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Qtec
06-01-2005, 05:56 AM
Dutch Vote on European Union Constitution

By TOBY STERLING
The Associated Press
Wednesday, June 1, 2005; 8:24 AM



AMSTERDAM, Netherlands -- The Dutch voted in their first national referendum on Wednesday, choosing whether to accept a proposed European Union constitution. Polls indicated the Netherlands would be the second country in four days to reject the idea.

Recent surveys have shown almost 60 percent of voters will say no to the proposal. Following France's rejection of the charter on Sunday, a Dutch repudiation would leave Europe's leaders with no clear backup plan for what to do when two of the 25-nation union's members say they won't approve the new ground rules.

"Let's not let ourselves be led by polls," Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende said Tuesday in a last-minute plea for a yes vote. "Let's hope that when they're in the voting booth, people think about all the people that say this constitution would be a positive development."

Dutch supporters _ including both Balkenende's conservative government and the main opposition Labor Party _ say the constitution would streamline decision making in the union and create a single foreign minister to give Europe more sway in international affairs.

The referendum is nonbinding, but Dutch leaders have pledged to accept it as long as the result is clear and turnout is above 30 percent.

"I think it's a good thing if there's a strong Europe," said Jaena Padberg, an early yes voter outside a busy voting station at a community school in Amsterdam. "It's good that our rights will be secured."

Opponents fear that the Netherlands, a nation of just 16 million, will be engulfed by a superstate headquartered in Brussels and dominated by Germany, France and Britain.

That could mean the end of liberal Dutch policies such as 'tolerating marijuana use, prostitution and euthanasia.' <font color="blue"> When marijuana [ soft drugs] were made semi-legal, consumption actually went DOWN! </font color>

Still other voters will say no to voice their discontent with the unpopular Dutch government. <font color="blue"> Pim F. would have been P.M. if he hadnt been assassinated. The present coalition will be out at the next election. </font color> Many here are angry about price increases that followed the introduction of the euro in 2002, and some fear that Turkey will soon be admitted to the union, worsening tensions between Dutch Muslims and the non-Muslim majority.<font color="blue"> Thats not true. Its the Morrocans that are the problem. Turkey is much more Westernised than the other Muslim countries. </font color>

"In other countries that are going to join human rights are not as well protected as they are here," said no voter Mika Gruschke.

"Things are going too fast," said no voter Maarten Pijnenburg. "There's not enough control over the power of European politicians" under the new constitution, he said.

Jort Kelder, editor of the Dutch business and style magazine Quote, said politicians were reaping what they have sown.

"People see that they were bamboozled" by the price rises after the introduction of the euro, he said. A no vote "will be a success for democracy, but a drama for the constitution."

Balkenende repeated that a Dutch no would not mean that politicians would resign. <font color="blue"> Now that is a shame!.......not! </font color>




I predict a big NO!

Q.......did you know that the Dutch pay more per.capita than any other country in the EU!

catscradle
06-01-2005, 07:08 AM
How long before the EU gains enough power to dictate to the member countries (states if you will) which leads to a "civil war" which leads to a more powerful EU?

Deeman2
06-01-2005, 07:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Q.......did you know that the Dutch pay more per.capita than any other country in the EU!
<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> As well they should. </font color>

SpiderMan
06-01-2005, 07:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
That could mean the end of liberal Dutch policies such as 'tolerating marijuana use, prostitution and euthanasia.' <font color="blue"> When marijuana [ soft drugs] were made semi-legal, consumption actually went DOWN! </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Is there a theory regarding this? Does it mean that some Dutch users were only doing so because of the thrill of doing something "illegal"?

SpiderMan

Wally_in_Cincy
06-01-2005, 07:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>

did you know that the Dutch pay more per.capita than any other country in the EU!
<hr /></blockquote>

So what? I thought you were a fan of socialism.

Nightstalker
06-01-2005, 08:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>

did you know that the Dutch pay more per.capita than any other country in the EU!
<hr /></blockquote>

So what? I thought you were a fan of socialism. <hr /></blockquote>

I think that he is socialist, probably explains a lot about why he dislikes Bush so much. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Qtec
06-01-2005, 09:06 AM
Tell me, oh wise one, what does a socialist believe in?

Q........

Qtec
06-01-2005, 09:10 AM
<font color="blue"> Does it mean that some Dutch users were only doing so because of the thrill of doing something "illegal"?

</font color>

Why do kids drink beer? Maybe they think its cool?
Kids love doing things they are not supposed to do.

Q....there are other reasons.........

Wally_in_Cincy
06-01-2005, 09:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Tell me, oh wise one, what does a socialist believe in?

Q........ <hr /></blockquote>

rob from the rich and give to the lazy

Qtec
06-01-2005, 10:00 AM
Tell me wally, do you have more rich than poor in the US?

Do you believe in Democracy? One man ,one vote?

Q

Nightstalker
06-01-2005, 10:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Tell me, oh wise one, what does a socialist believe in?

Q........ <hr /></blockquote>

rob from the rich and give to the lazy <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks, you beat me to the punch. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Chopstick
06-01-2005, 11:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Tell me wally, do you have more rich than poor in the US?

Do you believe in Democracy? One man ,one vote?

Q <hr /></blockquote>

How many rich people are there in Russia? The odds of becoming a millionaire in America are 423 to 1. What are the odds in your new world order?

Qtec
06-01-2005, 11:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The odds of becoming a millionaire in America are 423 to 1. <hr /></blockquote>
How did you work that one out?

What were GW,s chances of becoming a millionare?
Alot less that 423/1, I,ll bet.

Dont you wish you hadnt said that now?

Q

Deeman2
06-01-2005, 11:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
The odds of becoming a millionaire in America are 423 to 1. <hr /></blockquote>
How did you work that one out? <font color="blue"> Because he knows that 1 in every 423 people in America is a millionare. </font color>

What were GW,s chances of becoming a millionare?
Alot less that 423/1, I,ll bet. <font color="blue"> Well, he made it didn't he? </font color>

Dont you wish you hadnt said that now? <font color="blue"> ??????? I bet he doesn't. </font color>

Q
<hr /></blockquote>

Deeman
give em all your money, Q

highsea
06-01-2005, 12:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>...Alot less that 423/1, I,ll bet.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, well we all know from history that no alternative economic system except capitalism has ever favored the already-wealthy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Qtec
06-01-2005, 12:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What were GW,s chances of becoming a millionare?
Alot less that 423/1, I,ll bet. Well, he made it didn't he?
<hr /></blockquote>

What were HIS odds?

Q

Nightstalker
06-01-2005, 12:37 PM
Q it is pointless, no sense in trying to convert any of us over to thinking that it is better to be a hard worker so lazy asses can benefit. I might consider being one of those lazy asses in that situation, but then I would feel guilty and I couldn't handle it to I would get to work. Are you a hard worker Qtec or are you one of the ones who would like to sit on your ass and receive a hand-out?

SpiderMan
06-01-2005, 12:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>
What were GW,s chances of becoming a millionare?
Alot less that 423/1, I,ll bet. <font color="blue"> Well, he made it didn't he? </font color> Deeman
give em all your money, Q <hr /></blockquote>

Quit ducking, Dee. You know he wants you to admit that, in our evil captitalist society, you can pass on your wealth to your children. What an outrage. It's just not fair that your daughter will have a better shot at being a millionaire than many of her co-workers.

SpiderMan

Qtec
06-01-2005, 12:45 PM
Just because we have capitalism doesnt mean to say that we have to bend over and take it in the &amp;$$!.

The US is the richest country on the planet but 60% [+- I guess] dont even have medical insurance.
Now GW says pensions that people have paid all their life for, can no longer be paid out because there is not enough cash!........but they still have 500 bilion for defence!
I dont think thats right and if that makes me a Liberal in your eyes, too bad.

Statistics mean nothing. You have more chance of winning the lottery than ever being killed in a terrorist action.
Q

highsea
06-01-2005, 12:51 PM
You must have the world's shortest attention span, coupled with a one-track mind.

So did you vote?

Qtec
06-01-2005, 12:55 PM
Spiderman, I,m surprised at you. Didnt think you would be so quick to join the lynch mob.
My point is, if you live in south Central, your parents are alcoholics and the rest of your family are gang bangers or drug addicts, do you still have a 423/1 chance of becoming a millionare?
Its an extreme example but it makes the point that we are all NOT born equal. GW,s next child will be born a millionare- the S.C kid might be born with a crack addiction.
The statistic is totally bogus. Thats my point.


Q ...........

Nightstalker
06-01-2005, 12:57 PM
The 423/1 stat takes into account everyone, you're citing individual examples.

Qtec
06-01-2005, 12:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You must have the world's shortest attention span, coupled with a one-track mind <hr /></blockquote>

Explain please.

Q.....we voted NO.

SpiderMan
06-01-2005, 01:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Spiderman, I,m surprised at you. Didnt think you would be so quick to join the lynch mob.
My point is, if you live in south Central, your parents are alcoholics and the rest of your family are gang bangers or drug addicts, do you still have a 423/1 chance of becoming a millionare?
Its an extreme example but it makes the point that we are all NOT born equal. GW,s next child will be born a millionare- the S.C kid might be born with a crack addiction.
The statistic is totally bogus. Thats my point.
Q ........... <hr /></blockquote>

By agreeing that it is statistical, you also acknowledge that you understand it has variance, and is not constant across the population. Your post, however, implied that you thought it was provided as a constant (not an average). You pretended to misunderstand that fact in order to goad Chopstick.

I admit I was being sarcastic, but with reason. There is a fundamental difference of opinion between socialist and capitalist thinking. We (myself, DeeMan, Chopstick, etc) do not believe that the playing field should be re-leveled for every embryo at conception, nor should it be artificially maintained so by constant redistribution of a person's lifelong achievements.

Yes, Paris Hilton was a guaranteed millionaire at birth. Yes, If I have children they will receive the best head start I can engineer. No, I do not think it unfair that my offspring will probably never share Paris Hilton's wealth.

Do you believe in natural selection as a mechanism for evolution? The grand purpose of any trait, however obscure, that works to improve our lot in comparision to the statistical population, is to have that trait passed on to our offspring. At one time, such traits probably included sharp eyesight and the ability to run like the wind. Now, they may also include the ability to adapt to a socioeconomic environment and accumulate wealth.

SpiderMan

Deeman2
06-01-2005, 01:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Just because we have capitalism doesnt mean to say that we have to bend over and take it in the &amp;$$!.

The US is the richest country on the planet but 60% [+- I guess] dont even have medical insurance. <font color="blue">Don't you feel, if 60% of the people are as bad off here as you say they are, wouldn't they have risen up and voted for a liberal/left wing agenda/president? The very fact that you believe we are all wrong is a pretty solid vote for our system. Yes, we can insure all our people, we can level everyone's income and redistribute the wealth in this country. However, as a nation, we have decided that is not what we want. For every South Central example you give, we can give a hundred for Moscow, Beijing or North Korea. Is that not examples of the liberal view at work? </font color>
Now GW says pensions that people have paid all their life for, can no longer be paid out because there is not enough cash!........but they still have 500 bilion for defence! <font color="blue"> Bush is not the first to say SS is in trouble. Maybe the first to offer more solutions than just ignoring the problem. It was broken long before he showed up. What does defense of our country have to do with Social Security? We will defend ourselves as always, despite the fact politiicans will suck up any money they can get their hands on to redistribute to the poor. </font color>
I dont think thats right and if that makes me a Liberal in your eyes, too bad. <font color="blue"> That makes you a socialist, a liberal and a person who, as always, screams at one item while ignoring another just as valid. That's not too bad. It's actually good for us as your ideas decline and ours grow. The difference is we have stopped a mad dash to the left and you are still sailing in that direction. Every twenty years or so the Dutch actually have a part of a vote on how Europe will constitute itself. Fortunately, we are not nearly as concerned about how the Netherlands votes as you are about how we do. I wonder why?</font color>

Statistics mean nothing. You have more chance of winning the lottery than ever being killed in a terrorist action.
Q <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">They do mean something if you are the ones who are hit. Statistics mean nothing? This from the guy who posts any ilk of negative about our president he can google out and now, statistics mean nothing....You are a riot, Q. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

Deeman

eg8r
06-02-2005, 05:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
My point is, if you live in south Central, your parents are alcoholics and the rest of your family are gang bangers or drug addicts, do you still have a 423/1 chance of becoming a millionare?
Its an extreme example but it makes the point that we are all NOT born equal. <hr /></blockquote> There was no point. There are people who come out of those situations and make plenty of money. The point that you and the rest of the socialist crowd miss is that life is based on decisions not luck.

eg8r

hondo
06-02-2005, 05:39 AM
423 to 1 ? Damn. Now I really feel bad. My wife
and I work our asses off every day and have trouble
paying our bills. I don't resent Dubya being rich
however, because I know how much compassion he
feels for the common working man.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Tell me wally, do you have more rich than poor in the US?

Do you believe in Democracy? One man ,one vote?

Q <hr /></blockquote>

How many rich people are there in Russia? The odds of becoming a millionaire in America are 423 to 1. What are the odds in your new world order? <hr /></blockquote>

catscradle
06-02-2005, 06:35 AM
You fell bad? How do you think I feel, my ancestors have been working very hard in this country since 1620 and not a millionaire among them. Although I think there are probably a good number of collateral very distance relatives who did alright. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> 423 to 1 ? Damn. Now I really feel bad. My wife
and I work our asses off every day and have trouble
paying our bills. I don't resent Dubya being rich
however, because I know how much compassion he
feels for the common working man.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Tell me wally, do you have more rich than poor in the US?

Do you believe in Democracy? One man ,one vote?

Q <hr /></blockquote>

How many rich people are there in Russia? The odds of becoming a millionaire in America are 423 to 1. What are the odds in your new world order? <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Chopstick
06-02-2005, 10:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> My point is, if you live in south Central, your parents are alcoholics and the rest of your family are gang bangers or drug addicts, do you still have a 423/1 chance of becoming a millionare?
Its an extreme example but it makes the point that we are all NOT born equal. GW,s next child will be born a millionare- the S.C kid might be born with a crack addiction.
The statistic is totally bogus. Thats my point.
Q ........... <hr /></blockquote>

Q, I'm not trying to be a smart alec but I did come from that background. I am what and where I am today because I made the decision to advance my own life. I never accepted or wanted any help from the government. Nothing any president or any other politician did, ever meant a hill of beans to me. There is not enough money in the world to buy someone else out of there own problems. Each individual has to make the decision to do something about their situation.

Hard work alone is not enough. An auto mechanic will not become a millionaire because of the market value of the services they perform. However, if they go to night school and learn machine shop so they can make a tool they invented to make all mechanics more profitable they will become a millionaire. Nothing has greater market value than innovation. Socialist societies remove incentives for innovation. Without innovation there is stagnation.

In our system, if you want prosperity, you can go out and get it no matter what position in life you start from. I am living proof of that.

catscradle
06-02-2005, 11:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> ... Socialist societies remove incentives for innovation. Without innovation there is stagnation.
<hr /></blockquote>
Tap-tap-tap.

When I was young and read about socialist theories I was all gung-ho about them, but the sad fact is they don't work just for the reason you stated above.

Deeman2
06-02-2005, 12:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> ... Socialist societies remove incentives for innovation. Without innovation there is stagnation.
<hr /></blockquote>
Tap-tap-tap.

When I was young and read about socialist theories I was all gung-ho about them, but the sad fact is they don't work just for the reason you stated above.
<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Almost all young people have that same liberal attitude but most outgrow it when they see the practical application of liberal policy. </font color>

Deeman

SpiderMan
06-02-2005, 01:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> ... Socialist societies remove incentives for innovation. Without innovation there is stagnation.
<hr /></blockquote>
Tap-tap-tap.

When I was young and read about socialist theories I was all gung-ho about them, but the sad fact is they don't work just for the reason you stated above.
<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Almost all young people have that same liberal attitude but most outgrow it when they see the practical application of liberal policy. </font color>
Deeman <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, it happens about the time they become productive enough to feel/fear the "minus" side of wealth redistribution (theft by democracy).

SpiderMan

Qtec
06-02-2005, 02:15 PM
C I know you are sincere and I basically agree with you.
What I do dispute is , that just because 1 out of every 423 Americana is a millionare,[ on paper] doesnt mean to say that the chances of becoming one is 423/1!

What I object to is that when people talk about the unemployed or people on benefit, they always point to the worst examples.
Q

Nightstalker
06-02-2005, 05:10 PM
Well that is no different than you talking about the segment of the population with the least chance to become millionaires. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

catscradle
06-03-2005, 08:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> ... Socialist societies remove incentives for innovation. Without innovation there is stagnation.
<hr /></blockquote>
Tap-tap-tap.

When I was young and read about socialist theories I was all gung-ho about them, but the sad fact is they don't work just for the reason you stated above.
<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Almost all young people have that same liberal attitude but most outgrow it when they see the practical application of liberal policy. </font color>
Deeman <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, it happens about the time they become productive enough to feel/fear the "minus" side of wealth redistribution (theft by democracy).

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Well, that is not what turned me off. I wish it would work and wouldn't mind high taxes if it did. If the Marxist ideal of "From each according to his capabilities, to each according to his need" worked, I'd be all for it. However, the fact is that without the capitalists system, about 20% of the population would probably be carrying the other 80% and nobody would want to take the garbage collectors job.

Chopstick
06-03-2005, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> C I know you are sincere and I basically agree with you.
What I do dispute is , that just because 1 out of every 423 Americana is a millionare,[ on paper] doesnt mean to say that the chances of becoming one is 423/1!

<font color="blue">I agree. There are some people that just don't have the attributes to achieve that level of success. There are also some who like their position in life and chose to remain there. That leaves the question of entitlement. What are they entitled to from those who work like dogs for decades to achieve success?

I do not believe that we should abandon the poor. Neither do I believe that we should subsidize their condition. I don't see where it helps. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for helping folks out, but nothing we do seems to work. </font color>

What I object to is that when people talk about the unemployed or people on benefit, they always point to the worst examples.

Q

<font color="blue">That is true and I am guilty of it myself. Now that you bring it to my attention I won't do it anymore. Liberal idealism is a neccessary part of any society and it needs to be balanced with conservative practicality. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>