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Drop1
05-25-2005, 11:10 AM
I was reading an article on playing snooker,and a comment was made that frequently snooker players will pause at the end of their back stroke,before stroking the cue into the cue ball.It went on to say some pool players were adopting this technique.The idea is to clear your mind of every thing,accept the shot you are going to make. I'm working on my own ritual for a clear mind."Sent of a Woman" helps. Hoo-wa. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee
05-25-2005, 11:24 AM
Drop1...As part of the stroke process, you MUST pause at the end of the backswing (most of us pause at the CB too, before starting the backswing). You cannot change direction, and move the cue forward, without stopping the cue after the backswing. It's the length and definition of "pause" that is the only argument. For most of us, it is a very natural transition from backswing to forward stroke. Some pause for a milli-second, others for an eternity (5 sec), like Buddy Hall.

Scott Lee

catscradle
05-25-2005, 11:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> ..., others for an eternity (5 sec), like Buddy Hall.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Anything Buddy Hall does to arrive at his smooth as butter stroke is good enough for me!

Scott Lee
05-25-2005, 11:39 AM
catscradle...Yep, that's why I said it varies, and it's up the individual. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Scott Lee

Cane
05-25-2005, 11:48 AM
Yeah, Buddy probably has the longest pause of any player, snooker or pool, that I've ever seen.

In any case, I "train" with what I consider a very long pause, 2 seconds. My pause in a playing situation is much shorter than that, probably less than half a second, but training with an extended pause helps me keep it burned into my stroke. I won't go into long detail here, but the pause I've incorporated over the past 16 months, along with other things, has definitely improved my consistency.

Later,
Bob

Gayle in MD
05-25-2005, 12:17 PM
Adding the pause to the back of my stroke, before I hit the cueball, and also slowing down my back and forward stroke, has improved my accuracy a great deal. I also take more practice strokes than I used to, atleast five, also a big improvment in accuracy.


Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ceebee
05-25-2005, 12:20 PM
I work on my pause, in practice, by thinking of the shot like I would use a hammer. I pull the cue back to the place where I feel can deliver enough momentum &amp; stroke to cause the cue ball to do it's work. That works well for me.

When I play, I just play. If a wheel falls off, I try to do some repair.

Candyman
05-25-2005, 12:20 PM
I like your thinking here Cane. I have been doing the same thing for a few months and I see a big difference, especially in stressful situations.

Bob_Jewett
05-25-2005, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Drop1...As part of the stroke process, you MUST pause at the end of the backswing (most of us pause at the CB too, before starting the backswing). You cannot change direction, and move the cue forward, without stopping the cue after the backswing. It's the length and definition of "pause" that is the only argument. ...<hr /></blockquote>
Sorry Scott, strong disagreement here.

A pause is very, very different from a reversal of direction. A pause implies that acceleration of the cue stick goes to zero at the same time the speed of the stick is zero. A reversal of direction does not require that speed and acceleration be zero at the same time. This is not a nit-picking semantic difference -- this is fundamental to understanding the mechanics.

Some great players pause and some don't.

Scott Lee
05-25-2005, 12:45 PM
Well Bob, I was going to put in my original post, "no matter WHAT Bob Jewett says"...guess I should have. You obviously did NOT read my post, that the only argument is length of time, and definition of the word "pause"! This is semantics. You're wrong and that's all there is to it (however, you're certainly entitled to YOUR opinion). The backswing 'speed' (for lack of a better description), at it's natural conclusion, does go to ZERO, even if for a milli-second, before changing direction, for the forward stroke. There is NO SUCH THING as "one continuous stroke, backwards and forwards"!

I think I understand "mechanics" as well as you do...I just prefer to explain them in a way most people can easily understand! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

Cane
05-25-2005, 01:46 PM
HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!

Scott, You'll never convince Bob that if an object is in motion in one direction that it must reach a speed of zero in that direction before it can go the opposite direction. He will NEVER see this from your perspective!

Bob, You'll never convince Scott that any object can be in continuous motion and that it does not reach zero before it it can move in the opposite direction. He will NEVER see this from your perspective!

Personally, I believe pause is inevitable and firmly believe what RandyG says on this subject, "All players pause. Great players do it on purpose". I don't just believe this because RANDY said so, I believe it because of what I've seen with my own eyes. I have literally hundreds of hours of tape of matches and I don't just watch them at full speed. I frame through them to see exactly what players are doing in their stroke. I look at what their doing with their wrist, their grip, their head, their stance, their stroke, their elbow, EVERYTHING... Almost to a man, the GREAT players DO have a definite pause or a stop that can be distinctly seen at the end of their backstroke, whether it's Buddy Halls 5 seconds, or Earl Strictlands 2 frames on my VHS Player (1/6th of a second).

I'm out of this one after this! LOL $hit fire and save matches, I don't believe I even got into it this far!!!! I don't have the energy to have another 2 week long discussion on what PAUSE is or isn't or whether it's possible to stroke without a pause or not. I think arguing about it is redundant and while I'm hardheaded and stubborn in my beliefs, AND in what I can physically see with my eyes on tape framing through strokes a frame at a time, I'm not going to get in another battle of semantics about PAUSE.

Bye ya'll...

Bob

SpiderMan
05-25-2005, 02:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!

Scott, You'll never convince Bob that if an object is in motion in one direction that it must reach a speed of zero in that direction before it can go the opposite direction. He will NEVER see this from your perspective!
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Bob,

Actually, in this case Bob J was merely noting that acceleration and speed of the stick do not need to be zero simultaneously. He is absolutely correct here, and anyone who understands mechanics (physics, statics/dynamics) will agree.

Furthermore, if the real reason for a "pause" is to allow the "backswing" muscles to stop working before the "forward swing" muscles take over, then there is absolutely no need for a pause in MOTION, only a pause in acceleration.

When the "backswing" muscles relax, the stick is still moving backwards. There can be a finite period of relaxation before the "forward swing" muscles contract and apply force. AT THIS POINT, AND FOR A FINITE TIME AFTERWARD, THE STICK IS STILL MOVING BACKWARDS. It takes some finite time for the "forward swing" muscles to accelerate the stick to zero velocity. There will then be no finite time at zero velocity because the acceleration is continuous, so the stick progresses smoothly (semi-sinusoidally) from backward to forward velocity.

For this example, the "pause" was in acceleration, not velocity. This relaxation of backswing muscles and subsequent resumption of opposite force occured entirely before the backwards motion ended.

SpiderMan

Stretch
05-25-2005, 02:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!

Scott, You'll never convince Bob that if an object is in motion in one direction that it must reach a speed of zero in that direction before it can go the opposite direction. He will NEVER see this from your perspective!

Bob, You'll never convince Scott that any object can be in continuous motion and that it does not reach zero before it it can move in the opposite direction. He will NEVER see this from your perspective!

Personally, I believe pause is inevitable and firmly believe what RandyG says on this subject, "All players pause. Great players do it on purpose". I don't just believe this because RANDY said so, I believe it because of what I've seen with my own eyes. I have literally hundreds of hours of tape of matches and I don't just watch them at full speed. I frame through them to see exactly what players are doing in their stroke. I look at what their doing with their wrist, their grip, their head, their stance, their stroke, their elbow, EVERYTHING... Almost to a man, the GREAT players DO have a definite pause or a stop that can be distinctly seen at the end of their backstroke, whether it's Buddy Halls 5 seconds, or Earl Strictlands 2 frames on my VHS Player (1/6th of a second).

I'm out of this one after this! LOL $hit fire and save matches, I don't believe I even got into it this far!!!! I don't have the energy to have another 2 week long discussion on what PAUSE is or isn't or whether it's possible to stroke without a pause or not. I think arguing about it is redundant and while I'm hardheaded and stubborn in my beliefs, AND in what I can physically see with my eyes on tape framing through strokes a frame at a time, I'm not going to get in another battle of semantics about PAUSE.

Bye ya'll...

Bob <hr /></blockquote>

......i just knew all the experts would want a piece of this pause. But everyone gets hung up on the how's, when's, if's, what's, and where's of it. USLESS INFORMATION. Why not just explain "WHY" huh? And if the "why", fits your needs, then you have it.

Here is the "why" of it according to my understanding.

Because when there is a mechanical error in the stroke it usually happens in the transition from back stroke to forward stroke. Simply put, the end of your backstroke is the start of your forward stroke. So if the backstroke does not come back right, the forward stroke is adversly affected. A slow drawback, and slight pause elliminates this problem. Also the pause is when you re-focus on the ob's contact point. Yes "re-focus". During the practice strokes your eyes are scanning back and forth. When you are ready a back stroke and transition can for a split second distract your focus, even if you don't take your eye off the ball! A slight pause allows you to re'focus, or burn with intensity that vital little bit. It makes one simply react to the target from the trigger position without the distraction of having any moveing parts going on at the same time.

dr_dave
05-25-2005, 03:03 PM
FYI, this was discussed at great length in a previous thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=186717&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=). You might want to check it out (if you have several hours or days free for reading).

Regards,
Dr. Dave

dr_dave
05-25-2005, 03:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Drop1...As part of the stroke process, you MUST pause at the end of the backswing (most of us pause at the CB too, before starting the backswing). You cannot change direction, and move the cue forward, without stopping the cue after the backswing. It's the length and definition of "pause" that is the only argument. ...<hr /></blockquote>
Sorry Scott, strong disagreement here.

A pause is very, very different from a reversal of direction. A pause implies that acceleration of the cue stick goes to zero at the same time the speed of the stick is zero. A reversal of direction does not require that speed and acceleration be zero at the same time. This is not a nit-picking semantic difference -- this is fundamental to understanding the mechanics.

Some great players pause and some don't. <hr /></blockquote>

Bob,

I also tried to explain this at great length, with experimental verification, in a previous message (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=187417&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=&amp;PHPSESSID=). After people still refused to accept that it is possible to not "pause" between the back and forward strokes, I decided to give up. As long as we understand each other concerning the technique, the semantics is not as important anyway.

Regards,
Dave

Bob_Jewett
05-25-2005, 04:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ... As long as we understand each other concerning the technique, the semantics is not as important anyway. ... <hr /></blockquote>
The problem is that there are two definitions of "pause" in play. One says that all strokes that reverse direction pause, and the other says that a pause requires stick speed and acceleration to be zero simultaneously. I think the first one is without value because it is too general, and I think the latter is what most people would recognize as a pause. Sometimes it is hard to tell who is using which definition, and then there is plenty of room for confusion.

bsmutz
05-25-2005, 04:22 PM
My personal experience is that pausing between the backstroke and the forward stroke gives me better consistency, when I remember to do it.

cheesemouse
05-25-2005, 04:35 PM
Well all right then....that wasn't so bad......NO.....wait I think I hear more typing......geezzzzzzzzzzussssss

Stretch
05-25-2005, 04:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> Well all right then....that wasn't so bad......NO.....wait I think I hear more typing......geezzzzzzzzzzussssss <hr /></blockquote>

ROTFLMFAO!!!!! Good one cheese. St.

Gayle in MD
05-25-2005, 05:00 PM
WOW, Stretch, what a fabulous explanation! Perfect!

BTW, Alison says, best advice ahe ever received, Pause on your back stroke.

Gerda Hoffstedder says, best advice she ever received, Slow down your back stroke.

I don't consider a lack of momentum between the back stroke and the forward stroke to be a pause, as the word Pause seems to me, to sound intentional, not incidental.

Thanks for the perfect explanation!

Gayle in Md.

Stretch
05-25-2005, 05:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> WOW, Stretch, what a fabulous explanation! Perfect!

BTW, Alison says, best advice ahe ever received, Pause on your back stroke.

Gerda Hoffstedder says, best advice she ever received, Slow down your back stroke.

I don't consider a lack of momentum between the back stroke and the forward stroke to be a pause, as the word Pause seems to me, to sound intentional, not incidental.

Thanks for the perfect explanation!

Gayle in Md.

<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Gayle but your making me blush /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif . Truth is, Fran and i have had lots of stroke discusions and my views on the Pause were greatly influenced by her instruction. She realy is a wonderful teacher. If i have any talent at all it is for putting pieces together on a page. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif St.

nhp
05-25-2005, 05:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!

Scott, You'll never convince Bob that if an object is in motion in one direction that it must reach a speed of zero in that direction before it can go the opposite direction. He will NEVER see this from your perspective!


<hr /></blockquote>

If you put a slight curve at the end of the pattern an object doesn't have to stop before changing directions.

pooltchr
05-26-2005, 04:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> If you put a slight curve at the end of the pattern an object doesn't have to stop before changing directions. <hr /></blockquote>

And if the goal is to bring the cue STRAIGHT back, and then deliver it STRAIGHT forward, Why on earth would you even think about putting a curve in the middle of the process???????? I work very hard with students trying to get any sideways motion OUT of their stroke!!
Steve

nhp
05-26-2005, 04:59 AM
I wasn't talking about a cue, I was just talking about any object. How is your blood pressure?

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

nhp
05-26-2005, 05:02 AM
As for pausing in the backstroke, that's never worked well for me. Pausing at the cueball I have to say works wonders. When I pause on the back stroke, it gives me the tendency to tighten up and I usually produce a jab at the cueball instead of a smooth and fluid stroke.

Sid_Vicious
05-26-2005, 05:42 AM
I won't argue with the theory entirely but I will suggest that this finite moment for forward accelleration is married to a pause in the stroke at the backswing. I think we'd need to run a slo-mo video of the mechanical movements of both the rabbit style strokers to tell. My gut feeling is that the muscle groups related to back movement is independent in respect to the muscle group for forward movement, hence there is a mandatory pause in everyone's stroke, be it detailed and evident or very finite. Those who choose to elect to accent the pause may very well gain repeatability, whereas those who do not possibly gain an individual flow, a feel if you will, for their cadience of this game. My bottomline analogy though is that the transition from back to forward warrants a stop, ever so slight, the transfer to the other muscle group must have it's pause or else you'd injure yourself in trying NOT to have that pause. Mind you this pause is very finite in some players, but it is still there. I'm not convinced that acceleration can be isolated as an independent factor Spiderman. We need a slo-mo, say of Allen Hopkins pokey stroke for an extreme example...sid

catscradle
05-26-2005, 05:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!

Scott, You'll never convince Bob that if an object is in motion in one direction that it must reach a speed of zero in that direction before it can go the opposite direction. He will NEVER see this from your perspective!
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Bob,

Actually, in this case Bob J was merely noting that acceleration and speed of the stick do not need to be zero simultaneously. He is absolutely correct here, and anyone who understands mechanics (physics, statics/dynamics) will agree.
SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

In theory that is correct. However, Bob has on more than one occassion stated that there are people who in fact simultaneously end their backward velocity (and probable acceleration) and begin their forward acceleration, thus resulting in no pause at all. I maintain that this is literally impossible in the real world, our physiology just won't allow it. It may be for all practical purposes pause-less, but I don't buy that it is literally pause-less. A person can assume it is pause-less for the purposes of discussion, just as other factors are ignored when discussing other scientific principals, but they don't reflect the reality of the real world. JMHO.

catscradle
05-26-2005, 05:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ... As long as we understand each other concerning the technique, the semantics is not as important anyway. ... <hr /></blockquote>
The problem is that there are two definitions of "pause" in play. One says that all strokes that reverse direction pause, and the other says that a pause requires stick speed and acceleration to be zero simultaneously. I think the first one is without value because it is too general, and I think the latter is what most people would recognize as a pause. Sometimes it is hard to tell who is using which definition, and then there is plenty of room for confusion. <hr /></blockquote>

It is not "required" that velocity and acceleration both go to zero in a theoretical world, it is just what does happen in a real world.

pooltchr
05-26-2005, 06:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> I wasn't talking about a cue, I was just talking about any object. How is your blood pressure?

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Blood pressure is fine, but old age is most definitely taking over. I thought we were talking about pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Steve

SpiderMan
05-26-2005, 07:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!

Scott, You'll never convince Bob that if an object is in motion in one direction that it must reach a speed of zero in that direction before it can go the opposite direction. He will NEVER see this from your perspective!
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Bob,

Actually, in this case Bob J was merely noting that acceleration and speed of the stick do not need to be zero simultaneously. He is absolutely correct here, and anyone who understands mechanics (physics, statics/dynamics) will agree.
SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

In theory that is correct. However, Bob has on more than one occassion stated that there are people who in fact simultaneously end their backward velocity (and probable acceleration) and begin their forward acceleration, thus resulting in no pause at all. I maintain that this is literally impossible in the real world, our physiology just won't allow it. It may be for all practical purposes pause-less, but I don't buy that it is literally pause-less. A person can assume it is pause-less for the purposes of discussion, just as other factors are ignored when discussing other scientific principals, but they don't reflect the reality of the real world. JMHO. <hr /></blockquote>

We must be careful not to confuse acceleration with velocity. You can stop your backward acceleration of the cue, relax your muscles for a finite amount of time, and then apply the forward acceleration force, with ABSOLUTELY NO PAUSE of the cue's motion at the peak of the backswing.

This is because the shift in acceleration (and pause in acceleration, if you incorporate one) occurs somewhere in the middle of the backswing. When the peak of the backswing occurs, you have already been pushing forward on the stick for a while. That's part of what slowed it down in the first place.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
05-26-2005, 07:54 AM
Hi Sid,

I think most agree that a pause in muscle contraction, to switch from backward to forward, is probably a good thing.

What most do not seem to realize is that this pause may not result in a pause in stick motion. The pause in muscle contraction actually occurs somewhere in the middle of the backswing, not at it's peak. You're already pushing forward on the stick, after your muscle relaxation, at the peak of the backswing. See my response to cat'scradle.

SpiderMan

ras314
05-26-2005, 08:18 AM
Scott, I tried to use your reasoning in a traffic court case once. Law said you must come to a complete stop at a stop sign, not that you have to "pause". OK I was on a bike, stop sign was at a little hill and I actually rolled back befor accererating thru the intersection. That can't be done without zero speed at some point. Which means a complete stop far as I'm concerned. Cop said I didn't put a foot down so ran the stop sign and the stupid judge agreed. Course the front wheel picked up a little (well ok a lot) and the rear smoked some which is what really got the cops attention in the first place. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

pooltchr
05-26-2005, 08:19 AM
SpiderMan,
Are you saying that I am pushing forward on a cue stick that is still moving backward?? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Steve

ras314
05-26-2005, 08:22 AM
Steve, that is what HAS to happen to keep the cue from going backwards forever. Or untill something stops it. LOL

opposedtwin2
05-26-2005, 08:46 AM
Using the described explanations when a person blinks do their eyelids stop or pause? Which application would improve your pool game?

Qtec
05-26-2005, 08:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
There is NO SUCH THING as "one continuous stroke, backwards and forwards"! <hr /></blockquote>

Doesnt a piston go back and forwards without a pause?
I,m sure if a person moved the cue in a elongated loop, he would be able to play without a pause.
I,m not saying it is recommended, but its possible.

Q

SpiderMan
05-26-2005, 09:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> SpiderMan,
Are you saying that I am pushing forward on a cue stick that is still moving backward?? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, absolutely, that's why it stops moving backward.

Think of a shopping cart full of groceries, or similar object. You can start it rolling backward by pulling on it. If you stop pulling and start pushing, it's still rolling backwards for a while. Even if you stop pulling and "pause" before you start pushing, it's still moving backwards the whole time.

After you start pushing, it slows down, crosses through zero velocity, and then starts moving forward. Just like the cue stick, the "pause" in your muscle activity did not coincide with the zero-crossing of actual motion.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
05-26-2005, 09:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> Steve, that is what HAS to happen to keep the cue from going backwards forever. Or untill something stops it. LOL <hr /></blockquote>

Exactly. You understand mechanics, my friend.

SpiderMan

Fran Crimi
05-26-2005, 09:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>

I,m sure if a person moved the cue in a elongated loop, he would be able to play without a pause.

Q <hr /></blockquote>


Hey Q, I believe you just perfectly described the Filipino stroke. Cool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I've heard their classic loop stroke is molded from martial arts techinques.

Fran

pooltchr
05-26-2005, 09:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> it slows down, crosses through zero velocity, <hr /></blockquote>

and is "zero velocity" any different from "pause"? Wouldn't zero velocity be a very good definition of pause?
Steve

ras314
05-26-2005, 10:02 AM
I haven't had any math or dynamics classes in many moons and forget much of whatever I learned. However I know of no mathmatical term called "pause". Therein lies the reason for all this interesting, if usless, debate.

One shouldn't forget that velocity is a vector quality as is acceleration. IE both direction and the scalar quality should be included, or else the description set up for motion along one axis only. 'specially when you start looking at the Phillipeno pump handle stroke. Could be there is no zero velocity point in that motion.

What fun! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dr_dave
05-26-2005, 12:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ... As long as we understand each other concerning the technique, the semantics is not as important anyway. ... <hr /></blockquote>
The problem is that there are two definitions of "pause" in play. One says that all strokes that reverse direction pause, and the other says that a pause requires stick speed and acceleration to be zero simultaneously. I think the first one is without value because it is too general, and I think the latter is what most people would recognize as a pause. Sometimes it is hard to tell who is using which definition, and then there is plenty of room for confusion. <hr /></blockquote>
Bob,
I agree with you, so maybe we can come up with some terminology with which most people would be comfortable. I defined "pause" in a previous message (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=187088&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;vc=1). Like you, I feel this is the proper definition of "pause." And with a smooth continuous stroke (e.g., with the accelerometer measurements described elsewhere (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=183377&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1)), there is no "pause."

Maybe we should distinguish between the two types of strokes by describing one as continuous, smooth, and/or uninterrupted, and the other as interrupted by a "pause." I would think most people would interpret these descriptions in the same way.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
05-26-2005, 12:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>We must be careful not to confuse acceleration with velocity. You can stop your backward acceleration of the cue, relax your muscles for a finite amount of time, and then apply the forward acceleration force, with ABSOLUTELY NO PAUSE of the cue's motion at the peak of the backswing.

This is because the shift in acceleration (and pause in acceleration, if you incorporate one) occurs somewhere in the middle of the backswing. When the peak of the backswing occurs, you have already been pushing forward on the stick for a while. That's part of what slowed it down in the first place.<hr /></blockquote>
Excellent postings, Stretch. If people still don't believe you, they can view experimental proof described in a previous message (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=187417&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=&amp;PHPSESSID=).

Regards,
Dave

Deeman2
05-26-2005, 12:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> so maybe we can come up with some terminology with which most people would be comfortable. Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I propose:

Nanopause - A pause that is so imperceptable that only Dave with a showercam might catch it.

Bustapause - A long looping pause that resembles the middle of a Paris Hilton Video.

Spiderpause - The little furry pads on the end of Spiderman's hands.

Menopause - The delay that Deewoman has in the end of her backstroke.

Dejavouspause - A Pause at the back of the stroke, that is long enough in duration to make you forget what ball you were attempting to pocket.

</font color>

dr_dave
05-26-2005, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> SpiderMan,
Are you saying that I am pushing forward on a cue stick that is still moving backward?? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, absolutely, that's why it stops moving backward.

Think of a shopping cart full of groceries, or similar object. You can start it rolling backward by pulling on it. If you stop pulling and start pushing, it's still rolling backwards for a while. Even if you stop pulling and "pause" before you start pushing, it's still moving backwards the whole time.

After you start pushing, it slows down, crosses through zero velocity, and then starts moving forward. Just like the cue stick, the "pause" in your muscle activity did not coincide with the zero-crossing of actual motion.<hr /></blockquote>
Spiderman,
You should be a physics teacher, because you are doing a great job describing these mechanics principles in an understandable way. Keep it up and some people might even become believers.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
05-26-2005, 12:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> it slows down, crosses through zero velocity, <hr /></blockquote>

and is "zero velocity" any different from "pause"? Wouldn't zero velocity be a very good definition of pause?
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
If the speed is zero for only an "instant," as with a continuous, uninterrupted stroke, then there is no "pause." Although, the stick does come to a complete "stop." I know this sounds confusing, but it is correct based on the proper definitions of all of the terms used. With an interrupted stroke, there is a dinstint "pause" where the cue stick remains motionless for a finite amount of time (e.g., 1-2 seconds).

I think we should give up trying to convince each other what the proper definition of "pause" is. (This reminds me of the Clinton impeacment trial where people couldn't agree on the definition of "is" or some other silly word like that.) Why don't we just say that an interrupted stroke has a deliberate "pause." This will distinguish it from a continuous, smooth, uniterrupted stroke, which has no [deliberate] "pause."

Regards,
Dave

littleCajun
05-26-2005, 01:02 PM
If you can measure when the stick comes to a stop, then its a pause no matter how small of a time period it is.

Scott Lee
05-26-2005, 01:05 PM
Dave...I HEAR you'll be attending pool school soon! You might actually learn something, as it applies to playing pool in the real world! I wish you the best!

Scott Lee

ras314
05-26-2005, 01:09 PM
Deeman,
I like the Dejavouspause.

Describes what happenes when I try the pause at the backswing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

catscradle
05-26-2005, 01:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!

Scott, You'll never convince Bob that if an object is in motion in one direction that it must reach a speed of zero in that direction before it can go the opposite direction. He will NEVER see this from your perspective!
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Bob,

Actually, in this case Bob J was merely noting that acceleration and speed of the stick do not need to be zero simultaneously. He is absolutely correct here, and anyone who understands mechanics (physics, statics/dynamics) will agree.
SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

In theory that is correct. However, Bob has on more than one occassion stated that there are people who in fact simultaneously end their backward velocity (and probable acceleration) and begin their forward acceleration, thus resulting in no pause at all. I maintain that this is literally impossible in the real world, our physiology just won't allow it. It may be for all practical purposes pause-less, but I don't buy that it is literally pause-less. A person can assume it is pause-less for the purposes of discussion, just as other factors are ignored when discussing other scientific principals, but they don't reflect the reality of the real world. JMHO. <hr /></blockquote>

We must be careful not to confuse acceleration with velocity. You can stop your backward acceleration of the cue, relax your muscles for a finite amount of time, and then apply the forward acceleration force, with ABSOLUTELY NO PAUSE of the cue's motion at the peak of the backswing.

This is because the shift in acceleration (and pause in acceleration, if you incorporate one) occurs somewhere in the middle of the backswing. When the peak of the backswing occurs, you have already been pushing forward on the stick for a while. That's part of what slowed it down in the first place.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

I'm well aware that that deceleration (or acceleration of a negative magnitude, is that more proper?) starts during the backstroke. However I woud hardly consider that "pushing forward on the stick", the arm slows down (ultimately stopping) and the cue coupled to it via friction slows down with it. "Pushing forward on the stick" occurs when your arm goes forward and the cue goes with it. I still maintain that due to physiological reality, the cue must stop for at least an infintestimal time in the real world. The only way that can be avoided is if there is a loop (that is, the velocity never goes to zero) of some sort as suggested by another poster. A reversal of direction in a straight line with no pause can only happen theoretically, I don't care who is handling the cue.
Also I really consider this a moot point as I feel a state that so closely resembles no pause as to be considered no pause can be acheived (maybe even by me /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif).
I'm done and probably everybody is glad I am.

dr_dave
05-26-2005, 01:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote littleCajun:</font><hr> If you can measure when the stick comes to a stop, then its a pause no matter how small of a time period it is.<hr /></blockquote>
I disagree, only because I am an engineer and have studied and taught physics for a long time. For more details, see my previous message (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=187417&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=&amp;PHPSESSID=). Like Bob, I am a stickler for using terms correctly, based on precise definitions. (This is nasty habit engineers and scientists have.) However, I think this whole discussion is pointless. Why don't we forget about trying to define "pause" and just refer to one type of stroke as "interrupted by a deliberate pause" and the other as "uninterrupted" or "smooth" or "continuous?"

Dave

Deeman2
05-26-2005, 01:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> Deeman,
I like the Dejavouspause.

Describes what happenes when I try the pause at the backswing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Raz,

AND it seems like it has happened before, right? Raz, I don't think these high powered scientists are taking my contributions seriously, in the vein they were offered. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif It is certainly a very important point. "Pauser or Non-Pauser" What are You???? Guess this is where we go when the elbow drop debate loses it's fascination and luster. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Take care.</font color>

Deeman

ras314
05-26-2005, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr>I'm well aware that that deceleration (or acceleration of a negative magnitude, is that more proper?) starts during the backstroke. <hr /></blockquote>

Yep, more proper. Now lets see, is the hand pushing forward on the cue, or is it pulling forward.....

Sorry folks I'm just bored today.

dr_dave
05-26-2005, 01:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Dave...I HEAR you'll be attending pool school soon! You might actually learn something, as it applies to playing pool in the real world! I wish you the best!<hr /></blockquote>
That's right. Randy invited me to sit in on one of his Cue Tech classes in Dallas. I hope I learn a lot ... that's why I'm going. I'm also looking forward to meeting Randy in person. In fact, if other instructors would like to invite me to their schools, I would love to attend. I plan to write more books in the future (I'm actually working on my second book this summer), and I'm always looking for opportunities to learn as much as a can. I think it is important to keep an open mind and listen to the perspectives of others when doing research for a book.

As far as learning about "playing pool in the real world," I think I take offense at that remark (depending upon what you really meant). I think I know as much about pool as most pool players in the world. I have competed in leagues and small tournaments, spent countless hours in bars and pool halls, met and talked with countless players of all levels, written a book on the subject, read countless books on the subject, developed an extensive website that many people find useful, and have played for about 30 years. I hope I misinterpreted what you wrote. If I did, I apologize.

I also wish you the best,
Dave

ras314
05-26-2005, 01:40 PM
Deeman, Guess I'm a "half pauser". Scott teaches a pause at the cb before the final backswing that I find very helpful if it isn't too loooong. Gives me time to convince myself the shot looks good and to get my slow eyes to focus on the ob contact point. After that an earthquake can't stop me from wacking the cb, things just happen on their own. Uh, I mean stroking the cb without dropping the elbow until after contact with the... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Useless to have a discussion over some term without first defining exactly what the term is. Unless you are some liberal arts type, then every discussion is useless anyway. LOL

I consider your effort very valuable. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Stretch
05-26-2005, 02:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Dave...I HEAR you'll be attending pool school soon! You might actually learn something, as it applies to playing pool in the real world! I wish you the best!<hr /></blockquote>
That's right. Randy invited me to sit in on one of his Cue Tech classes in Dallas. I hope I learn a lot ... that's why I'm going. I'm also looking forward to meeting Randy in person. In fact, if other instructors would like to invite me to their schools, I would love to attend. I plan to write more books in the future (I'm actually working on my second book this summer), and I'm always looking for opportunities to learn as much as a can. I think it is important to keep an open mind and listen to the perspectives of others when doing research for a book.

As far as learning about "playing pool in the real world," I think I take offense at that remark (depending upon what you really meant). I think I know as much about pool as most pool players in the world. I have competed in leagues and small tournaments, spent countless hours in bars and pool halls, met and talked with countless players of all levels, written a book on the subject, read countless books on the subject, developed an extensive website that many people find useful, and have played for about 30 years. I hope I misinterpreted what you wrote. If I did, I apologize.

I also wish you the best,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Tap tap tap. St.

dr_dave
05-26-2005, 02:30 PM
Stretch,

Thank you for your supportive message. At first, I was worried I was being defensive and I regretted sending the message. Now I'm glad because Scott and I have communicated via private messages and I don't feel threatened anymore.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Dave...I HEAR you'll be attending pool school soon! You might actually learn something, as it applies to playing pool in the real world! I wish you the best!<hr /></blockquote>
That's right. Randy invited me to sit in on one of his Cue Tech classes in Dallas. I hope I learn a lot ... that's why I'm going. I'm also looking forward to meeting Randy in person. In fact, if other instructors would like to invite me to their schools, I would love to attend. I plan to write more books in the future (I'm actually working on my second book this summer), and I'm always looking for opportunities to learn as much as a can. I think it is important to keep an open mind and listen to the perspectives of others when doing research for a book.

As far as learning about "playing pool in the real world," I think I take offense at that remark (depending upon what you really meant). I think I know as much about pool as most pool players in the world. I have competed in leagues and small tournaments, spent countless hours in bars and pool halls, met and talked with countless players of all levels, written a book on the subject, read countless books on the subject, developed an extensive website that many people find useful, and have played for about 30 years. I hope I misinterpreted what you wrote. If I did, I apologize.

I also wish you the best,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Tap tap tap. St. <hr /></blockquote>

BoroNut
05-26-2005, 02:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>and is "zero velocity" any different from "pause"? Wouldn't zero velocity be a very good definition of pause?
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

No. You can't say "Go Lassie go." cried McDuff. Unleashed, Lassie raced to save the drowning child, her zero velocity a blur of motion"

Pg 47 - Lassie Goes Away Again.

Boro Nut

SpiderMan
05-26-2005, 02:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>We must be careful not to confuse acceleration with velocity. You can stop your backward acceleration of the cue, relax your muscles for a finite amount of time, and then apply the forward acceleration force, with ABSOLUTELY NO PAUSE of the cue's motion at the peak of the backswing.

This is because the shift in acceleration (and pause in acceleration, if you incorporate one) occurs somewhere in the middle of the backswing. When the peak of the backswing occurs, you have already been pushing forward on the stick for a while. That's part of what slowed it down in the first place.<hr /></blockquote>
Excellent postings, Stretch.
Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Doc,

My name's not "Stretch". You must be thinking of the guy from "Fantastic Four" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
05-26-2005, 03:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>
Raz,

AND it seems like it has happened before, right? Raz, I don't think these high powered scientists are taking my contributions seriously, in the vein they were offered. Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

It appears that "In Vain They Were Offered". /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
05-26-2005, 03:06 PM
Dave,

PM me your itenerary - when you'll arrive, what days are committed, when you may have some spare time, etc. Maybe we can play some pool.

Could you possibly be arranging your trip to coincide with our PettyPoint Chili Cookoff? If so, you'll meet a bunch of us.

SpiderMan

dr_dave
05-26-2005, 03:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>Doc,
My name's not "Stretch". You must be thinking of the guy from "Fantastic Four" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan<hr /></blockquote>
Sorry about that. I had just replied to a Stretch message before I replied to yours.

I haven't seen the other two "Fantastic Four" posting. Are they out there? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Dave

SpiderMan
05-26-2005, 03:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> it slows down, crosses through zero velocity, <hr /></blockquote>

and is "zero velocity" any different from "pause"? Wouldn't zero velocity be a very good definition of pause?
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> it slows down, crosses through zero velocity, <hr /></blockquote>

and is "zero velocity" any different from "pause"? Wouldn't zero velocity be a very good definition of pause?
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Everyone seems to have a different interpretation of "pause". If "pause" means hanging at zero velocity for any finite amount of time, then my prior example has no pause in velocity. It passes through zero, but doesn't remain there for a finite amount of time.

<font color="red">If an object is accelerating smoothly from 5 MPH to 15 MPH, does the fact that it passes through 10 MPH mean that there is a pause at 10 MPH?

Similarly, if an object is accelerating smoothly from -5 MPH to +5 MPH, does the fact that it passes through 0 MPH mean that there is a pause at 0 MPH?</font color>

The "physics" answer in both cases is "no". However, as many have pointed out, the real world has many other variables, including the ability to perceive and measure.

An additional point of confusion is that some are trying to equate a pause in motion with a simultaneous pause in muscle tension. These can be readily shown to not be necessarily coincident. In general, the pause/reversal in muscle tension would happen prior to the peak in backswing.

Of course, it'd be damn near impossible to feel or quantify because of the additional variables (primarily friction and change in height of the stick/arm mass during the backswing). Sometimes I just have to trust that the basic laws of physics cannot be broken, even by the best of players.

SpiderMan

Voodoo Daddy
05-26-2005, 03:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Dave...I HEAR you'll be attending pool school soon! You might actually learn something, as it applies to playing pool in the real world! I wish you the best!

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Pretty sh*tty thing to say. I know Dr. Dave dont need me to defend and I'm not but WOW...pretty sh*tty non the less.

Barbara
05-26-2005, 03:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Dave...I HEAR you'll be attending pool school soon! You might actually learn something, as it applies to playing pool in the real world! I wish you the best!

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Pretty sh*tty thing to say. I know Dr. Dave dont need me to defend and I'm not but WOW...pretty sh*tty non the less. <hr /></blockquote>

Voodoo,

This is where I would like to be the onlooker watching the proceedings. You have non-brainiac/thinking players vs non-playing-but thinking brainiacs competing for the same language.

I love it.

Thank God the opposing thumb separates us from the non-opposing thumb poster.

Barbara

dr_dave
05-26-2005, 03:48 PM
Tap. Tap. Tap.
Tap. Tap. Tap.
Tap. Tap. Tap.

Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> it slows down, crosses through zero velocity, <hr /></blockquote>

and is "zero velocity" any different from "pause"? Wouldn't zero velocity be a very good definition of pause?
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> it slows down, crosses through zero velocity, <hr /></blockquote>

and is "zero velocity" any different from "pause"? Wouldn't zero velocity be a very good definition of pause?
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Everyone seems to have a different interpretation of "pause". If "pause" means hanging at zero velocity for any finite amount of time, then my prior example has no pause in velocity. It passes through zero, but doesn't remain there for a finite amount of time.

<font color="red">If an object is accelerating smoothly from 5 MPH to 15 MPH, does the fact that it passes through 10 MPH mean that there is a pause at 10 MPH?

Similarly, if an object is accelerating smoothly from -5 MPH to +5 MPH, does the fact that it passes through 0 MPH mean that there is a pause at 0 MPH?</font color>

The "physics" answer in both cases is "no". However, as many have pointed out, the real world has many other variables, including the ability to perceive and measure.

An additional point of confusion is that some are trying to equate a pause in motion with a simultaneous pause in muscle tension. These can be readily shown to not be necessarily coincident. In general, the pause/reversal in muscle tension would happen prior to the peak in backswing.

Of course, it'd be damn near impossible to feel or quantify because of the additional variables (primarily friction and change in height of the stick/arm mass during the backswing). Sometimes I just have to trust that the basic laws of physics cannot be broken, even by the best of players.

SpiderMan
<hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn
05-26-2005, 04:18 PM
If you think of your grip like the crank shaft of an engine and the tip of the cue like the top of the piston You can see how it is not necessary for something to come to a stop to change direction.

Stretch
05-26-2005, 04:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>We must be careful not to confuse acceleration with velocity. You can stop your backward acceleration of the cue, relax your muscles for a finite amount of time, and then apply the forward acceleration force, with ABSOLUTELY NO PAUSE of the cue's motion at the peak of the backswing.

This is because the shift in acceleration (and pause in acceleration, if you incorporate one) occurs somewhere in the middle of the backswing. When the peak of the backswing occurs, you have already been pushing forward on the stick for a while. That's part of what slowed it down in the first place.<hr /></blockquote>
Excellent postings, Stretch.
Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Doc,

My name's not "Stretch". You must be thinking of the guy from "Fantastic Four" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

LOL good one Spider! Sorry i didn't catch that before you did. My eyes must of glazed over round post 57. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif St.

BoroNut
05-26-2005, 04:30 PM
As we can’t seem to agree a definition of pause and only 89% of us actually agree on the spelling, can I offer a way out of this impasse. Before your final backswing, simply stop and think “Did I leave the gas on?” Next, slowly and smoothly draw back the cue, then think “No silly, we‘re electric” You can now proceed to miss with confidence.

Boro Nut

Note - it works equally well if you imagine you're oil fired.

Stretch
05-26-2005, 04:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>
Raz,

AND it seems like it has happened before, right? Raz, I don't think these high powered scientists are taking my contributions seriously, in the vein they were offered. Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

It appears that "In Vain They Were Offered". /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Ah lets throw some gas on the fire then. Why are there so many lesbian pool players?....OK RUN!!!!!! lol St.

BoroNut
05-26-2005, 05:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr>Why are there so many lesbian pool players?<hr /></blockquote>

Massive layoffs by the bus companies.

Boro Nut

dr_dave
05-26-2005, 07:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> If you think of your grip like the crank shaft of an engine and the tip of the cue like the top of the piston You can see how it is not necessary for something to come to a stop to change direction.<hr /></blockquote>
Popcorn,

That's a good analogy. I especially like it because I'm a gear-head mechanical engineer in my other life.

However, the piston does actually "stop" at both top-dead-center and bottom-dead-center (although, only for an "instant"). The technical definition of "stop" implies that the speed must become zero. This happens only for an "instant" when the piston smoothly transitions from going up (positive speed), to going down (negative speed). For the speed to go from positive (up) to negative (down), it must pass through zero. Now, what the piston does not do is "pause." In other words, it does not stay at zero speed for any finite amount of time (i.e., more than an "instant").

I hope you or others don't take my comments as argumentative. I'm just trying to help people understand how the technical folks on the board are interpreting the terms being used.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
05-26-2005, 07:42 PM
If you don't know how the crankshaft and pistons of a car work (or if you just want more information), and if you are the curious type, I have some demonstrations and animations available for viewing at: www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/video_demos/mechanisms (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/video_demos/mechanisms/index.html)
under "internal combustion engine."
Enjoy,
Dr. Dave

Popcorn
05-26-2005, 11:54 PM
If you see the piston as the cue and the bottom of the connecting rod as the grip, The piston stops at the top of the stroke and changes direction while the base of the connecting rod never stops at all and moves in a continuous motion. So the pool stroke can as well move the cue smoothly back and forth while never actually coming to a stop in the same way. Would not be a very good stroke though.

Stick
05-27-2005, 12:51 AM
This is the beauty of online debate. That fact is if you were in a lesson with Efren Reyes and he said, "I think you should pause more at the end of your backstroke", your only question would be "How long Master Reyes?"

Some pros have found it helpful to incorporate a deliberate pause, varying in length. If nothing else this discussion should send us all to the pool hall to try out a continuous type stroke, and pauses of various duration.

nhp
05-27-2005, 03:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Blood pressure is fine, but old age is most definitely taking over. I thought we were talking about pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

'We' were not talking about anything. I was talking to someone else about physics in general and you passed by and freaked out.

NH_Steve
05-27-2005, 04:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> If you put a slight curve at the end of the pattern an object doesn't have to stop before changing directions. <hr /></blockquote>

And if the goal is to bring the cue STRAIGHT back, and then deliver it STRAIGHT forward, Why on earth would you even think about putting a curve in the middle of the process???????? I work very hard with students trying to get any sideways motion OUT of their stroke!!
Steve <hr /></blockquote>Ah, but perhaps the "curve" is in a perfectly straight vertical plane, a gentle vertical cycling of the butt end of the cue -- nothing sideways about it. Efren's stroke 'appears' to have such a motion...

pooltchr
05-27-2005, 05:03 AM
I'm not going to argue that his stroke works for him. My point is just that the goal for most of us is to have a consistent and repeatable stroke that delivers the cue in as nearly a straight line as possible. The easiest way to get it is straight back and straight forward. It's not the only way, but for most of us, it's the simplest way.

catscradle
05-27-2005, 06:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BoroNut:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr>Why are there so many lesbian pool players?<hr /></blockquote>

Massive layoffs by the bus companies.

Boro Nut <hr /></blockquote>

LOL!!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

catscradle
05-27-2005, 06:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ... In other words, it does not stay at zero speed for any finite amount of time (i.e., more than an "instant").

<hr /></blockquote>

I know I said I'd keep out of this from my last post forward, but I've got to play the devil's advocate here. Isn't an "instant" a finite period of time, however short?

SPetty
05-27-2005, 07:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Maybe we can play some pool. <hr /></blockquote>If you two are going to get together for pool, please invite me too. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

dr_dave
05-27-2005, 07:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ... In other words, it does not stay at zero speed for any finite amount of time (i.e., more than an "instant").<hr /></blockquote>
I know I said I'd keep out of this from my last post forward, but I've got to play the devil's advocate here. Isn't an "instant" a finite period of time, however short?<hr /></blockquote>
An "instant" is an infinitesimal "point" in time. It is not a "period" of time with a "duration" (like a "pause"). These definitions are consistent with Webster's dictionary and with the whole basis of calculus and physics. Now, whether or not this is important in the context of pool ... it probably isn't. But I think terminology is important when trying to communicate and agree (or disagree) upon concepts.

Regards,
Dave

SpiderMan
05-27-2005, 08:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Dave...I HEAR you'll be attending pool school soon! You might actually learn something, as it applies to playing pool in the real world! I wish you the best!

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Pretty sh*tty thing to say. I know Dr. Dave dont need me to defend and I'm not but WOW...pretty sh*tty non the less. <hr /></blockquote>

Voodoo,

This is where I would like to be the onlooker watching the proceedings. You have non-brainiac/thinking players vs non-playing-but thinking brainiacs competing for the same language.

I love it.

Thank God the opposing thumb separates us from the non-opposing thumb poster.

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think it's as polarized as that. There are also plenty of us who are intellectually curious despite playing pool intensively.

The best instructors will fall into that "category or the curious", and I include RandyG's school in that description. Teaching begins with understanding, which cannot be expanded if you rely on rote and repetition.

SpiderMan

dr_dave
05-27-2005, 08:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Maybe we can play some pool. <hr /></blockquote>If you two are going to get together for pool, please invite me too. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote>
You and others are most certainly invited. Let's continue to private-message for all of the details. I look forward to meeting the contingent of active CCBers in the Dallas area.

Regards,
Dave

Popcorn
05-27-2005, 09:04 AM
Time is relative to what you are talking about. 100 years is a long time to a human being because we live short lives. 100 years in geological time is an instant. In terms of the pool stroke, the period on time a cue may stop can be so short compared to the rest of the activity as to be just an instant and for general discussion considered to almost not have take place at all.

Qtec
05-27-2005, 09:23 AM
[ QUOTE ]
'We' were not talking about anything. I was talking to someone else about physics in general and you passed by and freaked out. <hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Q

Qtec
05-27-2005, 09:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If you see the piston as the cue and the bottom of the connecting rod as the grip, The piston stops at the top of the stroke and changes direction while the base of the connecting rod never stops at all and moves in a continuous motion. So the pool stroke can as well move the cue smoothly back and forth while never actually coming to a stop in the same way. Would not be a very good stroke though.


<hr /></blockquote>

Sometimes, a player playing this way, might get out of position, but there is no reason to say that he could not still pot every ball.

Q

Qtec
05-27-2005, 09:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> If you put a slight curve at the end of the pattern an object doesn't have to stop before changing directions. <hr /></blockquote>

And if the goal is to bring the cue STRAIGHT back, <font color="blue"> Is that the goal? Is there any player with a perfect stroke?</font color> and then deliver it STRAIGHT forward, <font color="blue">I thought this was the goal? </font color> Why on earth would you even think about putting a curve in the middle of the process???????? <font color="blue"> </font color> I work very hard with students trying to get any sideways motion OUT of their stroke!! <font color="blue">I,m pretty sure he wasnt talking about sideways motion. </font color>
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Q

pooltchr
05-27-2005, 09:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> If you put a slight curve at the end of the pattern an object doesn't have to stop before changing directions. <hr /></blockquote>

And if the goal is to bring the cue STRAIGHT back, <font color="blue"> Is that the goal? <font color="red"> Well, it's certainly the goal of many of us </font color> Is there any player with a perfect stroke?</font color> <font color="red"> I can think of a few that come pretty close to perfect </font color> and then deliver it STRAIGHT forward, <font color="blue">I thought this was the goal? </font color> <font color="red"> That is the ultimate goal </font color> Why on earth would you even think about putting a curve in the middle of the process???????? <font color="blue"> </font color> I work very hard with students trying to get any sideways motion OUT of their stroke!! <font color="blue">I,m pretty sure he wasnt talking about sideways motion. </font color> <font color="red"> ok, how about "any motion that causes the cue to move off line during the stroke...sideways, up and down, whatever... </font color>
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Qtec
05-27-2005, 10:10 AM
[ QUOTE ]
ok, how about "any motion that causes the cue to move off line during the stroke...sideways, up and down, whatever...
<hr /></blockquote>

Pooltchr, I think you will find that the perfect pendelum [?]cue action involves the cue butt rising above the line of the shot!

Q

dr_dave
05-27-2005, 10:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stick:</font><hr>If nothing else this discussion should send us all to the pool hall to try out a continuous type stroke, and pauses of various duration.<hr /></blockquote>
I've been doing this the last two months and I'm starting to buy into the pause thing (at the CB AND before the final forward stroke). I've always naturally paused at the CB, but the stroke interruption pause did not feel very natural at first (and maybe never will). However, I think it is helping my accuracy. Although, it's difficult to tell whether or not my accuracy is improving because of the pause or just because I have focus and I am practicing more.

The summary below is what I am now striving for in my stroke. I'll be curious to see if people (especially the instructors and authors out there) have input, disagreements, or other suggestions concerning the stroke (assuming the pre-shot routine, aim, stance, grip, bridge, eye alignment, mental attitude, and everything else are perfect):

1.) When in the stance, the cue stick should be in the desired aiming line direction at the desired cue ball contact point. Hold the cue stick at the CB to verify the aiming line.

2.) Take several continuous (pause-less) warm-up strokes to gage the speed of the shot. Then take several warm-up strokes with pauses at the CB. Alternate the eye gaze between the CB and the OB during all warm-up strokes and pauses to verify the aiming line, ghost-ball target, and CB contact point.

3.) Freeze at the CB on the last warm-up stroke and verify the aiming line. If any adjustments are made, return to step 2.

4.) Smoothly and slowly move the cue stick back, pause at the end of the back-swing, and move the eye gaze to the OB (or more specifically, the ghost-ball target).

5.) With the eye gaze completley focused on the ghost-ball target, smoothly accelerate to impact, and follow through, keeping everything still except below the elbow (i.e., don't drop the elbow).

6.) Freeze, keeping the body, head, and cue down well after impact.

7.) If the shot is missed, immediately try to diagnose what went wrong (e.g., check the follow-through direction for stroke steer, decide if squirt or throw was not adequately accounted for, etc.).


Instead of SPFF (set, pause, finish, freeze), I guess I'm suggesting SWPPPGAFF, pronounced "swap-gaff": set, warm-up, pause, pull-back, pause, gaze, accelerate, follow-through, freeze.

Still learning and exploring,
Dave

Qtec
05-27-2005, 10:36 AM
Thats fine Dave.
The REAL question is, how do you get the student to do that? How do you train a player to do that under extreme pressure? How do you achieve the state of mind that leads to the zone?

These are the real questions.

There is a big difference between showing what happens to the Qball on a half ball hit and actually getting a player to hit a ball half ball consistantly ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Dave I love your site, I think that the work you have done is very informative, but the fact is, that after 30 years of playing, you still dont know how to cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Please dont take that as an insult, thats just an honest opinion. I might be wrong!

Let me ask you, what is your pool philosophy? How does everything link together? Do you have a 'unified-pool philosophy?'

Q

catscradle
05-27-2005, 11:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
I've been doing this the last two months and I'm starting to buy into the pause thing (at the CB AND before the final forward stroke). I've always naturally paused at the CB, but the stroke interruption pause did not feel very natural at first (and maybe never will). ...Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Hoorah, we're no longer talking about symantics. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

pooltchr
05-27-2005, 11:43 AM
Q You are correct. There must be some up and down motion in the stroke. The idea is to have the tip traveling at the straightest possible path at impact with the cb. I suppose I should have stated that we want to eliminate any unnecessary motion in any direction other than the straightest path for the cue stick.

Dave,
You are right for the most part, possibly a bit more detailed than the SPFF, but you have incorporated each of these steps in your description. I think after you have spent some time with Randy, you will really have a handle on it. He does a great job of explaining it, and it is much easier to grasp when you have more than just the written word. As this thread indicates, one word can stir up a lot of discussion. When you say pause while you are doing it after it has been demonstrated, there is little doubt what you are trying to achieve.

Enjoy your trip to Dallas.

Steve

Cane
05-27-2005, 12:08 PM
Steve, "mumble, mumble, mumble", RIGHT? LOL

Sorry, folks, inside joke. No slam meant to anyone, and I did not come on here to join this discussion! Merely to make Steve laugh for a second or two.

Later,
Bob (Set, {Pause, Stop, Cue Stall, Infinitesimal cessation of velocity, Transition from positive acceleration to negative acceleration, whatever you want to call it}, Finish and Freeze)

Qtec
05-27-2005, 12:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Q You are correct. <font color="blue">Thank you. </font color> There must be some up and down motion in the stroke. <font color="blue"> I hate to be picky, but doesnt this motion imply some degree of Elbow Drop? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I dont think you can have one without the other. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Q

catscradle
05-27-2005, 12:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> ...{Pause, Stop, Cue Stall, Infinitesimal cessation of velocity, Transition from positive acceleration to negative acceleration, whatever you want to call it}... <hr /></blockquote>

LOL!!!

Cane
05-27-2005, 12:22 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Sorry, couldn't help myself!

Bob

Stretch
05-27-2005, 12:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Thats fine Dave.
The REAL question is, how do you get the student to do that? How do you train a player to do that under extreme pressure? How do you achieve the state of mind that leads to the zone?

These are the real questions.

There is a big difference between showing what happens to the Qball on a half ball hit and actually getting a player to hit a ball half ball consistantly ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Dave I love your site, I think that the work you have done is very informative, but the fact is, that after 30 years of playing, you still dont know how to cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Please dont take that as an insult, thats just an honest opinion. I might be wrong!

Let me ask you, what is your pool philosophy? How does everything link together? Do you have a 'unified-pool philosophy?'

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Now that's a pretty cool question Q."What is Your Pool philosophy" I think that alone would make an awsome thread all on it's own. Why don't you start a thread by stateing what YOUR pool philosophy is?......that will give me time to think of my own lol cause honest, i don't think i have much of one, or at least i never put it in those terms before, but i can see it as a good thing! St.

pooltchr
05-27-2005, 01:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Q You are correct. <font color="blue">Thank you. </font color> There must be some up and down motion in the stroke. <font color="blue"> I hate to be picky, but doesnt this motion imply some degree of Elbow Drop? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I dont think you can have one without the other. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Q...no elbow drop required. If you hold your elbow still and let your forearm swing, at every point either forward or backward of vertical, your hand will be higher than it is at vertical.
Steve

Bob....LOL...I catch myself doing it even outside of practice...some of my team mates are thinking I may be a little bit crazy. Of course, they are probably right!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Steve

dr_dave
05-27-2005, 02:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>The REAL question is, how do you get the student to do that? How do you train a player to do that under extreme pressure? How do you achieve the state of mind that leads to the zone?<hr /></blockquote>
I'm not a pool instructor, but here's my two-cents worth anyway:

Practice. Practice. Practice. Reinforcement. Reinforcement. Reinforcement. Experience. Experience. Experience.

It also helps if the student has dedication, motivation, desire, and an open mind.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Dave I love your site, I think that the work you have done is very informative, but the fact is ... you still dont know how to cue.<hr /></blockquote>
Thanks for the positive feedback on my website. Concerning my stroke on many of the video clips, I agree that I did not exhibit good technique. I've cleaned up my technique a bunch since I shot those clips two years ago. I've only really dedicated myself to working on my technique in the last year. I intend to redo many of the clips with better technique. Unfortunately, like everything else, stuff takes time. I appreciate your candid remarks.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Let me ask you, what is your pool philosophy? How does everything link together? Do you have a 'unified-pool philosophy?'<hr /></blockquote>
I don't think I'm that deep, but here goes anyway:

Have fun. Be dedicated to self-improvement and always look for learning opportunities. Keep an open mind. Don't take things too seriously.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
05-27-2005, 02:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr>Hoorah, we're no longer talking about symantics. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif<hr /></blockquote>
I'm with you on that one.

Dave

Qtec
05-27-2005, 02:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a pool instructor, but here's my two-cents worth anyway:
<hr /></blockquote>
Dave, as far as I know, you have never claimed to be an insructor!
Q

Qtec
05-27-2005, 03:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Now that's a pretty cool question Q."What is Your Pool philosophy" I think that alone would make an awsome thread all on it's own. <font color="blue">Yeah! Wouldnt it! </font color> Why don't you start a thread by stateing what YOUR pool philosophy is?...... <font color="blue">Sorry S, no can do. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif That would take too long! Then again, the method is really simple.
What I will say is this;[ QUOTE ]
Nothing is written in stone".<hr /></blockquote>
</font color>A good friend and top instructor told me this , but I didnt understand at the time.

We are individuals, with our habits, quirks and moments of insanity!

Thats all I,m going to say.
There is a way through the maze. You just have to know what you are supposed to be doing.

Q

Stick
05-28-2005, 03:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Thats fine Dave.
The REAL question is, how do you get the student to do that? How do you train a player to do that under extreme pressure? <hr /></blockquote>

Just like Dave said I think... Practice, Practice, Practice. I also liked a response in one of the earlier posts, that is, pausing longer during practice than you would in an actual match.

Dave, thanks for giving us an example of what you actually do. You are clearly as much a student of the game as you are a teacher (Maybe not a teacher of stroke, but you have certainly taught a lot of people things). And I mean that as a huge complement. Many of us just go out there to wack the balls without practicing, taking lessons, studying, reading books, watching tapes, or analyzing what we are doing.

dr_dave
05-28-2005, 09:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stick:</font><hr>Dave, thanks for giving us an example of what you actually do. You are clearly as much a student of the game as you are a teacher (Maybe not a teacher of stroke, but you have certainly taught a lot of people things) And I mean that as a huge complement.<hr /></blockquote>
Thank you for the compliments. I appreciate them.

I am most definitely an enthusiastic student. I think that anybody serious about anything (e.g., pool) should be a lifelong, dedicated student of the thing. For example, I bet most of the top pros in any sport (e.g., Allison Fisher, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, etc.) are or were some of the best "students" around.

Concerning my stroke. You will get no disagreement from me here. I have lots of "opportunity" for improvements.

Still a student,
Dave

SPetty
05-30-2005, 07:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Maybe we can play some pool. <hr /></blockquote>Let's continue to private-message for all of the details. I look forward to meeting the contingent of active CCBers in the Dallas area.<hr /></blockquote>Dr. Dave will be chauffeured out to PettyPoint by Spiderman after his class on Saturday, June 11. He'd like to meet y'all if you can make it out. I've sent email to the locals. Looking forward to it!

dr_dave
05-30-2005, 08:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>Dr. Dave will be chauffeured out to PettyPoint by Spiderman after his class on Saturday, June 11. He'd like to meet y'all if you can make it out. I've sent email to the locals. Looking forward to it!<hr /></blockquote>
SPetty,

Thank you so much for organizing this and for offering PettyPoint as a meeting place. I'm really looking forward to meeting and playing pool with some of the Dallas CCBers. I'm also looking forward to seeing the infamous "PettyPoint."

I'm gonna practice a lot these next two weeks so I won't make too big of a fool out of myself.

Thanks again,
Dave

SPetty
05-30-2005, 09:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I'm gonna practice a lot these next two weeks so I won't make too big of a fool out of myself.<hr /></blockquote>Or, you can play against me. I make 'em all look good. It's why they come back, right ryushen21? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But, after the first two days of pool school, you'll be so full of changes that you won't know what to do! You can always use that as an excuse! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

dr_dave
05-30-2005, 03:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I'm gonna practice a lot these next two weeks so I won't make too big of a fool out of myself.<hr /></blockquote>Or, you can play against me. I make 'em all look good. It's why they come back /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote>
Ok. Sounds good. First game ... me and you.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>But, after the first two days of pool school, you'll be so full of changes that you won't know what to do! You can always use that as an excuse! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote>I suspect you are right about the school messing with my mind. I'm glad you suggested the excuse. If I play badly, you can back me up on the excuse thing.

Regards,
Dave