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View Full Version : Any disadvantage to a 12 mm tip ?



Snyder1
06-01-2005, 04:42 AM
I played with a 12mm tip for the first time last weekend & absolutely loved everything about it. I know the 13mm tip is so much more popular, just curious why this is so & what the disadvantages may be with the reduced diameter tip ? THx...

JS

Nightstalker
06-01-2005, 05:38 AM
I am no expert, but from what I understand.....

12mm = more spin, might feel more natural for small handed people, tends to magnify stroke flaws and may decrease accuracy especially with less experienced players

13mm = less spin, more accuracy for newer and lesser skilled players

Billy_Bob
06-01-2005, 08:14 AM
With a smaller shaft/tip, the tip will deform sooner and need re-shaping more often. And with having a 13mm shaft/tip, a dime radius will go down almost to the ferrule, so you can't re-shape it very often before needing to replace the tip. I settled for a happy medium at 12.5mm.

If you use a nickel radius, then 13mm would make for a longer lasting tip.

Try a 10mm dime shape. One hard shot and the end of the tip "squishes" in! (Not enough tip material surrounding to support it.)

Nightstalker
06-01-2005, 08:43 AM
I think he is talking more about the diameter of the tip rather than the radius of the crown of the tip.

Patrick
06-01-2005, 10:59 AM
The better player you become, the smaller tip you need (it needs to match your skill level). Pro level is 12.5-13mm, world class is 12-12.5mm. I use 11.8mm, I rather die than play with 12+mm tip.

bsmutz
06-01-2005, 11:17 AM
I switch back and forth from 13 to 12, but have been playing with a 12 exclusively for the past couple of months. The pros and cons: a larger tip makes it easier to hit center ball. I always use a larger tip for breaking. As mentioned above, a larger tip holds its shape better. A smaller tip makes it harder to hit center ball so if you don't pay attention, you may put unwanted spin on the cue ball. The smaller diameter of the cue stick makes it a little harder to grip well with your bridge hand. It may be that in Patrick's galaxy that a smaller tip indicates your level of play, but on this planet (with its inferior beings) the tips of the best players vary in size. Allison Fisher used to use an 8 mm tip for snooker but switched to a 13 mm tip for 9 ball. Her reason was that it is easier to hit center ball. I'm sure that on Patrick's planet, she wouldn't even be good enough to rack the balls, but given that she is stuck here with all the rest of us insects and seems to beat our best very consistently, it is worthy of consideration. I had started out with a 12mm tip a little over a year ago when I began my major addiction phase. I went to a 13 mm when I started trying to figure out what worked best for me. I got pretty good with the 13mm and then went back to the 12. Now if I try to go back to the 13, it takes a while to get used to it. Overall, though, I feel like I play better with the 12. Bottom line is I think it is like most other aspects of pool, use whatever seems to work best for you. If you can prove it, great. If not, just go with what you like.

Patrick
06-01-2005, 11:50 AM
Hitting centre ball is not something good players want to do. The bigger tip you have the harder it is to add very little spin around the centre part of the cueball! Most of the time you aim within 1 tip width spin for optimal position, I need exact centre ball 1 in 100 000 of the shots I make! Allison Fisher plays it "the easy way" and accepts bad position play, she is NOT A POOL PLAYER, she only plays to win.

BoroNut
06-01-2005, 11:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Patrick:</font><hr> The better player you become, the smaller tip you need (it needs to match your skill level).<hr /></blockquote>

Er... I think whatever your skill level you're at it needs to match your ferrule. An obvious mistake to make if you've never actually seen a cue I suppose.

Boro Nut

BoroNut
06-01-2005, 12:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Patrick:</font><hr> Hitting centre ball is not something good players want to do. ....Most of the time you aim within 1 tip width spin for optimal position...<hr /></blockquote>

If you need to put corrective side on the ball to get into postion on every shot you can't possibly ever have been in perfect postion. Perfect postion is when you only need to roll a ball in and get to the next perfect postion. The best players only ever have to hit on the centreline.

Boro Nut

bsmutz
06-01-2005, 12:08 PM
Oh, crap, I forgot the object of the game is to lose and the only real pool players play on a computer. My bad!!! Sorry, Patrick. Snyder1, please ignore my previous message. In order to play superior pool (not to win, but just play better than anyone else, however you measure that), you must use a smaller than 12mm tip. I defer my inferior opinions to Grand Master Patrick. Follow his tutelage and you can't go wrong. Remember to not play on a real pool table either as this will ruin your game. You must play Virtual 3D pool (I think it's called) to be successful (to learn how not to win). And remember that the cue ball MUST ALWAYS be exactly 12 cm from the object ball! This is the only way that you will know that you are playing correctly. I've made a jig exactly 12 cm long so that I can measure my position after every shot. If it's 11 or 13, then I practice until I can get 12 cm 1000 times in a row, then move on to the next shot.

Patrick
06-01-2005, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BoroNut:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Patrick:</font><hr> The better player you become, the smaller tip you need (it needs to match your skill level).<hr /></blockquote>

Er... I think whatever your skill level you're at it needs to match your ferrule. An obvious mistake to make if you've never actually seen a cue I suppose.

Boro Nut <hr /></blockquote>This thread was about the tip. Your ferrule (and shaft*) needs to be the same diameter.

Patrick
06-01-2005, 12:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BoroNut:</font><hr> Perfect postion is when you only need to roll a ball in and get to the next perfect postion. <hr /></blockquote>THAT IS NOT PERFECT POSITION !!!

Patrick
06-01-2005, 01:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Oh, crap, I forgot the object of the game is to lose and the only real pool players play on a computer. My bad!!! Sorry, Patrick. Snyder1, please ignore my previous message. In order to play superior pool (not to win, but just play better than anyone else, however you measure that), you must use a smaller than 12mm tip. I defer my inferior opinions to Grand Master Patrick. Follow his tutelage and you can't go wrong. Remember to not play on a real pool table either as this will ruin your game. You must play Virtual 3D pool (I think it's called) to be successful (to learn how not to win). And remember that the cue ball MUST ALWAYS be exactly 12 cm from the object ball! This is the only way that you will know that you are playing correctly. I've made a jig exactly 12 cm long so that I can measure my position after every shot. If it's 11 or 13, then I practice until I can get 12 cm 1000 times in a row, then move on to the next shot. <hr /></blockquote>The optimal distance that you position yourself from the next ball depends on how long your follow through is. The optimal follow through depends on you weight of the cue and your fast twitch muscle fibre percentage of your triceps (how fast you decelerate the cue after cueball impact). 12 cm is measured by a draw shot where you need time to remove the cue before the cueball comes back to hit the tip. For cut shots you of course can position yourself closer to the object ball.

I can make the draw shot with the cueball 1-2 cm close to the object ball (without jacking up cue), but the stroke doesn't get consistent then! The optimal distance from the object ball also depends on the angle to the object ball and the spin and speed on the cueball you will use. But 12 cm is a "safe" distance for ALL shots, this is of course only if you use the optimal follow through. If you use a "pro follow through" you need more than 12 cm, I tried using this follow through for a few months and I know now why the pros suck so much, long shots are easier but speed control just isn't good at all, but they have bad cueball control so it doesn't matter to them.

For me the optimal follow through length is 7.7 cm on hard shots, on soft shots that is of course much shorter than that. You also need to adjust for the inconsistent table which is around 5 cm on average shots, you can't position yourself consistently 12 cm from the object ball. Usually it sometimes gets 9.5 cm and sometimes 14.5 cm. So 9.5 - 7.7 leaves 1.8 cm margin after the follow through so you should never get a double hit with the tip.

The optimal follow through (http://poollogics.port5.com/articles/mrx/optimalfollowthrough.htm)

BoroNut
06-01-2005, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Patrick:</font><hr>THAT IS NOT PERFECT POSITION !!!<hr /></blockquote>

Only in the real game. Obviously your simulator is not as realistic as you say.

Enough of the real game. What about virtual pool, you must have invested an immense amount of time perfecting your skill. How long exactly does it take you to reach tosser level?

Boro Nut

BoroNut
06-01-2005, 01:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Patrick:</font><hr> The optimal follow through depends on you weight of the cue and your fast twitch muscle fibre percentage of your triceps (how fast you decelerate the cue after cueball impact).<hr /></blockquote>

It's your biceps that hit the shot - the triceps play no part, and we have 'up' on a real table to get a cue out of the way. An obvious mistake to make if you have never seen a real cue.

Boro Nut

bsmutz
06-01-2005, 01:43 PM
Dang, we have to make the ball, too???? I thought that to play optimally we weren't supposed to win? If we make the balls, isn't there a chance that we might win? I thought we were playing position. That's it, I'm burning my table as soon as I get home. Shoulda done it a long time ago. It's just ruining my VP3D game. Thanks for the help, Patrick, One, Mr. Xciting, Mr. Xcellent, Mr. Xistentialist.

Patrick
06-01-2005, 01:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BoroNut:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Patrick:</font><hr> The optimal follow through depends on you weight of the cue and your fast twitch muscle fibre percentage of your triceps (how fast you decelerate the cue after cueball impact).<hr /></blockquote>

It's your biceps that hit the shot - the triceps play no part, and we have 'up' on a real table to get a cue out of the way. An obvious mistake to make if you have never seen a real cue.

Boro Nut <hr /></blockquote>You don't lift 'up' the cue to remove it from the way if the cueball and object ball are very close! You pull it backwards!

I should not need to explain simple things to you! It looks like you only have played real pool for a few months. I have played real pool (more than half my life) for longer than I have played Virtual Pool!!

Patrick
06-01-2005, 01:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BoroNut:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Patrick:</font><hr>THAT IS NOT PERFECT POSITION !!!<hr /></blockquote>

Only in the real game. Obviously your simulator is not as realistic as you say.

Enough of the real game. What about virtual pool, you must have invested an immense amount of time perfecting your skill. How long exactly does it take you to reach tosser level?

Boro Nut <hr /></blockquote>It is almost impossible to play perfect position without any spin 2 shots in a row. You always need some spin. You don't know what perfect is, think of the cueball frozen to the object ball, you can't get that perfect without any spin on the cueball unless the position of the balls on the table are perfect for it! Sure you can cheat the pocket but this isn't what it is about.

Nightstalker
06-01-2005, 01:56 PM
No, it is all about cheating the pockets! Cheating to win! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Patrick
06-01-2005, 01:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Dang, we have to make the ball, too???? I thought that to play optimally we weren't supposed to win? If we make the balls, isn't there a chance that we might win? I thought we were playing position. That's it, I'm burning my table as soon as I get home. Shoulda done it a long time ago. It's just ruining my VP3D game. Thanks for the help, Patrick, One, Mr. Xciting, Mr. Xcellent, Mr. Xistentialist. <hr /></blockquote>It is called Virtual Pool 3. If that game didn't exist I would play real life pool instead. ALL other simulators are crap.

Winning is a side effect of perfect cueball control. If you do it correctly you will always win. The big mistake is to let winning come first, that way you play worse position play which makes your skill worse over time! How to improve your cueball control (http://poollogics.port5.com/articles/one/cueballcontrol.htm)

Patrick
06-01-2005, 02:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nightstalker:</font><hr> No, it is all about cheating the pockets! Cheating to win! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>How can you improve your skill if you cheat or play to win? You are not even close to a pool player, you are a gambler and do everything to win, even cheat. Cheating is the optimal choice if you want to win, you need to know the odds (how to get away with it etc.).

Nightstalker
06-01-2005, 02:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Patrick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nightstalker:</font><hr> No, it is all about cheating the pockets! Cheating to win! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>How can you improve your skill if you cheat or play to win? You are not even close to a pool player, you are a gambler and do everything to win, even cheat. Cheating is the optimal choice if you want to win, you need to know the odds (how to get away with it etc.).
<hr /></blockquote>

No you don't get it, as usual. Cheating the pockets is the cheating to win that I was speaking of, not cheating as in hustling. GO back to whatever moon rock you came from and allow us mere humans to play fake real pool.

BoroNut
06-01-2005, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Patrick:</font><hr> You don't lift 'up' the cue to remove it from the way if the cueball and object ball are very close! You pull it backwards!

I should not need to explain simple things to you! It looks like you only have played real pool for a few months. I have played real pool (more than half my life) for longer than I have played Virtual Pool!! <hr /></blockquote>

Well we've learned something. Virtual pool has only been out a couple of years so you must be at least 4.

Oh by the way, I don't play real pool. I play real snooker and real billiards, and what you do is you screw back deeply, raise your cue on your fingers, and let the cue ball pass directly under your cue and body, to return off the cushion underneath you exactly to the end of the cue. Just where you could have been if you'd stunned it in. It saves a long walk around the enormous table and it's what we in the real world call showing off. You never know who might be watching. A simple mistake to make if you have never seen a real cue I suppose.

Boro Nut

Patrick
06-01-2005, 04:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BoroNut:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Patrick:</font><hr> You don't lift 'up' the cue to remove it from the way if the cueball and object ball are very close! You pull it backwards!

I should not need to explain simple things to you! It looks like you only have played real pool for a few months. I have played real pool (more than half my life) for longer than I have played Virtual Pool!! <hr /></blockquote>

Well we've learned something. Virtual pool has only been out a couple of years so you must be at least 4.

Oh by the way, I don't play real pool. I play real snooker and real billiards, and what you do is you screw back deeply, raise your cue on your fingers, and let the cue ball pass directly under your cue and body, to return off the cushion underneath you exactly to the end of the cue. Just where you could have been if you'd stunned it in. It saves a long walk around the enormous table and it's what we in the real world call showing off. You never know who might be watching. A simple mistake to make if you have never seen a real cue I suppose.

Boro Nut <hr /></blockquote>If the cueball is 2 cm from the object ball, you just can't lift up the cue in a draw shot, it is impossible, you need to pull it back before lifting it up.

nhp
06-02-2005, 01:27 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The optimal follow through depends on you weight of the cue and your fast twitch muscle fibre percentage of your triceps <hr /></blockquote>

LOL you dummy the triceps play no part in the follow thru. All you do is make stuff up. I've already asked you to post a video of you playing pool in real life to prove that you can play. And don't say that you don't care if we don't believe you, because we all know you care deeply about what everyone else thinks. That's the reason why you constantly post here and try to belittle everyone. My 80 year old aunt could probably beat you playing pool. Grow a spine and post a video of you playing or just shut up.

Snyder1
06-02-2005, 04:19 AM
Sheesh, did this post get off track. Thanks only to those who responded to my post about smaller diameter tips - your responses reaffirmed my suspicions &amp; helped me pull the trigger on a 12.5mm viking cue last night /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif I appreciate it...

John

disturbed_won
06-02-2005, 06:27 PM
I have a friend back home that plays with an old Adams snooker cue and it has an 8 mm tip on it and it is a 15oz its an awesome looking old stick it was made in the mid 70's.

JimS
06-03-2005, 05:38 AM
Patrick has a whole new group of posters that don't know about his "problems". It'll take a long time before the new people learn to ignore his antics. And... some of the old posters still like to stir him up despite the fact that it wastes time sorting through crap to participate in what might have been a decent thread.

For anyone not yet familiar with Patrick, the best policy is to just skip over anything he writes. Don't read it and certainly don't respond to his craziness. Just move on, just as you would should you encounter a loud mouthed fool in the pool hall.