing the target, a GYN, LMAO!

Where is the 8.8 billion??? Where is bin Laden??? How many more memo testimonials to the lies told to us by this president will the right be sluffing off in the future?

More important, really who gives a Sh*t, right? I mean why should we care if we are intentionally lied to by the president, and our boys are dieing because of his lies, as long as his buddies are getting richer?

Gayle in Md.

Qtec
05-23-2005, 03:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">I don't see the Downing Street Memo doing anything but highlighting a comment by an observer in cabinet meetings </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
The minutes also recount a visit to Washington by Richard Dearlove, <font color="purple"> the head of the British intelligence service MI6:</font color> "There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."
<hr /></blockquote>

Why would the head of MI6 make such a statement if he didnt think it was true?

[ QUOTE ]
Why did the honest politicians in UK jump up and yell about this? <hr /></blockquote>
Two cabinet ministers resigned over Iraq.

[ QUOTE ]
We jumped into WWII to help Europe based on flawed intellegence over the bombing of merchant ships, What flawed intelligence? We, our president was mislead (albeit, perhaps willingly) about the Germans attacking merchant vessels even when there was no proof it was them and it appeared to be accidental explosions, etc. <hr /></blockquote>

Geez! Amazing! Have the GOPs rewritten the history of WW11? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif


[ QUOTE ]
I know this is not about republicans and Democrats, It's about freedom for Iraq. <hr /></blockquote>

BS. If you believe that, you will believe anything. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Q..........BTW, if you are interested, I can offer you a good deal on the Brooklyn Bridge...... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
05-23-2005, 03:30 AM
Prewar Findings Worried Analysts

By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, May 22, 2005; A26



On Jan. 24, 2003, four days before President Bush delivered his State of the Union address presenting the case for war against Iraq, the National Security Council staff put out a call for new intelligence to bolster claims that Saddam Hussein possessed nuclear, chemical and biological weapons or programs.

The person receiving the request, Robert Walpole, then the national intelligence officer for strategic and nuclear programs, would later tell investigators that "the NSC believed the nuclear case was weak," according to a 500-page report released last year by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.

It has been clear since the September report of the Iraq Survey Group -- a CIA-sponsored weapons search in Iraq -- that the United States would not find the weapons of mass destruction cited by Bush as the rationale for going to war against Iraq. But as the Walpole episode suggests, it appears that even before the war many senior intelligence officials in the government had doubts about the case being trumpeted in public by the president and his senior advisers.

The question of prewar intelligence has been thrust back into the public eye with the disclosure of a secret British memo showing that, eight months before the March 2003 start of the war, a senior British intelligence official reported to Prime Minister Tony Blair that U.S. intelligence was being shaped to support a policy of invading Iraq.

Moreover, a close reading of the recent 600-page report by the president's commission on intelligence, and the previous report by the Senate panel, shows that as war approached, many U.S. intelligence analysts were internally questioning almost every major piece of prewar intelligence about Hussein's alleged weapons programs.

These included claims that Iraq was trying to obtain uranium in Africa for its nuclear program, had mobile labs for producing biological weapons, ran an active chemical weapons program and possessed unmanned aircraft that could deliver weapons of mass destruction. All these claims were made by Bush or then-Secretary of State Colin L. Powell in public addresses even though, the reports made clear, they had yet to be verified by U.S. intelligence agencies.

For instance, Bush said in his Jan. 28, 2003, State of the Union address that Hussein was working to obtain "significant quantities" of uranium from Africa, a conclusion the president attributed to British intelligence and made a key part of his assertion that Iraq had an active nuclear weapons program.

More than a year later, the White House retracted the statement after its veracity was questioned. But the Senate report makes it clear that even in January 2003, just before the president's speech, analysts at the CIA's Weapons Intelligence, Nonproliferation and Arms Control Center were still investigating the reliability of the uranium information.

Similarly, the president's intelligence commission, chaired by former appellate judge Laurence H. Silberman and former senator Charles S. Robb (D-Va.), disclosed that senior intelligence officials had serious questions about "Curveball," the code name for an Iraqi informant who provided the key information on Hussein's alleged mobile biological facilities.

The CIA clandestine service's European division chief had met in 2002 with a German intelligence officer whose service was handling Curveball. The German said his service "was not sure whether Curveball was actually telling the truth," according to the commission report. When it appeared that Curveball's material would be in Bush's State of the Union speech, the CIA Berlin station chief was asked to get the Germans to allow him to question Curveball directly.

On the day before the president's speech, the Berlin station chief warned about using Curveball's information on the mobile biological units in Bush's speech. The station chief warned that the German intelligence service considered Curveball "problematical" and said its officers had been unable to confirm his assertions. The station chief recommended that CIA headquarters give "serious consideration" before using that unverified information, according to the commission report.

The next day, Bush told the world: "We know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile weapons labs . . . designed to produce germ warfare agents and can be moved from place to a place to evade inspectors." He attributed that information to "three Iraqi defectors."


Sounds like 'fixing' to me.

hondo
05-23-2005, 11:38 AM
Dee, you're absolutely right about Bush and his supporters.
They don't care what the rest of the world thinks.
Reminds me of 2 other guys named Bonaparte &amp; Hitler.
But we don't need the rest of the world cause we've
got God on our side, right?


I don't think you got the memo but we don't care a whole lot about what the rest of the world thinks. Sorry, but we just don't count your vote.</font color>
The FACT is; the present Admin took the US to war on false pretences! thats what this is about. Its not about Patriotism. <font color="purple"> Not a fact... </font color>
I can understand your reaction. Nobody wants to admit THEY HAVE BEEN CONNED! <font color="purple">That's silly, we all get conned at least twice a day. Some of you even more.... </font color>

Deeman
Q, get you rug out...
</font color> <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman2
05-23-2005, 01:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Dee, you're absolutely right about Bush and his supporters.
They don't care what the rest of the world thinks.
Reminds me of 2 other guys named Bonaparte &amp; Hitler.
But we don't need the rest of the world cause we've
got God on our side, right?


I don't think you got the memo but we don't care a whole lot about what the rest of the world thinks. Sorry, but we just don't count your vote.</font color>
The FACT is; the present Admin took the US to war on false pretences! thats what this is about. Its not about Patriotism. <font color="purple"> Not a fact... </font color>
I can understand your reaction. Nobody wants to admit THEY HAVE BEEN CONNED! <font color="purple">That's silly, we all get conned at least twice a day. Some of you even more.... </font color>

<font color="blue"> Hondo,

I really don't care what the rest of the world thinks. Listening to them has not added anything to a solution. Everyone will take every opportunity to bash Bush. Go ahead and take yours. Nothing he does, ever did or will do can make anyone on the left happy.

While all means do not justify the end, most politicians have made the best cases for their actions and will continue to do so. If they are perceived to be on the left, you will support them, if they are on the right, you will condemn them. That was what I was saying. My comments about all of us being conned is simple reference to my view that all politicians that have ever brought us to war have done so without an open and full disclosure on every piece of intellegence that was used to make their decisions. Did Kennedy tell us all about Viet Nam that he knew? Didn't he know from the French being in that quagmire for 15 years that it was not an easy fix? Didn't our French friends tell us? If we have to qualify every military action we take with all nations and groups, we would never go to war. That's very appealing to many. However, if that be the case, no threat of war, what would the Saddams and Kadaffis of the world then be free to do? Anything they want.

By the way, I never said God was on our side. You did.

You expect me to want the world to like us. Sorry, I think we should be reasonable but I just don't think waiting for 99 more resolutions from a group who we now know had financial reasons (oil for food, where was your outrage there?, I missed it.) to sit it out until we got a weak leader, was enough of an excuse to buckel under to the Europeans. The French hate us? How many times you been to Paris, they have hated for decades. Now perhaps more. Gee, that is sad. Wait until a majority of their citizens are Islamic (coming in 20 years or so) and they can hate us even more. By that time, the French won't have to worry about having God on their side.

</font color>

Deeman

hondo
05-24-2005, 05:23 AM
I've been to Paris a couple of times. They don't all
hate us; just most of them. Most other places I've
been we were not hated at all. Again, I just don't
understand how we can try to be the world's conscience
while saying the hell with what the rest of the world
thinks. If that's not tossing the middle finger at
the rest of the world as the Pepsi lady said, I don't
know what is.

Qtec
05-25-2005, 09:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
While all means do not justify the end, <font color="blue">Exactly! Ultimately, they dont.
</font color> most politicians have made the best cases for their actions and will continue to do so. If they are perceived to be on the left, you will support them, if they are on the right, you will condemn them. <font color="blue">No D-Man, thats how YOU think! Think about it. You are willing to excuse GW ANYTHING!? Recently, the US made an extradition request for a susspected terroristin the UK. Do you know that before the UK would allow it, the US had to give an undertaking not to;
1. send him to Gitmo.
2. Not to [b] transport im to a THIRD country where he could be TORTURED!

The US has the same credibility as Gabon? now when it comes to the protection of Human Rights.
Doesnt that concern you?
</font color> That was what I was saying. My comments about all of us being conned is simple reference to my view that all politicians that have ever brought us to war have done so without an open and full disclosure on every piece of intellegence that was used to make their decisions. Did Kennedy tell us all about Viet Nam that he knew? <font color="blue">I,m pretty sure it was about stopping the advance of Communism. The Domino Effect and all that. They were pretty up front about it if I recall. </font color> Didn't he know from the French being in that quagmire for 15 years that it was not an easy fix? Didn't our French friends tell us? <font color="blue">Did you listen? </font color>

The facts are; the US came into WW1 at the end. They came into WW11, at the end. There was no rush to war on false pretences.



<hr /></blockquote> Wilfred Owen, WW11 poet.
[ QUOTE ]
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori <hr /></blockquote>

Q

Deeman2
05-25-2005, 10:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
While all means do not justify the end, <font color="blue">Exactly! Ultimately, they dont.
</font color> most politicians have made the best cases for their actions and will continue to do so. If they are perceived to be on the left, you will support them, if they are on the right, you will condemn them. <font color="blue">No D-Man, thats how YOU think! Think about it. You are willing to excuse GW ANYTHING!? <font color="blue">

No, I don't excuse his letting our budget get out of control, I don't excuse him allowing our borders to be let unattended and I don't excuse his failure to not have a beeter plan once we went into Iraq. However, he did what he thought was right despite the easier political escapes he had. </font color> Recently, the US made an extradition request for a susspected terroristin the UK. Do you know that before the UK would allow it, the US had to give an undertaking not to;
1. send him to Gitmo.
2. Not to [b] transport im to a THIRD country where he could be TORTURED! <font color="blue">

Did they agree not to interrogate him? To just let him loose? </font color>

The US has the same credibility as Gabon? now when it comes to the protection of Human Rights. <font color="blue"> </font color>

We have had incidents of abuse as all countries do in war. I don't think it is reasonable to compare us to countries that are systemically killing their own people.
Doesnt that concern you? <font color="blue">

Of course it does. Does the killing of innocent Iraqis concern you. </font color>
</font color> That was what I was saying. My comments about all of us being conned is simple reference to my view that all politicians that have ever brought us to war have done so without an open and full disclosure on every piece of intellegence that was used to make their decisions. Did Kennedy tell us all about Viet Nam that he knew? <font color="blue">I,m pretty sure it was about stopping the advance of Communism. The Domino Effect and all that. They were pretty up front about it if I recall. </font color> Didn't he know from the French being in that quagmire for 15 years that it was not an easy fix? Didn't our French friends tell us? <font color="blue">Did you listen? </font color> <font color="blue">

I was about 12 at the time. I don't remember being asked about it then. I also don't remember which of all the wars of history were just, fair and without controversy. I do seem to recall that pacifists protested war against the Nazis and many were eventually hauled off by that same Nazi Party and killed. Maybe war has outgrown it's usefullness. If so, what, besides unending years of UN resolutions will take it's place. You might say reason and diplomacy. Try diplomacy if your a Shite under Saddam. </font color>

The facts are; the US came into WW1 at the end. They came into WW11, at the end. There was no rush to war on false pretences. <font color="blue">

Didn't WW1 start over a Duke being shot? One man, in effect. Are you saying that the British did not sway the intellegence to get the U.S. into the war (WW2)? </font color>



<hr /></blockquote> Wilfred Owen, WW11 poet.
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Do you believe war is ever necessary? That those of us who believe it has merit don't also know of it's cost? You reside in a country where other countries has always had to defend your liberty and still do to this day. </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>