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Cueless Joey
06-11-2002, 12:44 PM
We're playing 3 fouls in a row you lose 9 ball.
I break and miscue. Duh! Cueball flies off the table and nearly kills my opponent.
He takes the ball and breaks. Doesn't make a ball.
I shoot at the one and make it and then scratch.
He then says I have two fouls.
What's the call? I claim that the game started after he broke. Nobody in the poolhall knew how to rule it. The owner went on a limb and said I was on two but admitted he didn't know for sure.

Nostroke
06-11-2002, 12:50 PM
I say you are on 2- If the game started when he broke, who won the previous game where you broke? Nobody because you are still in the same game and you are on 2!

I am looking at this from a logic standpoint not the rulebook

Jay M
06-11-2002, 12:52 PM
depends on the rules you were playing. If you were playing cue fouls only, you were on one foul as the cue ball never made contact with the rack, thus the game never started.

If you were playing all ball fouls, then you were on two fouls as the cue leaving the table is a foul in any rule set.

note that cue ball fouls only is the rule most often played.

Jay M

Cueless Joey
06-11-2002, 12:53 PM
Great point NS.

Nostroke
06-11-2002, 12:58 PM
i dont think any rules start the game when the cue ball hits the rack, otherwise you could break from ahead of the line, hit the ball twice on the way and a few more things we all know are illegal.

Rod
06-11-2002, 01:03 PM
Joey, I'll say your on two because you didn't meet the break requirements. Which is either pocket a ball or drive 4 numbered balls to a rail.

Jay M
06-11-2002, 01:19 PM
Actually, it is NOT a foul to reach out and grab the cue ball preventing it from hitting the rack... you re-break, I know this one from a tournament.

Jay M

Nostroke
06-11-2002, 01:27 PM
Tournament directors are far from infallible- just show me any "official written rules" that permit that!

Cueless Joey
06-11-2002, 01:30 PM
Efren did this against Mizerak at the Pro-Tour Championship semi-finals years ago. I have the video. Scott Smith laughed at him and let him re-broke.

06-11-2002, 01:36 PM
Per Texas Express Rules:
You are on two fouls

Jay M
06-11-2002, 01:37 PM
You can also find a reference to it in Ewa Mataya Laurence (sp) book "idiot's guide to pool" she even specifically tells you in the breaking section to grab the cue as quick as you can if you miscue on the break.

Jay M

06-11-2002, 01:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Cueless Joey:</font><hr> We're playing 3 fouls in a row you lose 9 ball.
I break and miscue. Duh! Cueball flies off the table and nearly kills my opponent.
He takes the ball and breaks. Doesn't make a ball.
I shoot at the one and make it and then scratch.
He then says I have two fouls.
What's the call? I claim that the game started after he broke. Nobody in the poolhall knew how to rule it. The owner went on a limb and said I was on two but admitted he didn't know for sure.
<hr></blockquote>

if you're playing b.c.a. then there's no question; you're on 2.

3.8 cue ball on opening break " on the opening break, the game is considered to have commenced once the cue ball has been struck by the tip"

also, 3.9 states that "on the break shot, stopping or deflecting the cue ball after it has crossed the head string and prior to hitting the racked balls is considered a foul and loss of turn."

i don't know how that could be more clear.

dan

PoolFan
06-11-2002, 03:05 PM
houstondan quotes the proper BCA rules on this issue.

The attempted break is a foul once the cue ball is struck and crosses the headstring the game is considered begun.

06-11-2002, 03:15 PM
As per a situation I saw while playing in a recent tournamnet on the PLanet Pool circuit, you would be on two fouls.

Zach

Vagabond
06-11-2002, 04:13 PM
Howdy,
This rule came into practice around 1991-92( promoted by Texas Express).I thought that by this time every pool hall in USA knew this.By the way if u still get the chance to come to the table,it is your opponent`s responsibility to tell u,that you already had 2 fouls, before u take the shot.If he fails to do that, u do not loose the game even if u make another foul.Most recently I had seen a tournament( Arizona Womens Billiard Tour) where this player was warning the player who committed 2 fouls.But the other player acting as though she was not hearing it.Hence this player got up from the chair and raised her voice and said `` u had 2 fouls``. The offending player appeared annoyed.Then the other player reminded the offender that it is her responsibility to make sure that she heard.What do u do if your opponent is having ear phones and listening to music then do u go near him and shake him to inform him of his two previous fouls!!!!
Vagabond

Tom_In_Cincy
06-11-2002, 04:19 PM
Joey,

Why did he take the ball in hand, when you tried to perform a break? Because you fouled.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>://www.bca-pool.com/play/ 9 ball rules:
To be considered a legal break:

1. The breaker must strike the1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.
2. If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table.
3. If on the break shot, the breaker causes an object ball to jump off the table, it is a foul and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table. The object ball is not re-spotted (exception: if the object ball is the 9-ball, it is re-spotted).

For the game to be considered 'Started' (once again, from the BCA website General rules of play:

3.8 CUE BALL ON OPENING BREAK
The opening break shot is taken with cue ball in hand behind the head string. The object balls are positioned according to specific game rules. On the opening break, the game is considered to have commenced once the cue ball has been struck by the cue tip<hr></blockquote>

06-11-2002, 04:40 PM
Yep... if playing BCA rules you are indeed on 2 fouls. What surprises me is that since your opponent was clearly aware that you had fouled on the break he chose to break himself. If he was inclined towards going for a 3 foul win I would have expected him to take ball in hand... place the cue ball near the 1... softly thin the 1 with a bit of side to try and bring the cue ball up tight at the back of the pack. This would put have put you not only at real risk of going on 2 fouls but also increase his chances of defeating you with 3. ...Bob

Cueless Joey
06-11-2002, 04:53 PM
Hmm, I didn't that was an option. Thanks for the tip.

Chris Cass
06-12-2002, 12:36 AM
Joey,

If it was your break and didn't contact the rack at all. It's still your break. It's also not a foul because the game starts after the break. We need more information. I'm thinking you got the short end of the stick here.

If you hit the rack and popped off the table? That's a foul and your opponent gets ball in hand. The scratch on the one ball, is a given.

Regards,

C.C.

06-12-2002, 01:14 AM
guys/gals follow up question on 3 consecutive fouls. this confuses me. when fouling an opponent with first foul, then you shoot the next object balls let's say 3,4,5 and then safe him for the 2nd foul. is this considered consecutive foul for the 2nd time or not? or you have to hide the object/cue ball after each foul to make it "3 consecutive fouls"?

Rod
06-12-2002, 01:32 AM
Quote Artie, when fouling an opponent with first foul, then you shoot the next object balls let's say 3,4,5 and then safe him for the 2nd foul. is this considered consecutive foul for the 2nd time or not?

Yes it is Artie. It does not have to be three in a row.

06-12-2002, 05:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Rod:</font><hr> Quote Artie, when fouling an opponent with first foul, then you shoot the next object balls let's say 3,4,5 and then safe him for the 2nd foul. is this considered consecutive foul for the 2nd time or not?

Yes it is Artie. It does not have to be three in a row. <hr></blockquote>

Rod,

Thanks a lot! A lot of these foul thing is so confusing.

/ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Drake
06-12-2002, 06:17 AM
I think you have two fouls at this point in the game. If the your first miscue is not a foul, why is your opponent breaking?? In golf, once you start your final downswing...even if you don't hit the ball...it counts as a stroke. At least that's the way the rule book reads.

06-12-2002, 06:58 AM
Yea two fouls, but tell me what the guy did with the bih after your scratch? Probably somethin' nasty, huh :-( sid~~~not a 3 foul proponent, it ain't 9-ball pool to me

Vagabond
06-12-2002, 07:39 AM
Howdy,
It is a foul when the cue ball does not first contact the lowest numbered ball on the table.In this case it has to be one ball.I thought people had fights in bar rooms over the rules in 8 ball. Keep fighting and bring the game down to the level of bar room pool.Cheers
Vagabond